Farr = Evil?

[mholguin]

Not a designer, but a sailing enthusiast.

I grew up to believe that Farr was one of the top designers in the game, and still find it hard to read all the attacks (either to him or his bureau).

May I ask why?

I have no intention to start a flmaing, just curious...

[Wynand N]

best to ask the man himself.....

[Paul B]

Not a designer, but a sailing enthusiast.

I grew up to believe that Farr was one of the top designers in the game, and still find it hard to read all the attacks (either to him or his bureau).

May I ask why?

I have no intention to start a flmaing, just curious...

I think much has to do with jealousy. BFA has been at the undisputed top of the game for 20+ years.

Things have been said on this board about Farr building boats poorly (not true, they don't build), Farr specifying machining process of titanium ram ends (not true), Farr poorly designing CF structures (even if we don't know the root cause of the failure and don't know if it was built to a BFA spec at all).

All this stems from people not knowing how modern high performance yachts are designed and built. In many instances the designer is not contracted for the construction/materials details, that is often done by outside suppliers like SP Systems. The team's builder also makes certain decisions about the construction, often in search of lightening the structure. Look at some of the comments by people like Jason Carrington in the lead up to the VOR.

In fact, there are times when a designer is contracted to produce a linesplan with offsets, sailplan, keel and rudder drawings with offsets, and nothing else. The rest is done by other contractors and the builder. When something goes wrong the press only knows the name of the designer, not the name of the fellow who decided to minimize the secondary bonding to save a couple of kilos to go into the bulb.

Now if someone wants to mention that Farr might have missed the boat by not going for a bigger form stability design in this VOR they might have a point. On the other hand, we don't know if he had such a design and the teams chose the middle of the road choice. We do know that in previous W60/VOR60 Races BFA had options for more powerful boats, and some teams chose them (EF) and some did not (Silk Cut).

[RHough]

I think much has to do with jealousy. BFA has been at the undisputed top of the game for 20+ years.



Undisputed? LMAO

1983 AUSTRALIA II vs. LIBERTY
1987 STARS & STRIPES vs. KOOKABURRA III
1988 STARS & STRIPES vs. NEW ZEALAND
1992 AMERICA3 vs. IL MORO DI VENEZIA
1995 BLACK MAGIC vs. YOUNG AMERICA
2000 BLACK MAGIC vs. LUNA ROSA
2003 ALINGHI vs. BLACK MAGIC

Here are 7 boats in the last 20+ years than won the America's Cup, how many are BFA designs?

What game are you talking about? :)

Late edit:

Farr Designs:

1987 KIWI MAGIC
1988 NEW ZEALAND
1992 NEW ZEALAND CHALLENGE
1995 TAG HEUER
1999/2000 YOUNG AMERICA
2002/2003 ORACLE BMW RACING

[K4s]

Tall Poppy syndrome.When someone is at the top or near of their chosen game,cut em down quick,no other reason than they are good at what they do.

[RHough]

Tall Poppy syndrome.When someone is at the top or near of their chosen game,cut em down quick,no other reason than they are good at what they do.

I guess BFA didn't choose AC designs ... :)

No one can argue that Farr has done some very nice boats. In some classes, and under some rules, Farr boats are the cream of the crop. That doesn't mean every boat they design is the best. In 20 years they have come up with 6 losers and NO winners in AC design.

Every one of the Farr designs has failed to finish at least one leg of the VOR. In the past (when you had to sail the whole course) that would mean that 100% of the Farr boats would be DNF before the start of the 4th leg.

At or near the top? Undisputed top of the game? Not hardly.

[mholguin]

So, if being such a looser, how come he's is involved in so many top events? Why is he choosen?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, there is the design, the construction, the weather, the sails, the fittings, a million different pieces of hardware, the skipper, the tactics, the crews... so, design is not the only factor here, is it? Give me AMRO ONE, and maybe I would be finishing leg 1 just about now.

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.

[Doug Lord]

With the news of movistars severe leak due to failure of the bomb bay doors(AGAIN!) there is no doubt that the design concept ,engineering , building or all three is seriously flawed on the Farr boats.

[Windvang]

So, if being such a looser, how come he's is involved in so many top events? Why is he choosen?

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

[RHough]

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

Sparkman & Stephens ?

The Farr office is very good, they have had success under IOR, IMS and IRC rules. The Farr office Owned the Whitbread 60/ VO60 class. They have struggled with America's Cup designs (thought by many to be the ultimate design challenge) and they have failed with their VO70 designs.

Farr enjoys a great reputation, when committing $$$ to a new boat for ocean racing it would be foolish not to consider them. For years it was said "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM computers", it seems that the same thinking exists in ocean racing "Nobody ever got fired for choosing Farr to design the boat". After the spectacular failures in the VO70 associated with Farr, I think that people will look at other design offices.

[mholguin]

So if Farr is not the best design office (racing wise) which are the other contenders? Is there any office with so many wins, in so many classes on it's name?

Windvang please quote my complete sentence, it is misleading the way you did. The complete sentence is:

From my biased, uninformed, and barely educated point of view, I think Farr is one of the top design offices. Is it the best? Don't think so. Is it the worst? not quite. But is it ranked amongst the best in the business? I guess it is. I guess I think I understand now. We are all humans after all.


Thanks.

[Windvang]

Windvang please quote my complete sentence, it is misleading the way you did. The complete sentence is:

Thanks.

Not intentional, edited

[Earl Boebert]

Well, I don't know about Farr vs. other contemporary designers, but certainly historically Sparkman and Stephens and (further back) Herreshoffs have records to inspire awe.

As an aside, as someone who spent nigh on to 40 years participating in, leading, and picking through the wreckage of engineering projects dealing with potentially lethal technology, I must admit to being totally unimpressed with the "nobody's in charge" structure of the VOR efforts. Color me mossback green, but all this "I just do my part and I don't know about the rest" attitude looks like a first class way to engineer a fatal accident when pushing bleeding edge technology into a high-risk environment.

Cheers,

Earl

[mholguin]

Not intentional, edited


:D No problem, just want to see an objective discussion to go on...

Thanks Man!!!

[K4s]

I guess BFA didn't choose AC designs ... :)

No one can argue that Farr has done some very nice boats. In some classes, and under some rules, Farr boats are the cream of the crop. That doesn't mean every boat they design is the best. In 20 years they have come up with 6 losers and NO winners in AC design.

Every one of the Farr designs has failed to finish at least one leg of the VOR. In the past (when you had to sail the whole course) that would mean that 100% of the Farr boats would be DNF before the start of the 4th leg.

At or near the top? Undisputed top of the game? Not hardly.
Jeez dude look around,sailing doesnt just stop at the AC.
Its pretty simple really,If Farr was no good he wouold be in the same boat as the american auto industry,hes not sooooooooooooooooo..................

[Paul B]

Undisputed? LMAO

1983 AUSTRALIA II vs. LIBERTY
1987 STARS & STRIPES vs. KOOKABURRA III
1988 STARS & STRIPES vs. NEW ZEALAND
1992 AMERICA3 vs. IL MORO DI VENEZIA
1995 BLACK MAGIC vs. YOUNG AMERICA
2000 BLACK MAGIC vs. LUNA ROSA
2003 ALINGHI vs. BLACK MAGIC

Here are 7 boats in the last 20+ years than won the America's Cup, how many are BFA designs?

What game are you talking about? :)

Late edit:

Farr Designs:

1987 KIWI MAGIC
1988 NEW ZEALAND
1992 NEW ZEALAND CHALLENGE
1995 TAG HEUER
1999/2000 YOUNG AMERICA
2002/2003 ORACLE BMW RACING

That's funny.

I say BFA has been at the pointy end of the design field for 20 years, and you say he isn't because his designs never won the AC.

The people in the know believe that his designs have been the quickest a couple of times. The fact that the teams didn't win was the fault of the designer? Kiwi Magic (Farr, Davidson, Holland) was considered by ALL to be the fastest all around 12 in 1987, and their record showed that. They were dominant during the trials. Why didn't they win? Not due to a slow boat!

There was a huge bidding war for the Young America boats by the top teams after 2000 due to the tremendous speed they showed. Prada paid a huge amount to get those boats, after they were the challenger. In trials they found the Farr boats were quicker than theirs! Was it Farr's fault they didn't win? If so, why was there also a huge bidding war for Farr's services after that edition?

We could even point out that the little red boat was the quickest challenger in '92. Politics and head games led to the team's undoing. However, they would have been routed 5-nil if they had made it through to the finals against the USA. But second quickest isn't really a failure, is it? I suppose in the AC it is.

Finally, in 2003 the Oracle boat was easily quick enough to win the cup. Trade in Coutts and the boys onto that boat for 3 months of training and they would have had the cup. Is if Farr's fault Larry didn't win the bidding war for the Kiwi team?


If you're going to troll you'll have to do better than that. Please tell us what desing firm has dominated grand prix racing as Farr has done for the past 20 years?

[Paul B]

Sparkman & Stephens ?

The Farr office is very good, they have had success under IOR, IMS and IRC rules. The Farr office Owned the Whitbread 60/ VO60 class. They have struggled with America's Cup designs (thought by many to be the ultimate design challenge) and they have failed with their VO70 designs.

Farr enjoys a great reputation, when committing $$$ to a new boat for ocean racing it would be foolish not to consider them. For years it was said "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM computers", it seems that the same thinking exists in ocean racing "Nobody ever got fired for choosing Farr to design the boat". After the spectacular failures in the VO70 associated with Farr, I think that people will look at other design offices.


Please tell us all the grands prix race winners designed by S&S in the past 20 years. That won't take long.

Farr has been dominant in nearly every major big boat class during that time. Did S&S in their heyday dominate like Farr has, for this period of time? Sure they did some great boats for the period, but did they dominate worldwide events? I don't think so.

S&S won a lot of ACs. If the field had been open and level they probably would have won less. Some of the best designers in the US were frozen out by the cup holders at the time.

If there is ever another VOR I would bet that at least half the fleet will be from BFA's boards. Maybe not your syndicate's boat, maybe not even mine, but if you have to place the bet BFA will surely be the best bet once again.

[RHough]

That's funny.

I say BFA has been at the pointy end of the design field for 20 years, and you say he isn't because his designs never won the AC.



What you said was "BFA has been at the undisputed top of the game for 20+ years."

All I had to do was disupte it ... :)

Take a chill pill and read what I post.

In Grand Prix classes under 3 different rules BFA probably does have the best record for more than 10 of the last 20 years (1978-1986? what happened there?)

Never said they were bad, just that they aren't perfect. They do well in some arenas and not so well in others. That is a fact.

All your support of BFA won't change the facts.

[RHough]

Please tell us all the grands prix race winners designed by S&S in the past 20 years. That won't take long.

Farr has been dominant in nearly every major big boat class during that time. Did S&S in their heyday dominate like Farr has, for this period of time? Sure they did some great boats for the period, but did they dominate worldwide events? I don't think so.

S&S won a lot of ACs. If the field had been open and level they probably would have won less. Some of the best designers in the US were frozen out by the cup holders at the time.

If there is ever another VOR I would bet that at least half the fleet will be from BFA's boards. Maybe not your syndicate's boat, maybe not even mine, but if you have to place the bet BFA will surely be the best bet once again.

LMAO You slam me for a post that complemented Farr?

Dorade

Finisterre

:cool:

[Paul B]

LMAO You slam me for a post that complemented Farr?

Dorade

Finisterre

:cool:

Dorade and Finisterre were designed within the last 20 years? Are you sure?

[usa2]

S & S designed a whole bunch of successful ocean racers, but that was a while back.
Farr probably had the most successful designs out there for the better part of the last 20 years, but today they certainly are not the top ocean racer OR AC designer. That doesnt mean you should discredit them. However, I dont think people are criticizing them solely based on their boats performances. A lot of it has to do with them denying the problems and not accepting the blame where it is there fault.

S & S was the most successful designer from the 40's to the mid-late 70's, Farr was from about that time period to the mid 90's. Today, R/P is the top ocean racing designer probably, while the AC scene is questionable.

[gggGuest]

> (1978-1986? what happened there?)

Farr gave up race boats in disgust 'cause Stephens and his mates kept changing the rules to make their lead poisoned pointy ended rocking cradles competitive...

[RHough]

Dorade and Finisterre were designed within the last 20 years? Are you sure?

That is not the way you asked the question. :P