America's Cup

[Guillermo]

Maybe it have been posted previously, but I've found this most interesting report on recent developments in America's Cup yachts, and want to share it.
http://www.etsin.upm.es/Noticias/mdy06/mdy_04/ponencias/Papers/04-Peter%20Van%20Oossanen/BN(3).pdf

[D'ARTOIS]

Quite good. Thanks a lot for the link. Good reading material!!

[Jolly Roger]

Thanks for sharing Guillermo. Very good paper.

[RANCHI OTTO]

Thank you very much Guillermo.....

[BOATMIK]

Thanks for posting this - an excellent evaluation of the AC rules changes by a man who really knows - I wasn't aware of it at all.

I would however like to make some comments about the changes and where this rule is going.

Do the changes make the class:

1/ BORING FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN DESIGN

So it looks like the various teams are going to be spending millions of dollars finding what fillet at the hull/keel juncture will give them the advantage.

The revamp of the rules in the article above aims to limit still further the types of boats that fit the rule compared to the previous generation.

Certainly it seems like it is quickly becoming a rule that defines a certain "type" of boat.

More conservative with the upshot that racing will be tighter. Will it end up being like the IOR - so strongly type driven that racing will be very, very even and just a little boring with the elimination of the boats that played the corners of that rules - the Smackwater Jacks, the Waveriders, the Police Cars.

I am much more interested in the corners than the middle ground. Whether a new fillet for the hull/keel juncture is developed holds my attention very little.

2/ ILLOGICAL

There seems to be a certain illogic here.

If it is all about making the boats as EVEN as possible - why not race one designs? It seems very strange to be spending stupendous amounts of money on developing boats that will be even more similar this time around.

3/ BORING FOR THE AVERAGE ONLOOKER

Some of the most interesting inshore racing I have seen has been amongst the Volvo 70s - it translates really well to television when there is any wind at all. The boats appear fast even to the casual eye. There is a real feeling of danger. Crew mistakes are very costly.

And all of this is because the boats are really hard to handle.

I know that it takes a highly technical and concerted approach to get an AC class yacht around the course, but it all appears to dull and well within the capabilities of the crews - in the sense that you get the feeling that they all WILL make it round the course.

The boats should be allowed to be fast rather than being the slowest boats for the buck that are being built these days.

A SOLUTION?

Make a rule where the boats push the frontiers in every way. Where the limits of control are sometimes exceeded, where there is a sense of risk in design terms too. Where there's no point in drawing an overcanvassed fragile boat optimised for the light stuff because it may not last if there is a blow.

My rule suggestions.

Fixed Maximum length

Monohull

Unlimited Sail - configuration and area.

No restrictions on appendages - period.

Big points penalties for not finishing a race

A decently high upper wind speed limit for racing similar to what the rest of us have to deal with in inshore club racing.

No hiking from the crew - the canting keel/foils/or whatever will do a much better job.

No concavities between the waterline and sheer. Sheer to be a fair continuous curve or straight line in all planes

No changes in principal dimensions during a series to prevent changing the boats to suit different conditions by changing masts/keels/displacement.

I am bored with this controlled experiment that they call the America's Cup - let's have the fear and danger of Formula One Grand Prix. The public will tune in in the hope of some real mayhem and those of us interested in design can get back into real speed producing factors (do I have to mention the hull/keel juncture fillets again? Sheeeeesh)

A report of one of the Volvo inshore races (http://www.volvooceanrace.org/news/article/2006/february/oldgodonnewgodsboat/) - feel the excitement from a nicely written bit of reportage - and the high drama of boats that are fast and hard to handle

Best Regards
Michael Storer.

[Doug Lord]

Michael, I 100% agree with you-you've hit the nail on the head! The introduction of movable ballast(supported by Coutts) would be a huge improvement- keeping the America's cup on the leading edge of technology is(should be) the essence of the of what it's all about.
I'd also like to see return of nationalism that would require -at least- that the whole crew be from the country of origin of the challenge.

[RHough]

My rule suggestions.

Monohull

To keep the boats as dull and slow as possible? It is a monohull only mindset that has spawned the Rube Goldberg school of yacht design, gotten rules changed, and allows still slow motor-sailors on course.

Big points penalties for not finishing a race

??? It is match racing ... who cares if you don't finish ... winning is all that counts. If you can't win, there is no point to finishing, you might as well sink.

A decently high upper wind speed limit for racing similar to what the rest of us have to deal with in inshore club racing.

Speed limits? In a yacht race?

No hiking from the crew - the canting keel/foils/or whatever will do a much better job.

Sho' thing boss, since it is a sail boat, how are you going to move the ballast? (Hint: sailboats don't use engines)

I am bored with this controlled experiment that they call the America's Cup - let's have the fear and danger of Formula One Grand Prix. The public will tune in in the hope of some real mayhem and those of us interested in design can get back into real speed producing factors (do I have to mention the hull/keel juncture fillets again? Sheeeeesh)



To have wide open racing, you need only the Racing Rules of Sailing (no exclusions) and perhaps a size limitation. Minimum 60ft LWL - max 90ft LWL?

I think a couple of 60-90 foot cats or tris might make for some good racing.

As far as F1, every effort is made to reduce the possibility of mayhem. True fans don't go to races looking for gore. F1 is very restrictive. this year all the cars must use V-8 engines, the internal dimensions of those engines is limited further than just a maximum displacement. F1 teams spend millions to find the fastest fillets (aero packages).

Go back to Nationalism? To prohibit what? So the country that has the patent on XYZ is the only one that can use it? Shall we go all the way back to the boat must be built in the challenging country and sail to the race on her own bottom? How does that make for better racing?

[BOATMIK]

(edited by boatmik into point form - please read RHough's post above for the correct context )

1/ To have wide open racing, you need only the Racing Rules of Sailing (no exclusions) and perhaps a size limitation. Minimum 60ft LWL - max 90ft LWL?

2/ I think a couple of 60-90 foot cats or tris might make for some good racing.

3/ As far as F1, every effort is made to reduce the possibility of mayhem.

4/ Go back to Nationalism? To prohibit what? So the country that has the patent on XYZ is the only one that can use it?

Hi Randy,

Good to run into you again!

1/ Once sail is derestricted all boats will be built to the maximum length possible - so the length requirement is purely to keep expense in check.

2/ America's cup should continue to be for monos. Maybe it is my traditional side talking :-). It is a class - so you won't find multis racing for the 505 world championships either. Also multihulls will clean up the monos with a lot less of the drama - and I think sailing needs more drama.

3/ Good points about the restrictions to cars in F1! But maybe "mayhem" and "crashes" is a case of me overstating the case!!! But AC needs an injection of drama and making the boats tricky by pushing the boundaries of speed producing factors is a way to do it.

I suppose a counterargument to your point is that despite the restrictions in F1 motorsport is that despite the restrictions F1 cars are extremely difficult to race and are on the limits of control the whole time. There is a chance of things happening suddenly - whether it is an overtake or a slide off the course.

I don't expect anything less from the world's premier monohull racing class.

4/ I didn't mention the nationalism idea but agree with Lorsail - as far as the crew and maybe designers - build 'em anywhere, get gear from anywhere.

Or get rid of the current sham country thing altogether and just be honest about the multinational nature of the boats - name em for the sponsors.

Cheers
Michael

[usa2]

i think it should remain for mono's also, just because it wasnt meant to be a multihull event. But i think there is no need for canting keel boats in it because:
A) sailboats should not rely on engines, especially in the America's Cup.
B)Canting keel boats would be horrible match racers, and cannot get into tacking duels (witness the Cape Town VO 70 inshore race- the boats chose to sail a long tack out to the edge of the course and tack once rather than tack many times up the center of the course because they would be slow and inefficient if they tacked a lot).
C) it is possible to make a monohull that is "fast' (relatively) and exciting enough to enliven the current AC conditions without a canting keel. The Russell Coutts 44 is fixed keel, and sails upwind at 8.5 knots(?) and has sailed downwind at 18.5 knots in 22 knots of wind.

They should let them hike, not optimize the boats so much for upwind work, and give them a high SA/D ratio.

[Doug Lord]

Nah-if these boats are to reclaim their rightful position at the pinnacle of monohull design then they need movable ballast. Don't like canting keels? Ok, lets go with on-deck sliding ballast like the Bethwaite "Maxi Skiff".
There is no reason in the world why canting keel/sliding deck ballast boats can't match race-if they are designed for that!!
AC boats may be able to use batteries like Schock 40's especially as the world gets more serious about developing energy storage-but ,personally, I don't care if they need the engine to move the lead or not-they'll be the most spectacular monohull SAILBOATS ever designed-as they should be.
Did we legalize hydrofoils yet? Gotta do that!
And we need a TEAM USA(or Team X ) in order to trully capture the public imagination-the Corporate multinational crew/team is a travesty.

[RHough]

Match racing requires a different mindset and different boats than fleet racing or ocean racing.

Good match racing requires that the boats be very close in performance. One designs or very restricted rules make for such boats. I agree that the IACC rule has created boats that are not ideal match racers.

Boats in the corners of the design box will only win if that day's conditions favour that corner. The IACC rule is so type-casting that one corner of the box is favoured in all conditions. Longest, heaviest, most sail area ... sound familiar? All mono's in displacement mode tend to get long, skinny and heavy. The only reason not to go with that is if the boat can plane.

Once boats start planing, the design game becomes interesting again, but the match racing would suck.

The Cape Town inshore race was great fun to watch, but not a very good race. ABM did a horizon job on the fleet. The Melbourne inshore was a better race, but not exciting from a speed/crash and burn viewpoint.

Much of the drama in the VO this year was created by forcing the boats to sail short handed. Maybe the only rules needed are manual power and 11 crew. The designers could build anything they want as long as 11 guys have to manhandle it around the course. It would be interesting to see what size would end up as optimum for a 11 person crew, match racing in all weather. 40 -50 feet? What innovations in boat and sail handling would we see?

[bhnautika]

Boatmik,
Maybe it’s not the boats that deed changing but the race coarse (track). Throw in some more corners, directions and different lengths. That should test crew and boats in handling and acceleration. They would have to be tough as well.

[SuperPiper]

Listen guys, I am really on the fence on the issue of motor-assisted sailing.

First, I agree that running a motor to sail a boat just does not seem right. And, I also agree that using a motor to charge batteries for auto-pilot or for trimming or for de-salinating water may be equally wrong.

But on the other hand, I am the short, skinny, 4-eyed guy from high school that never made the basketball or volleyball teams. And if the rules of sailing create types of boats that require mules to "power" then I will be left out of another sport. No, I will never make it to the America's Cup. But the public appeal comes from the "I could do that" factor.

So, the alternative has been discussed here before: tap some of that boat speed for power transfer. Use a prop-driven something or other to cant the keel and winch the sheet. Use wind power. Use solar power.

Let's not type set the sailors the way we have type set the boats.

[RHough]

But on the other hand, I am the short, skinny, 4-eyed guy from high school that never made the basketball or volleyball teams. And if the rules of sailing create types of boats that require mules to "power" then I will be left out of another sport. No, I will never make it to the America's Cup. But the public appeal comes from the "I could do that" factor.



Short, skinny, 4-eyed guys don't tend to do well at shot-put or hammer-throw either ... what's your point?

The beauty of sailing is that there are crew positions and classes where brains can compete with brawn. The AC is an excellent case. Room for both 250# grinders and 120# drivers, bowpersons, tacticians, navigators. A winning AC crew has to be a combination of Jocks and Geeks, no need for power assist.

If you want to be world class at something that you do not have the physique for, there is not much that can be done. If you focus your energy into skills you have, you have as good a chance as anyone else to be world class. No need to change the rules or make a mockery of sport.

[Doug Lord]

"no need to change the rules or make a mockery of sport"-Wow! Maybe you should tell that to the disabled people who sail the Martin 16 using servo controlled rudder and sheets ?!
Randy, you should really stop using the "rules" to justify your anti-power assist crusade. The RRS provide for the use of power assist by any one design class including new wild ,exciting IACC boats. The use of that kind of technology has produced the most astounding monohull ocean racing performance ever seen and would do the same in the America's Cup. It's really simple in my mind: 1) the Racing Rules of Sailing allow it, 2) it allows big boats to use the same basic physics as small trapeze boats to go real fast. 3) these boats would be extraordinary crowd pleasers both within and without the existing sailing fraternity-they would grow the sport! 4) they would represent the pinacle of this era in technological monohull sailboat design.

[RHough]

"no need to change the rules or make a mockery of sport"-Wow! Maybe you should tell that to the disabled people who sail the Martin 16 using servo controlled rudder and sheets ?!
Randy, you should really stop using the "rules" to justify your anti-power assist crusade. The RRS provide for the use of power assist by any one design class including new wild ,exciting IACC boats. The use of that kind of technology has produced the most astounding monohull ocean racing performance ever seen and would do the same in the America's Cup. It's really simple in my mind: 1) the Racing Rules of Sailing allow it, 2) it allows big boats to use the same basic physics as small trapeze boats to go real fast. 3) these boats would be extraordinary crowd pleasers both within and without the existing sailing fraternity-they would grow the sport! 4) they would represent the pinacle of this era in technological monohull sailboat design.

Doug, there is a HUGE difference between creating a boat or class of boats to allow those otherwise unable to sail and allowing the same devices to be used by able sailors.

Rube Goldberg Yacht Design has come up with an astounding ocean racing monohull ... so what? The boats are SLOW and require altered rules. They are great fun to watch, they are stupid expensive, they prove what? If the goal was to create fast ocean racers the current power assisted boats are an expensive failure. While marginally faster than the sailboats they have replaced, they are far from being fast ocean boats.

I pity the fine sailors on Morning Glory ... they sailed hard, they read the weather, they finished a race. They will never know if they are better than the sailors that came before them, they used an engine and the sailors they beat did not.

If your sense of fair play can make that right, fine. Mine is outraged.

The America's Cup is all about match racing. It is not about speed. The last thing you want in a match race is one boat measurably faster than another. The racing would be better if it were done in One-Designs, the IACC rule was intended to create boats with similar performance that match race well, not to create fast boats.

In match racing, the folly of power assist would be highlighted. The boat that could tack and gybe the quickest would be faster. In a RGYD boat that means fitting bigger rams, larger pumps and a more powerful engine. You would have exactly what I am campaigning against ... a sailing race outcome determined by the biggest engine ... that is not what the sport of sailing is about.

[Doug Lord]

Simple solution: make the power systems one design-every boat has a maximum hp power assist that is exactly identical to every other system.
But WHAT moves, how it moves whether canting or on deck or a combination is up to the designers.

[RHough]

Simple solution: make the power systems one design-every boat has a maximum hp power assist that is exactly identical to every other system.
But WHAT moves, how it moves whether canting or on deck or a combination is up to the designers.

That would work, as long as the power units are supplied by the class and sealed. The last thing you want is an old racer like me with a power unit that I can "maintain" :D

One problem I see with the current IACC boats is that they can point too high. They can only cover on one tack. This makes choosing the right side of the course at the start much too important. If the rule could be changed to create boats that tack through 90 degrees rather than 75-80 it would make for better racing.

Another problem that I see in AC boats is trying to make displacement speed sailing exciting. Planing hulls are terrible for match racing.

[usa2]

RHough is right. Match racing is about tactics and boat design within a very narrow range of parameters. If one boat is measurably faster than another, its an anti-climatic event. Take the last America's Cup. SUI-64 won rather easily in 5 races, and nobody seemed to care the least.

I think they should just modify the current AC class to have much deeper fins and lighter bulbs, as that would speed them up a bit by reducing their displacement. They should also incorporate sprits and huge oversized asymmetrical spinnakers.

[Doug Lord]

Ultra light displacement, round the windward mark and pop the spinnaker AND retractable main hydrofoil--planing is yesterdays news....

[usa2]

big monohull sailboats will probably never hydrofoil unless a computer is controlling where the weight is. The reason a Moth is easy (relatively) to foil is because its being controlled by single person who is in tune with the boats forces, and moves accordingly to whatever the pilot/sailor senses. Now what happens if you get 17 guys on an 85 footer that is supposed to foil, and they all sense something different and move different ways? Big wipeout, and the thing will probably submarine. Super fast boats are a bad idea for the AC. They need a compromise, with a boat capable of 20+ knots yet no moving ballast and/or internal combustion engines on board.

[Doug Lord]

I think you're missing the biggest point of the America's CUP: TECHNOLGY-maximum, edgy, leading edge technology. The new rule has to ANTICIPATE what MAY be possible so that the rule is not old technology before any new boats are built. That means things MUST be legal that we're not necessarily sure will work. Numerous MAJOR designers are looking at the use of foils on monohull keelboats from 30' on up-it has huge potential-probably.
Even if one boat zoomed another it still has to finish and in these hi-tec exciting boats that could be a real question not a mostly forgone conclusion like it is now. We need drama-the kind of drama that sends chills up and down your back; the kind of drama where the chance is taken and the result not guaranteed.
We need the TEAM USA Foiler IACC
Maxi Skiff out there ready to kick ass or die trying!

[usa2]

diesel engines powering hydraulic systems is not much in terms of maximum, leading edge technology.

[RHough]

LMAO ...

Boat A rounds the weather mark, sets the kite and pops up on foil at 20+ knots.

Boat B rounds 2 seconds later, sets and pops up on foil at 20+ knots.

Boat B covers Boat A and takes their wind. Boat A drops off the foil(s) and goes from 20+ to 8 in a cloud of spray as the crew gets tossed forward and into the water. Boat B continues at 20+ and slices Boat A in half with her foil as she runs her sprit through Boat A's rig. The impact stops Boat B and Boat B's crew joins Boat A's crew in the water ... both boats sink ... the sharks start to circle ...

Boat B looses the protest, racing will resume as soon new boats are built and uneaten crew are located.

[Doug Lord]

I saw that race at the new Sailing Coliseum-you know the floating one built off Newport after we won the last Cup from the Russians.All the crews were picked up by the little Donzi Power Foilers(DPF's).The blood was from a single shark speared by the splintering American boat. According to the America's Cup Committee the TV/internet broadcast ratings were the highest for any sporting event in the history of the US. The Cup was preceded at the Coliseum by the World Two Person Big Moth High School Championship attended by over 400 foilers.
Now do you remember when you said foilers wouldn't make any difference?
--------------------

[Willallison]

Once again I find myself coming to the aid (or am I a hinderance, being a powerboat guy?;) ) of an embattled Doug Lord.
I sat on the edge of my seat thru the night for every race of the (best ever) AC - when Australia 2 wrestled the cup from the sticky hands of the USA's finest lawyers.
I jumped in my car and drove across Oz for 3 months to watch as we tried in vain to keep it 4 years later.
I haven't watched it since. Boring as bat ****. It barely even rates a mention in the media here anymore.
But the Volvo 70's - how cool are they!! On TV almost every night.

The point is simple. Excitement means people. People mean money. Money ensures the continuation of sport.

Make 'em bigger. Make 'em WAY faster. Make 'em cool.
Then the people will come. Even powerboaters like me:D

[BOATMIK]

Much of the drama in the VO this year was created by forcing the boats to sail short handed. Maybe the only rules needed are manual power and 11 crew. The designers could build anything they want as long as 11 guys have to manhandle it around the course. It would be interesting to see what size would end up as optimum for a 11 person crew, match racing in all weather. 40 -50 feet? What innovations in boat and sail handling would we see?

Great lateral idea.

I'm with you all the way - but keep it as a mono race.

It would force the tempering of speed to gain control and some tactical bias as well.

No point in going a million miles an hour if you can't turn the thing round.

Great concept - there really should be such a class - hasn't been done yet. Think of all the shorthanded methodologies that would be developed! Great thought!

MIK

[BOATMIK]

RHough is right. Match racing is about tactics and boat design within a very narrow range of parameters. If one boat is measurably faster than another, its an anti-climatic event. Take the last America's Cup. SUI-64 won rather easily in 5 races, and nobody seemed to care the least.

I think they should just modify the current AC class to have much deeper fins and lighter bulbs, as that would speed them up a bit by reducing their displacement. They should also incorporate sprits and huge oversized asymmetrical spinnakers.

Agreed there would be a period of instability with a new rule, but a type would soon develop with the right mix of speed and control.

The 18/12ft skiff rules have very few restrictions - the boats are similar for some period of time - stable type - then someone like Julian Bethwaite or Bob Miller (aka Ben Lexcen) comes along and heads in a direction that no-one has thought of.

So then a usually short period of instability until it becomes type stable again.

I see this as a good thing. Good for the development of speed producing factors

To say there would be no match racing if the design is derestricted is not necessarily the case because of the filtering process of the selection trials. When the class has become type stable the racing will be close.

Also if there are two boats on the course there will be match racing - We have all seen slower boats come through because they have been sailed better.

And if sometimes a boat has such a speed advantage it is very good for the development of the class in the long run - plus the rest of us who are interested in design. Remember Intrepid or Australia 2 - or Gretal 2 for that matter. All of them upset the "the type stable" scenario.

Of course if a boat does have a huge speed advantage one year it will become the starting point for all the design teams next time round.

The big innovation with the current AC Class has been the minimisation of beam - not much excitement about that! A simple discovery of what corner of the rule pays off the best. Open it up to REAL innovation - not a class for buttoned down incrementally minded low acheivers. They all think it is OK to have spent the last 2 years of their lives working out how to shape the fillet between the keel and hull - one of the few areas where they can see an improvement being made.

All pluses - no downside :-) (nothing like a bit of hubris!)

I am happy to negotiate on the canting keels - or at least power assisted ones. Allow them and all other appendage configurations - but don't allow the engines as that's the sticking point rather than the canting keel concept itself.

Boatmik

[RThompson]

...that the whole crew be from the country of origin of the challenge.

why? are you sick of seeing the New Zealand "A" team racing the New Zealand "B" team in the final? ;)

Rob

[BOATMIK]

why? are you sick of seeing the New Zealand "A" team racing the New Zealand "B" team in the final? ;)

Rob

Tasmanian A team vs Tasmanian B team?

[sharpii2]

Nah-if these boats are to reclaim their rightful position at the pinnacle of monohull design then they need movable ballast. Don't like canting keels? Ok, lets go with on-deck sliding ballast like the Bethwaite "Maxi Skiff".
There is no reason in the world why canting keel/sliding deck ballast boats can't match race-if they are designed for that!!
AC boats may be able to use batteries like Schock 40's especially as the world gets more serious about developing energy storage-but ,personally, I don't care if they need the engine to move the lead or not-they'll be the most spectacular monohull SAILBOATS ever designed-as they should be.
Did we legalize hydrofoils yet? Gotta do that!
And we need a TEAM USA(or Team X ) in order to trully capture the public imagination-the Corporate multinational crew/team is a travesty.

I agree entirely. If there ever was a place to try go fast mono technologies, this class of use once throw away boats has got to be it.

For one thing, they don't venture far from shore. For another, there are usually plenty of spectators and spectator boats around to fish hapless victims of boat design experiments gone awry.

Much unlike trans ocean races such as that Volvo thing.

I wonder if there ever has been a single race fatality in the entire history of the AC.

As for rule ideas:

why not come up with an absolute sail area limit, say 300 sm, where every square inch of sail is counted, and alow the hull length to be anything the dear designer chooses as long as the DL is at least 100.

With the stipulation that the 'L' in the DL be LWL + LOD/2.

And, just for funzies, also stipulate that the draft can be no greater than the Beam or some absolute multiple of it.

All of these proposals are easy to calculate and can have designers tearing their hair out for years because every design decision will be a bet on the wind conditions on the day of the actual races.

In my veiw, such chance could not only make upsets more likely, but make them all but inevitable.

Bob

PS We can give this class a new name: Golden 100's.

[BOATMIK]

As for rule ideas:

why not come up with an absolute sail area limit, say 300 sm, where every square inch of sail is counted, and alow the hull length to be anything the dear designer chooses as long as the DL is at least 100.

With the stipulation that the 'L' in the DL be LWL + LOD/2.

And, just for funzies, also stipulate that the draft can be no greater than the Beam or some absolute multiple of it.

All of these proposals are easy to calculate and can have designers tearing their hair out for years because every design decision will be a bet on the wind conditions on the day of the actual races.

I can see what you are doing sharpii - you just want to give Bruce Farr a restless night or 365.

Formula rules are fine and can end up with cool boats if the rule is conceived well.

For example the square metre classes - sexy glorious boats. Your rule sorta points toward something similar but with much less overhang! :D

Anyway ... I would rather keep Mr Farr awake thinking about just pure speed and control issues rather than sapping his creativity by having yet another rule for the poor guy to have to wrap his head around.

If he can design the fastest boat that is just as deep as it is wide ... who cares? And I don't mean that nastily - but it is something that is hard to care about.

But if all the design heavies are spending their budgets on improvements to speed and control ... I wanna know everything!!!

Keep everything open and have a fixed length overall to restrict expense.

Not only would we see some exciting boats, we would start to see real breakthroughs that affect all boats rather than ones that just find a better solution within some rule framework.

The real world is much more fun than hanging around in someone else's abstraction.

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[RHough]

Hold on just a moment.

All rules end up creating a type of boat.

The basic rules of manual power and no shifting ballast have spawned the fastest sailing vessels on the planet.

It is obvious therefore that the only reason more restrictive rules exist is because someone does not like the boats that an open rule creates. The only limits on these boats are natural ones.

If you want to go kind of fast but not real fast, you write a rule that does not allow windsurfers, and sail multihulls.

If you are pissed off that you didn't think of adding a hull or two and your ego is greater than your desire to go fast, you write a rule that does not allow more than one hull.

After you have limited your choice to the slowest vessel, you drop acid and decide that now you want to go fast. You get the rules changed to allow moving ballast and power assist and hire RGYD and as long as you keep yourself medicated you think you are sailing fast.

Those that are not on your medication can still see that monohulls and fast are very hard to fit into the same sentence (except for windsurfers).

Now we look at IACC boats. 85 foot boats that are not very fast, even in the context of the slowest of boat types. Somehow the notion that the AC is a race seeps through the meds and we conclude that going faster is what is needed if we are racing. We don't want to go real fast, we wouldn't want to see a windsurfer win the AC. We've been on our meds so long that we cannot even think about more than one hull without having a fit, so we decide to make a new rule to generate faster AC boats?

Why would anyone want faster match race boats? Anyone that has ever done any match racing knows that much faster boats could have been built when they wrote the IACC rule. Thank goodness they tried to write a rule that generated good match racers rather than a development rule that created fast boats.

They only requirement in match racing is that you beat one other boat. If speed is the only consideration, it ends up being a drag race ... yawn ...
Ability to manoeuvre, acceleration out of tacks and gybes, reaching hull speed in the least amount of breeze are things that make for a good match racing boat.

The selection process for a new generation of IACC match racers should be to find a rule that allows close tactical racing over the widest range of wind speeds. I'll wager that an IACC boat would cream a VO70 or stupor-maxi on an AC course in any breeze below 20 knots.

I'm all for creating exciting boats. Exciting both to sail and to watch. I just don't see the AC and match racing as the place for those designs.

[Guillermo]

Ability to manoeuvre, acceleration out of tacks and gybes, reaching hull speed in the least amount of breeze are things that make for a good match racing boat.....
I'm all for creating exciting boats. Exciting both to sail and to watch. I just don't see the AC and match racing as the place for those designs.

I quite agree.

[sharpii2]

It seems that the direction of this thread points to the idea that the ACC is becomming less and less relevant. Maybe future AC races should be done with Open 60's which are probably the fastest monos around that have at least a reasonable amount of safety.

Or maybe 'Volvo 70's' could be used to keep that 'crash and burn' effect going.

And national teams need to be reinstated with very strict residentcy rules such as the requirement of full citizenship of the crews from the country they are sailing for.

This way you would end up with real boats, not throw away sailing apperatuses and the races could bolster national pride as well.

Bob

PS- My earlier rule proposal shows that I missed my medication that morning.
I should have said make the draft a proportion of the Length rather than that of the Beam. Now that would really force some tough design trade offs. A longer boat would be heavier for its sail area, but would be potentially faster and more weatherly than a short boat which would be lighter and shallower.

[usa2]

You cannot race the America's Cup with boats designed for ocean racing.

[RHough]

You cannot race the America's Cup with boats designed for ocean racing.

Agree.

The challenge is to somehow make AC racing interesting to television viewers, keep the race coverage about the same length as a football or hockey game, and still get the best match racers in the world to compete in the event.

I'm not sure that it is reasonable to expect non-racers, much less non-sailors to understand match racing. It is totally foreign to any other form of racing that I know of.

A format of fleet races that dropped the slowest half of the fleet into a silver division and ended up as a best 2 of 3 match race for the two fastest boats might be interesting.

[Doug Lord]

New IACC race boat:
billochcut.jpg
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2005/images/billochcut.jpg
Uses sliding on-deck ballast.....

[sharpii2]

You cannot race the America's Cup with boats designed for ocean racing.

Why not?

Didn't the original America have to cross the ocean?

And wouldn't a type that had a wider range of speeds make for more exciting races?

Bob

[RHough]

Why not?

Didn't the original America have to cross the ocean?

And wouldn't a type that had a wider range of speeds make for more exciting races?

Bob

Yes, America sailed across the Atlantic and won the 100 Guinea Cup. It was a fleet race.

Once it became America's Cup, it has been a match race event.

And no, a wider range of speed would make for very dull match racing.

[BOATMIK]

The Americas Cup has never just been about match racing.

It is just as much about excellence in design and INNOVATION. Some of the best racing has been when the boats were not well matched - there is the sense of a real breakthrough,

eg the first series of Intrepid. Australia 2.

I am starting to think that racing to a formula rule is just daft. All formula rules are an attempt to reflect the physics (always grossly simplified), but in the end they are type forming because they can never take full account of the physics.

As soon as you formulate a rule you end up with plank on edge cutters, or overlapping genoas, or IOR bumps, or super low stability; where effort is put towards making the boat as slow as possible as far as the rule sees the boat but a little bit faster as far as the real world goes.

Restricted classes make a lot more sense - where there is an upper or a lower limit on some sensible measurements - some or all of length, beam, sail area, mast height etc
A class cats
18ft skiffs
Moths

All of them are going somewhere - the fewer restrictions there are - the more interesting the development.

Who could at all be interested in America's Cup by comparison?

The design should be opened up by getting rid of a too restrictive a rule.

If the design is opened up to allow a wider range of possibilities there will be the occasional breakthrough boat - and it will be a lousy matchrace.

GREAT! That's one for design innovation.

But between breakthroughs there will be a stable period of design when the best matchracer will win - as we have seen from the classes above.

GREAT! That's one for match racing.

We see this cycle of stable period and breakthrough in all the above classes - there are long periods of close racing until the next breakthrough.

This is much more in line with the history of the cup. After all the America was a technological breakthrough when taken to British waters - The race around the Isle of Wight was not even close "Your Majesty, there is no second"

And that is exactly my point - the cup has not just been about matchracing. Design Excellence has been just as important - but it should be kept relevant to the real world by getting rid of formula type class rules or by having too tight an envelope in the case of a restricted class.

Over to you.

Best Wishes
Michael

[Doug Lord]

Well said, Michael!

[gggGuest]

Jeez, guys, when has the Americas Cup *ever* been about fastest possible boats, leading edge etc etc. Maybe for a few years in the 1920s and that's about it. What's its about is the highest status and most expensive boat race in the world, and it doesn't matter too much what the boats are like provided they're big and expensive.

[RHough]

The Americas Cup has never just been about match racing.

It is just as much about excellence in design and INNOVATION. Some of the best racing has been when the boats were not well matched - there is the sense of a real breakthrough,

eg the first series of Intrepid. Australia 2.

You need to quantify "breakthrough." Australia II won 4 of 7 races in 1983. 12's can average about 8 knots around the 24 mile AC course of the day (includes reaching legs). The race should take about 3 hours or 180 minutes. The largest winning margin was about 3 minutes, less than 2%.

I agree that Intrepid and Australia II were breakthrough boats. At the AC level of sailing a .5% increase in average speed is a breakthrough.


I am starting to think that racing to a formula rule is just daft. All formula rules are an attempt to reflect the physics (always grossly simplified), but in the end they are type forming because they can never take full account of the physics.

As soon as you formulate a rule you end up with plank on edge cutters, or overlapping genoas, or IOR bumps, or super low stability; where effort is put towards making the boat as slow as possible as far as the rule sees the boat but a little bit faster as far as the real world goes.

Dead on. That is why handicap racing is forever flawed. It is not possible for a rating or handicap system to fairly rate dissimilar boats, they cannot even fairly rate boats of different sizes.

Restricted classes make a lot more sense - where there is an upper or a lower limit on some sensible measurements - some or all of length, beam, sail area, mast height etc
A class cats
18ft skiffs
Moths

All of them are going somewhere - the fewer restrictions there are - the more interesting the development.

And each ends up creating similar boats. Just as the IACC rule has.

Who could at all be interested in America's Cup by comparison?

The design should be opened up by getting rid of a too restrictive a rule.

What speed differential makes for interesting racing? 1%? 10.1 knots rather than 10? Do we really want to watch a two boat race when one is 10 boat lengths ahead after an hour? Lets go high-tech and use VO70's ... 1% might be 30.3 knots vs 30.0 knots ... now the 1% faster boat is 30 lengths ahead after an hour. Is that what we want?

We see this cycle of stable period and breakthrough in all the above classes - there are long periods of close racing until the next breakthrough.

This is much more in line with the history of the cup. After all the America was a technological breakthrough when taken to British waters - The race around the Isle of Wight was not even close "Your Majesty, there is no second"

And that is exactly my point - the cup has not just been about matchracing. Design Excellence has been just as important - but it should be kept relevant to the real world by getting rid of formula type class rules or by having too tight an envelope in the case of a restricted class.

A quest for design excellence is just what we have. Designers of hulls, rigs, and sails looking to find a 1% breakthrough. If they find only 0.5% the boat will pull a horizon job on the others. In a typical 3 hour race, that 0.5% gain from finding the right fillet radius is 15 boat lengths.

The big plus of racing 10 knot boats rather than 20 - 30 knot boats is that a 1% difference in speed is a smaller distance. When the distance is close, good match racing can make up for a 1% speed advantage.

The only knock on the IACC rule (and any other development rule) is that early in the life of the rule, improvements are easy to come by. As these rules age the inovations get smaller and more time passes between each one. Our modern super-computing power has increased the speed of both early inovation and early stagnation.

The Universal (Metre) Rule governed the AC from 1920 to 1987 ... 67 years and 14 matches, 4 in 24 Metre J-Class boats and 10 in 12 Metre boats. At the end of the 12 Metre era, finding even 0.25% increases in speed was hard.

The IACC rule has only seen 4 Cup races. The USA won 1, NZ won 2, and the Swiss won 1.

Prior to the IACC rule the score was: USA 26, Australia 1

It is hard to argue against the IACC rule. Except that the boats are too big and too expensive (just like the J-Class boats in the 1920's and 30's).

I'd like to see 15-20 teams competing for the AC, not just 5-10. That might take a return to smaller boats, similar in size to the 12's. The IACC rule does not scale at all well, you cannot just plug 12 Metres in instead of 24 Metres and have a smaller version of the class. Something in the 60 foot range rather than the 90 foot range would cut expenses in half and should double the number of entries. At one time there were 21 12 Metre entries for the 1991 AC.

The AC should be sailed under a rule that insures that the boats are closely enough matched in performance that a superior sailor can overcome a speed disadvantage (as Dennis came so close to doing in 1983).

[usa2]

the reason the boats are bigger is because it is a bigger area to post the sponsors logo on. And, the big boats are always the ones who get the attention internationally, so i dont see the America's Cup going to a 60 foot boat anytime soon when most of the people involved are happy with the 85 footers they have now.

[Guillermo]

...Something in the 60 foot range rather than the 90 foot range would cut expenses in half and should double the number of entries...
I support this idea.

[BOATMIK]

Edited by BOATMIK - see above post for full text.

1/ Dead on. That is why handicap racing is forever flawed. It is not possible for a rating or handicap system to fairly rate dissimilar boats, they cannot even fairly rate boats of different sizes.

2/ Restricted classes - moths, a-class cat, 18ft skiff
And each ends up creating similar boats. Just as the IACC rule has.

3/ What speed differential makes for interesting racing? 1%? 10.1 knots rather than 10? Do we really want to watch a two boat race when one is 10 boat lengths ahead after an hour? Lets go high-tech and use VO70's ... 1% might be 30.3 knots vs 30.0 knots ... now the 1% faster boat is 30 lengths ahead after an hour. Is that what we want?

4/ A quest for design excellence is just what we have. Designers of hulls, rigs, and sails looking to find a 1% breakthrough. If they find only 0.5% the boat will pull a horizon job on the others. In a typical 3 hour race, that 0.5% gain from finding the right fillet radius is 15 boat lengths.

The big plus of racing 10 knot boats rather than 20 - 30 knot boats is that a 1% difference in speed is a smaller distance. When the distance is close, good match racing can make up for a 1% speed advantage.

5/ The only knock on the IACC rule (and any other development rule) is that early in the life of the rule, improvements are easy to come by. As these rules age the inovations get smaller and more time passes between each one. Our modern super-computing power has increased the speed of both early inovation and early stagnation.__________________________________

The AC should be sailed under a rule that insures that the boats are closely enough matched in performance that a superior sailor can overcome a speed disadvantage (as Dennis came so close to doing in 1983).

Hi Randy,

I always like your posts - they are so damn hard to argue with! I really have to put on my thinking shoes (thinking shoes - maybe that's my problem!)

1/ It goes to follow that the better that any handicap rule reflects physics the fairer the racing. Whether that can be acheived ...

But it is the only way it can be acheived!

2/ So you agree that restricted classes are type forming at least during design-stable periods - stable design with small increments of improvement for long periods then there is a breakthrough. Then again stable with small increments.

Which counters your earlier point that a formula rule like ACC Rule or similar is the only way to provide close racing whereas with restricted classes you will get a too wide range of performance for there to be good racing.

During design-stable periods the racing will be close - great! When there is a breakthrough - great! Because the breakthrough reflects understanding something about the real world rather than just being a manipulation of a man-made rule.

For example 90% of Australia 2's increase in performance was a result of using the wings to get the ballast lower - more stability - more speed. The breakthrough was purely a way of acheiving a lower CG without infringing the 12 metre rule - ingenious solution - but no gain at all for sailing in general - no flow ons into other classes - because the classes that can put their ballast in a bulb had been doing it anyhow.

Using restricted classes means that the improvements sought will reflect physics and be broadly applicable. Not like sailing a class like ACC that is so hide-bound that the most important area for speed improvement is fairing up the hull/keel juncture.

As I keep saying - we deserve more than that. :-)

3/ So if you are agreeing with me that a restricted class is stable for longer and shorter periods, then the racing will be close enough to make match racing a viable means of winning the Americas Cup.

I can see why you are saying a breakthrough boat is terrible for matchracing - I agree completely - but the Americas Cup has also been about gaining design breakthroughs - otherwise they would be racing One Designs.

My point is that the occasional year when one boat is significantly faster is a fair price to pay for the designs to reflect the real world rather than reflecting a sweet spot in someones kludged together formula - many classes will be able to benefit from the improvement.

The year after that - it will be even racing again - as the breakthrough boat will provide the basis for the design programmes of all teams.

I would argue that this was the original purpose of the Cup - each country representing its Design, Manufacture and Sailing efforts on the water.

The fewer restrictions on the class the less type forming the rule - which is why I was arguing for:
A length rule - to limit expense.
A type rule - some restrictions to keep the America's cup as a keelboat race

And very little else. I agree that restricted class rules are type-forming to an extent. The more restrictions - the more type-forming. That's why I am arguing for fewer restrictions.

4/ I am going to make the point of the very first post. That Peter Oosanen sees that the biggest area for improvement for performance is reducing drag in the hull/keel juncture.

In a restricted class the battle is always with more gross performance improvements. It is not that they won't bother with hull/keel junctures - it's just that they become so relatively unimportant that they won't be mentioned except in passing.

It is fine for there to be a 1 percent speed improvement as you say - but I also think it is OK for there to be the occasional 5% speed improvement.

Where they become a main route for performance improvement only shows that the class design has stagnated and is no longer the (expensive) search for excellence that the America's Cup has been historically. Maybe it still is in terms of Structures and getting accurate CFD, but pure sailing performance is almost forgotten.

5/ Lets see that supercomputer time and effort put to good use to follow up potential real speed increases in terms of the REAL WORLD rather than to beat a formula that someone made up 15 years ago and will be no longer relevant to anyone but yachting historians in another 15.

The real world is always relevant :-) A gain there is a real gain.

Take Moths, 18ft Skiffs and A classes. The design in each of these has resulted in striking boats that display REAL breakthroughs, but also very even racing at the top level - a paradox, but true - and no supercomputers involved at all - just people who going sailing a lot and look at the problem of going fast in a broad way.

In fact I don't think a supercomputer would help much with their overall development. Because they are about the Physics of sailing there is a whole world of possibilities as we have seen with the above classes. There are unexpected developments. Computers, by their nature will always be about taking a certain situation and optimising a solution - they will never be useful for thinking up completely novel solutions in the first place.

(when the Revolution comes the supercomputers will be first ones up against the wall!).
___________________________

So I support a restricted class with minimum restrictions so as to be type forming in a minimum way.

A simple restriction of length to limit expense
A couple of rules to prevent crew weight becoming too important to righting moment - to keep the AC as a keel boat race.
No restriction on sail area or configuration
Rules to prevent changing the configuration for different weather conditions.

There will be times when someone comes up with a breakthrough boat and match racing will be irrelevant.

There will be times where match racing will win the cup - as we have seen from the restricted classes above there are quite long periods where the boats are all quite similar.

With no restriction on sail area there will be premiums put on boat handling skills so the racing will become much more interesting to watch rather than the current almost completely predictable procession of events around the course.

And if a boat wins by speed - it is PHYSICS speaking - real, lovely, gross PHYSICS - and the lessons learned will hold for all time - rather than having to be thrown out when the rule is changed.

PHEW!

Michael Storer

[usa2]

Well, there have been some breakthroughs in (I)ACC design.
America3 was much narrower than the previous boats of her class, and that has been a trait of all the following boats.
NZL-60(now FRA-60) introduced the knuckle bow that is now commonplace on all the ACC designs.

[RHough]

IMO the 12 Metre rule provided some of the best Cup racing in history. The match in Freemantle was great. The final outcome was a blow-out but the combination of the LV Cup, Defender Trials, and the Match was a wonderful event.

To put a few things into the proper time-line:

1983 the Cup was lost.
IOR was the ocean racing rule of the day.
VPP's and CFD were rocket science.
The 12's designed for the 1987 match in Freemantle were the first to use CFD and VPP's during the design process.
1987 the greatest number of teams competed for the AC.
1988 the miss-match, proving that in an open design contest, a hacked together 60 foot Catamaran can make a 90 foot LWL skiff / super-maxi look silly.
1988 before the miss-match there were another record number of teams that wanted to compete for the AC in 12 metres.
1988-1992 the IACC rule replaces the 12 Metre rule.

IACC boats have been computer designed and optimized from the start of the rule.

The IACC is a rule in infancy. There have only been 4 matches sailed under the rule. The selection process and cup races have provided great drama. Boats folding in half and sinking. Great leaps forward in rig design.

The fact that the last match was extremely hard fought in the LV cup and saw NZ outfox themselves with the HULA proves that there is still plenty of room for progress and or error within the rule.

One of the things that is being studied is the possibility of tuning the hull flex for better performance. Rather than make the hull heavier in an attempt to make it flex free, it may be faster to let it flex in places and put the weight in the keel.

The IACC rule has been around for only 14 years, after 70 years improvements were still found in 12 Metre boats. Do we really need to change anything at all? We have not even reached the first stagnation level in the class.

If the 2007 race sees poor sailing and too few boats to make for a great event, then a re-think to get the involvement back up to 1991 levels might be in order.

The VO has shown that big boats fleet racing close enough to shore for spectating can be exciting. There is no reason that IACC boats could not put on as good or better show.

[mattotoole]

To have wide open racing, you need only the Racing Rules of Sailing (no exclusions) and perhaps a size limitation. Minimum 60ft LWL - max 90ft LWL?

I think a couple of 60-90 foot cats or tris might make for some good racing.

I like the completely open idea. But while cats and tris are fast, they make for lousy match racing because they tack too slowly. The last thing we want is a drag race. This may be the best argument for a size limit too. Match racing suffers when you can't just throw a leebow on someone. Also, multis are too wide and lacking in momentum for tight squeezes at the marks.

Go back to Nationalism? To prohibit what? So the country that has the patent on XYZ is the only one that can use it?

I agree.

Plus, top talent comes from anywhere and everywhere. Let's not limit anyone's opportunities.

Shall we go all the way back to the boat must be built in the challenging country and sail to the race on her own bottom? How does that make for better racing?

Well, there's charm in this idea too...

--

[mattotoole]

Why would anyone want faster match race boats? Anyone that has ever done any match racing knows that much faster boats could have been built when they wrote the IACC rule. Thank goodness they tried to write a rule that generated good match racers rather than a development rule that created fast boats.

They only requirement in match racing is that you beat one other boat. If speed is the only consideration, it ends up being a drag race ... yawn ...
Ability to manoeuvre, acceleration out of tacks and gybes, reaching hull speed in the least amount of breeze are things that make for a good match racing boat.

I agree to a point, but a modern boat capable of surfing or planing is a lot more exiting to watch; and apparent wind/wave sailing can be just as important to good match racing as the standard tactical stuff. Grabbing a wave to surf past an opponent, for example.

--

[RHough]

I agree to a point, but a modern boat capable of surfing or planing is a lot more exiting to watch; and apparent wind/wave sailing can be just as important to good match racing as the standard tactical stuff. Grabbing a wave to surf past an opponent, for example.

--

The problem with apparent wind sailing and planing hulls are that they go through transitions.

If the entire course kept the boats in displacement mode, all is well.

If the entire course has wind/wave conditions that allow planing, all is well.

It is the in-between conditions that allow high speeds on one part of the course and not others that would make the races a crap-shoot. The boat that was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time would grab a huge lead and the race would be over. On boats that are fast enough to always sail apparent wind, the boat that finds the highest wind speed wins. Higher wind speed overrides tactics and playing shifts.

Keeping the boats in displacement mode is a great equalizer.

[mattotoole]

The problem with apparent wind sailing and planing hulls are that they go through transitions.

If the entire course kept the boats in displacement mode, all is well.

If the entire course has wind/wave conditions that allow planing, all is well.

It is the in-between conditions that allow high speeds on one part of the course and not others that would make the races a crap-shoot. The boat that was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time would grab a huge lead and the race would be over. On boats that are fast enough to always sail apparent wind, the boat that finds the highest wind speed wins. Higher wind speed overrides tactics and playing shifts.

But don't you think playing gusts and waves is just like playing shifts, especially for world-class sailors? Don't you think the race is already about being in the right place at the right time? ACC crews are already scouting for gusts however they can, and the team that does the best job finding wind often wins. It already makes a difference. Why not let that difference to grow to where it's clearly visible to spectators, to make the race more exciting?

Keeping the boats in displacement mode is a great equalizer.

This is true. The best racing I've experienced has been in slow boats, not fast ones. But which would you rather watch -- Lido 14s or I14s?

I used to be in your camp on this one, but now I'm changing my mind.

[RHough]

This is true. The best racing I've experienced has been in slow boats, not fast ones. But which would you rather watch -- Lido 14s or I14s?

I used to be in your camp on this one, but now I'm changing my mind.

This is a tough one, in a fleet racing situation and a 5-7 race regatta, there is no question that the more kinetic boats put on a better show.

What I see as a problem is that one lucky call can turn into a lead that no amount of great sailing could overcome. If one boat got lucky and planed/surfed to a 20 length lead, then there were no planing conditions for the rest of the race, it would be a bore to watch. The leader would have to sink the boat to loose if the remainder of the race was in displacement mode.

I think VO70's = great TV racing and AC = Limited audience. It's the difference between hockey and curling. :)

[Guillermo]

RHough:
"...The IACC rule has been around for only 14 years, after 70 years improvements were still found in 12 Metre boats. Do we really need to change anything at all? We have not even reached the first stagnation level in the class..."


From Peter van Oossanen's paper:

"...The purpose of these Rules changes ( version 5.0) has not been to increase the level of performance, as has been publicized.....The Rule has been changed to prevent the development of designs...When it is realized that these recent Rules changes were, in effect, dictated by the present holder of the Cup and the present Challenger of Record, this can be understood. They, least of all, want to be confronted by a design from another camp with another balance in performance between light and heavy conditions..."


Maybe we have already reached stagnation?

[RHough]

RHough:
"...The IACC rule has been around for only 14 years, after 70 years improvements were still found in 12 Metre boats. Do we really need to change anything at all? We have not even reached the first stagnation level in the class..."


From Peter van Oossanen's paper:

"...The purpose of these Rules changes ( version 5.0) has not been to increase the level of performance, as has been publicized.....The Rule has been changed to prevent the development of designs...When it is realized that these recent Rules changes were, in effect, dictated by the present holder of the Cup and the present Challenger of Record, this can be understood. They, least of all, want to be confronted by a design from another camp with another balance in performance between light and heavy conditions..."


Maybe we have already reached stagnation?

This is just standard B.S. that happens during every defense. :)

The Defender tries for rules that favour them, and the Challenger tries for rules that favour them. Here we see the Defender and Challenger teaming up to limit the chances of being taken by surprise and trying to insure that Alinghi and Oracle/BMW will face off in the final.

It might also be that the rule change killed an idea that Mr Oossanen had up his sleeve. The article was full of words and little substance. Many people thought that nothing new would be seen in 12 Metres ... then Intrepid and Australia II blew them away.

As long as there are multiple teams competing for the Cup it will be fine. Politics and fighting about rules are part and parcel of the AC. I hope no one tells these boys how silly they look spending all that money and going to court over a sailboat race!

[sharpii2]

The main problem I have with the present breed of America's Cuppers is that they are not real boats. They are use once/throw away toys.

The old 12's had their faults. They were archaic, heavy, and very slow for their cost. But there are still a lot of them sailing around. Some are over two generations old. And some have even had cruising accomodations added.

If the IACC is fourteen years old, how many examples of the older boats are still sailing?

If in fact there are none, let me say this:

If the rich can afford to throw this much money around pointlessly, perhaps they have too much of it.

Maybe we can make them make their future boats out of paper. Enron stock reciepts, perhaps?

Bob

[Paul B]

If the IACC is fourteen years old, how many examples of the older boats are still sailing?

Bob

Most of them are still able to sail. Bill Koch has made a couple into a giant art piece. Another art piece was made of the Mermaid boat.

There was a series racing them in SF Bay a couple of years ago. Three are in San Diego doing charters and corporate events. Two are in Auckland doing day charters. A couple more are doing charters elsewhere.

I can't imagine why you would make the comments you have. What modern 12s are useful as anything but day charter boats? Not many.

[RHough]

Most of them are still able to sail. Bill Koch has made a couple into a giant art piece. Another art piece was made of the Mermaid boat.

I can't imagine why you would make the comments you have. What modern 12s are useful as anything but day charter boats? Not many.

Agree, Cup boats have never been expected to do more than one thing, after that they get scrapped. Been like that since forever.

[sharpii2]

Most of them are still able to sail. Bill Koch has made a couple into a giant art piece. Another art piece was made of the Mermaid boat.

There was a series racing them in SF Bay a couple of years ago. Three are in San Diego doing charters and corporate events. Two are in Auckland doing day charters. A couple more are doing charters elsewhere.

I can't imagine why you would make the comments you have. What modern 12s are useful as anything but day charter boats? Not many.

I guess that answers my question.

If they can be used for anything at all (rather than expensive art fixtures) that's good enough for me.

I was under the impression that there was a lot of breakage in this new class as well as very short life spans.

Bob

[SuperPiper]

Let's not forget that if a 12 metre was to be built in 2006, it would not be wood or aluminum or fibreglass. It would be a carbon fibre egg shell.

[sharpii2]

Let's not forget that if a 12 metre was to be built in 2006, it would not be wood or aluminum or fibreglass. It would be a carbon fibre egg shell.

I wouldn't count on it. IIRC, the IACC boats are required to be made of carbon fiber. The advantage of lighter hull material only goes so far. A swedish 12 was made out of aluminum yet still had a 92% ballast/displacement ratio. In a displacement design, I can't imagine better than that doing any more than making the rubble bounce.

More likely, the money that would have paid for the carbon fiber would have gone into to further tank testing (they loved to tank test in those days) and other research. Possibly sail and/or keel design.

Bob

[safewalrus]

does tank testing include massive beer consumption? I can do that as long as someone else is paying! (there's a few others can too apparantly)!!:cool:

[gggGuest]

I wouldn't count on it.

Without the slightest doubt. With the layup requirements of the rules a hightech twelve would be immensely stiffer and thus faster than an alloy one. That's why the Kiwi plasic boats were so good in 1988. They're easily the fastest 12s ever built, but they weren't campaigned as well as Connor's boat because the Kiwis got complacent.

[brian eiland]

I must appolgize for not following my own advice to first 'search' for the subject matter on the forum before starting a new thread. I failed to do so when I quickly posted these discussions concerning the America's Cup when there was already considerable discussion.

So I will make a cross-link between the two subject threads:
America's Cup sailed in Multihulls (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12019)

[tamkvaitis]

I think AC is **** race powered by huge money and nothing else. These boats can't sail in strong winds, they can't sail in high seas and so on. So why to bother. I am european and i Don't understand the beauty of this drag style sailing.

[Guillermo]

Maybe of general interest...
http://www.sailboat-technology.com/links/SNAME-2002.pdf
http://www.americascup.com/datas/textes/accv5.pdf
https://pronet.wsatkins.co.uk/marnet/publications/final_pdf/Paper_5_FEM_for_Americas_Cup_yachts.pdf
http://www.esotec.co.nz/condorkeel/index.html

[hiracer]

As a non-designer and a non-racer, any boat that can't move safely without its motor running ain't a sailboat in my book. Nor do I have an interest in watching it race.

Sailboats are wind and human powered. Motors to operate canting keels, move water ballast, or handle sheet loads pose no interest to me. I can't relate.

I don't have a motor on my bicycle, even though the technology is available. I mean, what's the point?

FWIW.

* * *

Also, I do think there should be strict residency requirements. Nationalism hasn't seem to hurt World Cup Soccer one bit. Quite the opposite, actually.

[usa2]

"As a non-designer and a non-racer, any boat that can't move safely without its motor running ain't a sailboat in my book. Nor do I have an interest in watching it race."

So then theres no problem with the America's Cup Class in your opinion?

[hiracer]

I wish there were some residency requirments, so some true nationalism could re-enter the race. That really does make it interesting.

Almost any rule-based race is going to produce boats that are less than useful outside the race. That's the nature of the beast. So the basic decision is whether the race is going to be class racing, rule racing, or neither.

The latter lends itself to the largest pocket book winning, not very interesting IMO. Class racing can be exciting depending on race structure.

Rule racing, like current AC, is fun too. But boat size should be restricted so that it's not so expensive that winning defaults to the largest wallet.

If you choose rule-based racing, then you have to decide what flavor. More open rules tend to product the largest design differences, which at first can produce uninteresting races as the fastest boat walks away from everybody else. But over several iterations, the rest of the fleet will catch up, unless you keep changing the rules as apparently is the modern approach. Changing the rules again tilts in favor of the largest pocket book. Not very interesting.

America's Cup lost its identity when race organizers decided not to let the race become a multihull race. Too bad. That would have been interesting and fun. As it stands now, AC has no real identity. It's at risk of becoming just another race, unconnected to its rich history.

Odd enough, I think this fate could have been avoided if the powers-that-be let the race become a multihull race. The choice to stay monohull has had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. The ever changing rules are divorcing the race from its history, which was the appeal of the race in the first place. I don't expect anybody to agree with me because the sailing community has such an irrational distaste for more than one hull (I sail monohull), but I really think the appeal of this race lies in its history, not the race itself. Continuity of rule is important in that sense. IMO.

In any case, please don't put motors on sailboats, as is being done in other races. It's a violation of the spirit of the sport. Yes, it lends itself to faster boats, but so do propellers.

[Guillermo]

May also be of interest:
http://www.oossanen.nl/pubs/VOA_MY_ACCDesign.pdf

[hiracer]

The author indirectly agrees with me, that stability of the rule will produce a race decided by sailors rather than the boat.

If the rule stays in effect long enough, the race becomes class racing, the class being defined by a rule that is uniform in its concrete application (more or less).

Now, you brilliant designers out there, can you come up with a racing rule that results in a safe, fast, easy motion cruiser that will save racing from itself. :)

[Saf]

To the people who think that the Cup boats design is good I agree it might not be the best though to the others all what I would say to those;

DEAR FRIENDS,

YOU HAVE TO SAIL ONBOARD ONE OF THEM TO FEEL HOW THEY FAST THEY CAN GO BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY WERE BUILT TO GO FAST AND WIN THE RACES!

CHEERS, RACING FREAK "SAF":p

[Saf]

sorry for the writing mistakes! :p

[marshmat]

I can't say I'm a big fan of the modern AC, really.... with the latest version of the rule, there is so little freedom to try new things that it often feels like a $100M one-design class. What I'd like to see is a rule that caps LOA and sets basic safety requirements, maybe an allowed displacement range, but otherwise lets the designer do pretty much whatever they want. I'd like to see a return to the spirit of the race that brought the Cup to America in the first place. Any thoughts?

[Saf]

Big sponsors don't give a thing about race spirit marshmat!:(

That was history! Today is very diffirent!

[hiracer]

I think all rule-based racing eventually becomes class racing, in effect, if one leaves the rule in place long enough and the venue is the same. Science is objective; everybody will sooner or later figure out what works and what doesn't.

Race cars don't look or act like the family SUV. Why should sailboats be any different? Differentiation of use is inevitable.

The real underlying question, to my mind, is what kind of racing do you want? Then build your rule accordingly, keeping in mind that eventually it will look more like class racing than rule racing.

[Saf]

Do you think that if people set some rules for each class it would work?!:rolleyes:

I think they have the racing rules just to make there lives easier so they don't have to do alot of work! Lazy people!:P

[Saf]

I think it's a game that people who set these rules are playing so you guys with the fastest boat can sit down and follow what the rules says!

Unfair isn't?!:mad:

[Guillermo]

"When the 12 boats competing for the America's Cup in Valencia, Spain, take to the water next year, the lineup will feature a first--a team representing China will participate, marking a new era in the race's 150-year history."

More at: http://www.forbes.com/sport/2006/09/28/lladro-americas-cup-life-cx_ls_0929yacht.html

[Guillermo]

“We didn’t want a silver bullet to win the America’s Cup, we wanted racing that was close,” says Simmer who was among the committee who drafted the latest version of the rule. “The best thing for the Cup is if it goes to nine races in the final Match. We’d all age terribly (he jokes) but it would be good for the Cup! So hopefully there won’t be a silver bullet. Hopefully it will be the team that has developed all of their areas a little bit better and it adds up to a total package that’s better.”
(Grant Simmer, the Managing Director and Design Coordinator for Alinghi).
http://www.americascup.com/en/acmag/features/index.php?idIndex=1257&idContent=13176

[Dan S]

I want to know why the Australians doesn’t have a team this go around.

[bullfrog]

I want to know why the Australians doesn’t have a team this go around.
The same reason they didn't last time.

A lack of money, and interest from the general population.

You can add the english, NYC, japan to the list as well.

[Stephen Ditmore]

To have a chance against the big two (BMW/Oracle & Alinghi) would take a big commitment. Looks like Emirates Team New Zealand might be competitive, and a few others look pretty serious. Is it worth all the effort just to show up and be eliminated? If I had big bucks and was interested in getting in the game, I'd seek out top people who are not in this round and use lasers to take the lines of the top boats when they're unveiled, and just calibrate computer programs.... just be a study group gathering data for next time 'round.

Are Doug Peterson and Dave Egan sitting this one out? Is Friendship Systems associated with the new German team (or another)? And then there's Van Oossanen. His own designs haven't done well (unless you count Australia II), but he's an interesting dude nonetheless.

I'm not inclined to think the America's Cup needs fixing. It is what it is, a keelboat match race. If you guys want to do something else, do it! Hire a big fancy trophy made and offer it to the winner of a race under whatever rules you want.... and offer to forever name the trophy after the first boat to win it!

[BOATMIK]

“We didn’t want a silver bullet to win the America’s Cup, we wanted racing that was close,” says Simmer

Howdy Guillermo,

I haven't been back to post on this thread for some time - since being among the first to reply when it started. But I have been watching

I think Simmer's comment is effectively a damnation of the whole crazy process.

Their purpose and the purpose of the rule is to
1/ build the most expensive one designs in the world.

2/ Clamp down strong on any real speed producing features.

3/ Eliminate the possibility of a breakthrough boat.

How much faster will this year's crop of AC boats be than the last generation? Or the generation before that.

It is about as exciting as watching the screen while running 150 hull variations through a CFD program looking to make a 2kg drag difference.

Let's pop out for another coffee Fred.

They should scrap the current silly type forming rule with everyone forced to work one corner.

My rules would be something like.

1/ Boats to be 70 ft long
2/ No exotics in the hull
3/ Boats to be monohull
4/ Max concavity above the waterline to be 305mm measured girthwise
5/ Crew to stay within the confines of the deck when racing except temporarily
6/ Racing starts at 1pm (apologies to the 18s)

In other words a wide conceptual frame that puts REAL innovation at the forefront rather than who is doing the best job of the hull keel fillet.

Kill the "design by numbers" stone dead it would. Or rather it would put the numbers back where they belong - in the background supporting hunches and inspiration about gross improvements.

Even without the exotics the boats to this rule would whop the sorry ass-ets of the current ACC boats in the first generation.

And more countries could play - er or do I mean more corporations with international workforces placed on boats that are notionally registered within the country whose insignia is on the mainsail.

Or just maybe it might start to be possible for COUNTRIES to afford boats again.

For me the last time I actually check the AC website is when they unveil the boats - and I promise you I'm not looking forward with a great deal of anticipation. After that the newpaper headlines are enough for me.
___________________________________

There are those that worry that such an an open ended pproach to the ACC class would ruin the racing. But you just need to look at other classes that have few restrictions - like the Australian skiffs. In the past they used to provide very stable racing until someone came up with something INTERESTING AND NEW. And then things would jump. And after a short time be stable again.

Some of the jumps were
Julian Bethwaites series of "small hull" innovations of the '80s
Murray/Buckland/Buckley's optimised boat approach (rig/hull/systems
Ben Lexcen's "Taipan" plywood boats in the early 60s (which were ruled out - a silly move by the powers that be) or
The Cuneo narrow beam boats from QLD in the 40s (?).

Apart from these bumps the racing in the 18s has been quite close and the innovations have led to real commercial opportunities from Ben Lexcen's time onward.

And the result is one of the most interesting classes in the world - what will be next - now that it is dominated by Bethwaite boats? Possibly no-one has the budget to find out anymore and they have put some rules in place to limit development - 18s have stopped and Moths keep getting faster and faster!

But in the AC they still DO have budget!!!!
_______________________________________

I used to really love this thing called the America's Cup and a huge bulk of the population really used to give a damm. You know - they used to actually televise WHOLE RACES - and not on some cable thingy either - REAL MAINSTREAM TV. And people would buy beers or make lots of coffee (or sometimes both) and wander through life bleary eyed like they do with the World (soccer) Cup.

Anyway - I feel (a little) better now - pity about the cup though

Michael Storer

[hiracer]

To have a chance against the big two (BMW/Oracle & Alinghi) would take a big commitment.

I'm not inclined to think the America's Cup needs fixing.

I think what originally made America's Cup interesting and followed is that it had never been wrestled away, and each year brought the suspense of whether that would be the year. Finally, the inevitable happened.

But nothing of note has replaced the prior dynamics. It's just another boat race, and some times not a very good one. Given the liberal crew rules, it doesn't even really have a real national flavor. Only the money and sponsors come from "a" country, and then of course the sponsors are many times really multinationals.

To make the race interesting, you need suspense. World Cup is the example. Any country can play in World Cup; you never know who is gonna win; and there are more than just a couple of contendors. Can't say that about current AC.

[Crag Cay]

Before you can find a 'fix' for the AC, you have to agree what is the problem. Obviously those taking part in the event like it as it is or they wouldn't be playing. So why isn't anyone else thrilled by it all?

My answer is they never were. It's always been an event between a few rich guys. The papers traditionally tried to play the 'national' angle, the constant 'cheating' by the NYYC was always worth a 'tut tut', and a feeling that it must be 'our turn soon' did slowly ignite some interest in the latter years, but overall no one has ever really cared about it.

That was until Australia won. But that was the story. Period. This then carried over to Fremantle when at least it was a great spectacle in those waves. But since then, yawn, yawn, yawn.......

So for me, people might get some interest if they play these cards - cheap nationalism and rough seas. So we need to find a fixed venue and date (Cornwall in November) and race large one designs (so every country can take part) with crews recruited exclusively from their home countries (including three female D-list celebrities with large chests) and all sailing in National costumes. There would have to be some form of ritual humiliating elimination of the last placed boat in each race with comments from a panel of experts lead by Ted Turner. However the whole results standing could be over turned by the viewers phone vote on a premium rate number, that would pay for the whole thing.

That's the only way you are going to get any mass interest. We just have to accept that all sailing makes rubbish viewing. Even the big trimarans racing inshore are dull after the first 10 seconds. Until there is mass participation in sailing leading to some deeper understanding, most people will only be interested by 'did we win', ain't she cute, or is there a chance of a crash?

But as this will not happen, let the rich blokes do what they want. It's their ball. And a hell of a lot of people do enjoy working for them. Even the design teams are still exploring radical options. At the computer and test tank stage, all possibilities are still being thought through. No one wants to be blind sided, so the tanks are as busy as ever. Brilliant. But no, I shan't watch any of it.

[ABoatGuy]

Look what sells in this country (USA). NASCAR

Try and get a crowd wound up for an F1 race. It won't happen. Technology and pure racing simply don't sell here.

Get the boats crashing, fights on deck, flames, etc. and you will have a product that will be marketable.

O' I forgot . . . all marks are taken to port. You know like in a big round circle, nothing too complicated; and if one boat gets way out in front simply stop the race and declare 'debris in the water'; regroup and then go some more. You have to admit NASCAR knows how to make a big show.

[Crag Cay]

Absolutely - and it's not like there isn't a precedent for it in sailing. Many years ago I was lucky enough to be invited to race on a traditional Family Island boat in the Bahamas. Everything you said (except perhaps the flames) were a feature of those races. In fact, the debris in the water was the crew who were no longer needed on board when the winds went a bit light.

Occasionally, we nearly get near that level of 'excitement' at Cowes Week when several different fleets arrive from different direction at the same turning mark at the same time. But someone always goes and ruins it by insisting that any 'disagreements' should be sorted out by the protest committee instead of right there and then like real thugs.

If fact at Cowes Week, if you could guarantee a strong wind over tide every day, and at least one leg where all the fleets had to beat up along the beach in front of 'The Green', and any disagreements were resolved by umpires with RPGs, you might be able to not only pack out the grandstands but also put sailing back onto prime time.

But less than that and we have to acept it's a sport for do-ers and not fat sports fans sat on their arses swilling beer.

[Mychael]

I want to know why the Australians doesn’t have a team this go around..

Is this damm drought we are experiencing, not enough water to pratice in.:rolleyes:

Must be "climate change" lolololo

Mychael

[Stephen Ditmore]

Perhaps they could race in replicas of the original.... the schooner yacht America!

[Richard Hillsid]

Perhaps they could race in replicas of the original.... the schooner yacht America!

Now this is a good one, and should be a used for the actual or a new shadow class, it would be really interesting to see wood used to its most with today’s technologies, and the wood building talents would surely crawl out of somewhere if a descent pay was at stake, small shipyards would get a boost and schools could build too.

[Guillermo]

...So for me, people might get some interest if they play these cards - cheap nationalism and rough seas. So we need to find a fixed venue and date (Cornwall in November) and race large one designs (so every country can take part) with crews recruited exclusively from their home countries (including three female D-list celebrities with large chests) and all sailing in National costumes. There would have to be some form of ritual humiliating elimination of the last placed boat in each race with comments from a panel of experts lead by Ted Turner. However the whole results standing could be over turned by the viewers phone vote on a premium rate number, that would pay for the whole thing.,,,
Wonderful! ;)

[Guillermo]

Interesting thoughts for the future of the Cup:
"...This business model is working for the first-ever generation of sports-hero professional sailors....
....Now imagine that you're a marketing manager for a Cup team, and you have this recurring nightmare that Emirates Team New Zealand wins in 2007, and the Cup goes down under for who knows how many years to a country of 4 million, a numbing full-day's flight from either Europe or the USA.....
....The Acts have proved that America's Cup racing is a viable roadshow. Should Alinghi successfully defend, we might expect to see Vuitton Cup racing launched on an international circuit, including American ports, for serious points, with lesser teams eliminated on the road. Eventually we would get to a showdown, somewhere, for the America's Cup. In that venue I'd expect to see the knockout rounds for the final four, or perhaps the final two. Then an America's Cup match."

More at: http://sailmag.com/newAC/

[Guillermo]

FIVE WAYS TO IMPROVE THE AMERICA'S CUP
(Stuart Streuli, Senior Editor at Sailing World Magazine, provides his
thoughts on what sailing can learn from Mark Cuban, Britney Spears, and
NASCAR.)

http://www.sailingworld.com/americas-cup/people/five-ways-to-improve-the-americas-cup-50772.html

[Guillermo]

What a pity.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/blog/2007/04/permission-denied.html

[Crag Cay]

The true, traditional spirit of the America's Cup sufaces once again.

[RHough]

The true, traditional spirit of the America's Cup sufaces once again.

Yep, expecting everyone to play by the rules they agreed to ... what a concept. :)

If they had changed the rules to exclude a boat that would be a different issue. If you do not have the resources to play a game at a certain level, you shouldn't play. Pretty simple. It applies to all sports at all levels.

[Crag Cay]

Whilst there is some truth in what you say, the ISAF has been keen over recent years to make sure that the innocent party should not come out of the protest committee any worse off in the competition than the wrong doer. Or in other words, the guilty party should not gain any benefit in the competition as a result of their wrong doing. This is a more substantial role for the protest committee that in years gone by.

In this instance the the +39 boat was the 'injured' party in a basic port / starboard incident. The protest committee felt that in order to discharge their mandate for natural justice, the full compensation package for +39 should be redress for the remainder of Act 13, about 500000 US$ in compensation to +39, plus the acceptance of the offer to use the German's spare mast until such time as a replacement could be built.

Although they realised this last part would contravene part of the Challenger's deeds, a clause had been made in the provisions to allow for such an eventuality. It only required for all the Challenger syndicates to set aside self interest and allow natural justice to be done.

They had the opportunity to return to the era of Lipton and Sopworth when the Cup enjoyed massive popular support, but instead they chose to perpetuate the more unsavoury traditions of Lord Dunraven et al, which have gone such a long way in making the AC such an irrelevance to the public and many sailors alike.

*************

From Linda Frederick on Scuttlebug: In response to 'Permission Denied' in issue Scuttlebutt 2318, please extend my thanks to the Challenger Commission for staying true to the long, ugly history of no sportsmanship that is indeed the America's Cup. Just when we thought they might be acting human, encouraging broader participation, and the like--well, guess we should have known better.

I understand that there's big money at stake here, but would it hurt these miserable, petty bastards to do the gracious thing just once? The +39 Challenge seems unlikely to be all that formidable. And if they could be, all the more reason to help them stay in the game. Someone needs a good, swift kick in the transom, since we clearly can't count on anything like a sense of fairness or gallantry here. They just make us feel so proud to be sailors, don't they?

[RHough]

It is just a matter of degree is it not?

If the Port/Starboard had holed the hull and sank the boat, the fouled team would not be allowed to use a boat from another team.

In this particular situation, it was a part of the boat that could be replaced with one from another team. The rule should not be bent just because it was a mast and not a hull.

In the good old daze ... :) ... a boat that committed a foul was DSQ, if the fouls caused more than minor damage, the boat might be DSQ'd from the remainder of the regatta and be liable for damage.

I think it is of note that instead of an outcry about the lax rules regarding the penalty for committing a foul, the outcry is against the AC system, high budget events, and some perceived exclusionary tactics.

If the penalty for a foul was a DSQ not a 270 or 360 deg turn and a major foul that caused damage got you DSQ'd from the remainder of the event, I doubt that this incident would have happened. If foul = game over, you don't cut your crosses so close as to tangle rigs. The word for crews that fouled out of a multi-million dollar event would be "unemployable". :D

If there is a problem with the AC (and sailing in general) it is the reduction in penalties for fouls. It has encouraged more unsportsmanlike sailing than any AC rule. Put the blame where it belongs, at the feet of the German team that risked a 360 deg penalty turn, missed it, and ruined +39's campaign.

Why no comment about the offer of the spare mast? If you aren't going to DSQ the team, then at least pull their #1 mast out of the boat and give it to the other team. Offering a back-up spar is like offering a F-1 team your practice tyres for the race.

Bottom line still is that +39 should have had a competitive spare mast of their own. If they could not afford to have spares ... well ... they might not be up to playing in the big league.

[Guillermo]

"One or maybe more of the teams have created a legal version of a swinging keel, which could provide them with a speed edge."
More at: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/event/story.cfm?c_id=531&objectid=10434436
.....................:?:

[Guillermo]

Nice free Seahorse's guide on the AC:
http://www.seahorse.co.uk/americas/us/

[lazeyjack]

Nice free Seahorse's guide on the AC:
http://www.seahorse.co.uk/americas/us/

UM ER you said that NZ was a numbing days flight from Europe? um, actaully time in the air is min26 hrs BUT, with stops I,ve never done it in less than 36
I hope the Cup does not go 36 south cos last time, the city was stuffed for us boatbuilders, berthage went throught the roof Nz,ers became second class , and the yuppy set took over downtown, Auckland refused to host the Around Alone cos of it (for real sailors:))

[Stephen Ditmore]

I'm tuning in at http://juzou.boxstuff.net/player/versus, and there's not much question in my mind that this is the best coverage available in the U.S.

My one suggestion is that, when racing is cancelled, coverage time be used to get to know the designers, engineers, & sailmakers involved in these efforts. One possible hitherto unknown hero has already emerged: designer Harry Dunning (Mascalzone Latino). He's a former employee of both Farr & Reichel/Pugh, and apparently he's American. Where's he living & working now?

Now that Bruce Nelson is designing for Luna Rosa, are Doug Peterson & Dave Egan sitting this one out? Laurie Davidson also?

One thing that strikes me a little wacky about the Judel-Vrolijk design team: Rolf Vrolijk is designer of Alinghi, the boat(s) to beat, while Fietje Judel is designer of perhaps the slowest & most problematic boat(s) out there: those of United Internet Team Germany. What do you make of it?

[Guillermo]

Spain classified for the semi-finals!
Pip, pip, hurray!

[RANCHI OTTO]

Nice, I'm happy:p

but...but..Alinghi.....

Final btw. Alinghi and Luna Rossa!:D

[xarax]

Congratulations, Spain !

[Guillermo]

From Scuttlebut:

BUTTHEADS HAVE BOUGHT IN
The recent Scuttlebutt poll regarding the sporting interest of our readers provided a nice surprise: over half of Scuttlebutt readers were gripped by the America's Cup Louis Vuitton Challenger series. When asked what sport/ event they had been following most closely over the past week, 54.58% said it was the action in Valencia. With all the criticism the event receives (national teams are full of foreigners, the event is elitist, the boat's are ridiculous, match racing is boring, etc.), it is interesting to find that most folks have discovered that there remains a great story to follow, and that it exceeds the draw of the most prominent professional sports
available.

[Guillermo]

(From scuttlebutt)
Underdogs Desafio Espanol thanked Team New Zealand for choosing them as opponents in the America's Cup challengers' yachting semifinals beginning off Valencia next week. The Spaniards lost both their Louis Vuitton Cup round-robin meetings with Team NZ and skipper Karol Jablonski was pleased to get the chance for revenge over counterpart Dean Barker. "Dean made the right choice," he said. "It gives us the chance to pay them back, so thank you now choosing us. It's great for us to race New Zealand. We are really looking forward to it."

GO FOR THEM, GUYS!!!! :)

[Roly]

"The pressure is all on them now. We are going to enjoy it."

Good attitude from desafio!
They have come a long way in 2 &1/2 years.

[Vega]

I believe that we will have a final between NZ and USA. If the final was right away I think USA (Oracle/BMW) would win. Fact is that they had a lot more training time and a much bigger budget. But NZ team is improving fast. ;) I hope for a close match and may the best win the right to confront the Swiss team.

[Roly]

It will be interesting! With longer courses,stronger winds (later start) and more chop, I think Oracle has the edge here. >10knts
Although LVt aside, from pevious regattas, Alinghi has longer legs.
A surprise from any of the challengers would be nice.
It has my attention.:)

[Guillermo]

The chance for Spain to win is pretty remote, I know. But what if.....? Well, at least we are there, challenging the big boys!

[Vega]

Nice, I'm happy:p

but...but..Alinghi.....

Final btw. Alinghi and Luna Rossa!:D


Uau! Great win for Luna Rossa over Oracle on the first race of the semi-finals:)
I bet they left a lot of people surprised.:P

[lazeyjack]

The chance for Spain to win is pretty remote, I know. But what if.....? Well, at least we are there, challenging the big boys!

you did very well, 43 seconds is very good considering the crazy wind patterns for the first race
One thing for sure, I would,nt like to be around that Ellison if Oricle loses

[Guillermo]

We have to congratulate Luna Rossa. They're doing a hell of a job!

[Stephen Ditmore]

I agree, though with Tom Snackenberg + One World veterans James Spithill, Jonathan McKee, designer Bruce Nelson and others, perhaps it's not surprising.

San Francisco vs. Prada.... basically a replay of the 2000 LV final except that Nelson has switched sides.

[Guillermo]

Everything is possible yet....crossing fingers today!

[lazeyjack]

Guillo,
I am behind you, I saw what THE CUP did to us down there, I could not afford to launch and keep my last build in the town basin, and the prices of everything went throught the roof, besides, I,d like to see the Spanish win, be great, bon chance
Ole Vasa de Gamma will be looking down, or was he a Portugese:))

[yades]

Hi fellas,
being myself italian and due to the fact that an old classmate of mine is presently in the design team of Luna Rossa i must stress the importance of today's match race. For what I could see in Valencia during my last trip the yachts performance are very similar (perhaps, a very little difference - more or less - depending on the wind velocity....stronger winds in favour of BMW Oracle....lighter winds in favour of Luna Rossa....will see:cool:
At the present time we expect another fantastic start by J. Spithill !!!!!!!

I'm also thinking of starting a new thread on latest ultimate achievements in ACC hull lines, with highlights on lines plan latest trends, also referring to what has been highlighted by Mr P. Van Oossanen MYD'04 paper and others.

Keep smiling....:D

[Stephen Ditmore]

Yades:

I was rooting for One World in 2003. Now that our teams have combined and my other favorite, Mascalzone Latino, has been eliminated, I'm with you.
Luna Rossa all the way!One point that's interesting to me about America's Cup hull design: let's say you're optimizing your boat for 13 knots, but you also want to be fast at other windspeeds.


One option is to optimize each variable, such as Cp and ratio of stability/wetted surface, for 13 knots. Let's call this version A.

Another option is to design a boat that has a higher Cp than version A for windy/fast conditions, and less wetted surface for light conditions. We'll dub this version B.

I think there's some evidence that version B is likely to be the better ACC raceboat. Is that your take?

[Guillermo]

Desafío Español lost....:(
....but we're still on the move...! :)

Well done, Luna Rossa!

[lazeyjack]

yes but you are not getting a thrashing, I,m still with you:))

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Stu, but we lost again. Only one left to leave....:( :( :(

[yades]

Yades:

I was rooting for One World in 2003. Now that our teams have combined and my other favorite, Mascalzone Latino, has been eliminated, I'm with you.
Luna Rossa all the way!One point that's interesting to me about America's Cup hull design: let's say you're optimizing your boat for 13 knots, but you also want to be fast at other windspeeds.


One option is to optimize each variable, such as Cp and ratio of stability/wetted surface, for 13 knots. Let's call this version A.

Another option is to design a boat that has a higher Cp than version A for windy/fast conditions, and less wetted surface for light conditions. We'll dub this version B.

I think there's some evidence that version B is likely to be the better ACC raceboat. Is that your take?
I personally believe version A being more adequate (they are racing under prevailing wind conditions mainly around 9 to 11 knots. (I will soon post a new thread with lines plan and hydrost. calc for an ACC canoe body in line with the latest trends, just for general discussion/speculation with the community). It could be of somewhat interest (....maybe...).
The basic design criteria of the canoe body being as follows::!:

- Design Velocity Ratio=1.60 to 1.62
- Prevailing wind speeds 7 to 10,5 kts (force 3 Beauf.)
- Hull Vmax =12,35 kts
- Designed yacht speed =8,5 to 9,5 kts (70 to 78 % Vmax)
- Designed TQ =1,10 to 1,24
- Corresponding FN = 0,33 to 0,37
- Corresponding optimum Cp range (canoe body only) 0,535 to 0,576
(here I'd preferred to mantain the Cp towards 0,535...- version A as
you outlined -)
- BWL/LWL ratio the minimum as possible = 0,20 giving BWL=3,60 m. ca.
- Extreme U transverse hull sections leading towards Cm values in excess of O,90.
- On the above basis Tc (canoe body draft) seems somewhat reasonable
around 0,710 (Tc=(Displ/(LWL*BWL*Cp*Cm))
- From which an approx idea of (WSA) Wetted Surface Area - canoe body
only - seams reasonable being around 55 to 57 sq. m. a very good starting
point indeed.
- Ending with a ratio SA(Sail Area)/WSA = 5,80 ca. !!! ..."star wars"... values
existing only for the ACC Yachts !!!.....

These are the basic concepts behind the hull lines (..to my very personal opinion.....) :cool:

By the way....I was forgetting.....unbelievable job made by J. Spithill (!!!) on todays 5th race. A real pain...for BMW ORACLE crew....I wouldn't dear being at C. Dicksons's place @ this very moment...not even for one second..!!!!:D

[Guillermo]

Thanks for your interesting post, yades. Some discussion about AC yachts design criteria and rules has already been done in this and other threads, but I support your idea of opening a devoted one to discuss hull lines, hydros, etc.
Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

I cant see Barker being able to control Spittall, if indeed it comes to team nz and Luna Rossa
By this time BMW/O and Dickson must be dreading the starts

[Vega]

Luna Rossa raced beautifully today.. It seems the Americans are in a tight spot. They need 4 wins in a row to beat the Italians. A week ago who would have guessed these results? :rolleyes:

[Roly]

SpitHill's luck is about to run out...........law of averages....
He might have sized up Dicksons fiery temperament & force errors.
But it ain't the same against Barker.(If it eventuates)
There seems to be inflexibility in the BMO camp.Scant contingencies in place.
Perhaps Oracle is just a dog in the box,slow to turn & slow to accelerate.
Seems they could have gotten out of several of the scenarios with quicker communication/crew understanding on what they were trying to achieve.
WE will see if the stats remain the same.....ie 93% winner are
1st to topmark.Gotta read the pressure/shifts; this seems to be having more effect as the series progresses.
What if....I'm talking myself into a abyss here........

[lazeyjack]

Spittall's luck is about to run out...........law of averages....
He might have sized up Dicksons fiery temperament & force errors.
But it ain't the same against Barker.(If it eventuates)
There seems to be inflexibility in the BMO camp.Scant contingencies in place.
Perhaps Oracle is just a dog in the box,slow to turn & slow to accelerate.
Seems they could have gotten out of several of the scenarios with quicker communication/crew understanding on what they were trying to achieve.
WE will see if the stats remain the same.....ie 93% winner are
1st to topmark.Gotta read the pressure/shifts; this seems to be having more effect as the series progresses.
What if....I'm talking myself into a abyss here........
well you have good and free coverage there, here we get NONE ZILCH for free, so I cant see whats going down, , maybe there is a live website somewhere?

[charmc]

well you have good and free coverage there, here we get NONE ZILCH for free, so I cant see whats going down, , maybe there is a live website somewhere?

LJ,

This is the best web coverage, I think:

http://www.americascup.com/en/

[Roly]

L/J
Try this from SA.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53781

Might have to tweak around abit.
Haven't played with it as we are live TV and I cannot risk my OS with dodgy
downloads.Too busy workin & boatbuildin to fix a crash.

[Vega]

well you have good and free coverage there, here we get NONE ZILCH for free, so I cant see whats going down, , maybe there is a live website somewhere?


Lazey, here you can see small movies from every race:


http://www.americascupanywhere.com/internet_tv/

Click on "on demand" to see what you want to see.

[Vega]

Surprise, surprise, the American team was wipped out and the Spanish won another time. Congratulations to Desafio Español:cool: .
For the huge difference in budget between the American team and the others we would expect a better performance. What a waste of money:rolleyes:

[Guillermo]

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...? ;)
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

[RHough]

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...? ;)
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

It means that Spain didn't hire a designer with a poor track record in ACC boats. :)

I'd like to see Desafio come back to race LR in the final.

[Doug Lord]

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...? ;)
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

------------------
Congratulations, Guillermo! Go Reichel-Pugh, I mean, Desafio!
Next time: a US skipper and a US crew on a Reichel-Pugh design-and a few people like Guillermo to root for them!

[lazeyjack]

Does that mean our team and boat are better than the American...? ;)
Desafío will not get defeated that easy! Go for them boys! Nothing is lost yet!

well I keep telling you that!

[Guillermo]

Thanks, mates! If Desafío wins next thursday I'll have a heart attack! :D

[lazeyjack]

You know, I feel sorry for Chris Dickson, the NZ press and public hate him, But they have it all wrong, fine family,
Now I want LR and les espaniols to battle the final, , the LR helmsman is one of the GOOD guys, I remember when he lost in AK how tough his boss was. Lets not forget EVER, how these wonderful helmsman have to carry the brunt of all the losses Who are we to judge?

[charmc]

You know, I feel sorry for Chris Dickson, the NZ press and public hate him, But they have it all wrong, fine family,
Lets not forget EVER, how these wonderful helmsman have to carry the brunt of all the losses Who are we to judge?

Well said, L J,

The Cup has always been a competion between groups of super-wealthy folks, sort of an "Our millionaires can beat your millionaires" thing. The boardroom choices of hull and sail suppliers play a big role. Always, however, and more so now as the ACC has matured and nearly all boats are close in speed, it comes down to match race tactics and the guys on board. They're all experts, and if I were a zillionaire, I'd hire Dickson in a minute. (Chris, the odds of me achieving that staus are just a bit remote at the moment, so don't bother sending me your resume :) )

Meanwhile, congrats to LR for a great series (they're lucky the winds were light, grrr :) ), and good luck to Desafio Espanol. While I think highly of the Kiwis, it's good to see the underdogs do well.

[Vega]

...now as the ACC has matured and nearly all boats are close in speed, it comes down to match race tactics and the guys on board. ...

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.

[charmc]

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.

Vega,

I was a bit imprecise in my choice of words. I meant there is a group of boats close in performance. Just to say no one boat is far and away superior to all others in all conditions.

I agree about Ellison's replacing Dickson. More of a desperation, "Well let's try something different to shake things up" than well thought out. Better to review tactics than to replace the guy who led the effort to the semi's.

[Roly]

It went down as a very ungracious move, but perhaps there was an element of,"lets move beyond the cup and analyse what went on here".
the NZ press and public hate him I wouldn't put it quite like that LJ.The press's creditability is always taken with a grain of salt. The Dicksons are well respected here even if CD is a little on the obsessive side.

Maybe a portion of the masses,but WTF do they knoww, its doubful they know enough to vote....teehee... that should start somethin.........
pls don't state the obvious.....damn delete do'nt work......

[Stephen Ditmore]

I personally believe version A being more adequate (they are racing under prevailing wind conditions mainly around 9 to 11 knots. (I will soon post a new thread with lines plan and hydrost. calc for an ACC canoe body in line with the latest trends, just for general discussion/speculation with the community). It could be of somewhat interest (....maybe...).
The basic design criteria of the canoe body being as follows::!:

- Design Velocity Ratio=1.60 to 1.62
- Prevailing wind speeds 7 to 10,5 kts (force 3 Beauf.)
- Hull Vmax =12,35 kts
- Designed yacht speed =8,5 to 9,5 kts (70 to 78 % Vmax)
- Designed TQ =1,10 to 1,24
- Corresponding FN = 0,33 to 0,37
- Corresponding optimum Cp range (canoe body only) 0,535 to 0,576
(here I'd preferred to mantain the Cp towards 0,535...- version A as
you outlined -)
- BWL/LWL ratio the minimum as possible = 0,20 giving BWL=3,60 m. ca.
- Extreme U transverse hull sections leading towards Cm values in excess of O,90.
- On the above basis Tc (canoe body draft) seems somewhat reasonable
around 0,710 (Tc=(Displ/(LWL*BWL*Cp*Cm))
- From which an approx idea of (WSA) Wetted Surface Area - canoe body
only - seams reasonable being around 55 to 57 sq. m. a very good starting
point indeed.
- Ending with a ratio SA(Sail Area)/WSA = 5,80 ca. !!! ..."star wars"... values
existing only for the ACC Yachts !!!.....

These are the basic concepts behind the hull lines (..to my very personal opinion.....) :cool:

I don't know how your BWL/Tc compares with the boats currently racing, but I think going for a narrow, low wetted surface hull is correct. One also faces a choice in designing the keel bulb how much to emphasize wetted surface reduction vs. other design factors.

Why do I say reduce wetted surface and push prismatic? Because I believe the last three America's Cup winners (perhaps the last six) pursued that logic. Remember when Alinghi was trailing TNZ at the top of the final downwind leg in 03? The wind piped up and Alinghi got legs & blew past. I don't have inside knowledge as to what Cp each boat had.... but it's my perception that from Perth forward, the winning boat has had a highish Cp, while keeping wetted surface under control.

Vessel A will beat Vessel B in the target condition.... but not by much. The race is likely to be decided on tactics. Below the target speed an off optimum Cp doesn't matter much. SA/WSA matters far more. Above the target speed, Cp matters A LOT. That's my reasoning.

That we disagree is great.... now we can have a debate.... um.... discussion. Whatever our differences, a big high five. Luna Rossa victoriossa!

[Stephen Ditmore]

Regarding Dickson, wasn't he the beneficiary of just such a move in '92, when NZ substituted him for some kid named Russell Coutts?

[lazeyjack]

Do you really believe that? Do you believe that if the guys from NZ team raced on the French boat (Areva) they would stand a chance against the Spanish boat? Or if the guys from Luna Rossa raced on the China team boat they would have had any chance to beat the Oracle/BMW?

I have seen the Swedish team and Mascalzone latino doing very well and no matter what, being beaten in pure speed.

What Oracle/BMW has done with Chris Dickson was stupid. They should have let him fight the last race. Put all the blame on Dickson and not on the boat is wrong and inappropriate.
vega you are right, and the NZ public and press always have hated Dicckson,
this is what i wrote to one reporter after she blamed him
your continual sniping at Chris Dickson makes it palpably obvious that you hate the man,.
Because of this I bypass your reports there are just a few men in the world who can do this job So win or lose take your hat off to him. You sound like a catty bitch, I have no idea if you are or not, but thats the way you present
Stuart Hearn
Qld Au

[lazeyjack]

It went down as a very ungracious move, but perhaps there was an element of,"lets move beyond the cup and analyse what went on here".
I wouldn't put it quite like that LJ.The press's creditability is always taken with a grain of salt. The Dicksons are well respected here even if CD is a little on the obsessive side.

Maybe a portion of the masses,but WTF do they knoww, its doubful they know enough to vote....teehee... that should start somethin.........
pls don't state the obvious.....damn delete do'nt work......
did you read that Julie some one or others report in NZHERALD Roly?
i dont say thsi lightly, i lived there most of my life, sailed P,s from early,

[Roly]

L/J
Hmm..
Maybe your right, the great ,"kiwi knocking machine" is alive and well. Miserable bunch of a-holes some of us are.

BTW interesting bow profile comparison.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdc169dd1c4981ee64a326cfdab0cafcd/e96b3d9b.jpg

Alinghi,LR,TNZ,BO

[lazeyjack]

yeppers, she said"he spent 400mill of Ellisons money with nothing to show",
THAT in my book is plain bloody ridiculous Tommy Lipton would shudder in his grave
She insinuates, that all that do not come number one, are Losers!!!

[lazeyjack]

Regarding Dickson, wasn't he the beneficiary of just such a move in '92, when NZ substituted him for some kid named Russell Coutts?

Stephan,
it is a long long story, rheems long,
But he gets my thumbs up, how many skippers have done a Volvo and stuff,
And mate I build boats, after a long days grind(not these days) your posts, although brilliant, make me want to sleep, thats by no means a slurr, but should you not post that in a geeks thread for Smart and Guillermo, the likes of us artists:)) can not understand
Ya know I started when I was 13 in our national trainer, same as Coutts blake, Dickson. I am seat of pants sailor. was a very good dinghy boy, but heck I dont think I would have done much good with this high techo stuff

[charmc]

"She insinuates, that all that do not come number one, are Losers!!!" lazeyjack

She could get a job in the US as a reporter, or better yet, as an airhead news reader on TV. Here they routinely report that boats and ships "travel at a speed of ___ knots per hour". :rolleyes:

[lazeyjack]

L/J
Hmm..
Maybe your right, the great ,"kiwi knocking machine" is alive and well. Miserable bunch of a-holes some of us are.

BTW interesting bow profile comparison.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdc169dd1c4981ee64a326cfdab0cafcd/e96b3d9b.jpg

Alinghi,LR,TNZ,BO
mm, becuz of shading cant see sections, pity cos I think some sections forwards look better offwind in some boats, please can you post the EXACT body plans:))

[yades]

L/J
Hmm..
Maybe your right, the great ,"kiwi knocking machine" is alive and well. Miserable bunch of a-holes some of us are.

BTW interesting bow profile comparison.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdc169dd1c4981ee64a326cfdab0cafcd/e96b3d9b.jpg

Nice comparing pictures from where hull volumes distributions could be easly spotted. It's clearly evident the different approaches in the canoe body lines design. ;)
In terms of Cp (e.g.) I would guess::idea:
BMWO.........= 0,52<Cp<0,53
Luna Rossa..= 0,53<Cp<0,54
TNZ............= 0,54<Cp<0,55
Alinghi........= 0,55<Cp<0,56
That's is one more good reason to hope viewing a Final of the 32nd AC to be performed by Alinghi and Luna Rossa on prevailing wind condition of 10 to 12 kts approx. (as it has so far occured in Valencia). :D
Alinghi being most probably best performing downwind (depending on wind speed too)
Luna Rossa being best performing upwind (as she has so far demonstrate)
To my opinion I would personally go for an unbeatable hull upwind (thus gaining in VMG) rather then a best performing hull on offwind allures. At least on this part of the world with meteo condition such as the ones so far encountered in Valencia:cool:

[Roly]

please can you post the EXACT body plans)

I would print the offsets if they were pilferable, except that of TNZ of course.;) Might make some sense of them reading the comments.

From an raw beginners point of view,BO looks like she wouldn't turn so well
per unit rudder area,LR looks flatter in cradle section and a pretty foil with fine entry & super slabsided,maybe better all rounder? TNZ ,opposite to BO (hollows) in entry,similar mid section canoe to others but volume forward,Alingi,well,more conventional?Sheesh,help me out someone......
I don't know the date or model number.

[Vega]

L/J


BTW interesting bow profile comparison.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdc169dd1c4981ee64a326cfdab0cafcd/e96b3d9b.jpg

Alinghi,LR,TNZ,BO

Very interesting. The hulls of Luna Rossa and TNZ seem to be more flat than the others but of course, the light is not the same and it can misguide us.

[Roly]

Luna Rossa being best performing upwind (as she has so far demonstrate)

Is that because of fine entry and narrow lower body section? (From what we can see) Even though the cradle x-section is flatter than the rest.
If you look at the sillouette of the sheer against the sky, LR looks like a scalpel compared with Alingi.

.

[Vega]

No races today and probably also tomorrow. It is blowing 25K. It is hard for me to accept big racing boats that can not deal with 25k of wind and in Valencia they can have a problem with that. Now that the summer is coming it is not unusual that the wind stays (on the sea) over the 20k mark for several days.

I intend to see the final there and I have booked allowing for the postponing of several race days due to excess of wind. I hope I am right:D

[charmc]

No races today and probably also tomorrow. It is blowing 25K. It is hard for me to accept big racing boats that can not deal with 25k of wind :D

That's a criticism levelled against the Cup racers by many: big costly prima donna boats good at making speed in light airs, but too fragile to have any relation to the real world. Of course, you could say the same thing about Formula One auto racers.

They are beautiful doing what they are designed to do, IMHO.

[Vega]

That's a criticism levelled against the Cup racers by many: big costly prima donna boats good at making speed in light airs, but too fragile to have any relation to the real world. Of course, you could say the same thing about Formula One auto racers.


F1 race on an artificial track. The boats race on the sea, a natural track:D that changes all the time ( racingboats are more like all ground racing machines:p ).

I am not talking about stormy weather. Most boats (and any other sailboat of that size) have no problem at all sailing with 25k winds, 25k winds are usual stuff so why have boats that can not handle "normal" conditions? That does not make much sense to me.

[xarax]

It seems that "old Europe" is still going strong...

[xarax]

It seems that "old Europe" is still going strong...

[Guillermo]

Luna Rossa did a wonderful job, indeed, and Desafío is holding tight. Crossing fingers.....:)

[Stephen Ditmore]

It was pointed out to me last night that Luna Rossa's name resembles that of my middle daughter, Leah Rose. Perhaps that's my bias.

Is that non-technical enough?

[Stephen Ditmore]

I just noticed something in the photo above. Did Luna Rossa borrow Mascalzone Latino's boom?

[lazeyjack]

No races today and probably also tomorrow. It is blowing 25K. It is hard for me to accept big racing boats that can not deal with 25k of wind and in Valencia they can have a problem with that. Now that the summer is coming it is not unusual that the wind stays (on the sea) over the 20k mark for several days.

I intend to see the final there and I have booked allowing for the postponing of several race days due to excess of wind. I hope I am right:D
i remember watching down in Ak when it was on the limit, the breaking carbon makes a most expensive sound

[lazeyjack]

F1 race on an artificial track. The boats race on the sea, a natural track:D that changes all the time ( racingboats are more like all ground racing machines:p ).

I am not talking about stormy weather. Most boats (and any other sailboat of that size) have no problem at all sailing with 25k winds, 25k winds are usual stuff so why have boats that can not handle "normal" conditions? That does not make much sense to me.

don't forget Paulo, they can't just chuck in a reef

[Vega]

It was pointed out to me last night that Luna Rossa's name resembles that of my middle daughter, Leah Rose. Perhaps that's my bias.


Well, I believe that Rossa is red in Italian and Rose is Rosa in Italian and in Portuguese...and that's also the name of my daughter;)
Luna Rossa means Red moon and that's a nice name for a boat (it sounds better in Italian), a lot better than Areva or Oracle or Desafio. That's also my prefered even if there are Portugueses on the crew of Desafio and on the crew of the NZ boat.

[Vega]

don't forget Paulo, they can't just chuck in a reef

They can change the sail.

[lazeyjack]

They can change the sail.

yes but changing sails does not stop them taking on big loads of water, and they are not designed for this

[lazeyjack]

on the other hand this guy is very popular, i hope they take the Louis Vuitton
Yachting: De Angelis aiming for third time lucky
5:00AM Wednesday May 23, 2007
By Julie Ash
Luna Rossa skipper Francesco de Angelis. Photo / Reuters

Luna Rossa skipper Francesco de Angelis. Photo / Reuters
America's Cup

* Bad weather delays racing in America's Cup overnight
* Yachting: Future British team buys Alinghi boat

Luna Rossa skipper Francesco de Angelis will go into the challenger series final in Valencia having learned from his previous two campaigns.

De Angelis and Prada are now in their third campaign. They made their impressive debut in 2000, beating America One in an epic battle to advance to the America's Cup match.

"The first one taught us about enthusiasm and how you approach it for the first time, not knowing much but just having a lot of drive and focus and how that can lead to success," he said.

The Italian syndicate returned in 2003, only to be eliminated in the semifinals. The campaign was marred by dissatisfaction with their boat speed.

"The second one we learned you can sometimes make things complicated by yourself.

"This time I was thinking about that and I tried to make it as simple as I could. Just to have simpler and more clear goals, enjoy the game, keep up your schedule and surround yourself with good people."

The Luna Rossa team looked sound and strong in their semifinal drubbing of Chris Dickson's BMW Oracle Racing. While their performance in the round-robin was okay, the Italians found another gear against Oracle.

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Chris Dickson said of them: "Luna Rossa have improved their upwind sails significantly, they improved their downwind sails, they have improved their starting, their crew work, their windshift calls on many, many levels."

When asked about their huge improvement in performance, de Angelis said it was much harder than the score reflected.

"We have been taking it step by step, working on improving the boat and ourselves. The game itself is complicated and each team follows its own path and is full of smart, talented people. You have to be clear what steps to take at your own speed."

There is also the "Schnackenberg" factor. One must not forget that Luna Rossa have in their artillery Tom Schnackenberg, the man Denis Conner once described as having the best brain in yachting.

When asked who he'd like to have as an opponent in the final, which starts on June 1, de Angelis tactfully answered: "That is a problem those two guys have to sort out for themselves."

[Guillermo]

Well, Desafío is out of the game...:( ....but they did a very nice job. :)
Now I'll become a great fan of Luna Rossa.
When I was young I read a book I liked a lot which's title was "Luna Roja, Tiempo Cálido" (Red Moon, Hot Weather). Little to do with boats, as it was an story about the dessert and Tuaregs, but from then on I love the name Red Moon.

LUNA ROSSA, LUNA ROSSA....!!!

[Roly]

New meaning to "box rule"!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pa082ba14740802ab31cb66529bde4d92/e9643b37.jpg


ITA94 looks a radical deviation. Just how would it go to weather?
Now I understand the term "sled"!

Ever gracious, the spanish team;sad to see them go.

May the cool calm of barker prevail over Spithill's fire.;)

[Vega]

Look at that hull! It is almost flat.
It looks that it is not only the Open 60s that have flat hulls:D

Seriously, this looks to be a new tendency. From that picture with the four boats that you have posted previously, it looks also that the NZ boat has also a "flat" hull, and they are the winners. I wonder how would be the one from Alinghy?

[lazeyjack]

sorry Guillermo:(( but you did well, now I want to see LR win, they played that song at their camp in AK over and over, it drove the Kiwis nut
cheers Stu
I still don't know your email address, can you IM it to me

[joz]

I have just got the Yachting Worlds latest edition here in Australia to which a new boat is on the market which is called the Twelve OD Class, this class is being described as an America’s cup look alike which got me thinking is there a cheaper way of having yacht racing to which gets more people on the water by having a Mini America’s Cup Class Or to totally replace the current rules in favour of such simpler rules like what’s listed below.

What are people’s thoughts on such a rule and would something like this could work and get more countries involved in the America’s Cup Race?

Here is a list of what I have come up with.

The Rules

* Each team shall supply one boat only for the entire cup.
* The hull length shall not be more than 12 metres LOA Max, but all other dimensions, weights etc is to be left up to the designer/s
* It can be a monohull shape or multihull shape.
* It’s to be crewed by 5-6 people max (in any combination of all male, all female or mixed) and that all crew members are to be amateur sailors and the boat must be easy to use and sail
* No cabin, Open cockpit only, and the layout isn’t cluttered/ing as to cause injury or death or loss of time especially in racing.
* It’s to be self drainage hull
* Self righting capability, if capsized
* Sailing rig/s and sail cloth is left up to the designer/s (be inventive)
* No power winches are allowed or installed.
* No engines are allowed or installed
* Very basic electronic gear is allowed for navigation, compass, depth, wind speed/direction, speed.
* The use of modern technology such as decanting keels, water ballast etc is allowed and that all appendages underwater is left up to the designer/s
* Construction can only be made from any wooden construction method, any fibreglass construction method, any foam construction method or any steel or alloy construction method. Note: that Kevlar/Carbon Fibre shall not be used to build the entire boat, but however that Kevlar/Carbon Fibre can only be used in reinforcements or strengthening areas only that has lots of stress can have Kevlar/Carbon Fibre to prevent any damage etc.
* All boats must adhered to all safety requirements and standards set by the ISAF and their country of origan and country of sailing.
* The cost of the boat shall not exceed 10 million AUD this includes transportation costs to and from racing plus all other costs that is to be included etc etc as well.
* All receipts must be collected and will be passed onto the judges for conformation and each team shall sign an agreement to which all receipts are true and correct.
* A team of accountants will be made up of 3 members from each participating team to which the team must supply a highly qualified that specializes in auditing/taxation to go and scrutinize all receipts. The Accountants shall scrutinize receipts not from their own team but other teams and the accountants shall have that information when they are given it to them on a date to be set. The team shall have 2 accountants checking and the third one overseeing. The team will then report their findings to the race organisers.
* Any team found to be guilty and in breach of the rules will not only be disquilifed and shall forfeit the next 10 Races (that’s 10 races that held at every 4 years so that’s 40 yrs before that they re-enter the race to which they team will be not able to compete after long periods of not in this type of race.) also that they (the team) shall have their boats seized from them and destroyed and all costs shall be borne by the team as a whole.
* The designer must supply their plans for checking to see if the boat meets the rules as specified or to have something clarified. It would be advisable to have the team’s designer/s at the event.
* The race shall be held every 4 years at a different location as so to not advantage any one team or person.
* All crew members are to be amateur sailors, but all accommodation, meals, transport, team clothing etc etc will be paid for by the team organisers to which a minimum standard of accommodation is 5 star, meals etc are to be the same standard as the accommodation. Note this also applies for the rest of the team (support staff) that are not participating in the sailing itself.

[PI Design]

Three accountatnts per team! There goes your AUS$10million budget... Nice move insisting on 5 star hotels and food - gotta keep standards up!

[Paul Scott]

I forgot who said it, but they really ARE going to look like Int. 110's soon! Gotta get rid of that pesky transom, though.......

Manfred Curry might be proud- All they need now are some transom mounted water brakes. (Would those be legal?)

Or how about the unforgettable Reinhard Drewitz? The 10 sq m monotype regains it's rightful place among the great sailing machines!!!!!!

Paul

[Guillermo]

As ETNZ tactician Terry Hutchinson sees LR against ETZN:
"I think the score will come down to how we go with them when it's windy, and how they go with us when it's lighter. Their hull shape pushes them that way [toward liking more breeze]. Maybe 10-12 knots versus 14-16. The BMW Oracle guys tell us that Luna Rossa has definitely gotten faster."

Kimball Livingston's GOT LIVE blog, full report:
http://sailmagazine.blogspot.com/2007/05/blood-in-water.html

[lazeyjack]

As ETNZ tactician Terry Hutchinson sees LR against ETZN:
"I think the score will come down to how we go with them when it's windy, and how they go with us when it's lighter. Their hull shape pushes them that way [toward liking more breeze]. Maybe 10-12 knots versus 14-16. The BMW Oracle guys tell us that Luna Rossa has definitely gotten faster."

Kimball Livingston's GOT LIVE blog, full report:
http://sailmagazine.blogspot.com/2007/05/blood-in-water.html

go www.nzherald.co.nz. dial into yachting or AC there you will find many interviews as they come with Dalton and variosu other Emirates Team NZ people

[lazeyjack]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/event/index.cfm?c_id=531

Former Team New Zealand and Alinghi skipper Russell Coutts believes Team New Zealand has the better boat heading into the Louis Vuitton Cup final with Luna Rossa. Coutts said the black boat looks good for the light Valencia conditions, with a distinct advantage in downwind boat speed. He is confident… More

[Roly]

What we don't know, is what the comparative, to ETNZ, boat speed/manouvreability mode changes that LR made last. They blew BO out of the water;Was that BO screwup or did LR make significant gains in remoding?
Are we going to get the 8-10knts or 10-12 or 12-14? I hope the conditions make an even playing field with a mix.Looking forward to some close racing!!
Go ETNZ!!!

[yades]

the hull lines are making for sure the difference, in light to moderate breeze conditions (i refer to LR mostly...) however the meticolous....and extreme attention paid to the least detail, made for sure by the crew of LR, has made the fundamental difference. At this stage after many races, sails, spars, rigging and equipment test, I believe a thorough tune-up of the vsl/crew as a whole is @ this point of utmost importance and consequently it makes the real upturn in perfomance (I recon..!!:p ). .
Furthermore regarding the recent trends in ACC Canoe Body Lines I will post a new thread with some technical speculations on the subject, including alleged lines plan and hydros/parameters on what :!: I believe being a reasonable outcome for best performance in prevailing wind conditions explaining "whys" from infos and docs so far gathered.....(hope of interest.....)

brgds:cool:

[Guillermo]

(Scuttlebutt)
No love: Coutts thinks the Italian entry will lose, the 'buttheads thinks so too, and now the Luna Rossa helm James Spithill is now not getting much love from his country. Australian fans will NOT be seeing any of the Louis Vuitton Cup final live on TV. Fox Sports, which holds the Australian rights, will run a highlights package of the LV final afterwards on June 14. However, Fox Sports' current plan is to provide live coverage of the America's Cup match, which begins on June 23rd.

Scuttlebutt's Poll:

# Emirates Team New Zealand - 51.46%
# Luna Rossa Challenge - 48.54%

[lazeyjack]

(Scuttlebutt)
No love: Coutts thinks the Italian entry will lose, the 'buttheads thinks so too, and now the Luna Rossa helm James Spithill is now not getting much love from his country. Australian fans will NOT be seeing any of the Louis Vuitton Cup final live on TV. Fox Sports, which holds the Australian rights, will run a highlights package of the LV final afterwards on June 14. However, Fox Sports' current plan is to provide live coverage of the America's Cup match, which begins on June 23rd.

Scuttlebutt's Poll:

# Emirates Team New Zealand - 51.46%
# Luna Rossa Challenge - 48.54%
we ger saturated with games called ruggy league which is a game of dull repitition and afl, WHICH IS A TOTALLY undecipherable mess and in which when one team loses instead of shaking hands withe the opposition, they burst into tears,
I can listen live on pc at www.newstalkzb.co.nz, and IF the commentators are good I get pleasure and can (SEE) THE BOATS ANYWAYS, NOT THE SAME BUT i ALREADY SAID aUST. NOT A SAILING NATION AT ALL, whoops scuse caps

[Roly]

SA's poll. 43% to LR
34% to ETNZ

AND,
ETNZ practising with Alinghi today!
Very chummy.....
Is this innocuous,a payback, or downright unsporting?
Fecked if I know....:confused: Is it even legal?
BTW, I am a ETNZ supporter.

In a boat of unknown serial and old sails guess that deems it friendly
rivalry,like playing pingpong? eh!

[lazeyjack]

New meaning to "box rule"!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pa082ba14740802ab31cb66529bde4d92/e9643b37.jpg


ITA94 looks a radical deviation. Just how would it go to weather?
Now I understand the term "sled"!

Ever gracious, the spanish team;sad to see them go.

May the cool calm of barker prevail over Spithill's fire.;)

those boats , the lines, they stopped looking like, er, um, yachts, ugly bloody things, ah but but the sails, mouth watering

[Guillermo]

"Emirates Team New Zealand won an incredibly close match over Luna Rossa Challenge on Friday to take a 1-0 lead in the Final of the Louis Vuitton Cup. The Kiwis never led by more than 12-seconds around the race course."
DELTA 0:08
GO, LUNA ROSSA!

[lazeyjack]

"Emirates Team New Zealand won an incredibly close match over Luna Rossa Challenge on Friday to take a 1-0 lead in the Final of the Louis Vuitton Cup. The Kiwis never led by more than 12-seconds around the race course."
DELTA 0:08
GO, LUNA ROSSA!

yes i ddi not find a place to view, but seems like it is anyones cup,

[Guillermo]

(Scuttlebutt)
After three days of racing in the Louis Vuitton Challenger finals, Emirates
Team New Zealand (NZL) is up 3 wins to none for the Luna Rossa Challenge
(ITA). The 'buttheads had indicated such a result in the pre-event poll, but
surely they did not expect a shut-out at this stage. Differences in boat
speed - if any - do not appear to be driving this result. While surely not
slow, the Kiwi team is leading this series because they have consistently
converted the first puff/ shift into a well-managed advantage all the way to
the finish.

The starting rhythm that the Italian team so elegantly performed in their
shellacking of BMW Oracle Racing has been reduced to karaoke bar choir.
Their first race start was only okay, the second start was late and slow,
and the third start was, well, let's let Paul Cayard walk us through it:
"Jesse James Spithill appeared Sunday for the first four minutes of the
prestart. He managed to block Dean from maneuvering, but then with 1 minute
to go and his opponent trapped above the line, he mysteriously gybed away
and went for the left end of the line. It was very hard for us spectators to
understand this final minute of the prestart. In fact, Team New Zealand said
after the race that they thought they were done for and suddenly found
themselves getting the start they wanted at the right side of the line."

:( :( :(

[lazeyjack]

(Scuttlebutt)
After three days of racing in the Louis Vuitton Challenger finals, Emirates
Team New Zealand (NZL) is up 3 wins to none for the Luna Rossa Challenge
(ITA). The 'buttheads had indicated such a result in the pre-event poll, but
surely they did not expect a shut-out at this stage. Differences in boat
speed - if any - do not appear to be driving this result. While surely not
slow, the Kiwi team is leading this series because they have consistently
converted the first puff/ shift into a well-managed advantage all the way to
the finish.

The starting rhythm that the Italian team so elegantly performed in their
shellacking of BMW Oracle Racing has been reduced to karaoke bar choir.
Their first race start was only okay, the second start was late and slow,
and the third start was, well, let's let Paul Cayard walk us through it:
"Jesse James Spithill appeared Sunday for the first four minutes of the
prestart. He managed to block Dean from maneuvering, but then with 1 minute
to go and his opponent trapped above the line, he mysteriously gybed away
and went for the left end of the line. It was very hard for us spectators to
understand this final minute of the prestart. In fact, Team New Zealand said
after the race that they thought they were done for and suddenly found
themselves getting the start they wanted at the right side of the line."

:( :( :(
everyone knows Aussies can be bought:)

[yades]

I start being more and more convinced that is (besides evrything else) the TNZ boat performance by herself which makes the real difference!. I've noticed that VMG has always been in favour (by 0.3 to 0.5kts) of TNZ, for example during the last two races. This means that either the sails have a better cut or the use of the sail type was not adequate to the wind speed encountered, or ......something unusual hase been done to the LR appendage configuration. A new certificate, I heard, has been issued .....would be interesting to know the adjustements beeing made to the....... bulb....winglets....trim-tab....rudder.....who knows..:?:
But it seems to me that some minimal adjustement have been made to LR so as to destabilise the critical compromise attained, resulting in an utter detrimental effect over the yacht performance !!!
I would strongly wish I'd be wrong....:confused:
Will see tomorrow the elapsed time on the first upwind buoy.......:cool:

[yades]

Nice comparing pictures from where hull volumes distributions could be easly spotted. It's clearly evident the different approaches in the canoe body lines design. ;)
In terms of Cp (e.g.) I would guess::idea:
BMWO.........= 0,52<Cp<0,53
Luna Rossa..= 0,53<Cp<0,54
TNZ............= 0,54<Cp<0,55
Alinghi........= 0,55<Cp<0,56
That's is one more good reason to hope viewing a Final of the 32nd AC to be performed by Alinghi and Luna Rossa on prevailing wind condition of 10 to 12 kts approx. (as it has so far occured in Valencia). :D
Alinghi being most probably best performing downwind (depending on wind speed too)
Luna Rossa being best performing upwind (as she has so far demonstrate)
To my opinion I would personally go for an unbeatable hull upwind (thus gaining in VMG) rather then a best performing hull on offwind allures. At least on this part of the world with meteo condition such as the ones so far encountered in Valencia:cool:
As previously outlined !!! ....it appears TNZ having a more adequate boat for upwind performance gains in terms of VMG and an optimum canoe body volume distribution for optimum speed at the designed conditions......Who could disagree on that ??

[Roly]

That pretty much sums it up for me.Although I think optimum choice of sails for the conditions of the day have had the most effect on ETNZ. And, probably new, unstretched at that.
Couple that with outstanding crewing and good weather calls and you have a winner. Can nailing that number of variables last? Law of averages sayes no.
For now they are on a roll.

[lazeyjack]

Roly
i do not care who wins, but last time NZ had cup it really screwed AK for us boatbuilders, the price of berthage went through roof. best for the cup if team nz emirates kept it in Eu?

[Roly]

best for the cup if team nz emirates kept it in Eu?

I agree, as much as I would enjoy the access here.I ain't getting to EU.
They gotta win it first.

[Vega]

Finished....5-0:(

And now Alinghy is going to win 5-0 against the NZ - Emirates boat? :(
I really hope not, but I have my doubts.:rolleyes:

[Roly]

And now Alinghy is going to win 5-0 against the NZ
Not this time!:)
If you count the stats,ETNZ have shifted up a notch.
Alinghi have a had no pressure sailing conditioning.
Although the wait for the AC could see ETNZ going off the boil.:?:
Lets See if Grant can keep them focussed.

[Guillermo]

Well, we have to congratulate ETNZ, no doubt. 5 in a row is impressive!
I hope Alinghi will win, so nex time we will have the Cup back again in Valencia.....;)

[RANCHI OTTO]

I'm sorry Guillermo, but according to the last news, if Alinghi will win the A.C., the races will take place in Italy.....and not more in Spain.....:D

[Guillermo]

We'll see, we'll see.....:P

[RANCHI OTTO]

I would prefer Spain.....you know my love for your country....;)

[Guillermo]

An interesting analysis of ETNZ vs Alinghi at Scuttlebutt:
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/0619/

[Roly]

Interesting summary.
Waiting...waiting...waiting....
Just what piece of intrigue will be unveiled........
Thoroughly self indulgent, but I secretly love it.
Bring back a 70% nationality rule!

[Guillermo]

This America’s Cup just keeps getting better, and more interesting....
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/gj/#Race3

[sailsmall]

Nationality rules are unenforceable on any realistic basis. And I don't want to wait another 4 to 6 years for another edition. So, as much as I want the underdog to prevail, I hope that Alinghi takes it and defends again, soon.

[Guillermo]

The score now stands 2-2 in this best of nine series. Here is what we have learned to date: Alinghi has a slight edge upwind. Under 11 knots NZ is about the same speed. Both crews have made a few small, but costly, mistakes. The margin of error is tiny. For this reason there will be a lot more theatrics in the rest of this regatta.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/gj/#Race4

[charmc]

Some very good and close racing. Great to see, regardless of the outcome!

[PI Design]

Alinghi wins the cup! 5-2

Very close final race, just 2 seconds in it as Alinghi's crawl across the line (eith no mainsail) just before ETNZ complete their penalty turns.

[Roly]

Congratulations to Alinghi........and to ETNZ for a very exciting contest!
Watch out though, looks like TNZ are back for 2009!
It will be interesting to see who is sailing for who in 2009.

[xarax]

Congratulations to both of them, Kiwis-Defenders and Kiwis- Challengers. They tried hard and succeeded: moving these ACC dinosaurs with such elegance was a great achievement indeed. A New Zealand s Cup once more.

[RANCHI OTTO]

W Alinghi..next time in Italy....(Trapani?)

[Stephen Ditmore]

Nice comparing pictures from where hull volumes distributions could be easly spotted. It's clearly evident the different approaches in the canoe body lines design. ;)
In terms of Cp (e.g.) I would guess::idea:
BMWO.........= 0,52<Cp<0,53
Luna Rossa..= 0,53<Cp<0,54
TNZ............= 0,54<Cp<0,55
Alinghi........= 0,55<Cp<0,56
That's is one more good reason to hope viewing a Final of the 32nd AC to be performed by Alinghi and Luna Rossa on prevailing wind condition of 10 to 12 kts approx. (as it has so far occured in Valencia). :D
Alinghi being most probably best performing downwind (depending on wind speed too)
Luna Rossa being best performing upwind (as she has so far demonstrate)
To my opinion I would personally go for an unbeatable hull upwind (thus gaining in VMG) rather then a best performing hull on offwind allures. At least on this part of the world with meteo condition such as the ones so far encountered in Valencia:cool:

Isn't it interesting that the four boats above finished in exactly the order of their Cp .... if YADES ordering of them is correct. My take is that a higher Cp gives a boat the ability to pass another boat when a gust comes along, especially downwind when the trailing boat gets the gust first (and can cover the opponent). So the best designers don't optimize Cp for the boat's average speed. They optimize Cp for the gusts and use narrow, low wetted surface sections to offset any light air disadvantage.

[Roly]

Food for thought,alright!
On another tack. I'm dissapointed in the embryonic 90' rule.
All the new entrants;How do they feel? Great welcome to the AC huh!
Hope it doesn't get off the ground--lack of entrants.
Ernie doesn't seem to have empathy with the sailing "public".
I think they are just trying to drive home the last nail in the nationalistic coffin.

[Guillermo]

From Scuttlebutt:

SPORTS AND COURTS
From the moment that the Alinghi team, winner of the 32nd America's Cup,
presented the Protocol on July 5th for the next event, questions about its
validity in Valencia grew rampant. The date of the event was not stated, nor
was the type of boat defined. Alinghi had labeled the Spanish challenge of
Club Náutico Español de Vela (Desafio Espanol) as the Challenger of Record,
whose role with the defender is to define the rules for the 33rd event.
However, with so much power being bestowed on the defender, and so little
protection being provided to the challengers, the Spanish press attacked,
calling the Club Náutico Español de Vela mere puppets of Alinghi.

Since the Protocol was announced, most of the challengers have met
informally a few days ago in Valencia to share their concerns, and now the
Golden Gate Yacht Club (BMW Oracle Racing team) has officially launched the
first frontal assault. They have submitted notice to the defender's club,
Societe Nautique de Geneve (SNG), that the Spanish challenge is invalid
based on the terms of the Deed of Gift, and therefore the Protocol is
equally invalid. Among other deficiencies are that the Spanish apparently
formed a club for their challenge only a few days before their challenge was
accepted by SNG, and that it has never held an annual regatta as is required
by the Deed.

While the 32nd America's Cup was for the most part clear of courtroom drama,
the 33rd rendition looks to be back in the saddle. Here is the letter that
the Golden Gate Yacht Club has presented to SNG that details their position,
and presents themselves on behalf of the BMW Oracle Racing team as the new
Challenger of Record: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/07/0712

* Return volley: The BYM News website has posted a translated response from
the Spanish challenge: http://www.bymnews.com/news/newsDetails.php?id=11971

[Guillermo]

"An arbitration panel validated Desafio Español's position as official challenger to Alinghi for the next America's Cup.

The three-member panel ruled that Societe Nautique de Geneve, the home club of the Swiss champions, was right to accept the challenge of the Club Nautico Español de Vela."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/08/sports/EU-SPT-SAI-Americas-Cup-Official-Challenger.php

[water addict]

"An arbitration panel validated Desafio Español's position as official challenger to Alinghi for the next America's Cup.

The three-member panel ruled that Societe Nautique de Geneve, the home club of the Swiss champions, was right to accept the challenge of the Club Nautico Español de Vela."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/08/sports/EU-SPT-SAI-Americas-Cup-Official-Challenger.php

An abritration panel appointed by Alinghi.

An absolute farce.

AC enters the world of professional wrestling.

[Roly]

After a brief hearing in the New York Supreme Court today before Justice Cahn, the Société Nautique de Genève (SNG) is pleased to announce that the Judge did not grant theGolden Gate Yacht Club’s (GGYC) application for an injunction, and instead ordered the parties to submit written legal arguments designed to dispose of the case in the shortest possible time. The Judge set the 22 October as the date to hear legal arguments to resolve the central issue, which focuses on the validity of Club Náutico Español de Vela (CNEV), the Spanish challenge, accepted by the SNG after winning the 32nd America’s Cup.
The Spanish challenge, CNEV, also advised the Court that it will intervene in the case as a party so as to reinforce and confirm its legal standing as Challenger of Record for the 33rd America’s Cup.

Importantly, this is the second successful legal outcome in only a matter of days, following the America’s Cup Arbitration Panel’s ruling over the weekend that declared legitimate the Challenger of Record, and that the 33rd Protocol complies with the Deed of Gift.

“Naturally we are pleased with this outcome which is another welcome positive result in this unfortunate legal process,” said Hamish Ross, Alinghi General Counsel, adding: “As we had asked the Court, SNG will be submitting, as planned, its motion to dismiss the case entirely, and we look forward to having an opportunity to clear this matter up as quickly as possible on the date set by the Court. We now need to draw a line under the uncertainty and damage created by the Golden Gate Yacht Club and BMW Oracle Racing’s actions and focus on the future.”

Meanwhile work continues apace on the 33rd Americas Cup in Valencia following the first Competitors Commission meeting on Friday of last week and with further meetings being scheduled. This period of consultation with the five registered challengers runs until the end of October when the new class rule will be published, ensuring that the America’s Cup remains at the pinnacle of international sailing.

Just a preamble to the real arguments. I hope,or the AC will be tarnished further.
"following the America’s Cup Arbitration Panel’s ruling over the weekend "
This was a media excercise.Note it was held just days before the court hearing.

[Guillermo]

From Scuttlebutt:
DIVIDING THE PIE - AMERICA'S CUP STYLE
AC Management (ACM), organiser of the 32nd America's Cup, announced that
they would be distributing 90% of the EUR 66.5 millions net surplus the
event generated over the past four years to participating teams. This EUR
66.5 million surplus comes from a total revenue of EUR 240 million,
generated largely through the city bid and the four year sponsorship
program, but also through TV rights, the hospitality program and the
concessions and marinas of Port America's Cup.

To provide a little clarity as to exactly what this means, the Protocol for
the 32nd event stated that for any surplus remaining after the event, the
Defender gets 45%, the Challengers (as a group) get 45%, and ACM receives
10% as a management fee. We assume that the EUR 240m is the gross revenue,
and that after expenses, there was about 30% remaining, or approximately EUR
73.9m. After ACM took their 10% cut of about EUR 7.4m (approx USD 10.3M), we
get to the EUR 66.5m amount mentioned in their announcement, of which
Alinghi gets half (EUR 33.25m). The remaining EUR 33.25M (approx USD 46.1m)
get divided amongst the 11 challengers. -- Here is the complete ACM
announcement: http://33rd.americascup.com/en/index.php?idcontent=15&idpage=1

[Guillermo]

From Scuttlebutt:

LAST-MINUTE NEGOTIATION SETTLES CUP DISPUTE
A resolution to the America's Cup stalemate came today from unexpected source. Bill Goggins, President of Sail America, announced that his organization has brokered an agreement between the rival syndicates. In a brief press release, Goggins announced that the next Cup will be sailed in the singlehanded A-Class Catamaran. "The A Cat is an obvious choice," says Goggins. "Both teams agree that accepting the class cuts down on preparation time, limits the expenses, and generally expedites the competition so the Cup can move ahead."
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com:80/
;)

[RHough]

From Scuttlebutt:

LAST-MINUTE NEGOTIATION SETTLES CUP DISPUTE
A resolution to the America's Cup stalemate came today from unexpected
source. Bill Goggins, President of Sail America, announced that his
organization has brokered an agreement between the rival syndicates. In a
brief press release, Goggins announced that the next Cup will be sailed in
the singlehanded A-Class Catamaran. "The A Cat is an obvious choice," says
Goggins. "Both teams agree that accepting the class cuts down on preparation
time, limits the expenses, and generally expedites the competition so the
Cup can move ahead."

What is the date on that story ..? :D

[Roly]

:D :D
My apologies...but it is April 1st & rumour moungering is rife especially in these last few hours.
I think Randy just might know the source. :cool:
As in individual(s) from another forum where good ideas,good minds,up to the minute info, and downright lies
abound.

[Paul Scott]

In a move to keep the AC sailing monohulls, I have heard it's going to be sailed out on Moths, designed and built between now and the event, May 12, 2008. I could not pin down who might be designing the boats, but Doug Petersons' name has been floating around.

Interestingly enough, Bertarelli and Ellison will be the sailors. According to my sources, the final choice came down between Mini 12's, DC's, Snarks, and the Moth. Both sailors are dieting, and the venue will be announced later, although Lake Zurich and San Fransisco Bay are touted as front runners. Observers are quite certain that a nuetral site will win out though, as both sites, although obvious, are problematic.

Please know that the release of information concerning the A Class catamaran as the sail off class is FALSE, and NOT to be given credibility.

That's all I have for now.

[brian eiland]

What is the date on that story ..? :D
Guillermo is from Spain, so Im not so sure he knows of 'April Fools' day

[Paul Scott]

He will now.....

[Guillermo]

;) ;) ;)

[Doug Lord]

In a move to keep the AC sailing monohulls, I have heard it's going to be sailed out on Moths, designed and built between now and the event, May 12, 2008. I could not pin down who might be designing the boats, but Doug Petersons' name has been floating around.

Interestingly enough, Bertarelli and Ellison will be the sailors. According to my sources, the final choice came down between Mini 12's, DC's, Snarks, and the Moth. Both sailors are dieting, and the venue will be announced later, although Lake Zurich and San Fransisco Bay are touted as front runners. Observers are quite certain that a nuetral site will win out though, as both sites, although obvious, are problematic.

Please know that the release of information concerning the A Class catamaran as the sail off class is FALSE, and NOT to be given credibility.

That's all I have for now.
----------------------------------
You're ,of course, right Paul-except for one small detail. As I understand it its 60' Moths....

[Guillermo]

Not April the 1st:

SPANISH CLUB WILL BE AMERICA'S CUP CHALLENGER
New York, NY (AP) - A New York appeals court has declared that a Spanish yacht club is the challenger of record for the next America's Cup, a decision that removes a California club from that position.

The state Supreme Court's Appellate Division ruled 3-2 Tuesday that Club Nautico Espanol de Vela should be the challenger of record, which gives it the right to negotiate terms of the next competition with the current Cup holder, Alinghi of Switzerland. This decision reverses a lower-court ruling that made the Golden Gate Yacht Club (GGYC) of San Francisco the challenger.

The appeals court also gave CNEV 10 months to prepare for the race, starting when it receives a copy of the appellate ruling. --
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gqt1I0a0b1y0uXjLhYgAGt-EjTNAD927K0VO0
Court decision:
http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2008/2008_06433.htm

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

yessssssssssssssssssssssssss;)

[RHough]

Not April the 1st:

SPANISH CLUB WILL BE AMERICA'S CUP CHALLENGER
New York, NY (AP) - A New York appeals court has declared that a Spanish yacht club is the challenger of record for the next America's Cup, a decision that removes a California club from that position.


Only one or two small problems: One, does CNEV still exist? (Their 'annual regatta' is not on the Spanish Federation schedule); Two, does CNEV have a sailing team? DE has moved to another club so CNEV has no boat or team to sail it.

Other than that ... it was a good ruling. :)

[Doug Lord]

What a shame! We came so close to finally having high speed hi-tech boats race for the Cup -now its back to the past -too bad....

[Guillermo]

RHough:

What CNEV means...?
Answer: Challenger Never Ever Valid :D

Cheers.

[Guillermo]

Well, BMW-Oracle has come up with something really radical!

Turning 90 feet into 100 feet: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/08/0909

Cheers.

[sharpii2]

Well, BMW-Oracle has come up with something really radical!

Turning 90 feet into 100 feet: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/08/0909

Cheers.

Thanks for the heads up, Guillermo.

A multihull race would certainly make the race for the old mug more interesting.

Maybe enough to get me to drop the bad things I have said about it.

I once considered posting a set of proposed rules:

1.) that the boats can only be crewed by their owners. (10% stake holders minimum)
2.) that they can only be constructed of the following materials: 100 euro bills, gold, less than 10% steel, and less than 10% carbon fiber.
3.) the boats can be as large and expensive as the owners wish to make them providing they comply with rules 1.) and 2.).
4.) All crew must wear at least one tenth their worth in gold during the race.
5.) all pre race litigation concerning the race must be decided by pistol duels fought by top stake holders of each syndicate involved in such litigation (I thought of specifying jousting, but worried about the safety of the horses)

(The Euro bills are bio degradable, the carbon fiber can be burned, the steel could rust away, and the gold can be salvaged by by the lucky locals, after the unfortunate sinkings.)

At least now there is a tacit admission that multihulls are the fastest boats and have finally gotten the respect they have long deserved.

Almost enough to change my attitude.

But not quite.

[Paul Scott]

Well, it turns out that Lorrie and I saw Stradivarius on 9-2-08, while sailing Amati up to the San Juan Islands and beyond for vacation. She sailed 20 feet from us. Doing what, 8-12 K (?) in 6K on a reach. I've never been 'hunted' by an AC tri. It was unsettling. Her speed is not apparent, until she goes right past you, or you notice that her support motor boats have their throttles pegged. While she is big, she really looks like a big ORMA 60' tri, IMHO, which looks to me like they did a bigger version of state of the art. We watched her sail around for an hour, and the close encounter really got my inner little boy going. The closing speeds are going to be hard to judge, and FAST. The main is SQUARE. The sail material is mysterious.

We have 1 hour of video. We're not quite sure how to get it on the web, so advice is appreciated, if anyone is interested. She flew two hulls. The crew looked nervous, but very very cool.

Paul

[brian eiland]

We have 1 hour of video. We're not quite sure how to get it on the web, so advice is appreciated, if anyone is interested. She flew two hulls. The crew looked nervous, but very very cool.
Paul
Maybe post it on 'YouTube' and make a reference to that posting here?

[RHough]

Well, it turns out that Lorrie and I saw Stradivarius on 9-2-08, while sailing Amati up to the San Juan Islands and beyond for vacation. She sailed 20 feet from us. Doing what, 8-12 K (?) in 6K on a reach. I've never been 'hunted' by an AC tri. It was unsettling. Her speed is not apparent, until she goes right past you, or you notice that her support motor boats have their throttles pegged. While she is big, she really looks like a big ORMA 60' tri, IMHO, which looks to me like they did a bigger version of state of the art. We watched her sail around for an hour, and the close encounter really got my inner little boy going. The closing speeds are going to be hard to judge, and FAST. The main is SQUARE. The sail material is mysterious.

We have 1 hour of video. We're not quite sure how to get it on the web, so advice is appreciated, if anyone is interested. She flew two hulls. The crew looked nervous, but very very cool.

Paul

The day I was out we were WOT at 21 knots trying to intersect her and could not keep her from gaining bearing ... in 6-8 true. I have no reason to think that the claim of 26 knots in 8-9 true are inflated. 3x wind speed in flat water is deceptively fast.

While she looks like a ORMA 60 on steriods, she has a more conservative length/beam ratio and is *much* lighter than a G2 generation ORMA 60. On the order of 5 tons plus rig & sails.

Were you close enough to hear the noises she makes as sheets are trimmed and eased? Its great bloody carbon sound box! ;)

[Paul Scott]

You can hear her a mile (literally) away. But when we were close there was no noise at all. None. We waved. They didn't wave back. But then, my wife had the video camera goiing, and a couple of their support boats had made a couple of moves on us (but didn't hail), and then they decided to sail right past us. And all the folks on the support boats at least were waving back then. Maybe they came by because our boat's name 'Amati' is the name of the family that taught Stradivarius how to build things. Amati, IMHO, made better cellos and violas. Not many better violins. But I'm a cellist. A guy can dream...

Paul

[ironmatar]

Actually i know of a group that does full on jousting,,in full suits of 12 guage stainless plate handmade, TBH the armor and lance are easy, the hard part is training a horse to run the fence and learning how to properly ride with him/it/her, 3 years or more just learning how. :]
i recently say almost a full page pic of the bmw tri in seattle's paper at speed it doesn't even appear to even be IN the water really and i would think that would be hard to control with that amount of sail area beauty of a boat though. one thing i really don't get from all the posts on the race itself , is why don't all these guys just shut up and hold the races and if there is some question of challenger why isen't that being decided with a race off instead of court decisions, iv read a fair number of posts in the thread and it dosen't make a lick of sense to me why things arn't being decided by races like they should be?
ironmatar

[Paul Scott]

Lorrie and I have our 1 hour of the Stradivarius (BMWO) on youtube in 6 segments. Get on youtube and search "bmw oracle castleswreath" and they will show up. The youtube screen is really small, so if you'd like better and bigger, give me an email address, we can email you the original video. On a big screen (like a tv) it looks pretty good and you can see a lot of details, like how much mast movement (canting) there is. They look like they are steering her with the sails. And using cant for flow control. One shot
at less than 20 feet ('close encounters'). Hope you guys enjoy it.

Oh, I should mention the video was done from our sailboat and we were sailing, not motoring, so my wife wants everyone to know that as well as taking the images (fortunately for any viewer it was not me: I was steering and trying to sound knowledgeable- there is a REASON the audio is muted) she had to tend the jib, move from side to side etc.

Paul

[Paul Scott]

Well, now that we've actually tried to email someone the video, we've discovered that it's too large for our email service...

:confused:

even when we chop it up into finite pieces.

Paul

[lazeyjack]

Well, now that we've actually tried to email someone the video, we've discovered that it's too large for our email service...

:confused:

even when we chop it up into finite pieces.

Paul
Try changing to gmail

[Paul Scott]

Lazeyjack- thanks, will try when done with flu. :(