Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4 [Archive]

Doug Lord

02-28-2006, 10:31 PM

The concept of a Peoples Foiler is an exciting one. Take a look at the M4 project being developed by Simon Maguire.
The M4 concept
Address:http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ Changed:8:52 PM on Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Eric Sponberg and I are developing the aeroSKIFF™ project.(SEE DRAWINGS UNDER POST# 15 BELOW)
Both groups are looking at the idea of a foiler that could appeal to a wider group of people than the extraordinary Moth foiler-the inspiration behind both projects.
---- The original aeroSKIFF 16 monofoiler is serving as a test bed for numerous ideas that may be incorporated in the final version aeroSKIFF 14 designed by Eric Sponberg and myself with all structural engineering by Eric Sponberg. So far we have not been able to raise the funds to proceed very far so things are moving slowly-though we continue the search. The 16 is having major modifications made now to help sort out various concepts.New pictures will be posted on www.monofoiler.com when the mods are complete and then later sailing pictures when we're satisfied with the results.
So here are some details of the aeroSKIFF excerpted from our presentation:
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Marketing
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We feel the boat should be easy to sail by an experienced sailor(including windsurfers and kite guys) that graduates from one of our Foiler Flying Centers the first of which would be located at the Calema Windsurf facility on Meritt Island, Florida. The owner is a champion windsurfer who runs the Gaastra sail R&D shop as well as a school and shop for windsurfing equipment. He is an experienced ,very knowledgeable sailor and thinks a well designed aeroSKIFF would compliment his business.We feel the key to making a successful foiler marketing campaign will begin with a Foiler Flying Center school where graduates can rent boats and experience foiling under the guidance of knowledgeble instructors. In fact, one idea that we favor is to make the sale of an aeroSKIFF contingent on completion of the foiler course. Impulse sales of this kind of boat would probably be counter-productive. Calema believes in the school concept as critical for their business as it is now and as it would be with the aeroSKIFF. Most customers will welcome this; we will insist on it.
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There is a lot more to our plan but that is one of the critical parts to building a foiler business.
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TARGET SPECIFICATIONS / aeroSKIFF 14 / based on 250lb. max crew-drawings in post 15 based on 220lb. max crew.
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1) LOA 14'8" Beam 12'(drawings in post 15 show 10' beam-beam may be increased to reduce buoyancy pod size and to help make crew weight range wider)
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2) Target ready to fly boat weight: 120 lb.s
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3) Max Crew 250lb.s ; target minimum crew 120lb. -----------------------------------------------
4) Flying weight: 370lb.s
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5) SA 143 sq.ft. square topped, camber induced , main only, unstayed mast ,extended luff, modified wishbone, midboom sheeting.
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6) Standard main foil area 1.68 sq.ft.
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7) Mainfoil loading @ 80% 176lb. sq. ft.
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8) Rudder foil area 50% mainfoil area.
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9) SA/mainfoil area: 85sq. ft. per sq.ft. foil area.
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10) "Wing Loading"( all up weight divided by SA) =2.58lb.s per sq.ft. SA.
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11) Draft ,off foils; foils extended= 3.75'-variable.
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Features
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1) High speed rig with sail design by Barry Spanier; mast design and engineering by Eric Sponberg.Forward third of sail comes completely down to the deck; the boom is a modified version of a wishbone boom with a cross member just forward of mid length that takes the mainsheet. The sheet is led to a traveller on the forward beam allowing the sheet to come from forward. A twin vang set up will be used should a vang be required.
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2) Foils retract to facilitate beach launching.
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3) Sliding single bench seat; slides easily and contains ballast compartment for one design class weight equalization system.Motion control system that prevents runaway seat in adverse situations.
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4) Standard foils optimized for low speed takeoff; optional tip extentions; optional high speed foils.
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5) Buoyancy pods approx 1.56 cu' per side; larger optional pods available for training.(see approx 3 cu. ft. pods illustrated in the sketches in post #15)
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6)Rudder: unique design slides up and down in daggerboard style slot; stepped rudder flap designed to allow variable rudder area between non foiling and foiling; Target is to have rudder throw and sensitivity the same on or off
foils.
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7) Double ended hull facilitates earlist 0 to takeoff; facillitates pitch change to allow early takeoff though foil system may not require this.
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8) Trampoline each side with heel cutouts allowing quick, secure seat movement.
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9) Foils designed to take loads imposed by jumping which can be initiated by twisting hiking stick(s).System bypasses wand but still utilizes forward /rear foil interconnect.
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10) Variable main foil "gear shift" angle of incidence adjustment. From "set it and forget it" to fine tuning main foil drag.
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11) Exceptionally wide crew weight range ; one design cass races wil be sailed at the 250 lb.s crew weight. Speed runs will be able to be made with lower crew weight as long as RM is addressed.
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12) Wand controlled altitude with height adjustment. Set it and forget it or tweak it. Unique averaging wand system to improve choppy water response including fore and aft foil interconnect and wand bypass for smoother flying and better jumps.
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Jumping is an important part of this foiler design because we think it will add to the value of the boat and to the fun of flying this foiler.

tspeer

02-28-2006, 10:51 PM

You've missed the most important performance specification for a foiler: minimum wind speed for takeoff with an average (or maximum) crew weight. This, more than anything else, will determine the popularity of the craft. This number should drive the sail area, foil loading, foil span loading, etc. Feature 4 doesn't cut it. You should be designing to an actual requirement.

Doug Lord

02-28-2006, 11:04 PM

You're right I missed mentioning it; it is a major consideration for this design. Early take off is critically important for this type of foiler. What we've done is show specifications that will allow the boat to meet or exceed the charateristics of the Moth vs a vs early takeoff while having a high maximum crew weight with a wide crew weight range. We start with that(what we know works well) and then experiment with foil size on the prototype.

Nobody

03-01-2006, 12:10 AM

Sounds great.

I will follow your development closely. I would like to be able to foil but am too heavy for a Moth. When is it likely to be available? How much is it likely to cost? Where should I send the money?

Nobody

Paul B

03-01-2006, 01:38 PM

When will you post drawings of this new 14 foot design? This board is about Boat Design, not Raising Capital.

How much money are you trying to raise, and what ROI are you promising?

What stage are the mods on your nono-foiler at? When was the last time it was in the water, and when will it be back in the water proving your theories? What is the total time it has sailed to date, and of that time how much time has been spent foiling (hull clear of the water)? What is the longest time/distance it has foiled without touching down?

Doug Lord

03-01-2006, 08:10 PM

NB, the information presented here about the two Peoples Foiler projects is intended to show those interested what the only two one design foiler projects that I know of are up to and in the case of the aeroSKIFF™ to present fairly detailed information so that the thinking behind the boat and the concepts involved are a little clearer. We aren't presenting information here to try to sell boats or to raise money -just to provide an overview of our thinking and that of Simon Maguire with the M4 to those excited about the phenomenol accomplishments of the International Moth but for one reason or another not interested in that class. These two projects show that maybe-down the line- there is hope for the rest of us to be able to experience the monofoiler revolution. There may be other projects as well which I will present here as soon as they come to my attention.
If Eric can get the images scanned and find the time he will post at least a sideview of the aeroSKIFF™.

Neverbehind

03-01-2006, 08:46 PM

How much is this going to cost, and can it take rough weather (3+ foot waves) without having to worry about the foils being damaged?

Doug Lord

03-01-2006, 09:07 PM

Those conditions should present no problem to a well designed boat.
A new Internatinal Moth ready to fly is about 12,000US+ shipping. Depending on level of production our boat should come in between that and $15,000 US as a very preliminary educated guesstimate.

usa2

03-01-2006, 09:36 PM

aeroSKIFF™ -why do you patent or trademark everything you do? In the sailing "industry" if you can call it that, there is not much of a point in it...

K4s

03-01-2006, 11:37 PM

You want to design a 14 foot single person,unstayed rig,wishbone boom,camber induced sail type of craft that can be jumped(landings are a different story again)and call it what,oh I know....Windsurfer

carlos reynoso

03-02-2006, 10:41 AM

I'm kind of new to boating, having sailed a Laser owned by a friend for the last year. I'm 20 now and I'm in a local technical college.

If this reference to a People's Foiler is meant to indicate that the boat will be designed and priced for regular guy like me, why do you have it priced at $14-15,000? It's very difficult to imagine a guy like me being able to afford this boat unless the Powerball Jackpot landed in my lap.

I was looking at new boats the other day and was really taken by the Vector. They can be purchased for $8000 which is more than I can probably spend. $15,000 is out of the question.

Carlos

Doug Lord

03-02-2006, 03:17 PM

Carlos, prices will come down as production grows.In the meantime ,if you're willing to do the work you can build your own first class foiler Moth for $7-8000 including the best in the world Fastacraft foils.It is a proven design , one of the fastest sailboats under 20' -see the posts 88,89,90 in the Foiler 1 GP thread for some idea of cost. In addition, people like Steve Clark are getting into helping guys pull together their own boats and along with help from Phil Stevenson and John Ilett you should have loads of help available. You can also consider a second hand boat available mostly in Europe or Australia. Google the Australian Moth site and check out the forum. Good Luck!

Raggi_Thor

03-03-2006, 06:10 AM

It's great, I like it :-)

Chris Ostlind

03-03-2006, 12:18 PM

Interestingly enough, this was just posted on the front page of today's Sailing Anarchy, a publication that is one of Doug Lord's favorite justifications for putting an overly complex boat into the marketplace under the marketing misnomer of a People's Foiler. This is a rather refreshing and articulate view from a regular guy who is searching for a boat that makes sense...

" ...To increase the membership you have to allow people to imagine themselves in the boats themselves- not scared away from the boats by complicity, money, decorating (or lack therof). So we move onto CL and take a look at all the pricey Dinghys. What could be more unappealing to the "cottage" boater than a $15,000 Club 420? Can you not buy a jetski or skidoo for less? Jesus Christ. Try making boats for the regular family and you may actually someday gain the massive middle markets of the regular consumer which is where success in sailing can only be found."

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/

This point of view is obviously supported by the SA publisher, or you'd not likely see it on the front page as a hosted rant. It would get put up in one of the Forums, for sure, but he obviously believes that this point of view is powerfully grounded in the sailing community's need to produce nicely detailed, simple, affordable boats. More folks should be able to get out on the water and get sailing in a boat that will be easy to drive with very solid returns of fun and enjoyment for the minimum dollar spent.

Chris

Eric Sponberg

03-05-2006, 10:12 AM

RHough

03-05-2006, 11:31 AM

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 11:53 AM

usa2

03-05-2006, 12:02 PM

why would you want to jump a foiler? it would slow down upon impact(reentry) with the water. Not to manage the fatigue the foils would eventually suffer from due to repeated smashing back into the water.

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 12:05 PM

Because it has the potential to be loads of fun!

usa2

03-05-2006, 12:17 PM

If people start trying to jump these things, pitchpoling(both normally and bow over stern) will become a major problem. The only way you are controlling the pitch of the hull is through the foils. Once they become airborne, you have given away any control you may have had, and if you didnt launch perfectly, you are screwed.

Though you are right, that may appeal to a percentage of the population.

RHough

03-05-2006, 12:20 PM

Foilers should be able to jump well in much lighter air and flatter comditions then does a Windsurfer and in conditions between more or less 8-15knots of wind the foiler should be faster. And the foiler is a much easier and more comfortable boat to sail and to learn to sail(and jump) than a windsurfer.In addition, the foiler has a MUCH wider crew weight range without having to change rigs or hulls.
As to cost : if a company like Yamaha put it's resources behind a Peoples Foiler there would be a good chance of having boats available in the price range of a PWC which is something that could happen should gas prices continue to rise.

You are planning to have enough control throw to jump the foiler in flat water? That would be very cool.

I could argue that sailboards are easy to learn to sail, my experience is that high performance boats like I14's (I've never sailed a Moth) had a steeper learning curve than a sailboard. Sailing at wave jumping, surfing speeds may well turn the balance back to the foiler.

That the foiler has a wider wind and weight range is moot in the recreational market. Like bicycles, people will buy a board and rig that suits the "normal" conditions for their sailing area. A majority of recreational sailboarders don't own a second rig.

I could be very wrong, but the people that buy PWC's don't strike me as the kind of people that would ever even consider a sailing craft of any sort. I cannot see Pamela Anderson types on foils, PWC's yes, foils no.

Roto-moulded beach cats and sailboards fit the warm water rec sailor quite well. They don't give a hoot about how fast or how well it points, easy to sail and fun are the requirements. Hobie Waves with blown-out sails are perfect for resort boats. You couldn't capsize one if you tried. They sail just well enough that you can feel like you are sailing fast and coming back through the surf is a hoot. People line up to sail them.

I don't see a foiler or any other non-idiot proof boat getting much of the rec-sailor market. When you move into high performance sailing, you lose the rec-sail market and have to compete with established classes. People that are already convinced that $15,000 for a toy boat is reasonable.

I sincerely wish you luck, I just don't see it.

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 01:30 PM

DanishBagger

03-05-2006, 02:41 PM

To me it seems that these foilers are directed towards the same people that buy kiteboards. It seems that most of those are at the beginning of their thirties, well-educated (good income), and like something "wild" (It could have been me, I actually considered one of those, but decided that I want to be able to have the feel of a real deck under my feet and be able to go potholing in it. And to persuade my gf to have some fun with me).

If they knew about these things, I'm sure it could sell.

Even though I'm building a "real" boat (albeit a very small one), I, for one, wouldn't mind paying that sum of money for a toy. Heck, it's still helluvalot cheaper than buying a cigarette-boat (not that I would want one of those).

I definately think there's a market for these things, but it's certainly not a "people's foiler". More like the "Pre-midlife crisis toy for rich kids".

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 02:50 PM

Thanks ,DB. But I wouldn't focus too much on the $15,000 price which is a low production guesstimate. Whether the new Peoples Foiler is an aeroSKIFF™, M4 or some other version many things could affect pricing including the involvement of a large company. Time will tell.....

DanishBagger

03-05-2006, 02:54 PM

True, Doug - Hopefully it will indeed become relatively cheap.

I'm thinking that if it could be priced at under DKK 60.000 (just a tad under 10K U$) it will sell here.

RHough

03-05-2006, 02:57 PM

I don't know the statisics on windsurfers or what's happening in other area's of the country. But I do know that at the Calema site in Merritt Island ,Florida 15-30 windsurfers sail on any given weekend.
You said:"They don't give a hoot about how fast or how well it points.." Well, these people are only interested in sailing in 12-15 or above for the most part though a very few will go "sailing" in lighter conditions.. For the most part the people that sail at this site are totally performance -and speed- oriented.
You said:"..people will buy a board and rig that suits the "normal" conditions for their sailing area." Perhaps but not the vast majority of boardsailors at this location: they have a quiver of rigs and usually more than one board.
The majority of people who sail windsurfer's at this location spend thousands on the sport-I'd bet that well over half of them have more than 10 grand invested in their equipment.
The other group that frequents this site is 10-15 beachcats from the Hobie fleet(that is now mostly Blades, Nacra's and F18's). These people are speed freaks for sure and ripe for becoming foiler jockey's where they would achieve cat speeds in less wind with a lighter boat and be able to jump as well.
My point is that if we can combine foiling, jumping and ease of sailing in the right package it is very likely to takeoff big time with performance excitement/fun oriented crowd-a crowd that will only grow as the energy disaster deepens.

In SF there are a similar number of hard core boarders, both sail and kite. if you go to sites that have speed inducing conditions you will see exactly what you describe.

Now go to places with more normal (+/-10 knots) conditions where the PWC crowd and sail in swim suit (rather than wet suit)crowd and water skiers hang out. That's where the mass market is. The full flotation BIC boards etc.

The foiler concept is aimed at the lunatic fringe of sailing (as are sinker boards, and the previous foilers). Note that the Wave has died, while the non-foil Windrider is still on the market. I've seen middle aged couples sailing Windriders of the beach here in BC. In the summer months the wind speed is 6-10 on good days, yet the sailing centre is packed every weekend, skiffs, dinghies, cats, canoes etc. A multi hundred sailor market and I've never seen even one foiler (of any sort). Conditions that suit foilers are winter conditions here, frost-bite only $15,000 foilers would be a very tough sell.

You need to look at potential market; Warm water sailing and % of days that the wind would support foiling. That severely limits the market areas. I'd be surprised if 20% of US and Canadian sites have the combination of conditions that the foilers need to be a choice for Joe Average. From that 20% of Joe's that might consider a foiler, what % would consider spending $15,000? 10-15%? Of those with $15,000 budgets for toys (that is what rec sailing is) how many will choose a boat that has no place to sun-bathe over a beach cat? At least with a Cat you can imagine Pamela Anderson lounging on the tramp and handing you a beer. The foiler does not allow that fantasy. Assuming a 100,000 sailor market; 20,000 have sites that might work, 3000 have $15,000 to spend. These people are not innovators, they might want to be the first to have a new PWC model or the first new beach cat ... how many want to be the first to show up and let the world watch them crash and burn while learning to sail a foiler? They WILL get laughed at, they don't like that. So MAYBE 5% of your 3000 will consider a foiler. That is 150 boats in a 100,000 customer market, for a 0.15 % market share.

Yamaha, Bic, anyone that sells mass market watercraft is not likely to back a new toy with a 0.15% potential market share. Particularly in light of the Tri-Foiler and Wave failures. You are having a hard time convincing us that the foiler is a new and better concept, try convincing someone that will only hear, Sailboat, $15,000, and Hydrofoil.

You've picked a steep hill to climb.

Once again, I wish you luck. I truley do.

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 04:20 PM

Randy, I'm afraid I don't think that some of your core assumptions above are very accurate-but I appreciate the input. For instance, I'm behind the aeroSKIFF concept along with Eric and I can assure you that the boat is not aimed at the "Lunatic fringe of sailors". Anybody that can sail a Sunfish, Laser , Hobie 16 or Hobie Wave(not Rave) is our target market. The conditions you described are conditions in which the aeroSKIFF™ will foil! The great probability is that the pricing will be substantially lower than my guestimate above and I wouldn't put too much weight on that level of pricing in trying to analyze the concept's potential. See my last post under the Foiler 1 GP thread for more on the differences between the Rave and Hobie multifoiler's and the new two-foil monofoilers.
And speaking of Pamela Anderson and tramp space look again at Eric's drawings(plus 1' each side). And at this: is this Pamela Anderson? ;)
robosan.jpg
http://www.moth-sailing.org/pictures/singapore/robosan.jpg
Because if it is she's sailing on a foiler Moth that has far less capacity than an aeroSKIFF...
Believe it or not the technology in this area of sailing is moving quickly-if it's not possible this week it will be next week-mainly,at this point, due to the Moth pioneers but also due the people worldwide that are working to bring monofoiling to the People.

RHough

03-05-2006, 05:27 PM

Randy, I'm afraid I don't think that some of your core assumptions above are very accurate-but I appreciate the input.

By lunatic fringe I was being kind. I like lunatics, some people even consider me to be one. By lunatic fringe, I refer to the folk that are out screaming back and forth on sinker boards while the folk on shore (and non-sailors) think they have lost their minds. Adrenaline junkies is a better term.

How will the foiler sail below foiling speeds? The tri-foiler is an anchor below foiling speed, tri-foilers and tow boats are almost as much a cliche as harleys and pick-up trucks. :)

You might have a winner if the boat is still fun to sail in non-foiling conditions.

Another option would be to make the foiling ability an add-on option. The base boat and the foiler in non-foiling conditions should still be interesting and the adrenaline junkies would have the added fun of foiling.

Compare the two photos. Try to sell the idea of a foiler to your wife or girlfrind. Hell try to sell yourself a foiler. :)

foilr

03-05-2006, 09:39 PM

I don't want to rain on your parade too much, but making a foiler jump is a very bad idea.

Sure it might look spectacular - it is spectacular. A Moth leaving the water is also dangerous and could cause serious injury and significant damage.

Ask Ned Dally, who almost lost a leg in a nosedive of a conventional Moth 2 years ago. Launching a hydrofoil at 2-3 times the speed, from a height, and nose-diving in half the time is not a good idea.

Ask a hydrofoil Moth sailor on their thoughts on side-stays before you get too starry-eyed about foilers jumping out of the water.

http://http://scott.projectsomewhere.com/img/1/6986,534,800,80.jpg

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 09:55 PM

Safe jumping is not a proven capability as of yet but we believe it is possible to intentionally jump and re-enter safely. Whether or not it will work is still an open question that we are going to investigate thoroughly. Moths are not designed to intentionally jump and if they accidentally jump when using a wand the nature of the wand system allows the main foil flap to go to full up which creates maximum downforce. When the boat re-enters with the flap in that position it can be sucked down hard-and dangerously. Our system bypasses the wand for the period of the jump so that the foil is lifting at re-entry. And our foils and control systems are designed specifically to do this. Big difference and much different result I hope.

Nobody

03-05-2006, 09:56 PM

Here are some of the drawings for the Aeroskiff that Doug and I have developed so far.

As I mentioned on the Foiler 1GP thread, technically, the boat can be built and it will work. The final performance numbers and production cost will be answered by the prototype program. I don't think we can definitely promise anything at this stage, but from my point of view, the concept holds a lot of promise.

Eric

The pictures look good. Thanks for the information. I have a few questions.

1.Is the mast unsupported/cantilevered or are there stays? It looks to be a long way to the front and the angle for the forestay would be limited. Making it cantilevered does complicate the internal structure of the hull a little bit but does eliminate the side stays. What are you thinking?

2. The weight of the boat is quoted at 120lbs. This is about 50kg. Does this include everything except the crew? I would have thought that the boat is going to be a little bit heavier than that. Assuming that the weight of a moth ready to go is about 25kg and scaling by (14/11)^3 whould give a weight of about 50kg. The light moth hulls are relatively fragile and are very high tech yet the construction materials you will use will need to be similar to achieve the weight you propose.

3. The mainsheet dosent look quite right. The sheet is a long way forward and will need to put a lot of load into the boom to keep the leech from twisting off a lot. Moving the sheet to the aft cross beam from the current position is likely to be much better.

I understand that it is very much the early stages of design and I have put these comments there to give you something to think about.

Nobody

usa2

03-05-2006, 10:03 PM

Doug,
Boats are not supposed to jump. Sure, they should be able to survive the landing, but we have all seen what happens when they dont. (Skandia, Konica Minolta, as very large examples. And they didnt even completely leave the water). Now, even if your hull and foils survive impact, what about the crew? Water is not soft, and if these foilers are as fast as you claim them to be, even landing in the water is likely to cause injury. If you hit any part of the boat at speed, you will probably be seriously injured. And jumping will be slow, so why even bother with it. It has no value, other than amusement.

Doug Lord

03-05-2006, 10:43 PM

NB- thanks for the comments.
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1) the mast is unstayed-we don't like wires at the potential speeds this thing is capable of and cerainly not with jumping in the mix. The sliding seat(s) are instead of a trapeze for that same reason. On top of that Eric is one of the foremost authorities on unstayed carbon masts-see www.sponbergyachtdesign.com
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2)the boat target weight is 120lb.'s with a 250lb. crew. The boat is not a scaled up Moth and we think we can make the weight-but we do have some leeway while still maintaining max performance.
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3) The mainsheet is sheeted to a cross member on the wishbone, as mentioned in the text above ,then led to a traveler on the forward cross. Much easier to sail a singlehander with the mainsheet leading from forward and well clear of the dual extension tillers..May allow us to get away w/o a vang.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2, amusement is pricey these days and if we make jumping work like we both think it can then you'll have more amusement for the same price.
This isn't just starry eyed nonsense -we really do believe it can be done.
You're in good company though:regarding jumping a two foil monofoiler a noted foiler pioneer told me he thought I'd gone off my rocker-and then in his next breath said that: "..of course a monofoiler on just two foils won't work..."-- this was SIX (6) years ago. I don't always listen to my elders.....

usa2

03-05-2006, 11:02 PM

Of course it can be done, I wasn't saying it couldn't. I just dont see any value in it. If you market it as saying it can be jumped easily, someone will try it and end up seriously hurting themselves. Then you've probably got a lawsuit on your hands.

mattotoole

03-06-2006, 12:01 AM

Interestingly enough, this was just posted on the front page of today's Sailing Anarchy, a publication that is one of Doug Lord's favorite justifications for putting an overly complex boat into the marketplace under the marketing misnomer of a People's Foiler. This is a rather refreshing and articulate view from a regular guy who is searching for a boat that makes sense...

" ...To increase the membership you have to allow people to imagine themselves in the boats themselves- not scared away from the boats by complicity, money, decorating (or lack therof). So we move onto CL and take a look at all the pricey Dinghys. What could be more unappealing to the "cottage" boater than a $15,000 Club 420? Can you not buy a jetski or skidoo for less? Jesus Christ. Try making boats for the regular family and you may actually someday gain the massive middle markets of the regular consumer which is where success in sailing can only be found."

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/

This point of view is obviously supported by the SA publisher, or you'd not likely see it on the front page as a hosted rant. It would get put up in one of the Forums, for sure, but he obviously believes that this point of view is powerfully grounded in the sailing community's need to produce nicely detailed, simple, affordable boats. More folks should be able to get out on the water

Chris

Chris,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and this point of view -- to a point. In fact I think this is a good thread topic of its own.

But what Doug and Eric are doing is totally new. Where would our sport be if no one ever did that?

foilr

03-06-2006, 12:33 AM

the nature of the wand system allows the main foil flap to go to full up which creates maximum downforce. When the boat re-enters with the flap in that position it can be sucked down hard-and dangerously.

While the flap would be up when the foil breaks the surface, it's not the flap that causes a hard crash.

Having the main foil break the surface results in the lift disappearing instantly. The main foil stops the boat as it trips on re-entry, the still lifting rudder pitches the transom over the bow, the now negative angle of attack on the foil and lack of flow reinforce the dive.

Being high enough to lift the main foil out of the water also means the boat has little or no rudder left to steer with, therefore no control at high speed and no way to steer out of the problem.

Interestingly easing the sails in this situation only unloads the boat and compounds the situation.

If your solution can cope with re-entry, I'd like to know more details.

Doug Lord

03-06-2006, 07:04 AM

On any wand altitude control system as the boat approaches the surface(except in certain extreme wave conditions) the wand will be or should be trying to bring the boat back down unless you're using our system which allows the skipper to bypass the wand input to the mainfoil.If the mainfoil leaves the water with the flap up it will re-enter the same way and would very likely cause the boat to "trip" over the mainfoil. Our system(which controls both the mainfoil and rudder foil flaps) is designed to allow controlled powerfull takeoffs with low impact controlled re-entry. We think it will work and I personally will do the testing. We know the boat will take off well-and we think we have re-entry figured - testing will tell for sure.

Chris Ostlind

03-06-2006, 11:30 AM

Hi Matt,

I've never been disparaging of the introduction of a boat of this type. What I have been negative about is the overwhelming hype surrounding a product that is being pushed forward as a boat for the masses, a "People's Foiler" as Doug likes to call it, while the genre is decidedly narrow in appeal, as well as application. The article I posted from the Sailing Anarchy front page was to serve as an effective counterpoint to Doug's incessant fluff on the subject in which he repeatedly tried to use the SA forum postings as substantiation for his glow. Keep in mind that this isn;t the only glow that Doug has currently fomenting in his head about boats. Look around at the postings and you;ll see what I mean. I think the recent, front page, SA article successfully trumped that posture.

It's good to develop new and interesting boat types. I applaud the two guys who are doing that with this boat design. What I don't think they (and the use of they in this context probably means Doug a whole lot more than Eric) have done is credibly evaluate the so-called marketing position against the realistic potential of the product as a marketable boat for the everyday guy. In this case, the fluff has driven the reality to more than an acceptable level. That view is shared by others who have contributed here, so it's not an isolated case of one guy taking a lousy posture on the issue just to be contrary.

Doug seems so surprised that the masses aren't just lining-up with drool on their chins waiting for his next revelation about the boating industry. When one puts a new product in front of knowledgeable observers, one is going to get a vast set of replies and opinions. It's incumbent upon one to take them all in and pay very close attention to those that do not agree with the hyped position. The dissenting opinions are typically founded in a stream of logic that has not been considered by the proponents while they play-off the "brilliant conceptualization".

Big boat companies spend large amounts of money to carefully survey a marketplace before they jump into a heady new product in which vast sums of cash are going to be tossed. They listen very closely to dissenting opinions about the survivability of a chosen product to make sure they are not chasing their collective tails and tossing away money needlessly.

In the case of this boat I see the value of such a craft for a niche market of aficionados and not much beyond that. Any attempt to solidly discuss the realities of the market have been met with more hype, silence on the salient issues as put forward in counterpoint and a huff of indignance to spice the presentation.

My experience tells me that there's nothing behind the curtain from which Doug's voice is eminating. The team has already told us that nobody wants to invest in said People's Foiler and they don't have the cash, themselves, to flash the molds or front the marketing campaign. Doug is apparently unwilling to refi his home to push his incredible, sailing world concept to the real stage with a working production model, so I can only assume that he really doesn't believe in the concept all that much. You know the old saying about cash talking and BS... well, you get the picture.

This means that the boat and its genius market position is being hyped on the only available platform to expose this type of idea in a search for an investor and it happens to be in places like this Forum. I don't see Forum members jumping-up with cash in hand to be the ground floor partner in the enterpise, either. If anyone is out there reading this who has, say, $300,000 for starters that is just laying around doing nothing and you'd like to be a boating empresario.... I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'll apologize when the boat is in production and it's a big hit with the sailing buyers from the Average Joe sailing market. Put-out 500 units a year to real customers and you'll have my apology right here on the Forum.

Based on the stated goals and marketing objectives, I consider the concept to be half-baked in its present form. I am not directing this comment to Eric's design as I fell it has terrific potential as a nich product for a specific audience. This position is shared regarding the seriously premature marketing hype with no substantive product from which to base the hype. This is not the same boat as a Moth and it needs to be shown as a viable, working model if it's going to get anything more than a nod of casual interest. Hype does not make for a product in which Average Joes either will, or should, invest their money.

There are some very basic issues for a boat of this type. It needs to be very light in weight, very strong and as simple as possible to operate. By nature of design requirements and compared to conventional sailing craft, foiling boats are not simple and typically not passive in their controls. All of these things lead to expense for the finished product and take the design away from the design envelope that will ensure its success as a production boating product. Doug has lately indicated that he's going to add a sliding seat to the design. This will further move the design away from the key indicators of light and simple and will add weight to the final boat.

So, let's look at the design closely and you guys can make-up your own minds as to viability. Remember that this boat is being hyped as a "People's Foiler". While it's not dressed in grey pajamas with high collars, the implication of that selected phraseology is that it is a boat for the masses, one that an Average Joe can just slip onto and blast his way down the waterways of his own, personal Nirvana with little experience, little ability and little money.

The other boats in this "People's" category are decidedly simple products with few moving parts, easily understood controls, low purchase prices and are easily maintained by the average guy with simple household tool boxes. There are probably three dozen boats in this category already with some of the designs having very long and successful histories. Nothing tricky about them, they sail well and are the perfect platform for a new person to the sport of sailing.

The AeroSkiff has: moveable control surfaces for the foils, buoyancy pods to supposedly make the boat easier to learn to sail and added component elements to allow it to foil successfully, not to mention the pending sliding seat arrangement to further complicate the use of the boat for the new owner.

The pods a great concept in theory, but right now it's pure speculation as to whether or not they will actually improve the sailability, as it has not been tried on a functional production prototype of this boat. Secondly; pods add weight, complexity and cost to the boat. Third; added weight means bigger foils and a bigger sail to get the product airborne. Bigger foils and sail means more weight and more cost to produce. And so, much like the hopes attached to the boat in question, the design spiral has achieved lift-off, headed for an even higher price with added complexity to the Average Joe consumer.

Pods have been seen on Moths, but again, Moths are not the same boat and are not designed for the same potential market. Pods have also been seen on every trimaran, some sailing canoes, lots of aftermarket stability applications, etc. Apples and Oranges.

Let me make this really clear. I do like the boat that Eric has drawn and feel it would make for an interesting addition to the world of sailing. It's not a People's Boat, however, and it will sell only to a niche market of enthusiasts for whom the latest and greatest will always be the game. Could it be made to apply to rank beginners? I don't have the answer to that question, but I wouldn't buy one of the AeroSkiffs for my 16 yr. old son. Nor will I let him spend his own money on the product, if and when it's available.

I have this suggestion as to a low cost method to market the boat to test the viability of the product for the target audience. Design it for kit construction in both strip and marine plywood build techniques and sell the kits and/or plans to interested parties. Do the boat show circuit with the working product while putting-on hundreds of free sailing clinics for shop owners and Joe Public who happen by on the given day of the demo. Advertise the the demo at each shop well in advance of the arrival of the boat and greet each and every person as if they were the only one to show-up that entire summer. Be prepared to be physically and mentally exhausted by the effort.

Make special deals on the kits to a few, well-chosen builders who are experienced in the techniques and can sail already. Give away free kits for the hull to total novices with the dangling carrot of a full set of foils and a rig at your cost when they finish the boat to a ready state. Get as many out there sailing as you can and see what kind of noise is generated by the buzz in the industry. That's the market research program that will take the place of pure cash that you don't have sitting around to do it the more established way.

I'd like to thank all you guys for allowing me to present my opinions on the Forum. Doug and Eric... I wish you the best in your pursuit. I'll watch what happens, but I'm now done providing my counter point to the design feedback process.

Chris

tspeer

03-06-2006, 04:26 PM

...Our system bypasses the wand for the period of the jump so that the foil is lifting at re-entry. And our foils and control systems are designed specifically to do this. Big difference and much different result I hope.

That assumes the pitch attitude of the boat does not change too much. If the boat over-rotates, it can enter at a negative angle of attack, which would be bad. I've heard (but haven't been able to find confirmaing evidence) of a hydrofoil powerboat in Switzerland that broached the surface in a wave, pitched down and entered the next wave at a negative angle of attack. A crewmember was thrown through the cabin roof in the resulting crash-dive.

This is a fundamental problem with all fast sailing boats. If you would not travel at a certain speed in an off-road vehicle without wearing a seat belt, why would you consider operating at the same speed on water completely unrestrained? Whether it's a crewmember breaking a leg while asleep in his bunk in The Race or stays turning into meat-slicers, the crew provisions appropriate for 10 kt become increasingly unsafe at 20 kt and above.

Raggi_Thor

03-07-2006, 02:42 AM

I remember some years ago in the local competition for human powered boats, usually between students from the Norwegian institute of technology (Trondheim), Chalmers (Gutenburg), KTH (Stockholm) and Delft. Well, I remember the first time one team came up with a foil design. One man could quite relaxed cruise around in 10 to 15 knots. The forward foil was mechanically adjusted with a small floating "ski" or a streamlined pod on the surface. This was maybe 15 years ago.

Shife

03-07-2006, 05:50 PM

Dougie: I really have no interest in whether or not your latest creation ever leaves paper, but you will be doomed to failure if you don't drop the "Peoples Foiler" crap. Every time I hear it, I get this vision of you in a Hitler costume shouting about how it will change the world. While I admire your enthusiasm, there is no way you're going to convince the masses to drop 12 to 15K on a overly complex dinghy. At least not while there's a huge supply of inexpensive used beach cats available. I can check just about any newspaper and find a used Hobie 16 with a trailer for 1k. Let's see, minimal investment and fun on the water tomorrow, or double the price of a jetski and large learning curve. Which one do you really think the masses are going to go for?

Doug Lord

03-13-2006, 08:52 PM

I ran across some notes from last year when I discovered that Steve Clark was going to build and test a 17' foiler-his would use surface piercing foils back then. The idea -as I understood it- was to make a prototype for an easy to sail foiler-you know something like a Peoples Foiler. Maybe we'll hear more about this as time goes by.
------------------
There has been some rubbish put out by those that don't understand the Peoples Foiler vision: that what Eric and I are doing is trying to come up with a foiler for begining sailors. Hogwash!!-the Peoples Foiler concept and ,in particular, the aeroSKIFF™ concept is for a boat that would appeal to a wide range of EXPERIENCED sailors who got their start in any number of other classes. The concepts we are developing could lead and probably will lead -with or without us- to a mass produced strict one design foiler capable of jumping*, easy to sail and set up , beach sailable ,light with a large range of effective( and competitive) one design crew weight, unstayed rig and a safe, fun and very effective sliding seat crew/ballast system instead of a trapeze.
Despite what the visionless may say this is trully a revolution in sailing still in it's infancy with tremendous potential in a number of sizes and configurations. And all because of some pioneering work by a handfull of Australians.....
++++++++++++++++++
Raggi- sounds like the system used on the Hobie Trifoiler -very interesting time frame....
=================
=================
* Thanks to Randy for the "duh" enlightening me to what I've known about for a couple of years but have failed to have the sense to present in any discussion of jumping a foiler: it works well, it can be done safely and it's a hell of a lot of fun; see:
Monofoiler Jumping!!:
http://www.neilprydemaui.com/itemDetails.php?id=48

alyne

03-16-2006, 02:49 PM

Slightly changing the theme, but I think of interest in this thread, Simon Maguire has posted video footage of his
M4 hydrofoil http://www.sailm4.co.uk/files/large.wmv

Andy

Doug Lord

03-16-2006, 08:06 PM

New stills on the site as well-looking good-maybe the first Peoples Foiler is here?
Check this out:
The M4 concept @15° upwind

http://www.sailm4.co.uk/index.php?page=gallery&set=
------------
Note the bouyancy pods. Note also that the rig does not seem to be the high speed camber induced rig used on a Moth and the new Hoot(seahugger). I'd like to hear Simon's comments about that....

dimitarp

03-17-2006, 07:40 AM

What is the maximum speed when sail on foil?

DanishBagger

03-17-2006, 07:50 AM

What is the maximum speed when sail on foil?

I would assume that the heavier you are, and the better you are, not to mention the more it's blowing, that you can get very high speeds indeed.

Not the answer you wanted, but I doubt anyone can go anymore precise than "you can expect x times speed of a similar sized boat in a given wind speed".

The reason being that a foiler does not conform to the rules of waterline lengths, horsepower to weight ratio and that sort of thing.

Doug Lord

03-17-2006, 02:47 PM

I believe a couple of multifoilers have done over 40 knots but not by much-pretty close to cavitation on most foils above that speed(though it can also occur at less speed). The Moth monofoiler has so far topped 23.9 knts measured on an accurate Velocitec GPS speedometer. But the World Champion thinks the boat can go much faster...No idea about the M4-maybe Simon Maguire will fill us in.

alyne

03-17-2006, 06:58 PM

It's human nature to want to improve and change the way we do things. We need people to "think outside the box" otherwise life would be very boring.

Doug, I don't have any marine engineering experience to back me up, only common sense, but I agree with you that the concept of building a relatively inexpensive hydrofoil for the mass market is a reasonable aspiration, and people that slam this goal outright are probably being a little narrow minded. (mass market in dinghy sales being a relative term)

On the other hand, I don’t think you are doing yourself any favours by pushing the jumping idea. This to me sounds like something that should maybe explored once foiling has matured a little more.

Just my thoughts
Andy

Doug Lord

03-17-2006, 07:17 PM

I appreciate your comments, Andy, and what Eric and I believe in regarding jumping is full, thorough and complete testing-we're not advocating anybody else do this- but we're both interested in any comments on the concept. The potential is great for a whole new aspect to foiling . If you look at the foilboards that routinely jump and re-enter you're seeing a hydrofoil system that allows safe re-entry and the ability to jump at will. It is my firm belief that this kind of capability can be brought to an aeroSKIFF type foiler-and that it is worth doing because of the extraordinary experience that it is sure to be. No time like
the present to consider expanding foiling horizons....
========================
added comment: Andy, in the Moth class an accidental jump does not always result in a crash but the wand system raises the flap up for maximum downforce as the boat nears the surface; that's the way it re-enters: with the mainfoil flap in a position to suck the boat down hard. But the wand can respond quickly and all such happenings are not crashes. What we are talking about is developing a system where the skipper can bypass the wand for a controlled jump and a controlled re-entry. One main question is if the foil will ventillate immediately upon re-entry and /or to what extent and how quickly lift will be restored. By manipulating the flap manually the outlook for re-entry is much brighter though there may need to be more things that happen as well. We know that it works on the foilboard hydofoils but it will require a lot of experimentation to get such a system to work on a much more efficient foil set. We're putting the effort in and we'll see what happens...

tspeer

03-25-2006, 03:52 PM

What is the maximum speed when sail on foil?

VT/sin(beta)

casavecchia

03-30-2006, 11:38 AM

Here is another foiler (from SA)
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/uploads//post-751-1143728629_thumb.jpg
Marco.

CT 249

03-30-2006, 08:11 PM

By the way, re jumping.

You can jump a long windsurfer (ie the 12'6" Mistral IMCO, the former Olympic class). In fact, there are videos of Robby Naish LOOPING the similar Mistral Equip and I am assured that others can LOOP Mistral IMCOs on open bays. I have not seen this myself but I have been told it is true by direct witnesses who I have known for years.

So it's clearly possible, but we don't tend to do it. Sure, any breezy day we can jump an IMCO, but it's not an earth-shattering experience. Nor is jumping a skiff over a powerboat wake. Most windsurfer sailors use slalom boards which you could also loop on, but in fact they rarely tend to learn to chop-hop. It's just not that high on their priorities 'cause it's not that enormous a thrill.

Jumping windsurfers in waves, where you get much more height and get to go upside down and twist etc, now that IS fun. High jumps on flat water, or going for flat-water loops, that's lots of fun too.

Low jumps on flat water on the other hand are just something you may do once in a while.....sort of like seeing how high you can fly a cat hull,it's fun but doesn't make the earth move.

Doug Lord

03-30-2006, 08:54 PM

Marco, thanks for that picture! Would be interesting to know if that was an individual or company project and who made the foils.

casavecchia

03-31-2006, 11:38 AM

The author of the picture is Adam May, who designed and is still developing the Mistress Moth built by Full Force so I would assume that are Full Force built.
It seems that People's foiling is already here!
Retrofitting a suitable boat is for sure cheaper than buying a new boat.
And for gaining stability seems better more volume in the hull that out on the racks.
Marco.

Doug Lord

03-31-2006, 06:15 PM

That's an exciting development, Marco!
And with the wider hull no buoyancy pods. It will be interesting to learn more stats on the boat particularly :In how light a wind can it takeoff? And whether or not the foils are retractable for off the beach sailing.. Great stuff!

Doug Lord

08-04-2006, 06:32 PM

Heres some discussion on this boat:
Yachts and Yachting Online Forum: foiling rs600
Address:http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1800&PN=1

frosh

08-04-2006, 10:50 PM

The RS 600 on foils is great, but why should we end there. The revolution in sailing started by the Moth should be encouraged to proceed to rewriting of all existing " one-design" class rules so that the retro fitting of full flying foils becomes no less legal than painting your daggerboard pink!
Eventually we will all be sailing so fast that laws will be required to fit automatic air bags to our yachts, and all sailors will have to wear full face helmets in case of potentially fatal collisions.

The other interesting side effect of this move which just has to come, as it is well overdue, (The Moth has been on foils for a full two years now), is that hull shape will start to become irrelevant and in fact later on vestigial.

Then there will be only three classes of yacht.

(1) Unballasted dinghys.
(2) Ocean racers { the number of hulls will be irrelevant}
(3) "Musuem Standard" boats. {guess what they will look like?} :eek:

DanishBagger

08-05-2006, 05:09 AM

Frosh,

If only the racing classes would be opened, that is surely what would happen.

If everyone was into carbon fibre, if everyone was cutting their toothbrush in half to save weight, if everyone had the same type of (flat) water to sail in, if everyone had the urge to continously get slammed and get wet, if everyone had the attitude that speed is everything, the type of boat nothing, if everyone was the type that bought a racing bike made from carbon and titanium, if everyone had the same needs and wants, and if everyone cared only about speed, and the only (land) vehicle they wanted was a 300+kph motorcycle, then that would surely happen.

1. Why would you want ballast in a foiling dinghy? (You mention "unballasted", so I figure that ballasted would also be there somewhere, why else mention it is unballasted.

2. Ocean racers. Ah, yes, super light weight on foils. How many do you think would be killed before that would die a quick death? Not to mention the forces on (ultralightweight) foils in an ocean racer (=big boats).

3 "museum standard", yes, indeed, but to me that is much more fun. If speed was everything I wouldn't be building a keeler, I would have built or bought a katamaran or a skiff.

Sorry, but that post of yours reminds me of technophiles talking about how great it would be if we got rid of the keyboard on our computers, and how much easier it would be to do your work. Three words "Open Office landscape" - that would be great, wouldn't it? Or answering your phone and having to navigate at the same time on your computer .. Or editing audio - with voice commands. SMS'ing someone while on the bus, and so forth.

Yours are somewhat similar.

Andre

xarax

08-05-2006, 03:22 PM

I am sure you had considered the case of a catamaran foiler before you came up with the trifoiler. Catamarans are still more "conventionally" good looking crafts to many potential customers, and that could be a commercial benefit. Could you possibly state in a few words the reasons you finally came up with the trimaran solution ?

Doug Lord

08-05-2006, 03:39 PM

Xarax, I'm not sure whether you're addressing your comments to me or not but here goes: the aeroSKIFF 14 design is a monofoiler using just two foils to fly vs the three normally used on a trifoiler.It does use "buoyancy pods" to help with stability in non foiling conditions.
aeroSKIFF 14
1)Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5297&d=1141571544
2)Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5298&d=1141571544

My rc design, F3,is a "trifoiler" because I believe that for a multifoiler the three foil configuration is the lightest and because it also develops all it's own righting moment. Th F3 is much wider than it is long(72" wide; 56" long) and the very wide trimaran platform allows the loads on the foils to be drastically reduced as compared to a narrower cat that also uses a diferential "wand" system to generate RM.
A regular poster to ths forum "ggguest" has come up with a multifoiler idea that might work like a two foil monofoiler: just two foils would be in the water at any one time and RM would be generated in the normal way. Might work , but the advantage the Hobie Trifoiler, Rave and F3 have is that they develop virtually unlimited RM which appears to give an advantage in the higher wind ranges but is nowhere near as eficient as a monofoiler in the wind ranges between 5 and 20 knots more or less. Hope this helps and I apologize if your question was not directed to me!
F3 RC Sailing Multifoiler:
mfoilerf3_14a.jpg
Address:http://www.microsail.com/images/mfoilerf3_14a.jpg

xarax

08-05-2006, 06:46 PM

Thank you Doug,
My mistake. I wanted to say "trimaran-like", meaning the general picture given by the inclusion in the design of the buoyancy pods, not "trifoiler". I had the idea that if the foil or foils, any number of them, are supported below a more traditional looking craft like a catamaran, ( the two hulls could function as pods, couldn t they? ), that would be a commercial benefit to some people. On the other hand, it is more sincere for a revolutionary functioning craft to look revolutionary too!
One humble advice: It would be a pity to be too much concerned about the cost, at least at this stage of development. People pay much more than the estimated cost of the boat for much less fun. If you build it they will come... Sailing foilers are here to stay, and it is sure that one day, one of them will be a commercial success. Good luck!

Doug Lord

08-05-2006, 06:55 PM

Thank you very much for the encouragement, Xarax! Means a lot and I appreciate it.

marshmat

08-05-2006, 07:25 PM

I really like the concept, Doug. Neat idea and I'll be following along to see what news you bring.
About the cost, that's come up here and in other foiler threads. This may not seem like a big issue to some, but for a lot of us it is the single biggest deciding factor. As a case study, I present the totally unscientific Boats Seen On A Cottage Lake In A Year study:
Outboards under 16 feet: ~35 (everyone on the lake has 1 to 3 of them)
Outboard and sterndrive runabouts over 16 feet: ~4
Sailboats of any sort: 1, a '70s Sunfish, even though the lake is windy enough 4 days a week to top six knots in this thing.
Why is this? The answer is that those aluminum utility boats are worth two grand, three at most, plus a 10-20hp motor. Show me a sailboat that's fun to use, comfortable, fast enough to get more than 500 metres from the dock, and that doesn't dunk you every ten minutes, for under $5,000 CDN. A "people's boat" of any sort has to be affordable- for $15,000 I can get a pretty decent car, or a 16-footer with a 50hp. What does that get me in the sailboat world? This is the issue that must be solved before any radical new sailboat can be called a "people's boat".
As an aside, what does a new Laser go for these days? What about other non-piggish dinghies? Yup.....

Doug Lord

08-05-2006, 07:40 PM

Thanks, Matt. I think whats going to have to happen is that some of us that believe in the potential of this type of boat are going to have to produce prototypes that prove the points we've been making about ease of sailing, low wind takeoff etc. In so doing we will refine the details and come up with a way to reduce cost or inspire some one else(!) to do that -and finally a Peoples Foiler will be born. The guys on the RS and M4 are a lot further ahead than I am and I imagine that there are others as well. Somebody, somewhere will pull it all together-no doubt in my mind!
---------------
I think a Laser is around 4-6 grand but I'm not positive. One of the little appreciated facts about a Moth foiler is that it can be homebuilt with buoyancy pods, a pro,camber induced carbon rig and pro foils for around $7,000 ! I'm pessimistic about costs(and a few other things) given the world situation but I agree that cost is an important part of the equation for a Peoples Foiler.
--------------
Laser Pro=$5,000
Vanguard Racing Sailboats Price List
Address:http://www.theboathouse.biz/boat_vanguard_price_list.asp

marshmat

08-05-2006, 08:47 PM

"Laser Pro=$5,000" USD, of course.... to a Canuck like me that's more like $6800 after tax.....
I agree completely, Doug. Innovation only succeeds when someone is passionate enough to make it succeed.
By the time the People's Foiler is produced at a reasonable cost, I might even be making enough money to buy one :D

frosh

08-05-2006, 09:18 PM

Danish Bagger, were you serious in thinking that I was serious? If you have read any of my previous postings then it would make sense, (I think!).:)

P.S. The reason that ballasted dinghies werent included is that any one foolish enough to think that a lead carrying dinghy could compete with 30 mph. foilers would surely be wrong, and as speed is all there is, this sub-type would immediately be relegated to "Museum Standard".

Doug Lord

08-21-2006, 02:19 PM

Somewhat interesting thread developing on DA:
Foiling the Hoot - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39879
I'm afraid that a real succesful Peoples Foiler will have to be designed from scratch as a foiler.
But maybe not: the first foiler Moth's were conversions.....
------------------------
Voodoo & Hoot: why not foils?? - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10431&highlight=Hoot
------------------------
Das Hoot! - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9754&highlight=Hoot

frosh

08-21-2006, 04:36 PM

Without needing to express my own opinion I refer to some self explanatory historical facts:
http://www.windriderforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=596

AND---
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_trifoiler.html

Note the bit that says that the "Trifoiler is no longer in production". However we still include it on our web site beacuse it is so cool.

My theory is that production was deliberately ceased even though demand was really high from potential buyers because---
The Hobie company wanted the Trifoiler to become a collectors item, just like the Mercedes Gull wing 1952 SL 300 and for the second hand one or two out there to increase enormously in value because of their rarity value. :rolleyes:

Doug Lord

08-21-2006, 04:51 PM

For shame , Frosh-not even on topic! This thread is about Peoples Foiler candidates-not "foiler yachts" or multifoilers and they only have two foils....

Chris Ostlind

08-21-2006, 06:02 PM

This whole, People's Foiler scam, is really just a marketing position that Doug staked-out as his way to create wordsmithing leverage in advance of his subsequent endless stream of vapor hype. There is no such boat, there isn't likely to be any such boat That set of drawings that were done by Eric do not constitute a boat. They constitute a set of concept drawings from which a boat would be very difficult to build.

Let's face it folks, who in their right mind would attempt to market a product that has a nomenclature dreamed-up by the VaporMaster? It has so much dense baggage around its neck already that the claimer of that name would have to fight their way through the density curtain well before they could begin to open the argument for the boat itself.

No... there are literally thousands of other names one should correctly choose before being saddled with the title of, "People's Foiler".

Now, if China were to come out with that product and the ground crew were dressed in proletariat versions of the Mao suit, you could have a real winner in the works. A really efficient crew of guys buzzing around the pilot as he makes his way to the tightly prepped foiling machine on the beach. Something tells me that no savvy Chinese company would be taking Ol' Doug into the fold for consultation work on the marketing aspects of Foilerdom.

I'd be ready to sell them a whole campaign of pastel colored boats with bamboo and flower grahics on the sail and call the craft, The Lifting Lotus, with suitable Chinese characters to convey the name in the Asian market.

Who says this mythical boat has to have two foils to qualify? Is there a rule somewhere about that one that I missed in my lazy, rules reading approach to the foil genre?

Note to Frosh: my contacts in the paddling industry tell me that the whole development of the Rave was to create a high-tech product of enormous whiz-bang value as the company positioned itself for a buyout. It was a "we did it because we have the know-how to do it. We're a full spectrum outfit."

Is it any wonder that once the new owners got onboard and saw the development and potential marketing costs for an extremely niche product with little potential for earning back what it cost to get there, they dropped that dude and walked away as fast as they could?

Dr. Sam, or not, it was the wrong boat at the wrong time for market positioning in a practical sense. A cool boat? absolutely. One where I was willing to throw-down the cash? Nope.

frosh

08-21-2006, 09:46 PM

For shame , Frosh-not even on topic! This thread is about Peoples Foiler candidates-not "foiler yachts" or multifoilers and they only have two foils....

WHAT - - IS THIS SORT OF RESPONSE?

It appears that because the Hobie Trifoiler and the Rave (Both now extinct like the Dodo) do not have a configuration exactly like a Moth we cannot use them as an example that by and large the public will not buy a foiler yacht, dinghy, multihull, watercraft, take your pick.

Well when is a trimaran a monohull? Doug knows this one! When the outer hulls are meant to fly through the air and only touch water in an emergency.
His much lauded M4 is technically a trimaran yet his romance with the Moth if not the Mothies (sadly) also includes the M4 and the Bladerider. Maybe his infidelity to the Moth was the cause of his falling out.

QUOTE BY FOILR:

Doug, as I've said before, we as a class do not need or want your promotion efforts or advice. Your ill-informed views have made you a pariah wherever they are voiced. Please keep your comments grounded in the reality of your own experiences, not those you've shared by reading web sites. You have managed to belittle the informed opinions of current and previous Moth administrators and sailors. I for one don't appreciate it.

By all means continue to promote the achievements of the M4 or the aeroSKIFF, don't pretend to be a source of truth for Moths.

Today I am an Attorney at Law.
If this case was to be tried in the Supreme Court of Western Australia, you would be without doubt found guilty of some form of felony and made to pay considerable compensation for your breach of trust! :mad: :mad:

tspeer

08-22-2006, 01:01 AM

...
My theory is that production was deliberately ceased even though demand was really high from potential buyers because---
The Hobie company wanted the Trifoiler to become a collectors item...

I don't suppose the fact that it was a two-seat day-sailer that cost $20K (IIRC) and was an absolute dog in anything but a blow had anything to do with it.

Most people don't live in locales where the wind blows hard enough, enough of the time, to make good use of a Trifoiler. It's just plain disappointing to spend all that money for something that won't do what you want it to do most of the time. And being passed by ordinary beach cats is a bummer.

frosh

08-22-2006, 05:36 AM

Hi Doug, thought you might like to be reminded of a couple of points that are pertinent, when you get to market the thing that's going to bring you fame and fortune, the "People's Foiler". First make sure that Senator Joe McCarthy's descendants have got over the " commo" thing as it sounds (as C. Ostlind accurately pointed out) like a Mao Tse Tung invention. You would have been lucky if it was, as he had a way of forcing people to do things!

This is from Ben Abee of CONFLUENCE WATERSPORTS the manufacturer of the Rave (deceased, the Rave not Ben)

LESSONS LEARNED:

First, the obvious,

1. Marketing of the Rave was either a miserable failure or non-existent. It's hard to tell which. The Rave marketing strategy was distilled to building the Rave parts, letting them sit in the factory, and hoping someone would hear about them. The Rave shared catalog space with the WR 16.

2. Confluence was given $26,000,000 to continue operations. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to buy one print ad for the Rave.
*************************************************

Then there is the thing about the prevailing wind conditions so well illustrated by T. Speer. I believe that that around Orlando way it is pretty light, right?

Orlando Weather
(About My Yahoo! and RSS - RSS Help) Weather > North America > United States > Florida > Orlando
F° | C°

Current conditions as of 3:53 am EDT

Fair
Feels Like: 83°
Barometer: 30.10 in and steady
Humidity: 84%
Visibility: 10 mi
Dewpoint: 73°
Wind: Calm *********
Sunrise: 6:58 am
Sunset: 7:58 pm
78°High: 92° Low: 76°

Today: Partial cloudiness early, with scattered showers and thunderstorms during the afternoon. High 92F. Winds SE at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tonight: Partly to mostly cloudy skies with scattered thunderstorms during the evening. Low 76F. Winds S at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tomorrow: Partly cloudy in the morning followed by scattered thunderstorms later in the day. High 91F. Winds SSW at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.
Tomorrow night: Partly to mostly cloudy skies with scattered thunderstorms mainly before midnight. Low 76F. Winds S at 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 40%.

This means that to foil even in an optimised Bifoiler that weighs less than 70 lb. the sailor will need to weigh less than 130lb to fly in typical Orlando conditions in Summer. How many affluent US citizens even qualify in this requirement. (Sorry, but no insult intended by this, it is a statistical fact)
Of course the other option is variable size foils. Add at least $5000 for this accessory!
Are you maybe about to inherit a fortune? -- that you don't mind losing? :confused:

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 08:02 AM

Here's the post that originated this thread. One of the most important attributes of a successfull Peoples Foiler and a focus of the aeroSKIFF design is low windspeed takeoff. It is also a focus of the new Bladerider where the target is the same as the aeroSKIFF: takeoff in a 5 mph wind.
Whether it's the aeroSKIFF 14, M4(the most advanced Peoples Foiler candidate so far), modified RS 600, modified Hoot*, Bladerider or some heretofore unknown monofoiler it's highly likely that sooner or later someone will do it right and introduce the most exciting one design dinghy ever.
* See post 67 for a thread on Dinghy Anarchy about foiling the Hoot...

The concept of a Peoples Foiler is an exciting one. Take a look at the M4 project being developed by Simon Maguire.
The M4 concept
Address:http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ Changed:8:52 PM on Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Eric Sponberg and I are developing the aeroSKIFF™ project.(SEE DRAWINGS UNDER POST# 15 BELOW)
Both groups are looking at the idea of a foiler that could appeal to a wider group of people than the extraordinary Moth foiler-the inspiration behind both projects.
---- The original aeroSKIFF 16 monofoiler is serving as a test bed for numerous ideas that may be incorporated in the final version aeroSKIFF 14 designed by Eric Sponberg and myself with all structural engineering by Eric Sponberg. So far we have not been able to raise the funds to proceed very far so things are moving slowly-though we continue the search. The 16 is having major modifications made now to help sort out various concepts.New pictures will be posted on www.monofoiler.com when the mods are complete and then later sailing pictures when we're satisfied with the results.
So here are some details of the aeroSKIFF excerpted from our presentation:
-----------------------------------------------
Marketing
------------------------------------------------
We feel the boat should be easy to sail by an experienced sailor(including windsurfers and kite guys) that graduates from one of our Foiler Flying Centers the first of which would be located at the Calema Windsurf facility on Meritt Island, Florida. The owner is a champion windsurfer who runs the Gaastra sail R&D shop as well as a school and shop for windsurfing equipment. He is an experienced ,very knowledgeable sailor and thinks a well designed aeroSKIFF would compliment his business.We feel the key to making a successful foiler marketing campaign will begin with a Foiler Flying Center school where graduates can rent boats and experience foiling under the guidance of knowledgeble instructors. In fact, one idea that we favor is to make the sale of an aeroSKIFF contingent on completion of the foiler course. Impulse sales of this kind of boat would probably be counter-productive. Calema believes in the school concept as critical for their business as it is now and as it would be with the aeroSKIFF. Most customers will welcome this; we will insist on it.
---------------------------
There is a lot more to our plan but that is one of the critical parts to building a foiler business.
--------------------------------
TARGET SPECIFICATIONS / aeroSKIFF 14 / based on 250lb. max crew-drawings in post 15 based on 220lb. max crew.
-------------------------------------------
1) LOA 14'8" Beam 12'(drawings in post 15 show 10' beam-beam may be increased to reduce buoyancy pod size and to help make crew weight range wider)
-------------------------------------------
2) Target ready to fly boat weight: 120 lb.s
--------------------------------------------
3) Max Crew 250lb.s ; target minimum crew 120lb. -----------------------------------------------
4) Flying weight: 370lb.s
-----------------------------------------------
5) SA 143 sq.ft. square topped, camber induced , main only, unstayed mast ,extended luff, modified wishbone, midboom sheeting.
-----------------------------------------------
6) Standard main foil area 1.68 sq.ft.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Mainfoil loading @ 80% 176lb. sq. ft.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Rudder foil area 50% mainfoil area.
-----------------------------------------------
9) SA/mainfoil area: 85sq. ft. per sq.ft. foil area.
-----------------------------------------------
10) "Wing Loading"( all up weight divided by SA) =2.58lb.s per sq.ft. SA.
------------------------------------------------
11) Draft ,off foils; foils extended= 3.75'-variable.
===============================================
Features
===============================================
1) High speed rig with sail design by Barry Spanier; mast design and engineering by Eric Sponberg.Forward third of sail comes completely down to the deck; the boom is a modified version of a wishbone boom with a cross member just forward of mid length that takes the mainsheet. The sheet is led to a traveller on the forward beam allowing the sheet to come from forward. A twin vang set up will be used should a vang be required.
-----------------------------------------------
2) Foils retract to facilitate beach launching.
-----------------------------------------------
3) Sliding single bench seat; slides easily and contains ballast compartment for one design class weight equalization system.Motion control system that prevents runaway seat in adverse situations.
----------------------------------------------
4) Standard foils optimized for low speed takeoff; optional tip extentions; optional high speed foils.
-----------------------------------------------
5) Buoyancy pods approx 1.56 cu' per side; larger optional pods available for training.(see approx 3 cu. ft. pods illustrated in the sketches in post #15)
-----------------------------------------------
6)Rudder: unique design slides up and down in daggerboard style slot; stepped rudder flap designed to allow variable rudder area between non foiling and foiling; Target is to have rudder throw and sensitivity the same on or off
foils.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Double ended high beam to length ratio hull facilitates earliest 0 to takeoff; facillitates pitch change to allow early takeoff though foil system may not require this.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Trampoline each side with heel cutouts allowing quick, secure seat movement.
-----------------------------------------------
9) Foils designed to take loads imposed by jumping which can be initiated by twisting hiking stick(s).System bypasses wand but still utilizes forward /rear foil interconnect.
-----------------------------------------------
10) Variable main foil "gear shift" angle of incidence adjustment. From "set it and forget it" to fine tuning main foil drag.
-----------------------------------------------
11) Exceptionally wide crew weight range ; one design class races wil be sailed at the 250 lb.s crew weight. Speed runs will be able to be made with lower(or higher) crew weight as long as RM is addressed.
----------------------------------------------
12) Wand controlled altitude with height adjustment. Set it and forget it or tweak it. Unique averaging wand system to improve choppy water response including fore and aft foil interconnect and wand bypass for smoother flying and better jumps.
----------------------------------------
13)(added 8/22 for emphasis) see #4 & #7 above and note that this boat is specifically designed for low windspeed takeoff.

Jumping is an important part of this foiler design because we think it will add to the value of the boat and to the fun of flying this foiler.

Figgy

08-22-2006, 08:27 AM

Doug, why dont you just build kits for people to turn thier boats into foilers? Less start up cost, less overhead, less bs. You don't have the problems of trying to introduce a whole new craft to the market. Start with something fresh (read: not a Moth), and as funds allow, expand. The market might be more receptive.

Raggi_Thor

08-22-2006, 08:37 AM

I have nothing to contribute, but must say this thread is quite amusing :-)
Have you seen the foilyak lately?
http://www.foilkayak.com/

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 08:43 AM

Figgy, for the right boat that might be a good idea. But modifying an existing boat can be a can of worms-many of the existing Moths had to have daggerboards angled forward to get the mainfoil far enough away from the rudder foil to give good pitch stability. This meant(means) that the board could not be retracted and had to be installed from under the boat by a crew who waded out to deep enough water.
A double ended hull* can be a real benefit in taking off in the lightest conditions because the boat can be pitched up allowing a greater foil angle of attack with the least drag. On a boat like the Hoot or RS
600 that would be a problem....
So far I think the boat that eventually fills the bill as a Peoples Foiler will be designed from scratch as a two foil monofoiler.
------------------------
* A system has been developed to allow a bi-foiler to take off level with no pitch up at all but is slightly more complicated than a Moth system.A lever is used to shift the angle of incidence relative to the 0 degree line(static wl with crew forward on aeroSKIFF) of both the main foil and rudder foil. Does not interfere with wand function.Foils can be shifted while sailing and can be shifted back for higher speed foiling.

Dan S

08-22-2006, 01:20 PM

So far I think the boat that eventually fills the bill as a Peoples Foiler will be designed from scratch as a two foil monofoiler.
So when are you going to show us this design?

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 01:24 PM

Dan S

08-22-2006, 01:50 PM

Dan, the aeroSKIFF 14 design is partially shown in post #15.
Here is the sail plan:
aeroSKIFF 14
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5297&d=1141571544 Changed:10:12 AM on Sunday, March 5, 2006
Doug,

I don’t think you can really call this a finalized design, what has been provided looks more like conceptual drawings to me. How is the proto type coming, do you have any photos to share?

Paul B

08-22-2006, 01:51 PM

So when are you going to show us this design?

To my knowledge this loud talking guy Doug Lord has never presented one drawing, done by him, on this board for any of his "designs" that are so far advanced the rest of us are "nuts" for not following along.

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 01:58 PM

Dan S

08-22-2006, 02:06 PM

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 02:22 PM

Dan, to the extent there is a "PR campaign" it is about the concept of a Peoples Foiler-not specifically about the aeroSKIFF 14. The idea is to pull together in one place as much info about Peoples Foiler wannabe's as possible -not to promote any one boat.

Paul B

08-22-2006, 02:33 PM

No prototype will be started until financing is found for the project.

Isn't this the guy who keeps telling people they should get right into it and build their foiling Moths since a world class boat can be done for US$7,000?

If that's the case then what financing is needed for this project? Think of all the cash flow you'll have once you show the world how it is done. Should be a great ROI.

frosh

08-22-2006, 02:51 PM

It's a little beyond conceptual drawings, Dan.The drawings reflect much of the technical design work that has already been done. No prototype will be started until financing is found for the project. Many aspects of the design may be improved upon throughout the process.
The M4 is way ahead- already sailing (at least) their second prototype.

I would be certain that your credibility would improve dramatically if we could be privileged to also be allowed to take a look at the technical drawings of the design. From your description of the features of the Aeroskiff 14:?: discussed in posting #77 the adjustments possible to the foil system will pale the Fastacraft one to one I might describe as relatively rudimentary.

Is it possible that your NA (and I prefer not to ask him directly, as it might not be him anymore) would make a posting on this forum indicating the veracity of the material in your quote above.

Chris Ostlind

08-22-2006, 03:30 PM

Doug, This is pretty darn cute, if you ask me.

"...to the extent there is a "PR campaign" it is about the concept of a Peoples Foiler-not specifically about the aeroSKIFF 14. The idea is to pull together in one place as much info about Peoples Foiler wannabe's as possible -not to promote any one boat."

Deny the obvious and then use that pulpit to go on with yet another promo pitch. Like I said before, you've possibly missed your calling as a politician.

When one goes back through all the various and sundry "discussions" about this whole, foiling for the masses thing, one quickly realizes that virtually all the hyperbole presented is nothing but an attempt to pump-up a position which you so desperately need, to make this AeroSKIFF thing work in any possible way.

There's a reason why nobody will step-up with the cash to do the deal. Actually, there are probably a dozen, really good, well thought-out reasons to not get involved, as an investor, in a project of this sort. Not the least of which, is that this type of boat is more, or less, the flavor of the month in the pursuit of all things technological in the sport. Once the flavor leaves the front of the consciousness in the marketplace, there's no real substantive value to the company unless they can gin-up yeat another tasty flavor that's new and different.

Lot's of folks have interesting, inspired even, ideas that get them vaulted into the front of the genre in which they operate. The trick is to have a second idea and so forth, so that they can stay in business and not be a one trick pony.

Investors like annualized profits, to be sure, but they also want lasting equity value in their investment so that when they cash-out, there's actually something there that another group will want to buy, thereby leveraging the previous profits to a much higher plane.

A company with out of date tooling in a technical field is virtually worthless.

You could drop all the pretense about the real mission, as well as any mention of the defunct process you are on with the AeroSKIFF foiling idea. That would go a long way to eliminating that part of the objection that a group of list members are having. Then you could concentrate (and I know you will) on discussing the verifiable merits of projects that are actually moving to some sort of destination through hard work and personal investment of time and cash.

Sooner or later, Doug, you have to walk away from the busted dream and try to latch on to one that is actually going somewhere. I get the, relentless obsession, part of your actions. Pitching TV and Film projects is very much like that. There does come a time, however, when you have to accept that it "ain't gonna happen like you thought it would" and just let it go.

There's real grace in objective reasoning and hopefully, it will allow you to get past the tough realities. I truly hope that happens for you.

I'm not down on you anymore, Doug, but even you would have to admit that the routine here is getting kinda sad in its desperation.

CT 249

08-22-2006, 08:24 PM

Can anyone here with experience in the field tell us whether capital investors can normally be found before a working prototype has been created, especially considering it's not a particularly expensive item to build?

In the time this project has been pitched here, other people on the Boat Design forum have fully designed, built, launched, tested, sailed, paid for and raced (and even taken out patents on) larger and sometimes more novel boats, while working, racing or coaching, and bringing up kids and paying off the mortgages.

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 09:25 PM

I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.In the business plan I think the estimate was around $120,000 to get the completed design and structural engineering from Eric, one set of quickie molds(suitable for a few parts), two complete hulls, decks, pods etc.,custom carbon masts and unique wishbone booms with up to 10 rig iterations to be tried(designed and engineered by Eric and built by a production composites mast builder). This included work from Barry Spanier on sail design with at least 10 different sails. This amount included us full time for a specific
time and included something like four months of two boat testing BEFORE being ready for production tooling. This was not conceived of as backyard project but as a first class development
plan to be funded properly or not at all. It requires that not only do we have a committment for the extensive(and methodical) development of two sailing prototypes and the time for testing but that we have the funding from that point to a fully functioning business including patent protection on developments that merit it.(This amount is approximately triple the prototype development costs).
Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves and we don't consider a less ambitious version of the project to be worthwhile. The result of pursuing this course of action may be no boat at all or it may be one of the most outstanding new dinghy foilers ever built.All or nothing-done right or not at all.....

usa2

08-22-2006, 09:37 PM

I think you should do it.Theories are nice to think about, but if you actually went through with one of your ideas that would be really cool.

CT 249

08-22-2006, 09:39 PM

Well, it's certainly ambitious to get the hull design, especially a hull design that seems to be so vastly different in terms of rocker (the only thing we can get an idea about) from existing proven foiler hulls, right with just two prototypes. People like Morrison and Bethwaite, who have years of experience in skiff types, take more than that to make much smaller steps. Personally I would have thought anyone chucking $120k around would want to see a working example, even a rough one, but I'm a novice in such matters.

It's going to be hard for you to catch up to the vaguely similar project that a famous name is already working on, but as a layman his foil layout looks a bit like something the Moths have tried and discarded.

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 09:50 PM

CT-I am working on my own on a "backyard project"
the Trapwing 17 that uses movable on deck ballast and foils off wind initially. This will use a lot of new stuff and may serve the purpose you suggest as well as being more suitable to me personally.(not a Peoples Foiler candidate)
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
Sounds like you were describiing a foiler project Steve Clark told me about a while back. He was going to use a long main hull like an A class hull with racks and surface piercing foils-three foils in total.The Moth Class has ruled that configuration illegal. Brett Burvil's version was fast off the wind and slow upwind compared to a bi-foiler. Haven't heard anymore recently but any new Peoples Foiler project will
be mentioned here when I hear about it.

Chris Ostlind

08-22-2006, 09:51 PM

Double it and that might get you some actual breathing room for non-anticipated development issues and all the stuff that appears out of nowhere no matter how well you think you've got it together.

You also need a marketing and spares budget or the result of the expenditure is toast, dead in the water. How about a travel budget to demo the boats in several sailing centers around the country (a couple of times)... and who's going to be the driver?

This dude or dudess has to be extremely fit, hopefully pleasant to look at and exceptionally well-spoken. Helps a lot if they are known in the dinghy sailing world with an established following. That person will cost money and they'll likely want it up front. With all due respect, Doug, that should not be you.

Nope, a quarter million just to open the argument or you will be doing it on the cheap wherever you go.

CT 249

08-22-2006, 10:09 PM

No, it's not Steve's boat.

Edit - nor is it Moth-type surface piecer

Doug Lord

08-22-2006, 10:29 PM

Here's a list of all the boats(projects) under 20' that I know have foiled or that may foil in the future:
1) M4- the unquestioned leader as of tonight.
2) Bladerider-may or may not be a Peoples Foiler
with pods I'd say yes; with pods and the big main they talk about I'd say definitely.
3) RS 600- has foiled-no other info
4) I14's- several have flown but full flying foil systems are illegal so a spin-off might qualify.
5) 49er- somebody somewhere has a set of Fastacraft foils specifically for this boat but
that's all I know.
6) Aussie 18 reported by Baronvonwhatever appeared to have surface piercing foils and would be an unlikely candidate.
7) Steve Clarks 17-18 with surface piercing foils-maybe but unlikely with those kinds of foils.
8) Ct's mystery boat-unlikely if using surface piercing foils.( he said it used a foil system discarded by the Moth class if I understood correctly)
9) aeroSKIFF 14 -project stalled but not dead; close to the best if properly funded and succesfully executed.
10) Hoot-has some potential; see previous post # 67 and DA....

Thats a lot of Peoples Foiler wanabe's-someone, somewhere, sometime from now will put it all together-count on it! And there may be others I don't know about but when I do they'll be written up here.... And good luck to us all......

frosh

08-23-2006, 12:15 AM

[QUOTE=Doug Lord]I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.
Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves--

The way I see it in Moths is that if full flying is the whole ball game then the hull design is of little relevance in comparison to the foils, hiking system and the controls to run these effectively. Ian Ward has foiled easily on an ancient scow Moth and at moderate winds there should be little speed difference between Ian's and Rohan's Moth, assuming that they had identical rigs.

It is instructive to read the considerable feedback from Phil Stevenson, a very experienced and capable Moth sailor, talking about the difficulties of transitions with a sliding seat on his International Canoe.
There is a strong possibility that a sliding seat might unbalance a foiler so much that tacks and gybes might be very difficult without significant size pods (In the scale of Hydroptere rather than the M4).

The enormity of the scale of development that you have claimed to be undertaking is far greater than what John Ilett went through creating and refining his foiling system. He had already a proven hull and hiking racks. He could plug a rig straight in that was shown to be state of the art in the Moth class.

Where I smell a rat is the statement you make that re the cost of tooling up for a custom mast and boom. Are you sure that Eric concurs with this? BTW as you have said that Eric is still very much on the project (when the investment money is forthcoming of course), it would be nice to hear direct from Eric on this forum confirming some of what you have said today.

I guess that you are going to manufacture various mandrels and install a filament winding unit to create high tech spars?? What in hell for?
Even General Motors who have more financial resources than you and me combined don't manufacture their own tyres for the millions of vehicles they produce per annum. I am almost certain that if Eric was really involved he would be saying that we will of course source carbon spars from a specialist manufacturer.

The last part of the QUOTATION you made-- saying that neither you nor Eric can provide the funds for the necessary development, tooling testing etc. strongly implies that Eric Sponberg would put his own money into the project if his financial situation allowed it. With the greatest of respect towards him as my reading of his postings and observing his work on this forum shows that he is a first class operator, I am certain that he would NOT put his funds into the Aerofoiler project. Best of luck finding investment funds!

Doug Lord

08-23-2006, 11:33 AM

Once more for emphasis:

I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.In the business plan I think the estimate was around $120,000 to get the completed design and structural engineering from Eric, one set of quickie molds(suitable for a few parts), two complete hulls, decks, pods etc.,custom carbon masts and unique wishbone booms with up to 10 rig iterations to be tried(designed and engineered by Eric and built by a production composites mast builder). This included work from Barry Spanier on sail design with at least 10 different sails. This amount included us full time for a specific
time and included something like four months of two boat testing BEFORE being ready for production tooling. This was not conceived of as backyard project but as a first class development
plan to be funded properly or not at all. It requires that not only do we have a committment for the extensive(and methodical) development of two sailing prototypes and the time for testing but that we have the funding from that point to a fully functioning business including patent protection on developments that merit it.(This amount is approximately triple the prototype development costs).
Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves and we don't consider a less ambitious version of the project to be worthwhile. The result of pursuing this course of action may be no boat at all or it may be one of the most outstanding new dinghy foilers ever built.All or nothing-done right or not at all.....

Chris Ostlind

08-23-2006, 12:13 PM

Since this is now entering the ridiculous, having long since passed the sublime, I really wonder just what you hope to accomplish with a series of patents for transitory technology besides feeling like you are, "very cool in a personal, brag about it at a BBQ", kind of way.

From my experience, this is simply throwing money away at a moving object, hoping it will somehow stick.

While you are spending dough on an intellectual properties attorney (and it's gonna be a big chunk of dough, along the lines of 10% of your budget if you pursue one patent) the potential competition will be dosing-up on your product, evaluating it for commercial feasibility and building themselves right around your tasty, struggled-over, paid-for patent. BAM! your patent is worthless and worse, while you were all depressed about the shenanigans, the other guys have kicked your collective butts in the marketplace.

Save the patent hassle for the next biological product that cures cancer and sell it to a huge company that has the legal department to chase all the knock-offs... if it becomes successful.

The absolute best expenditure of cash in the pursuit of a small boat for the marketplace is not with attorneys. In fact, it’s in the development of the next great cheeseburger boat for the sailors of the world. Drop the patent search documents and step away from the law office while you still have a running chance.

This mention of filed patents in this regard only shows how one can get all strung-out on the self importance aspects of building boats. Please ask around to some of the established boat companies and inquire as to how often they can afford a patent process. If your stuff actually works, you're gonna get copied, it's as simple as that. No harm, no foul. Development being what it is, I would bet there are several arguments for copying of the efforts of others right in your own design.

Doug, you can't even raise the capital for the initial enterprise. How are you going to pay the retainer fees to pursue the possible patent offenders of this super cool boat? Have you ever retained counsel for what amounts to a goose chase? Do you really have any idea how much money you are talking about? Have you ever tried to chase a boat builder in China who is perfectly knocking-off your new product? Have you any idea how much money it takes to visit and then revisit all your dealers and try to convince them to not purchase the cheaper, higher margin, boat from China, all while your production facility is dead in the water with laid-off workers?

Quarter Mill... minimum... to get in the game. And that’s USD$ money.

You can blow me off on this list, but if this thing ever gets off the ground, you'll be wishing you listened to logic rather than your inner muse.

frosh

08-23-2006, 07:23 PM

Doug, If you are trying to teach us "anti-foilers" (which we are not BTW) the wisdom of your approach to the Aeroskiff project, just quoting an entire posting of your own is not the way to go about it.
You need to be countering any worthwhile arguments of your critics and illustrating the reasons why your ideas will work by elaborating your reasoning further.
You must know the realities of this life, and the dude (Bertram) that posted yesterday a thread to the effect that: If he was to design a boat would a large manufacturer want to buy the design and mass market his boat, and pay him be giving him a freebie. Problem is that he is a newbie amateur designer, and secondly, Ferretti, or Riviera Boats, don't exactly need his expertise.
I apologise hereby to Bertram, if this sounds bad, but the example is so pertinent to you, Doug, that I had to give it as an illustration.
I read your posting re- Sailing Anarchy discussing the fastest dinghy and none of the Moth guys speaking up. Your tone was one of a jilted lover undergoing shocking pains of the heart! Are you sure you are alright. It is not too late to take up my recent generous offer on the Prozac.

Please don't ever leave this forum; as I for one almost get up in the morning exclusively to see what pearls you have delivered to us today!

I am trying to understand that you hav'nt given much detail of the design which might be at a more advanced stage than many of us think.
If this is because of patent protection issues, I suggest that you forget them. I have also been down the patent road in my own field (not boats) and real protection requires patents in all countries, at exorbitant costs; retaining of specialist patent attorneys in each country, also at exorbitant costs.
Then the Chinese Government can do what they want in a joint venture with some manufacturer over there. How are you going to fight that?
Forget the patent thing, I did eventually, as it makes no sense.
If you were to share some of the detail with us on this forum, you probably would get more constructive and sympathetic argument from people that are knowledgeable, and it might assist your project, but not with money though.

Doug Lord

08-24-2006, 05:35 PM

Once again for emphasis and for those who have not read and understood it the first two times. There is an incredible amount of detail here especially considering that there are several proprietary aspects to this design. In fact(and I may be wrong), I don't think there is another small sailboat design(much less a foiler!) under 20' described in more detail anywhere on the "Sailboats" forum.I've edited the original post down to just the specifications and features of the 14.
I'll answer almost any question about these specs.....

[QUOTE
See drawings in Post 15 ,this thread
--------------------------------
TARGET SPECIFICATIONS / aeroSKIFF 14 / based on 250lb. max crew-drawings in post 15 based on 220lb. max crew.
-------------------------------------------
1) LOA 14'8" Beam 12'(drawings in post 15 show 10' beam-beam may be increased to reduce buoyancy pod size and to help make crew weight range wider)
-------------------------------------------
2) Target ready to fly boat weight: 120 lb.s
--------------------------------------------
3) Max Crew 250lb.s ; target minimum crew 120lb. -----------------------------------------------
4) Flying weight: 370lb.s
-----------------------------------------------
5) SA 143 sq.ft. square topped, camber induced , main only, unstayed mast ,extended luff, modified wishbone, midboom sheeting.
-----------------------------------------------
6) Standard main foil area 1.68 sq.ft.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Mainfoil loading @ 80% 176lb. sq. ft.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Rudder foil area 50% mainfoil area.
-----------------------------------------------
9) SA/mainfoil area: 85sq. ft. per sq.ft. foil area.
-----------------------------------------------
10) "Wing Loading"( all up weight divided by SA) =2.58lb.s per sq.ft. SA.
------------------------------------------------
11) Draft ,off foils; foils extended= 3.75'-variable.
===============================================
Features
===============================================
1) High speed rig with sail design by Barry Spanier; mast design and engineering by Eric Sponberg.Forward third of sail comes completely down to the deck; the boom is a modified version of a wishbone boom with a cross member just forward of mid length that takes the mainsheet. The sheet is led to a traveller on the forward beam allowing the sheet to come from forward. A twin vang set up will be used should a vang be required.
-----------------------------------------------
2) Foils retract to facilitate beach launching.
-----------------------------------------------
3) Sliding single bench seat; slides easily and contains ballast compartment for one design class weight equalization system.Motion control system that prevents runaway seat in adverse situations.
----------------------------------------------
4) Standard foils optimized for low speed takeoff; optional tip extentions; optional high speed foils.
-----------------------------------------------
5) Buoyancy pods approx 1.56 cu' per side; larger optional pods available for training.(see approx 3 cu. ft. pods illustrated in the sketches in post #15)
-----------------------------------------------
6)Rudder: unique design slides up and down in daggerboard style slot; stepped rudder flap designed to allow variable rudder area between non foiling and foiling; Target is to have rudder throw and sensitivity the same on or off
foils.
-----------------------------------------------
7) Double ended hull facilitates earliest 0 to takeoff speed; facillitates pitch change to allow early takeoff though foil system may not require this.
-----------------------------------------------
8) Trampoline each side with heel cutouts allowing quick, secure seat movement.
-----------------------------------------------
9) Foils designed to take loads imposed by jumping which can be initiated by twisting hiking stick(s).System bypasses wand but still utilizes forward /rear foil interconnect.
-----------------------------------------------
10) Variable main foil "gear shift" angle of incidence adjustment. From "set it and forget it" to fine tuning main foil drag.
-----------------------------------------------
11) Exceptionally wide crew weight range ; one design cass races wil be sailed at the 250 lb.s crew weight. Speed runs will be able to be made with lower crew weight as long as RM is addressed.
----------------------------------------------
12) Wand controlled altitude with height adjustment. Set it and forget it or tweak it. Unique averaging wand system to improve choppy water response including fore and aft foil interconnect and wand bypass for smoother flying and better jumps.
----------------------------------------
Jumping is an important part of this foiler design because we think it will add to the value of the boat and to the fun of flying this foiler.[/QUOTE]

Chris Ostlind

08-24-2006, 06:21 PM

Doug Lord quote, once more for emphasis "In fact, one idea that we favor is to make the sale of an aeroSKIFF contingent on completion of the foiler course."

Ya plan on selling lots of boats then, do ya?

Certainly, this is music to the ears of anyone wanting to invest, start seeing returns and hoping that the celebrity value of Doug's association will make the difference.

In an empirical kind of way, this is truly admirable... this whole, school requirement thing. Unfortunately, it carries with it an onus of extreme difficulty associated with foiling boats and this boat specifically.

I can just hear the pissed-off dealer in San Francisco now, "Oh, and by the way, the purchase price does not include your obligation to fly to, what is it, Gulf Coast Florida, where you will have to pay to be in the local motel along with food and also pay to learn to drive the bloody thing. What's that? Cancel the deal? You can't cancel the deal when you put down earnest money. Oh, you say because the earnest money was drawn on Visa, they will simply refuse to pay me. Why... why, I'm calling Doug right now"

And it's soon after, that the man with the money behind the whole scheme starts making noise about taking away the tooling and the spare parts inventory and the rights to the name itself. Since you never had any money to hire an attorney to begin with, he wins by default because he carries a bigger hammer than you.

Game Over

Nope, make a simpler, easier to sail boat, junk the obligation school idea and start hitting the road with your dream under your arm. Complicated products with umpteen strings attached is not the way to win friends as a start-up outfit.

It's almost as if you did this marketing plan by establishing a dreamy, tough to position product and then worked backwards arranging all the parameters until they fell into place according to your assumed expectations for an outcome. Cherry picking the substantiation and ignoring all the vast numbers of warning signs along the road is not an effective management style if you seek a proper conclusion. If it doesn't get you fired, it'll get you out of business.

Have you guys even bothered with a full-tilt, boating public survey that asked specific questions about foilers as well as general marine opinions, or is all this just pure supposition on your part? Ask Eric: If you don't have the data, you are just guessing. Because the product is so new and has so little overall awareness in the marine public's consciousness, it's not that same box of tools that sells El Toro's or Melges 24's that will get you to the finish line on this.

To begin with, those boats look like boats. Not a big problem for product recognition. You have a big problem in that regard. If you don't believe that to be true, then why do so many adults find it virtually impossible to name any important person in the US Gov't by photograph when these same people are in the news nearly everyday. Foilers are not on the Evening News everyday and so they stand a much lower chance of having product recognition. Ya, just gotta make it easy on the folks who spend their money and that usually means you have to spend the money to show them the way.

Once more for emphasis for those who didn't get it the first time...

You need more money than the figure you trotted-out... waaaay more. And you need more honesty in your idealistic marketing methodology.

Doug Lord

08-24-2006, 07:31 PM

I apologize for making it so difficult to add up the total estimated investment required as we projected it last year. As you can see the approximate total is:
$120,000+ triple $120,0000= $480,000 which, of course, is substantially more than the amount that was misquoted twice now.

I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.
=================================
In the business plan I think the estimate was around $120,000
=================================
to get the completed design and structural engineering from Eric, one set of quickie molds(suitable for a few parts), two complete hulls, decks, pods etc.,custom carbon masts and unique wishbone booms with up to 10 rig iterations to be tried(designed and engineered by Eric and built by a production composites mast builder). This included work from Barry Spanier on sail design with at least 10 different sails. This amount included us full time for a specific
time and included something like four months of two boat testing BEFORE being ready for production tooling. This was not conceived of as backyard project but as a first class development
plan to be funded properly or not at all. It requires that not only do we have a committment for the extensive(and methodical) development of two sailing prototypes and the time for testing but that we have the funding from that point to a fully functioning business including patent protection on developments that merit it.
===================================
(This amount is approximately triple the prototype development costs).
====================================

Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves and we don't consider a less ambitious version of the project to be worthwhile. The result of pursuing this course of action may be no boat at all or it may be one of the most outstanding new dinghy foilers ever built.All or nothing-done right or not at all.....

CT 249

08-24-2006, 08:35 PM

Edited. I had a little parody here, but it's sort of like Tom Lehrer felt; you get to the stage where life is beyond parody when you're asking half a mill when you can't be bothered to build a prototype (like Andy P, Wardie, and lots of other foiler sailors have done) and you tell world champs who have won champs on foilers that they are wrong about jumping, when you have never jumped a foiler. That's like telling Tiger Woods how to improve his swing.

Paul B

08-24-2006, 08:36 PM

the approximate total is:
$120,000+ triple $120,0000= $480,000

Half a million US$ before the first product is produced? What sort of realistic business plan is that? How many boats need to be sold each year just to pay the debt service? How many years to pay down the debt?

This gets more funny/pathetic with every post.

Chris Ostlind

08-24-2006, 08:49 PM

CT,

That is just so rich it makes me all misty. You have the genuine article when it comes to writing skills.

Chris

marshmat

08-24-2006, 10:49 PM

I wouldn't dare call it a "people's" boat if it sells over ten grand including tax and freight... what is the projected cost per unit? At an 8-10% margain as most companies in any field try to achieve as a minimum, $10k per skiff would still take almost 500 boats to break even. Your manufacturing costs would have to be under seven grand per finished boat to meet this. And that's assuming people will buy a $10k skiff- that's still pretty pricey. Can you do it?

Doug Lord

08-24-2006, 11:02 PM

I think it's possible but I don't think the "Peoples Foiler" limit is $10,000 for an easy to sail, first class foiler with the features this boat will have.

marshmat

08-24-2006, 11:36 PM

What's your target price? If you're trying to bring foiling to the masses, then price more than anything will determine how people react to what is, to most sailors and the general public, a pretty radical boat.

frosh

08-25-2006, 12:06 AM

I think it's possible but I don't think the "Peoples Foiler" limit is $10,000 for an easy to sail, first class foiler with the features this boat will have.

Doug, I am so excited that my latest project, the trimaran with planing amas was launched yesterday and in 18 knots of wind achieved 29 knots on the GPS. This is a factor of 1.6 times wind speed. This was on day one and I have a huge amount to learn about the boat. We did not even have the asymmetric kite on board and we were on a true beam reach when we hit our maximum speed.
I now have a prototype, which has cost me about $7000 Australian.
From this I will be talking to a composites engineer to look at how best to produce the components in a mixture of glass and carbon and naturally full epoxy construction. I expect to have to do one more prototype in slightly different materials as my vaka is monocoque 2mm marine plywood, and this will be unsuitable for mass production. I hope to be able to get a two person 18ft. boat on the market here for around $15000 Australian.
What do you think of MY business plan?

Raggi_Thor

08-25-2006, 03:43 AM

Doug, I think I asked about one year agoe: Why don't you just build one boat, a prototype????

frosh

08-25-2006, 04:03 AM

Doug, I think I asked about one year agoe: Why don't you just build one boat, a prototype????

Raggi, I agree with you 100%. Dougs reluctance to build a 14ft. (actual size) prototype even in exterior plywood and use his existing rig, existing hydrofoils; I understand he owns two sets, is absolutely crazy! No investor, even a lunatic will finance a boat based on smooth talking only! :eek:

Doug Lord

08-25-2006, 08:37 AM

Matt, the boat should cost under $15,000 ,depending on options,school etc.
------
Raggi,we have a prototype development program described in a previous couple of posts. Building a single one off version of this boat will not happen as we would not learn what we need to know. I've already built sailed and foiled a 16' foiler prototype and am building a 17 footer for my own use :
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
The 17 will use most of the technology on the aeroSKIFF 14 plus much that is entirely new including a movable ballast system. Much has been learned from the 16 and will be learned from the 17. The 17 is using the same foil system used on the 16 and most of the parts from the 16. It is simply impractical to build an accurate "one off" of the fourteen without proper funding since to properly test it requires that the prototype is as close to the final boat as possible. That requires lots of new tooling albeit "quicky" tooling and lots of money to do right.
==========================
Prototype development plan from previous post:
----------------
I'm relatively satisfied with the hull design but the rig, foils, sliding seat, weight equalization system , pods and control systems need experimentation and refinement. Of those the hull design , engineering, quicky tooling and the carbon mast and boom tooling will be the most expensive.In the business plan I think the estimate was around $120,000 to get the completed design and structural engineering from Eric, one set of quickie molds(suitable for a few parts), two complete hulls, decks, pods etc.,custom carbon masts and unique wishbone booms with up to 10 rig iterations to be tried(designed and engineered by Eric and built by a production composites mast builder). This included work from Barry Spanier on sail design with at least 10 different sails. This amount included us full time for a specific
time and included something like four months of two boat testing BEFORE being ready for production tooling. This was not conceived of as backyard project but as a first class development
plan to be funded properly or not at all. It requires that not only do we have a committment for the extensive(and methodical) development of two sailing prototypes and the time for testing but that we have the funding from that point to a fully functioning business including patent protection on developments that merit it.(This amount is approximately triple the prototype development costs).
Eric and I don't have the funds to do it ourselves and we don't consider a less ambitious version of the project to be worthwhile. The result of pursuing this course of action may be no boat at all or it may be one of the most outstanding new dinghy foilers ever built.All or nothing-done right or not at all.....

frosh

08-25-2006, 02:49 PM

Doug, you have posted pics of your Aerofoiler 16 and you have described some of flaws in this design. You have donated the hull to a wind surfing school sans foils and rig.
Then we had the "trapwing" keelboat for your own personal use which you said unequivocally was not the basis for the much vaunted "Peoples Foiler".

Then you described the dimensions and attributes of the next prototype of the "Peoples Foiler", as recently again as yesterday.
From memory, overall length 14' 8" and increased in overall beam to 12'.

QUOTE- Doug Lord:

I've already built sailed and foiled a 16' foiler prototype and am building a 17 footer for my own use :
Trapwing 14-High Performance 14' Keelboat(SDB)-Final Design Conception - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12131
The 17 will use most of the technology on the aeroSKIFF 14 plus much that is entirely new including a movable ballast system. Much has been learned from the 16 and will be learned from the 17. The 17 is using the same foil system used on the 16 and most of the parts from the 16. It is simply impractical to build an accurate "one off" of the fourteen without proper funding.

OK. then. We can all agree that this is your quote. The "fourteen" will not be built without proper funding. We can accept that, although most would argue that a prototype would need to come from the production tooling. Even the very succesful Ian Farrier, built plywood prototypes of his "trailer tri" in his backyard to prove that primarily his new folding system was safe and reliable, and that he had a viable alternative to trailable and slow monohulls at that time.

Suddenly you announce that you are building a "seventeen" based on the lessons learned from the now obsolete Aerofoil 16.
Please explain how it will be possible to build a prototype of the 17, which will further prove the concept you have, and hopefully attract investor funding, when building the 14 as a single prototype is not possible without proper outside funding?
AM I STUPID? as I don't get it!

Doug Lord

08-25-2006, 06:17 PM

The Trapwing 17(described under the Trapwing 14 thread) is the boat I'm building next for myself.The boat will be built as inexpensively as possible using many of the most expensive items from it's predecessor. It is not ,necessarily, a prototype as there are no plans to produce it.I will use it to explore the feasibility of extremely high performance sailing with a "sit in" boat concept that is self righting. It is not designed to attract investor funding-though having it around won't hurt; it is purely experimental and for my personal use. Some of the technology to be used on the aeroSKIFF 14 will be used on the 17 such as hydrofoils(for off the wind foiling only initially), some aspects of the 14 hydrofoil control system and wishbone boom with mid boom sheeting. Most of the 17 technology is HIGHLY experimental including a 20° canting keel tied to a movable ballast wing system.
We have a plan to develop the aeroSKIFF14 into a production boat-should we secure the proper funding- and that includes building two pre production prototypes and extensive ,full time two boat testing prior to the construction of production tooling. Building a single "prototype" is just throwing a little money at some big problems with a guarantee of not providing the information we need on refining the concept to a world class level suitable for production. To do that would be spinning our wheels in the face of a properly funded, carefully thought out, two boat pre-production prototype program .

CT 249

08-25-2006, 07:08 PM

So your old boat did foil well enough to give you a solid base of experience for sailing and design?

Cool! Well done!

Can we see the pics, videos and third-party accounts of the old boat foiling that you're going to show to your potential investors, to prove to them how well it worked? We'll all have to eat a lot of humble pie, of course.

Given that there were at least four boats (Paterson, Ward, Windrush, Prowler) involved in creating the succesful Moth foiler, and guys as experienced as the Bethwaites build about four prototypes to create a new design even in the well-known area of skiff building (Frank built 20 HSPs in 20 years and still didn't create a practical production machine), it's a tribute to you that you will be able to get into production with a ground-breaking craft with just two pre-production prototypes. Well done!

Doug Lord

08-25-2006, 07:17 PM

The 16 was a learning experience; it used a foil control system entirely different than the one on the new boat. Very little foiling experience from the 16 but enough to know that the foils were excellent and they'll be used again with a different control system .
=========================
Gee thanks, CT249! Wow what a change you've gone thru and what courage you have to make such a change. I remember the old days; the early days of the debate on whether foils should be legal on the old Moth forum. How against foilers you were. How sure you were that they would never be able to sail around a course much less win a regatta. How development was the bane of everything good in sailing. How sure you were that if foils were made legal close racing would go down the tubes. And now, courageously recognizing your own lack of foresight back then, you have given the aeroSKIFF 14 project the highest compliment. In a world rife with sarcasm,ridicule,insincerity and downright obnoxious behaviour on forums you come thru like a bright shining light bringing your unique brand of insight to bear on the aeroSKIFF 14 and giving the most coveted kind of encouagement.
You've brought the highest level of journalistic excelence to your own personal battle with foiling and the change shown in your previous post is extraordinary. You must surely be one of the worlds most astute observers!
I can't thank you enough: it means so much and is so very, very relevant.

CT 249

08-27-2006, 03:46 AM

Actually, by July 19, 2004 at 9:22 a.m., I posted on the IMCA forum that I was "thinking of turning the old scow into a foiler if the CB case will take it".

So it's rubbish to say I was pushing for a foiler ban.

I'm sure I never said foilers would not be able to sail around a course since they already had.

I'm pretty damn sure I never said they couldn't win a regatta.

I never said that development was the bane of everything in sailing. I did point out that excessive development has hurt many a class and maybe that should be taken into consideration. I own and race in three development classes.

I DID say that history indicates that foilers may not necessarily make the class more popular. The jury is still out.

I DID point out that it was wrong to say "if the class doesn't develop much it will die" because Moths that don't develop much (ie British Moths, Europes, US and French Classic Moths, NZ Moths and scow Moths) are actually vastly more popular than the modern Moth. They still are.

I DID point out that the idea of a pro racing circuit for foilers was unlikely to be as succesful as the 18 Footer pro racing circuit (which died) or the windsurfer pro racing circuit (which died for some time, as far as course racing went). The pro foiler circuit certainly has yet to prove itself.

I DID point out that the class has banned things in the past (catamarans, traps, sliding planks, tunnel hulls, windsurfers) and therefore there WAS a precedent that could be followed. That was correct and it is still the case.

I DID point out that while foiling may be great fun, other things that are great fun in sailing (ie wavejumping or other jumps on windsurfers) were not as popular as "normal" sailing. That is still the case.

I DID point out that the claim that development classes have to develop was incorrect and can never change rules to ban developments was incorrect, as many development classes including the Moth have banned many things in the past (pumping, cats, traps, etc).

I merely pointed out some factual errors in the pro-foiler case - just as I have pointed out here some errors in the anti-foiling case and have said that the foiling Moth is now probably the world's fastest singlehanded mono (counting boards), that it can (in the right conditions) beat world-class 49ers, and that the weed isn't such a major problem because even Laser Radials catch weed.

As a Moth owner (unlike you) whose first-ever boat was a Moth (with all that means in feeling for the class) I obviously had a perfect right to correct factual errors made by some people in class forums.

And the non-foilers were not a tiny minority a few years back - Moth class polls showed that in 2001, 52 Mothies would NOT consider foils, versus 42 who would. In 2002, it was 17 to 12 in favour of the "Yes" crowd. It's not as if those not falling over to get foilers were rare.

Chris Ostlind

08-27-2006, 09:44 PM

So somebody wants to put foilers in the Olympics?

Well, be glad the wheels turn, oh so slowly in the IOC, as the probable conditions for the next Olympics are going to be nothing short of, shall we say.... interesting. Read this report from the dry run regatta that is going on right now at Qingdao Olympic Sailing Center and project the realities for a bunch of high strung foilers getting thumped around in these conditions. Kinda makes the argument about Rohan's sore knee at the World's look prety much moot:

COMMENTS FROM QINGDAO
* Carrie Howe for Team Seven Sailing, USA Yngling: What is it they say?
Be careful what you wish for! We've been wishing for wind and we got it
this morning - twentyfive knots of breeze, waves and huge swells. These
were lively conditions to say the least. They were so lively that
seasickness became a potential problem for some of the US team members
as they rocked and rolled, waiting for the first start gun at 1300
hours. Before we left the dock it was pouring. The breeze was awesome
and we were excited. We had action even before we left the dock,
securing the tents we use for our waterfront preparations before they
blew away. Then more adrenalin on the water as we checked out the
conditions in monster swells that must have been half the height of our
mast.

It stayed that way from 0600 until noon when the wind died completely
and we were left rolling and slamming around in the leftover swell and
waves. Adding to that, the current was ripping and making it impossible
to stay near the race committee without a tow from our coach boat. From
noon on, we had a four-hour wait for conditions to improve. Several US
team members had problems with seasickness and it was pretty well
impossible to stay in the boats in those conditions. We bailed out and
got into the rigid inflatable coach boat and took the Yngling in tow.
I've been searching for a metaphor to sum up the situation today. I
guess it's like getting suited up and psyched up for an ice hockey match
or figure skating, only to find that the rink has melted. No fun, that's
for sure.

Chris Ostlind

08-27-2006, 09:54 PM

Actually, Doug, I see nothing of recognition in the post. Instead i see a guy who is using the wonderful dance of sarcasm to illuminate your inability to produce a proper prototype to measure-up to all the unlimited hype.

Your own attempt at sarcasm was, in fact, rather poorly worded in response and the result is that you look to be all dewy-eyed with personal satisfaction when there's none to be had.

Geez, Doug, what would this take... perhaps six sheets of 3mm marine ply, about 25 yards of 6 oz. glass, a proper multichine design and that awesome rig and foil set you squirreled away. Or, you could go it nicely with a set of forms and a whole pile of strips. Surely you can muster-up that tiny bit of materials to bang out this wonder boat of yours?

Come on Bubba, get your butt into the garage and get busy. The world is waiting for the purest inspiration from your crystal clear vision. Show us that a tired old bag of air can actually build a boat.

frosh

09-03-2006, 11:25 PM

Hi Doug, please, please refer to my posting regarding your severe case of OCD

Doug Lord

09-03-2006, 11:31 PM

The list grows ; see #11 below:

Here's a list of all the boats(projects) under 20' that I know have foiled or that may foil in the future:
1) M4- the unquestioned leader as of tonight.
2) Bladerider-may or may not be a Peoples Foiler
with pods I'd say yes; with pods and the big main they talk about I'd say definitely.Big news: Rohan Veal has signed full time with KA Sail -builder of the Bladerider and they are bringing a boat to the Annapolis Sailboat show Oct. 6-8th 2006. Shows a substantial committment to promoting the Bladerider.
3) RS 600- has foiled-no other info
4) I14's- several have flown but full flying foil systems are illegal so a spin-off might qualify.
5) 49er- somebody somewhere has a set of Fastacraft foils specifically for this boat but
that's all I know.
6) Aussie 18 reported by Baronvonwhatever appeared to have surface piercing foils and would be an unlikely candidate.
7) Steve Clarks 17-18 with surface piercing foils-maybe but unlikely with those kinds of foils.
8) Ct's mystery boat-unlikely if using surface piercing foils.( he said it used a foil system discarded by the Moth class if I understood correctly)
9) aeroSKIFF 14 -project stalled but not dead; close to the best if properly funded and succesfully executed.
10) Hoot-has some potential; see previous post # 67 and DA....
11) See this thread: foiling 18 - Boat Design Forums -probably not a Peoples Foiler candidate but a historic accomplishment nonetheless: the largest two foil monofoiler to foil yet-and have the pictures(VIDEO) to go with it.Additionally, I've done some calculations in the 18 thread that show that this boat appears to have the same ability to sail upwind on foils as a Moth. Only question is comparative efficiency of the rigs
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=103540
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Thats a lot of Peoples Foiler wanabe's-someone, somewhere, sometime from now will put it all together-count on it! And there may be others I don't know about but when I do they'll be written up here.... And good luck to us all......