Rhino v. Surfaceworks/Solidworks

[J.Rhodes]

Hello. I am a boat designer in progress. I have decent experience with Surfaceworks and enjoy the surface modeling freedom it provides me. I am thinking of investing more in my software and I do not know if I should upgrade my current surfaceworks/solidworks programs or start fresh with Rhino.
Rhino seems to be popular but I know Surfaceworks. I searched the message board for surfaceworks reviews and found little.

Does anybody have any advice? Any comments are appreciated.

[CGN]

I will upgrade SurfaceWorks/Solidworks and buy rhino, use it as a platform for rendering, or translating files, I won't say surfacing because I guess you are comfortable whit what you have now, but if rendering and translating files is not an issue upgrade and buy Flattener instead.

[J.Rhodes]

I hear that. It seems Rhino (and add-ins) has powerful rendering capabilities. What is Flattener?
Thank you for your reply.
Jesse

[Caldera Boats]

IMOA, The Surfaceworks/Solidworks is a very good combo. Solidworks is a lot more powerful than Rhino. Rhino is kinda old-school, while SW uses the latest modeling techniques. The ease at which SW can make a part or assembly into a drawing is excellent.
I use a combination of FREEShip/Solidworks/Surfacesworks. This has made full solid model rendering and final drawings a matter of days rather than weeks or months.
:)

[CGN]

Hi Rhodes,

Check the Aerohydro site they have a program for plate development called flattener, that works with surfaceworks.

And about the rendering capabilities for rhino, yes, rhino finally has some support form Vray and Brazil rendering engines that are very powerful, don't go with Flamingo I think for the price/results ratio I will go with Vray.

But if you don't need that much power from rhino, for rendering check carrara pro v5, lower cost than Rhino/Vray combination, very powerful rendering and quite good translator, and at the half the cost of Rhino/Vray.

[J.Rhodes]

I am glad I posted this thread. The learning curve is now not quite as steep. I am going to check Carrara proV5. Compatibility is key.
Thanks again guys.
Jesse

[Caldera Boats]

One more note I should add about Solidworks. It has a nice feature called 'lofted sheet' which is primarily used in sheet metal developement, but I have found this to be very useful in creating flat patterns for hull panels and strakes.
It is possible to design the hull with 3d solid model strakes, say 1/2 thick marine ply, and then flatten them to 2d geometery that can be used for cutting with a CNC router.

[antonfourie]

So how much does SolidWorks cost ?

[CGN]

I think around 3500-4000 US dollars, "basic" version

[antonfourie]

I guess that I will have to make do with TurboCAD and Freeship for the moment.

[Raggi_Thor]

Try Rhino as well, the free demo lets you save 25 times (or more :-).
If you want parametric solid modelling, Alibre Design is quite simmilar to Sold Works at fraction of the cost, and Alibre Xpress is completely free. Alibre opens Rhino files as "surface features" that can be used in your solid models.
Yes I am also selling it :-)

[Robbi]

Hi there!

Interesting discussion about using solidworks in marine design.

Our company that build aluminum boats switched also recently to
solidworks as the main 3D software. Nice to have a parametric 3D design
software with history. I think the history is also found in SurfaceWorks.

Could Raggi_Thor tell more about using FreeShip/SurfaceWorks/SolidWorks?

I think FreeShip could be something to do the preliminary desing in.

(This SOFTWARE forum should be divided into some subforums like RHINO, SOLIDWORKS, HULL MODELLING, CFD, FEM, etc)

Regards,
Robbi

[Chris Ostlind]

Call me Old School if you want, but I just don't get the reference from Caldera regarding Rhino in that classification. Solidworks is in a seperate class of design software from Rhino. As soon as you engage parametrics in the software scene, you jump into much bigger dollars. Rhino comes at the problem differently and it's apparent that it works well, or so many NA shops and boat design outfits wouldn't be using it.

Is there an on-going fee to stay connected to the software after you have already plunked down the 5 large to get the package? Is the learning curve any easier now that you've paid the money for the higher-end stuff? Does your prospective clientele say, "Ohhhh, my, these renderings are so much better than the ones out of Rhino." ?

It's my opinon that it's tough enough to make a living out of the small boat design business. Throwing large amounts of start-up dollars at software while expecting that expenditure to start creating cash flow is not a good business decision.

These are just a few of the issues to be addressed for the smaller scale designer in the trade.

So, I'd say different school rather than old school and at this point in my career, Rhino is a real opportunity to have powerful modeling tools for what ends-up being very reasonable prices. I don't do boats over 25' right now and the really high horsepower packages are just not justified from my perspective.

Chris Ostlind

[Caldera Boats]

Rhino has its place as does pencil and paper. It really depends on what you prefer.
For me, Soldworks has been the best $5600.00 I ever spent. The learning curve was not too difficult. Once I got proficient at using it, I have had more drafting work than I can handle (other stuff besides boats). It pays for itself in no-time. Also remeber that any software used in your business can be considered a write-off business expense, so why not get the best?
:)
Freeship is great for drawing up designs, kinda like a very powerful digital sketch pad.

[Raggi_Thor]

I don't know SolidWorks to well, but I did work with Autodesk Inventor for several years. Alibre Design as parametric and has many of the same features as Inventor. In addition, you have the link to Rhino. So you can make the hull in Rhino and the internal structure (paramtric) in Alibre.

I think SolidWorks and Inventor rely on Iges import for surfaces (?).

[Chris Ostlind]

Pardon me, Caldera, if I have a good irony chuckle on your behalf.

$5600 for the package in your computer and your end of letter signature says, "In it for the love of boats, not the $$"

Bubba, somewhere along the road to riches you've lost yourself in the big hustle. By the way, Does your SolidWorks package have an integrated hydrostatic analysis package, or are you going to also pop for the Aerohydro thump-down and another 5 large to get that?

When you combine this discussion with the one from a month or so back about the lack of integrity for swiping other people's hulls, one begins to get a very interesting picture of your person.

And aren't you the guy who was ranking on the plan sets as supplied from other designers?

I gotta tell you, I'm really looking forward to eyeballing a few of your original designs. Please give us about ten minutes of your time and knock one out, will you? That was the suggested time frame wasn't it?

No, really, I'd love to see some of your work with that fancy stuff you have in the shop. Could you share a few drawings with us, an IGES file so we can see the quality for ourselves in our cheapo Rhino packages? It's time to show the goods, Bro.

There's no argument that SolidWorks is fine software for CAD work. Whether it's really fine software for boat design is another issue, though. And the price to get involved is only deductable from your tax filings if you first pay for it.

When SolidWorks has an installed base of working seats that meet or exceed those of Rhino in NA applications, drop me another line and we can talk, so to speak.

Chris

[J.Rhodes]

This is kind of a random question, but on the same topics:
After I import my surfacworks surfaces in solidworks, I will try to fillet some of the edges. The program will not let me do this. Is it possible to fillet the surfaces, and if so, what do I do?
I am still fairly new to the surfaceworks/solidworks marriage, so any advice would be helpful.
Thanks again,
J. Rhodes

[Tim B]

This is an interesting argument, which I have been following for some time. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I have found against Rhino is that it doesn't run under Linux*. Hey, big problem, but few other CAD packages run under Linux either. I have tended to find more recently that the "Object-Oriented", "Modern" interface with "The Latest and Greatest" CAD systems tend to mean one thing. I can't draw a surface in it, and I can't sketch something in it quickly.

AutoCAD 2000 (and later) are good examples of this... "Paper-space". I'm sorry, but I didn't care what it did on paper, my first job was to draw it. nice and simple. I can scale it and fit it to the paper dimensions later.

This is just one example of over-complication in the modern CAD world. What we all need is a package which gives good control over accurate surfaces and lets you draw interiors and the like with the minimum of fuss.

For me, this is Rhino v3. I will not argue if others express a preference for another package, and I will not expect them to argue with me for expressing my preference. As far as I'm concerned, Rhino 3 is (pound for pound) one of the best peices of CAD software I have ever used.

Tim Brocklehurst

Tim Brocklehurst Marine Design.

* Rhino versions 1+2 run very well under emulation, version 3 and 4 have/will have licence manager issues.

[CGN]

Hi Rhodes,

What surfaces are you trying to fillet?, side with deck? or trying to fillet a chine to make it a round bilge?, it can be many things, you may need to "knit" the surfaces together and then fillet, maybe the fillet that you are trying to do is not "realistic" (possible), depending on the geometry the fillet is "having problems" solving for a corner or for the ends, or mismatch of surfaces degree.

can you post a pic to have a look this will give better idea

Good Luck

[spank]

Jesse,
You might want to check out VX. It's a very powerful hybrid modeller that I picked up last year. I model hulls in Multisurf and them import into VX. From there I can fix any weird surface issues and build structural/interior components. It has far more powerful surfacing than Solidworks does, and you can fillet a surface to a solid and vice versa, which is very tricky with solidworks. I used to spend days just trying to turn a hull into a solid with solidworks...I have not had this problem with VX. I know Goetz is using VX. Not sure what other marine people are using it. While I like parametric modelling...vx, solidworks, catia etc. they can turn into a nightmare if you're not careful with how you build your model. One slip and you can have all sorts of annoying errors....whereas a program like Rhino is kind of nice because when you trim or erase something....that's all. Whatever you erase is erased and nothing else is linked to it. This affords you with freedom that can be difficult to get with a parametric modeller if you are sloppy with how you build your model

[spank]

Jesse,
Just reread your last post there. Do you have surfaceworks integrated with solidworks, or are you using the two separately? I know you can't fillet two surfaces with solidworks...you would want to thicken them, join them, then fillet them. It still might not work of the edge joining the two surfaces is too complicated.

[Caldera Boats]

Pardon me, Caldera, if I have a good irony chuckle on your behalf.


Just to humor you a little more...

I do non boat related drafting and design for my bread and butter. I have yet to make ANY profit designing or drafting boats. For me, boat design is not nearly as profitable as the aerospace fields, so it's just an expensive hobby.:P

[CGN]

Yes is possible to fillet the surfaces in solidworks, just use the "knit" command and use the fillet command. I should say that VX is oriented to hybrid modeling, so it's features in regard of surfacing are for sure better than solidworks, but if i have to pick one i'll go with Think3....and goes on and on and on and on..... : )

[J.Rhodes]

Thanks, guys.
I am using surface and solid works seperately -- not as the package. I have tried the knit function, but I will try it again and dig a little deeper. Also, I will try to thicken the surfaces and go from there.
I love surfaceworks, but Rhino seems like a good overall package - especially with their add in marine module and their prices.
The tough call is though - will Rhino's marine module be as developed as surfaceworks/multisurf?

[Raggi_Thor]

The tough call is though - will Rhino's marine module be as developed as surfaceworks/multisurf?

I think so.Rhino is quite "mature" and developed. It doesn't get a new version every year, but maybe every third year or so.

[Rick Loheed]

Why don't you download the free trail of Rhino from rhino3D.com, they are very generous with it allowing up to 25 saves. I use Rhino and SolidWorks mostly, and have written my own CNC G-code processor that runs in Rhino. Scripting is very nice, and they have an SDK for C++ if you are so inclined.

[DVO]

So, I'd say different school rather than old school and at this point in my career, Rhino is a real opportunity to have powerful modeling tools for what ends-up being very reasonable prices. I don't do boats over 25' right now and the really high horsepower packages are just not justified from my perspective.

Chris Ostlind

... and anyway, Rhino does not limit you to 25' creations.
(though special marine features of Rhino were not used here).

For instance, a 1035' liner, designed 2 years ago:

http://www.dvomarinedesign.com/france3d/images/slideshow/F22.jpg

http://www.dvomarinedesign.com/divers/France-3D-sample-2.jpg

http://www.dvomarinedesign.com/france3d/images/slideshow/france3d-nuit-2.jpg

or a 262' motoryacht, designed 4 years ago:

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/506/34-ar-haut-b.jpg

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/506/night-7.jpg

Note the above renderings were obtained with the basic renderer included in Rhino 2.

More renderings at http://www.dvomarinedesign.com

Dominique Vaccaro.

[J.Rhodes]

Man, that is impressive. Thanks for the posts.
Jesse

[Tim B]

I assume that the above boats all float on their marks and upright?

Not to cast aspertion on good work, but it's very easy to draw pictures and not design boats.

In short, if it doesnt float it doesn't sell. Work out how you'll set the system up, then test it to make sure it looks sensible.

Tim B.

[MikeJohns]

We have Solidworks(2001) ,Rhino and Autocad.
Any Marine design is done in Rhino Autocad gets used for dimensioning detailing and printing which Rhino is poor at. Solidworks sits unused.. no where near as intuitive as Rhino.

I even draw basic 2d in Rhino in Preference to Autocad but can drive them both.

[Rick Loheed]

While a would agree with you in part, don't discount SolidWorks- it is very powerful. I too have a strong preference for Rhino, but most of my mechanical work I now do in SolidWorks. I have also used SolidWorks to import Rhino surfaces and solids, not just surfaces, then create my drawing layouts instead of using AutoCAD. When it's time to show it on the boat, I export it via STEP to Rhino, it is more bullet proof when dealing with the surface model of the hull and of course does those great renderings with the water plane, etc especially using Flamingo.

RE floating on their lines- Proteus Engineering has a great plug in for Rhino they call Phazer- it does a great job of hydrostatics. Not all that expensive either. They also have a generalized Marine design package for Rhino.

[MikeJohns]

Rick

Yes Solidworks is a powerful program and it is excellent for machine design.

Phaser has become Rhino-Marine, it is a good hydrostatics addin with a nice output and free to trim stability curves.

[Raggi_Thor]

I think RhinoMarine is great, also because it gives you the lines you want. allways updated.

[Wellydeckhand]

Hi experts,

My shipyard goin to invest a design combo with price ranging from US$ 5,000- US$ 15,000. We are designing ship and boat ( pure working and crew boat )...... no fancy sail design yet.

The design program that would drive CNC for profiling of steel and aluminium.
I not quite sure if this is nessecery because I am not that techno incline in this field yet.

We would be employing an expat to do the design work but would consider what software first to better understand it.

Thanks

[Raggi_Thor]

Rhino is easy to use if you know a little AutoCAD.
If you allready have AutoCAD, maybe ShipConstructor is a good add on for steel detailing.
I think it is important that you find software that you like to work with and suppliers that can support you. There are many solutions that may have the capabilities you need but are hard to use.

[Andrew Mason]

Hi experts,

My shipyard goin to invest a design combo with price ranging from US$ 5,000- US$ 15,000. We are designing ship and boat ( pure working and crew boat )...... no fancy sail design yet.

The design program that would drive CNC for profiling of steel and aluminium.
I not quite sure if this is nessecery because I am not that techno incline in this field yet.

We would be employing an expat to do the design work but would consider what software first to better understand it.

Thanks

Wellydeckhand

contact me directly and I can give you some details on the Maxsurf/ShipConstructor combination.

AndyM@formsys.com

[Rick Loheed]

SolidWorks has an import add-in that opens Rhino files directly, for the most part. It has been improving.

I saw yesterday a plug-in for Rhino that is supposed to open SolidWorks files directly too, haven't tried it yet but will.

Incidentally, STEP has worked the best (keeping the solids intact even, plus exporting assemblies), from SolidWorks to Rhino. IGES is a 'verbose' standard (makes big files) and seems to deal with surface definitions, not solids. (You have to re-join them frequently)

I have also been impressed with Alibre and have their basic design package (that came with Algor), but we settled on SolidWorks due to the wide acceptance of it despite the price difference.

My opinion is that no matter what design program I use, I will always have and recommend Rhino as a companion. Despite others assertions that all the CAD programs import/export all the important formats, Rhino still has the widest range of capability I have ever seen in my 20+ years experience in design.

Due to seeing it referenced on this site, yesterday I downloaded Free!Ship. I was very impressed- as an initial design tool, particularly for free, it is quite good, particularly for sailboats but it is very flexible! Also, I write code in Delphi and it is open source written in Delphi!!! I downloaded the source code. Wow! I also downloaded Michlet.

So far playing around I have written a macro to export section lines from Rhino to Free!Ship for testing and so I can potentially export to Michlet. I will report back on the results, it was successful but needs more 'tweaking'.

[Raggi_Thor]

As an alternative to SolidWorks, take a look at Alibre Design, it opens Rhino files directly (and STEP). www.alibre.com

[pacoblasco]

I have been evaluating SolidWorks and it is very good for mechanical design.

But I am making the whole boat with it and it seems to have lot advantages respect Rhino. I have tried some ways to do it an I am not so sure if I am in the right way.

Does anybody can give me an idea about how to structure the design, i.e., the hull, bulkheads, beams and deck all in one part (or body), or should they be separate bodies and be joined in an assembly?

[Raggi_Thor]

If money matter, you can buy Rhino + RhinoMarine + Alibre Design + BricsCad (AutoCAD "clone") for less moneu than one SolidWorks.

You can make the hull in Rhino and then the other parts as separate files in SolidWorks or Alibre. For smaller boats its probably faster to do everything in Rhino, but it can be a very large file with many details.

[pacoblasco]

If money matter, you can buy Rhino + RhinoMarine + Alibre Design + BricsCad (AutoCAD "clone") for less moneu than one SolidWorks.

You can make the hull in Rhino and then the other parts as separate files in SolidWorks or Alibre. For smaller boats its probably faster to do everything in Rhino, but it can be a very large file with many details.
Ok, Raggi_Thor, thank you

[Raggi_Thor]

Just have to tell :-)
My neighbours here modeleed a new 30 feet fishing boat in one Rhino file. It was 100 Mb with all details needed to build it.
http://www.kystfiske.no/nyheter/utnyttelse01.html
http://www.kystfiske.no/nyheter/selfa-speedsjark01.html

Another company nearby made a model of a 200m (600 feet) ship with som simplifications. That was 30 Mb.
http://193.41.96.195/Custom/templates/Page____29000.aspx
http://www.wartsila.com/en,service,0,,2004105160531740,3207715445269680,,.htm

[SeaSpark]

Does anybody can give me an idea about how to structure the design, i.e., the hull, bulkheads, beams and deck all in one part (or body), or should they be separate bodies and be joined in an assembly?

I would make a seperate part for each steel element you are going to use, this may seem excessive use of parts but it is the way solidworks expects you to build your model. The model will be more manageble and creating (and updating!) a bill of materials when ready is easy. In general you should use Solidworks the way it was designed to do, their working metheods are VERY well thought about.

I have been working with Solidworks and Rhino professionally and find it hard to compare the two. The price difference is evidence of this.

Solidworks was developed to be a complete and parametric solution for mechanical design and i think they succeeded very well. A package like this will never be easy to use but the Solidworks aproach is a good one. Rhino was developed as a curved surface editor. They aso did a fine job especially when you concider the price. Unfortuanately a have not tried the latest version of Surfaceworks yet.

In general, a boat designer will always have to work with different software tools to get his job done. So many aspects of engineering are involved with boat design that i think there will never be one package that does it all.

[pacoblasco]

I would make a seperate part for each steel element you are going to use, this may seem excessive use of parts but it is the way solidworks expects you to build your model. The model will be more manageble and creating (and updating!) a bill of materials when ready is easy. In general you should use Solidworks the way it was designed to do, their working metheods are VERY well thought about.

I have been working with Solidworks and Rhino professionally and find it hard to compare the two. The price difference is evidence of this.

Solidworks was developed to be a complete and parametric solution for mechanical design and i think they succeeded very well. A package like this will never be easy to use but the Solidworks aproach is a good one. Rhino was developed as a curved surface editor. They aso did a fine job especially when you concider the price. Unfortuanately a have not tried the latest version of Surfaceworks yet.

In general, a boat designer will always have to work with different software tools to get his job done. So many aspects of engineering are involved with boat design that i think there will never be one package that does it all.
Thank you, Sea Spark. I have been working with Rhino, but I need a parametric design. SW can change the position of a bulkhead or the height of a door just changing the distance instead of repeating the whole operation.

I changed the way of working with SW as you told me and it seem it work quite good.

Do you have a model that you can send me, just to see the way you structure the model? I do not want to copy your boat nor your design. I do not mind if it is an old boat or some boat not built, I want it just to see the way you work with SolidWorks in a boat.

Thanks

[SeaSpark]

I do not have a Solidworks model of a boat for you.

Worked with Solidworks for a mechanical engineering company up until two years ago. We engineered things like soap dispencers and an electric vehicle for parcel delivery, no boats. Stupidly did not take some of the models i made there with me. At the moment i am using Freeship and Rhino to make boat models.

Cannot afford Solidworks but would realy like to try the current version of Solid/Surfaceworks.

Best of luck with your project.

[SeaSpark]

A few years ago there was an advertorial in Wired about a company selling 3D scanning equipment:


Did you ever make a 3D model? No of course not, the mere thought is labour intensive!

[signum]

Rhino's great software for modeling.
I have just on question for anyone who could answer to me, about unrolling the developable surfaces, I found that you can flatten just the simple curvature surfaces, but usually the bottom of hull has some double curvature shape, there is any way to get off from the designed model of boat the patterns for a double curved surfaces as long as Rhino doesn't flatten such surfaces ?

Signum

[Thunderhead19]

You'll need to buy the extra module for Rhino called "Expander " I think

[Raggi_Thor]

Take a look at www.RhinoMarine3D.com or www.ds-t.com (the european distributor).

[SeaSpark]

Build your surface using the "loft" command and choose the "developable" option in "style".

No need for extra plugins although RhinoMarine is of very good use otherwise.

[Raggi_Thor]

You can manually split a surface with compound curvature (like the bottom of a round hull) into many developable surfaces. That's no problem, but it can be alot of work :-)

[Sonadora]

Hi Guys,

Great topic and one that's near to my heart (and my paycheck).

I am a Solidworks Application Engineer by day, wanna-be boat designer by night. I've taken the little progress I've made in the Westlawn course and applied that to my in-depth knowledge of SolidWorks. Here are some clarifications:

1.) Unbeknownst to many people, there is a Student version of SolidWorks. I know nothing about that as I only resell the Retail version. Hit SolidWorks' website up for more info: http://solidworks.com. You can also attend a SolidWorks Hands On Test drive in your area. You will come away from this with a Personal Edition (PE) of SolidWorks that you can install and use for 90 days. After that, find another machine and install it again! PE is very limited but it does include all the stuff in the basic version and it's great for getting your feet wet with SolidWorks.

2.) The retail version, in U.S. dollars, is $3995 for the basic version. The basic version includes everything you need for solid modeling as well as some basic, single part FEM (Finite Element Modeling) for structural testing. There are also comprehensive tools for sheet metal and structural shapes. In addition, and often overlooked, SolidWorks has tremendous surfacing capabilities. I've used Rhino and anyone with Rhino knowledge will be comfortable with SolidWorks. Think of some of the crazy shapes in product design (look at the shape of your mouse). SolidWorks is a breeze for this stuff and is used extensively for designing the tooling for such things. You can model in Solids OR Surfaces and knit or thicken to transform it to a Solid.

There are two other versions, Professional and Premium. Since I'm a technical guy, I don't know the price for those two, but I do know their features.

In a nutshell, the Professional version (and most popular) includes some nice tools, a huge parametric hardware library, file management, rendering and animation. The hardware library and rendering are worth the upgrade. In fact, the rendering engine in SolidWorks is one of the best I've seen, in line with Viz or 3DSMax. I would pass on the animation part, however.

The Premium version includes a sophistacated routing package used for wiring and piping as well as a very strong suite of FEM called CosmosWorks Designer.

As for the maintenace fee, that is something like $1499 anually (don't quote me on that, it's probably less). Of course, it's optional. The maintenance fee includes one major release above the purchased one. So, for those buying version 2007 and paying for maintenance, you'll get version 2008 when it comes out fall of next year.

More info on all of this can be found at the SolidWorks website.

3) Surfaceworks is a great program. There are two ways to use it, stand alone and integrated. I believe the stand alone package goes for $999. The integrated is considerably more but maintaines parametric modeling. However, the ONLY reason to use SurfaceWorks, in my opinion, is to flatten non-developable surfaces (think of a round bilge). These surfaces are rarely seen in anything other than metal boats. For developable surfaces, SolidWorks will flatten without any problem (think of a chined hull). Glass boats rarely have any developable surfaces, but then again, hopefully you won't have to flatten them.

By the way, be wary of 'Cheap-o-Flat' programs that say they will flatten non-developable surfaces. The resulting flat depends on very sophisticated FEM processing as well as accurate material properties. I've heard of other flatteners that make many assumptions. This could result in incorrect formed surfaces if, say, you plasma cut the flat based the results from Cheap-o-Flat Software. Surfaceworks is NOT a Cheap-o-Flat program...it will correctly flatten your surfaces.

For hydrostatics, SurfaceWorks is great! I would think that a perfect, state-of-the-art approach to hull design would be combining SolidWorks with Integrated SurfaceWorks hydrostatics. You get the best of both worlds.

4) The BEST part of SolidWorks is the parametrics. Why? Because design is not about design, it's about constantly changing your design. If you look at a process that involves a 2D Cad system and a separate surface modeler, it's a one way street. The surface model is generated then smashed into 2D and brought into the 2D Cad system. The 2D systems have gotten better at this, but it's still a tedious affair to create a clean 2D drawing. Client makes a change and it's back to the surface modeller - smash - import - cleanup. In SolidWorks, you simply make a change to EITHER the model or the drawing and everything updates with a couple clicks. Those of you who have used SolidWorks know what I'm talking about. I literally mean 2 clicks...a few seconds...done. This frees you up to do all sorts of things like tweaking your design and seeing the results in real-time. No recalculating. No re-entry into Excel. Done. And since we're talking about solids, we can treat them that way. Want to know how much your SS Anderson Winch weighs? Just go to Tools->Mass properties. Two clicks. Want to change that to Aluminum? That's right, 2 clicks. Apply this to all your hardware and you can get accurate mass calculations in an instant, including moments. How useful is that?

5) As a SolidWorks Certified instructor I can also relate to teaching SolidWorks. The best students are those who are already comfortable in 3D (Rhino guys, raise your hand). However, as a 'retired' AutoCAD instructor, I have two observations with regards to SolidWorks: 1. It's easier to learn, 2. It's MUCH simpler!

No, you say! Yes, I say! Given a person without ANY CAD knowledge, hands down SolidWorks is easier to learn than AutoCAD. That's because it is much simpler to use. Take any AutoCAD jockey, a seasoned one, and watch them work. Note all the construction geometry required, all the trimming, extending, stretching. SolidWorks doesn't require this. Because SolidWorks is parametric, you design with the numbers and the geometric relations. It's much more intuitive and much more accurate.

Often, when someone relates their experience with SolidWorks, they'll talk about how difficult it is. That person probably has a lot of 2D CAD experience and something as 'natural' as 3D is outside of their comfort zone. This person would have difficulty with any 3D package.

Of course, there are a bazillion other things I could say about SolidWorks. But I won't. I will, however, address the wonderful ship shown in an earlier post. Can SolidWorks do this? No Problem! That model was very simplified and you can make simplified models in SolidWorks. However, you can also model down to the very last cotter pin. Would you do that on a model of a ship?

I'll leave you with that one.

Cheers,

Rick

p.s., in a few days I will have a site up showing some of the modeling techniques for hulls in SolidWorks. I'll post when it's up.

[CGN]

Sonadora, it is possible for you to write a macro or script that can model a
"3D stiffener" by selecting an spline or line or arc?

have you seen shipcontructor works?, i wonder if is possible to use the solidworks API to write something like that, where you select a curve or polyline and shipconstructor "models" an specific structural member.

And by this i mean something simple and basic

[Sonadora]

CGN,

Most definitely. It doesn't require a macro. This functionality is built in to SolidWorks. This is part of the weldments capabilities. Now, you may not be thinking of welding. This is just the terminology SW uses. It applies to any extruded structural shape. For instance, we've used it in many woodworking shops for moulding and the like.

It's simply a matter of sketching your spline path and selecting a profile. SW's library of profiles is pretty slim, but making a new profile is very easy.

I have not seen shipconstructor.

Cheers,

Rick

[CGN]

Thanks, i have seen the new weldments capabilities, but i wasn't aware that it was possible to use an spline or any curved path to add an structural member.

Thanks

[fmmarco]

Hello. I'm trying to export a GHS file from Rhino, but I`ve some problems becouse, when I import the file, autoship ask me for 2 stations. Could anybody help me, please.

Thanks a lot.

Bye

[westlawn5554X]

Yup, EXPANDER by shipcontructor, a plug-in for Rhino to flatten the drawing ready for NEST.

Student price is US$190

Student

P.S. I am buying too.:)

[Miller62]

We have Solidworks(2001) ,Rhino and Autocad.
Any Marine design is done in Rhino Autocad gets used for dimensioning detailing and printing which Rhino is poor at. Solidworks sits unused.. no where near as intuitive as Rhino.

I even draw basic 2d in Rhino in Preference to Autocad but can drive them both.

I could not disagree more. I've tried wrestling with Rhino twice. I am trying the trial version for the second time after trying it once last year. It is one of the least intuitive programs I have ever run across. I have been using Solidworks since 1998. Rhino is a nightmare of commands and half-baked help. I can't get the end points of a line to appear, I can't get lines to snap where I want them, (NOT to a grid). I can't even trim intersecting lines successfully, but only one side of one line. There's no apparent way to directly dimension anything and see the dimensions in the sketch. If this is intuitive I'd like to see how anyone can claim Solidworks isn't.

Yes, I've looked over the tutorials in Rhino, but they tell you only about 50% of what you absolutely must know to be able to do a thing on your own. I'm venting because I'm tired of hearing people praise Rhino to the skies apparently forgetting what an incredibly steep learning curve it has. It's not even in the same league as Solidworks in ease of learning how to use it.

That said, I really want to learn how to use Rhino, which is why I am SO exasperated. I see lots of examples of what it can do, but I can't even seem to get a simple sketch off the ground successfully.:(

Well, apparently this forum is not too intuitive, either. I hit reply to topic, wrote this post and it put it in the wrong thread! What a day...

[marshmat]

Welcome aboard, Miller :)
We all get frustrated at times.... I know what you're saying.
I really like Rhino. Most of my previous CAD experience was with AutoCAD and SolidEdge. AutoCAD is still just an expensive way to draw lines; SolidEdge is great for milled metal blocks but can't surface worth crap and is a major, major resource pig. Moving from SolidEdge to Rhino, though, was not easy: the techniques are totally different. (SE works much the same as SW in many aspects.) Rhino's snap toolbar at the bottom of the window, its command line/menu/toolbar duplication (pick whichever you prefer for a given task), etc.... I think it makes a lot of sense and I can work really quick with it, but it does take practice and frustration to learn. But then again, what doesn't?
(oh, as to your comment about the thread-jumping... when you reply to an earlier post, it will automatically take you to the last page of the same thread.)

[Raggi_Thor]

Miller, I have to agree with you, Rhino started as an AutoCAD add on, and the command names and structure is very simmilar to AutoCAD, withe some imporovements, for example when you start typing a command you get suggestions in a list. Try this: Select one or more lines (or other objects), start typing "po", you get a list of command starting with "po", select PointsOn with the mouse or keyboard or write the whole command.

[JesperW]

This functionality is built in to SolidWorks. This is part of the weldments capabilities.
...

It's simply a matter of sketching your spline path and selecting a profile.

Oh how I wish that would be true, it would have saved me sooo much work.
But unfortunatly it's not true. Weldments only work with lines and arcs, not with splines, making them useless for stiffeners.

I still use weldments for grabrails and stuff, though.

/j

[Raggi_Thor]

...But unfortunatly it's not true. Weldments only work with lines and arcs, not with splines, making them useless for stiffeners.
....

Rhino!
:-)

[JesperW]

Rhino!
:-)

Eh, well.... Rhino has no specific function for creating stiffeners either, so in this case it's no better.

[Raggi_Thor]

Sweep?
"Sketching your spline path and select a profile" said Sonadora.

I see now that the twist may be a problem...

[JesperW]

I see now that the twist may be a problem...

Yes. What I end up doing is defining two closely spaced "parallell" 3D splines on the hull plate face. Then sweep the stiffner profile with one as the path and one as a guide curve. That way the stiffener will twist to stay at 90 degree angle to the hull.

[kjk]

I am late to this thread but, I agree with sonadora. SW is a better and more powerful package because it is parametric. Working in a non parametric CAD environment is counter intuitive to me. Spreadsheet controlled models in SW are very easy to set up. That said, Rhino is great for freeform, surfaces and nurbs- its primary asset- but SW 's latest edition, 2007, has come along very well with its surfacing capabilities and it will just be a matter of time before it can accomplish what Rhino can in the surfacing dept. Rhino is of course cheap and SW expensive (but not like ProE or CATIA expensive) , which I believe, drives much of the loyalty towards Rhino.

[Michael Chudy]

Is there a way to demo solidworks? I see nothing on the site about it.
Mike

[Raggi_Thor]

I asked the local reseller about that.
They don't give away demo versions because they think you are not able to use it!
Try Alibre instead, www.alibre.com
(Yes, I am selling it :-)

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree with all of you :-)
Rhino is best for hull design because you can nudge the control point and get exactly the shape you want.
Parametric cad programs are great for interior structure.

[kjk]

Is there a way to demo solidworks? I see nothing on the site about it.
Mike

I dont think SW has demos (that I've seen). I'd call the rep in your area.
One way to get it inexpensively is buy an educational version. Only 125.00. It comes with Cosmos and FLoworks... about another 20K worth of software. Whoever buys it needsto be enrolled in a college PT or FT. You must verify this with documents. It n only be insalled on one computer with limited re-installs.

SW tutorials, built in to the software, are excellent.

i think the biggest hurdle is understanding the parametric aspect.
You work with this totally different than you do with a program like ACAD or Rhino. It takes a little time but, afteryou've learned it, you wont go back

[signum]

I agreee with last opinion, Rhino is better in hull design, and this is what I use for, is great very intuitive, SW is better for interior assemblies where parts should fit. When I decided to see what CAD soft would do my work easier in boatbuilding design I started with AutoCad, good for mechanical design with regular shapes, then I tried SolidWorks and I was excited to see a 3D gray piece almost realistic turning around but to realise a hull shape seemed to be difficult, next has been CATIA which is wonderful soft but to complex for what I need, finnaly I reach to Rhino , with it I did my hull forms very easy,....and I rested here. I liked very much. I tried many other as TouchCad ( good for surface unfolding, but not so intuitive as Rhino) , MultiSurf, SolidThinking, but noone is like Rhino.

[Raggi_Thor]

I would like to add that I think parametric modelling is very tedious and time consuming in an early stage of a design spiral. All programs I have seen are based on a lot of 2D sketches with a lot of dimension, parameters and constraints. There is usually a lot of clicking involved to navigate through sketches, planes etc to change the parameters you want. If you have a very clear idea, you can start by creating most of the parameters and relations between them in a table or in Excel if you prefer, then you start modelling, but is that intuitive?

[Antisthenes]

now that v4 is out the validity of this question is no more


to add to what above said, it also constrains your design ability to break out of the box and do your own creative things with your OWN intelligence.

[SailDesign]

Say what you will, the best piece of software for any job, at the time it needs to be done, is the one you are most familiar with that will do it. :)

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I agree with SD - whatever works with how you work that gets the job done is the way to go...

If there was one answer to all our problems - our wants - and our skill levels - then there would be no market economy and we would all become zombies or sheep and all the boats would look like soap bubbles...

Wait - this has already happened...

I am obviously not up to speed...:)

Software is a tool - and there a lot of 'twangle' tools out there - pliers that 'flip' into hammers and such...

Remember the early days of this crap - when most of the program geeks did not even know what a proper set of lines looked like - and their offsets had an incredible and useless accuracy of 4 decimals of an inch - gah...

SH.

[redant]

Hi Rick,

How does one go about flattening a surface/panel/plate in solidworks?

I have spoken to the guys who sold me the package, and apparently it cannot.

Best
Anton

[signum]

Import surface in Rhino and Unroll Developable Surface, it must haven't double curvature your surface , only simple.
There is also a software TouchCad but I couldn't learn it but it has many features in unrolling surfaces.
Try a demo.

[ACuttle]

(Fairly resurrected thread)
Redant:
Solidworks doesn’t unroll regular surfaces, it does however have options to develop sheet-metal parts so long as they comprise of single axis bending. It isn’t that hard to produce a curved sheet-metal part from surface.

[RhinoParametric]

If you like to work with Rhino but you would like to have parametric capability, you shuold try to use the RhinoParametrics plugin which is free for students and teachers.
www.rhinoparametrics.com

have a look on youtube to find a lot of naval examples.