America's Cup declining?

[Neverbehind]

These last few years, i think that the America's Cup has declined horribly. I mean really, guys selling out racing for other countries, what sense of nationalism can you get from that? Not much. I personally hope that someday they go to a smaller boat, a 12 meter at least! As most people can't relate to or understand a 70-something foot boat. It seems that they might be straying a bit far from most people's reality. Although i don't enjoy it as much as i used to (its alright) at least its televised sailing. Does this upset anyone else?

[safewalrus]

Totally lost it's sense of reality - this is a big boat race for big boats not wierd futuristic styles from outlandish worlds!

It was, once upon a time about a bit of classical style - not sure what it's about now, lost interest!

[gggGuest]

I mean really, guys selling out racing for other countries, what sense of nationalism can you get from that?

What you mean unlike the 30s when the US crews where mostly Scandinavian? or 1983 when the US boat was designed by a Dutchman or or or...

[safewalrus]

Exactly:cool:

[bhnautika]

America’s cup deed of gift was between yacht clubs not nations.

[Neverbehind]

Maybe so, but it goes deeper beyond that. If a guy crews one america's cup for one team and then gets a load ofcash thrown at him to join another, thats selling out. I can deal with guys sailing for different countries, but if they're just going for money-that upsets me a little. Points well taken everyone.

[Paul B]

I personally hope that someday they go to a smaller boat, a 12 meter at least! As most people can't relate to or understand a 70-something foot boat.

You mean people can't relate to sailing a "70-something foot boat", but can relate to sailing a 67 foot long 12 metre?

[Neverbehind]

True a 12 metre is anywhere between 60-70 feet long-and in that case not much smaller than the current America's Cup class, but it's a classic boat that many sailors can familiarize with. That being said, maybe the new America's Cup class will be a classic in the future and most sailors will be able to familiarize with it, but since the new class's introduction the America's Cup seems to have lost some of its importance (at least for me).

[safewalrus]

Why not put it up for adoption by some car driving cranks in formula 1 (what a bloody waste of time that is - bit like having an intelligent conversation with an Engineer) and then we could get rid of the whole stupid thing! :rolleyes:

[mholguin]

True a 12 metre is anywhere between 60-70 feet long-and in that case not much smaller than the current America's Cup class, but it's a classic boat that ...

I just can not take the image out of my head of somebody some decades ago, complaining about this new futuristic 12 metres replacing the classic J-boats....

[usa2]

the International Rule (23, 12, 8, 6, 5.5, and 2.4 metres) has been around since a little after 1900.(1906?-Heatherbell, 1st 12 metre)

The Universal Rule ( J, M, N, P, Q, R, and S classes) came into being after WWI IIRC.

so the 12's really werent more futuristic, they were just a hell of a lot cheaper.

The America's Cup was never about nationalism, the NYYC introduced that when they were being beat at their own game. Thats also how DC got support in '87, because he went around to companies and had his public relations people say something along the lines of " Hey you are an American, you must have been pretty upset after we lost the America's Cup. How would you like to help us win it back?"
And of course all the rich companies and their executives had no idea that the America in the title "America's Cup" was the name of a boat, and not the supporting nation behind the contest.

Today's cup is exactly what it always has been, it just isnt disguised or obscured as it used to be.

[TimClark]

Alright I understand your point, but I felt that way before I learned about the real design proccess and why keeping it "classic" wasn't always better. You think this looks futurisitic, think of how the Australians beat us with that revolutionary keel design that changed the world of keelboat racing. If you think about it, the Americas Cup has been a gradual evolution. It's not like they were racing wooden schooners and then immediately jumped to the Carbon IACC Boats. The boats went from wood, to metal, to fiberglass, to carbon. It's tough to realize, I too wish I could go back to the times with the wooden or steel hulled boats, but we can't change that, so we have to deal with it and go with the flow.

[sharpii2]

How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?

That's where I think things are different.

I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.

On another tack.

The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days.

Much unlike the handicap rule fleet races I grew up with (where it could take several days after the race to figure out who won), we now have lots of handicap free, class boat races (like the cup class itself) where the first one accross the line takes the prize.

Also, the sense of national drama is over. For most of its life, the cup resided in the New York Yacht Club trophy case. (reputedly with a note saying something to the effect: "Here sits the America's Cup. Or the head of the person responsible for losing it.") The big suspense was: would the mightiest military/industrial nation on earth hang on to one of its most famous symbols of technological/sporting prowess, or would some upstart nation get to tweek her nose with an unlikely (though probably, in the long run, inevitable) upset.

Well, pardners. That question was answered over a generation ago.

Any more AC questions?

Other than when the first drowning catastrophy is going to happen when one of these over stressed, under built, monsters goes straight to Davy Jones' locker without first going through the formality of ditching her crew.

If the IACC is to be saved from self inflicted extinction, I think it needs the following reforms:

1.) Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible).

2.) Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community. Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help. Aso, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too.

3.) Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient. (as well as to insure enough coinage gets tossed)

4.) Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)

5.) Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice.

I know most of these principles were not inherent in the old cup competition, but then the cup itself was not a 'free agent' either.

Things have changed.

Bob

[safewalrus]

Lets face it people the so called America's Cup is a bit of a con! A Yacht club takes a vessel of a completly different design to that of everybody else (it was a fishing boat for Christsake) to a far off land (who just happens to be the Biggest and Bestest in the world at the time!) The aim being to 'rub the big countries nose in it!' We'll race your fishing boats with our fishing boat; of course they bloody won it, was like driving a Formula 1 at a cart race! (different countries different methods)! (the words 'fix' come to mind) they then took the ornate load of rubbish home and put it up in the yacht club with the words 'aint we good' on it!

Don't take this the wrong way but the modern version is something along the lines of Saddam Huesain claiming he won the elections in Iraq, no body else knew there was a contest or particularly cared until afterwards! Most still don't! It was later hi-jacked to suit somebody else's itinerey years later (al Qaeda and 'sammy bin liner')

[TimClark]

How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?

That's where I think things are different.

I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.

On another tack.

The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days.

Much unlike the handicap rule fleet races I grew up with (where it could take several days after the race to figure out who won), we now have lots of handicap free, class boat races (like the cup class itself) where the first one accross the line takes the prize.

Also, the sense of national drama is over. For most of its life, the cup resided in the New York Yacht Club trophy case. (reputedly with a note saying something to the effect: "Here sits the America's Cup. Or the head of the person responsible for losing it.") The big suspense was: would the mightiest military/industrial nation on earth hang on to one of its most famous symbols of technological/sporting prowess, or would some upstart nation get to tweek her nose with an unlikely (though probably, in the long run, inevitable) upset.

Well, pardners. That question was answered over a generation ago.

Any more AC questions?

Other than when the first drowning catastrophy is going to happen when one of these over stressed, under built, monsters goes straight to Davy Jones' locker without first going through the formality of ditching her crew.

If the IACC is to be saved from self inflicted extinction, I think it needs the following reforms:

1.) Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible).

2.) Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community. Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help. Aso, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too.

3.) Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient. (as well as to insure enough coinage gets tossed)

4.) Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)

5.) Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice.

I know most of these principles were not inherent in the old cup competition, but then the cup itself was not a 'free agent' either.

Things have changed.

Bob

I understand the nationality thing. But you have to realize that these "carbon egg shells" won't last long. Look at the VO70's they are all carbon just like the IACC boats, things are beginning to change. It's no longer about how long a boat will last but speed. I see you wouldn't want people dying in the AC races, but if you see the amount of boats around the course that are at the ready to pick up people from a boat that is sinking, I don't think there will be any deaths with this if the sailors are using common sense. I also see how you want sailors being in gail force winds with the huge sail areas that you speak of, that's asking for atleast one death right there. And with the whole thing about only one boat per syndicate, I think that it is allowed, they did it with 12 metres, its so you can practice with another boat, speed tune, make a boat that fixes the flaws in the first boat. It's very hard to make a 70+ foot perfect carbon boat the first time.

[bhnautika]

Sharpii2 I have some questions about your points on AC


“How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?”
Why should we care?

“I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.”
Why? The trickle down effect has never been the reason for race boats.

“The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days”
Let’s face it gets more attention now than 30 years ago.

“Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible). “
Wouldn’t this give some countries a big advantage over others (back to the future)

“Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community”
Which part? The dinghy,skiff,multihulls,etc

“Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help”
Is that ocean racing?

“Also, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too”
Like a box rule?

“Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient.”
Why is raising the danger to crew necessary to the spectacle?

“Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)”
Would they just spend more money on tank testing? It could also favour some teams with more access to that type information and knowledge form past races over a new players.

“Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice”
We have that now with the Olympics! Do you think that works well for the athletes?

[safewalrus]

Of course you could always make 'em do it where they originally did it- once round the Isle of Wight on a set day, conditions not withstanding! You leave THEN, you go round (whichever way suits) First one over the line wins! Sailing times can be the handicap, smaller boats go earlier sort of stuff! Works for the 'round the Island race' once a year! (scares the pants of the professional ferrymen as they approach certain points -that bloody big gaggle off Ryde pier! with a schedule to keep to! SH ee ee t!) But the camera people could enjoy a few weeks filming the preparation and it wouldn't cause too much congestion! And as the 'Host Nation' probably will never be able to afford the ballyhoo of a boat again, there's no nasty problems on race day (and as I don't drive for any of the ferry companies anymore no 'bloody yotty' is going to get delibratly rammed! moi?! as if?):P

[gggGuest]

Of course you could always make 'em do it where they originally did it- once round the Isle of Wight on a set day, conditions not withstanding!

And if there had been any kind of handicap America (a boat built specifically for winning money by gambling) would have lost by a mile.

But yes, instead of these carbon fibre eggshells lets go back to nice safe traditional boats like Defender in 1895, which literally destroyed itself with electrolytic corrosion, or Reliance in 1903, which was so unseaworthy that the rules were changed to prevent racing in a strong breeze, or, or , or...

[safewalrus]

Or better still as I've said before give it to the formula 1 car racers and let seafarers get on with being just that!

[sharpii2]

Sharpii2 I have some questions about your points on AC


“How many of these Carbon fiber egg shells will still be sailing ten years from now?”
Why should we care?

“I also don't see much boating product spin off comming off these high lead coffin ships.”
Why? The trickle down effect has never been the reason for race boats.

“The America's Cup Race has a lot more competition for attention these days”
Let’s face it gets more attention now than 30 years ago.

“Make the crews really national (and the boat building and design if possible). “
Wouldn’t this give some countries a big advantage over others (back to the future)

“Change the rule to make the boats more relevent to the general sailing community”
Which part? The dinghy,skiff,multihulls,etc

“Making them race in anthing from a slight breeze to a full gale would probably help”
Is that ocean racing?

“Also, putting an absolute limit on draft, sail area, and ballast to displacement ratio could help too”
Like a box rule?

“Allowing really huge boats under these conditions, by making the sail area and draft limits high, to raise the drama quotient.”
Why is raising the danger to crew necessary to the spectacle?

“Allow only one boat per syndicate. (get it right the first time boys.)”
Would they just spend more money on tank testing? It could also favour some teams with more access to that type information and knowledge form past races over a new players.

“Having the actual races in a neutral venue which would be decided by lottery with each competitor being able to cast in its favorite choice”
We have that now with the Olympics! Do you think that works well for the athletes?

Allowing huge boats does not increase danger to the crew. Or safety either, for that matter. That all depends on design. And good and bad design elements are encouraged by any rule. A good rule encourages more good design elements than bad.

Why not a box rule? It may produce better boats. It would have to be tried, though. A mini can sail in seas that would sink most IACC boats.

The AC should be a premium event, not a pond race. Yes it should be an off shore race. Like it originally was.

Keel boats, of course. The multis have their 'Little America's Cup' which, as far as I can tell, has produed its own fleet of flimsy pond racers. And dinghys have their own ferocious competions.

One way or the other, you are giving one country an advantage over another.
My hope is to make this more a matter of national pride. And less a matter of who can throw the most gold coins around.

Yes. There should be some 'trickle down'. Those boats are built for people and corporations that often have the right to legally rob us. And 'trickle down' is almost always thier sole justification for that right.

Maybe the neutral venue is a bit harsh. But allowing the defender sole discretion on venue gives too much advantage to the home team. Maybe allowing the defender to present a choice of, say, three posible home waters for the race and allowing the challengers to pick one would be a better idea.
This would happen AFTER the boats were built, of course.

Bob

[bhnautika]

The question was America’s cup declining? So
The amount of money being spent
The amount of technology
Media coverage
Public recognition
General controversy
The America’s cup is what it is. A two-boat race, by two yacht clubs in a boat and place designated by the defender. We have other boat races for national pride, Olympics and Admirals cup, it always had both private and corporate money driving it and they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t get something out of it. So too far offshore is not an option (out of sight, out of mind) I don’t think it has ever been a true Corinthian race.

[Vega]

If a guy crews one america's cup for one team and then gets a load ofcash thrown at him to join another, thats selling out. ...., but if they're just going for money....

Get real...that is the normal standard in all international top sports, from soccer to F1. Of course they go for the money.
If it is a club's race, then the clubs would buy the best crews they can afford, never minding the nationality. The only way around it, would be to make it a Nation’s race, then you would have to be a national to represent your country.....but you want it to remain a club’s race, don’t you?

[usa2]

It's not supposed to be a nation's race, the only reason people view it that way is because they don't understand the story behind the title "America's Cup". Most people see it as "America's", as in something the country owns, or did, and not as "America's", as named after a yacht(working schooner).

[Vega]

It's not supposed to be a nation's race, the only reason people view it that way is because they don't understand the story behind the title "America's Cup". .

Of course, it is supposed to be a club race, but when you think of Alinghi or Oracle you think of Corporations....So now is it a corporation's race? Anyway for racing a boat you need the kind of money only a big Corporation or a nation can provide...So I guess that the Club thing has already had its days.

Don't take me wrong, I love that race and I like the boats. The only thing I don´t like is that stupid rule that permits them not to race if there is too much wind. They should be capable of racing in almost any conditions, except a full storm.

[Neverbehind]

these boats are too weakly designed for offshore racing, remeber what happened to new zealand last cup?did they even finish a race?:confused:

[usa2]

Well, most clubs cannot afford to finance a challenge these days. So you get a few rich guys who are members of clubs, but technically are personally financing a challenge. Then they decide, why should i pay the whole price, why not get the company which i am the big bad boss of to sponsor the challenge? Larry Ellison is a perfect example of this. Even Sayonara, his ILC/IMS maxi, had ORACLE plastered on her mainsail and spinnakers.

[oldsailor7]

Francis Herreshoff, who took out the original patent for the Catamaran, designed and built many a monohull AC contender.
If he could see the AC cats of today he would mighty proud i'm sure. :D

[Doug Lord]

Francis Herreshoff, who took out the original patent for the Catamaran, designed and built many a monohull AC contender.
If he could see the AC cats of today he would mighty proud i'm sure. :D
==============
Well said !! You can watch the AC World Series live tomorrow-link in the "Multihulls" forum(pinned tomorrow)

[eyschulman]

So would an American rather watch a football-baseball-soccer(here in Seattle 64,000 attendance)game or an exciting sailboat race? I can even get bored if Im not driveing.

[Dirteater]

sounds like we should make the America's Cup (Multi-hulls) it an Olympic sport as well :D

[eyschulman]

If you can get 10,000 small multis to race around a big island with lots of man eating sharks and each crew member gets all there relatives and freinds and lots of sponsors rooting for them along with a million dollar prize and some blood spread in the water you might get some interest and major media coverage. Maybe we also throw in some major celebrities and presidential candidates as crew many people would get excited about that especialy with the sharks.

[CatBuilder]

Or at least race all at once like club racing. There needs to be some excitement, like a dozen ac45's on a standard course.

[oldsailor7]

Lol on both those posts Guys. :D

[Doug Lord]

If you don't think there has been excitement in this AC World Series you missed the Plymouth, England venue......

[sharpii2]

I think the real problem with the AC is that it is a guilded age relic.

Just like the last half of the 19th century, we are going through another 'guilded age', where the top 1% are scarfing up almost all the disposable cash. The to 1%, even among them, has the vast majority of the cash and control.

Now this thing looks like nothing more than potchlock pissing contest between people I think are vastly over rewarded for their 'success' and can afford to blow their money on extremely expensive throw away toys, while everyone else is expected to live under 'austerity'.

The whole thing has a bad smell to it that it didn't have during the 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. The economic disparities were even greater then, but there was a whiff of real opportunity in the air. The technology improvements of the era were improving just about everyones life. Even those at the bottom. Now, the technology improvements serve mainly to disemploy and disempower people who don't have the means to keep up.

The only real opportunity most people have is getting a good degree from a good university. But now that requires a mountain of debt that is so high that it is questionably worth doing. Imagine starting a family with TWO mortgages. One for your house and one for your degree.

Add to this that these races are practially mill pond regattas, where, if I even watch, I root for both boats breaking up and having these 'RB's arguing over whose boat broke up first to determine who 'won' the race.

It seems, more and more, the 'race' is won by the side that has the best lawyers. Some may argue with considerable justice that that was always the case. Maybe so. But such events live and die on image. And 'smell'. Now both are bad.

The very least that can be done to salvge this thing would be to require actual seaworthiness. Why not go back to requiring them to cross an ocean on their own bottom to prove their worthiness to compete?

And why not require the 'owner' to be the skipper. Then at least I can admire his/her capabilities as a seaman/woman and perhaps, for the moment, forget about their ridiculous wealth.

Now, with global mercenary crews and global mercenary designers, such is just rubbed in my face.

May the man with the most money win.

[CatBuilder]

Or... Maybe hold the next ac off the coast of Somalia? :)

[sharpii2]

Or... Maybe hold the next ac off the coast of Somalia? :)

As Gomez would say: "A capital idea!"

Now the boats would have a real reason to be fast.

[Doug Lord]

I think the real problem with the AC is that it is a guilded age relic.
Just like the last half of the 19th century, we are going through another 'guilded age', where the top 1% are scarfing up almost all the disposable cash. The to 1%, even among them, has the vast majority of the cash and control.

Now this thing looks like nothing more than potchlock pissing contest between people I think are vastly over rewarded for their 'success' and can afford to blow their money on extremely expensive throw away toys, while everyone else is expected to live under 'austerity'.

The whole thing has a bad smell to it that it didn't have during the 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. The economic disparities were even greater then, but there was a whiff of real opportunity in the air. The technology improvements of the era were improving just about everyones life. Even those at the bottom. Now, the technology improvements serve mainly to disemploy and disempower people who don't have the means to keep up.

The only real opportunity most people have is getting a good degree from a good university. But now that requires a mountain of debt that is so high that it is questionably worth doing. Imagine starting a family with TWO mortgages. One for your house and one for your degree.

Add to this that these races are practially mill pond regattas, where, if I even watch, I root for both boats breaking up and having these 'RB's arguing over whose boat broke up first to determine who 'won' the race.

It seems, more and more, the 'race' is won by the side that has the best lawyers. Some may argue with considerable justice that that was always the case. Maybe so. But such events live and die on image. And 'smell'. Now both are bad.

The very least that can be done to salvge this thing would be to require actual seaworthiness. Why not go back to requiring them to cross an ocean on their own bottom to prove their worthiness to compete?

And why not require the 'owner' to be the skipper. Then at least I can admire his/her capabilities as a seaman/woman and perhaps, for the moment, forget about their ridiculous wealth.

Now, with global mercenary crews and global mercenary designers, such is just rubbed in my face.

May the man with the most money win.
================
I don't think so. The AC this time around has turned the olde America's Cup upside down introducing, for what is probably the first time, something close to the epitome in sailing technology in a run up to the Cup. I think what they are doing course-wise and coverage-wise is a giant leap forward in bringing more people closer than ever to the action-and yes, if the wind blows there is action-lots of it. I, for one, am thankful I've lived long enough to see what I only imagined as a kid. More power to the lucky bastards that get to sail these awesome machines-at least I can watch some of it.
To me this is an extremely postive, awe-inspiring direction for the America's Cup , a direction that will inspire many of us for the rest of our natural life. I thank "mean ole Larry" for having the vision, guts and determination to see this thru!

Starts 4PM EST here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/ac-live-video-stream-november-16-20-a-39268.html
Thanks to Jeff for pinning this link at the top of the multihulls forum to make easy for anyone to take a look w/o having to search!

[oldsailor7]

Doug Lord.(Quote). I, for one, am thankful I've lived long enough to see what I only imagined as a kid. (Quote).

I can relate to that. As a Tidler, I can still recall,in the depths of the biplane era, sitting on my Dads shoulders and watching (and hearing) in awe as the Supermarine S6b roared over Portsmouth common in a skidding turn during the final Schneider Trophy race. It heralded the death of the biplane and lead the way to the development of the advanced monoplanes which we take for granted today. This AC has the same conotation. :eek:

[cyclops2]

Money wins. As it was always supposed to.

The races could care less about anybody except their exclusive groups.

Do not like that attitude ? Do not watch or attend.

[Doug Lord]

Money wins. As it was always supposed to.

The races could care less about anybody except their exclusive groups.

Do not like that attitude ? Do not watch or attend.
=============
Not today: the best financed team got 3rd and 6th!

[cyclops2]

Cheap accountant held back. :)

[NorCal]

As someone who grew up racing Hobie 16s and followed the AC, I've never been more closely engaged to the event and the race. Not to mention I will be able to watch the race from the water, several friend's rooftops, or many hills and beaches surrounding the stadium that is the SF Bay. I have many friends and colleagues who are not boaters and definitely not sailors who are ecstatic to see this racing and have developed an interest in the sport due to the promotion and internet viewing.

The pace, athleticism, and closeness of these preliminary races have provided a good deal of entertainment which reaches the masses. Previous AC were about story and tradition that were mostly out of reach. Not saying that AC45s will be showing up anytime soon but this could expand interest in multihull racing that is fairly accessible like the Hobie 16 (I'm biased).

While not traditional this is engaging a new generation that traditional monohull racing did not. I think Ellison is making an impact on the sport of sailing and the AC that will be positive in the long run.

[david@boatsmith]

I dig it like crazy. These is the fastest boats that they know how to build that will withstand the expected conditions. This is a lot of people who sail for their love of the sport and their living doing what they do and all wanting to win. Does it take lot'a of money? Oh yeah! I think that these boats are very cool! I also think that this world series deal is an excellent way to get those that want to and can to get up to speed on the type of vesels that theywill be competeing in. Lawyers, crossing on their own bottom, too expensive, uber rich boy's toys, that's right and it has always been that way, yeah bring it baby!!!!!!

[david@boatsmith]

It's not supposed to be a nation's race, the only reason people view it that way is because they don't understand the story behind the title "America's Cup". Most people see it as "America's", as in something the country owns, or did, and not as "America's", as named after a yacht(working schooner).

NOT AT ALL

[Doug Lord]

Great comments Norcal and David! Here is the America's Cup thread- in the "Multihulls" forum(yeah!) : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/34th-americas-cup-multihulls-34612.html

And for those that have watched some of the AC 45 racing and haven't seen this comparison with an AC 72 it will blow your mind:

45 vs 72--click on image

[NorCal]

The AC45s and AC72s looking strikingly like the newer Formula 16/18/20 cats. Crew of 5? on the AC 45 and 11? on the AC72? That's a lot of sail to handle. Can't wait for the first one to come out of the molds.