Jones Act, Waivers and Cabotage

[kach22i]

Tell me all I will ever need to know.:)

NOTE:
I started a thread which lead to this topic - my research can be found here:

http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/index.php?showtopic=648&st=15

..............and I thought this was cabotage.:D
http://home.comcast.net/~holachapulin/Images/cabbage.jpg

[safewalrus]

Difference in pronouc-eation I believe!?!

[Thunderhead19]

Okay! If your boat was built outside the USA and you want to take passengers you're pretty much "pooched". Waivers technically exist, but anyone can quash them simply by putting their objection in writing while your application is being processed. There is only one legal way to use your craft to earn profit, and that is as a rental vehicle. Then you're free and clear.

I find it interesting that all non-comercial users, particularly government agencies are totally exempt. On top of that there are no such rules about aircraft, trucks, and trains.

As for the contention that the cabbotage laws are necessary, I have only one thing to say. If the US government wants to shelter and prevent it's various industries from NEEDING to be competetive internationally, and keep it's citizens from freely buying products wherever they want, let them. Let them bear the cosequence of allowing weak, poorly run companies to continue to be major players in the US marketplace at the taxpayers expense.

[maddyfish]

Sounds like a good idea to me, and I would add, we should require any ship that imports good to the U.S. be made here as well. Since nearly everybody in the world does buisness here, what are they going to do, say no?
Next email will be to my U.S. representative, and Senators.

[longliner45]

the reason of the law was to keep our boatyards up to par in case of war,to keep our ship yard viable so we could build pt boats in ww2 and mike boats for vietnam .which led to the possibilty of building larger boats in smaller yards

[safewalrus]

Whatever the reason the system works - actually you pinched the idea from us Brits when we was famious and had big 'colin-ies' and traded tea with some of the smaller ones! But tis a bloody good idea, trouble is our lot ain't got the sense to reintroduce it! Make sure your people KEEP it (no matter what the excuse!)

[Thunderhead19]

Sounds like a good idea to me, and I would add, we should require any ship that imports good to the U.S. be made here as well. Since nearly everybody in the world does buisness here, what are they going to do, say no?
Next email will be to my U.S. representative, and Senators.

Now you're thinking! Sure, it will escalate the cost of imported goods and drive inflation through the roof, but i'm sure that it would serve someone's intrests. After all, it's not like theres a lot of working-poor people in america.

The american cruise ship industry is forced to spend millions and millions of dollars in mexico and canada (good for me anyway) when it could be going to the US, because of the cabotage laws. Realistically, if American shipyards were as organized and efficient as those in france, scandinavia, japan, holand etc... there would be no need for the jones act and other cabotage laws because the industry would be capable of supporting it's self against all comers.

Why can't it?
Because it doesn't have to.

That should make you angry!

The American shipbuilding industry should be building cruise ships, supertankers, and transport ships. It should be raking in contracts from all over the world! It isn't. Because it isn't competetive!, because it doesn't have to be!, and because it's just easier not to be.

Great Americans like Henry Kaiser pioneered the kind of shipbuilding techniques that are making other nations great shipbuilding powers! Today american shipyards are all cuddled up in their comfy isolationist blanket, content to wallow in what amounts to a legislated entitlement, instead of striving to be pioneers, and leaders again (which they so easily could do). But something would have to force them to spend some money and effort on that.

Maybe if they faced extinction as a consequence, they would do it.

Not every industry in america today has been forced to get tough or die. Farming, ranching, lumber milling, to name a few, are carefully protected. But because these industries have been allowed to atrophe by not forcing them to compete, look at where they are now. America can no longer meet all it's food consumption needs, america can no longer produce it's own most popular household goods (television sets are no longer made domestically for example). If Barbie dolls were made in america, they'd be sixty dollars apiece!

When the last of america's wealth moves offshore, and american industry gets far enough behind, it's just going to be mayhem. Nobody wants that.

C'mon Maddyfish, we gotta get people off their duffs! Make them remember the thunder of machines, and the blood, sweat and tears of american men and women that built those shipyards and factories in the first place. The raw fortitude and determination that made the USA an industrial power, the envy of all others. Where has it all gone??

Well, maybe it's Canada's turn then.

[BillyDoc]

Thunderhead, nice lecture . . . and I agree with it.

The problem is, that our "leaders" have looked around at little problems like "peak oil" and "global warming" and "currency hegemony" and the fact that we haven't had a year when we didn't have a trade deficit (and we've hit new records for the last four or five) in forever, and the fact that we are in debt up to our ears to the rest of the world . . . and they came to a very sensible conclusion.

Just like individuals and corporations go bankrupt to escape from their creditors, our leaders seem to have decided that looting the place and selling off all the assets, then dumping whats left and moving on is the only solution that makes sense.

I studied econ in college (amongst other things) and I can't argue with the conclusion. It's the getting sold down the proverbial river that pisses me off.

Bill

[safewalrus]

Just remember Bill your not the only country in the world that's being ripped of by it's leaders - that unfortunately happens to us all, no matter faith, religion, colour or creed!

It's just that as America has more it looks worse is all! Trouble is there ain't no answer cos when you kick arse the new ones are just as bad! Orwell "Animal Farm" indicates what I mean!!

[BillyDoc]

That is very true, Walrus,

As the Irish statesman, Edmund Burke, said many years ago: "The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

In the States we seem to have more than our fair share of these "good men." All very busy doing nothing . . . except bragging about how "moral" they all are. You are lucky enough to live where not all the news media are propaganda outlets for the government, although some certainly are. So you don't have to watch your meek and missinformed contrymen act so utterly stupidly, all the damn time! And, of course, be proud of their ignorance as well.

Although I recently found out that in Austrailia campaign contributions OVER $1000 do NOT have to be reported, but those UNDER that amount DO. Now, given the penchant all politicians have for their bribery, that one is stupid beyond my wildest dreams! I would love to know how they sold that one.

Bill

[Thunderhead19]

Is this the beginning of the end?
The mighty Greek and Egyptian empires fell this way. Rome fell this way, the British Empire patheticaly faded away this way.
Maybe it's time to install a military dictator in Washington and call it a day. (You could lobby for foreign aid from China)

[longliner45]

apparantly the cabbag thing works.......dont know anyone who wants to go against bubbas navy!

[Corpus Skipper]

The American shipbuilding industry should be building cruise ships, supertankers, and transport ships. It should be raking in contracts from all over the world! It isn't. Because it isn't competetive!, because it doesn't have to be!, and because it's just easier not to be.
You won't find any American shipyard workers willing to work for 2 bucks a day and a bowl of rice like they do in China, Korea, etc...:rolleyes: Funny thing, American skilled labor insists on being paid a decent wage, thereby excluding us from global "competition", as we can't touch the bottom line of the Asian yards. No amount of streamlining or efficiency programs or whatever can make up for a labor cost that is only 10% or less what American workers earn. So in practice, the cabbotage laws keep what's left of our shipbuilding industry in business, otherwise they'd go by the way of most of our other manufacturing industry, to China:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Corpus Skipper]

Today american shipyards are all cuddled up in their comfy isolationist blanket, content to wallow in what amounts to a legislated entitlement, instead of striving to be pioneers, and leaders again (which they so easily could do).
Ever seen an Aegis cruiser or destroyer? In a word, AWESOME. OK, I'll put my soap box away now. Hmmm, I wonder if it will hold an outboard.......:D

[safewalrus]

hey what's this about the British Empire fading away, hell NO! We bloody well gave it away! and still are (even the bloody Cornish want independance! and the sooner we get's it and away from those muppets the better!) Mebban Kernow!

[maddyfish]

Again, I believe we should require all ships that make port here, for buisness purposes, to be built here. That would eliminate offshore competition. Do you think China, or anybody else of consequence would say no, just to protect their shipping industry?


As far as farming goes my family is PAID by the U.S. government NOT to produce food. I suppose to keep the price up.

As far as the working poor go, screw them, if you are poor in this country at this time, it is because you are lazy, or exceedingly stupid.

[BillyDoc]

As far as the working poor go, screw them, if you are poor in this country at this time, it is because you are lazy, or exceedingly stupid.

Thanks for the info, Maddy, an informed and Christian attitude if ever I've heard one! This stupidity you mention is clearly everywhere. For example, whenever Walmart advertizes jobs thousands and thousands of applicants show up for just a few openings. By far most of them are clearly too stupid to actually GET these good jobs, hell, simple math should tell them that. And these are GOOD jobs, too. Wonderful pay, great benefits, great working conditions . . . MUCH better than McDonalds, or even Burger King. Not to mention that just because a guy knows how to build a boat or run a complex CNC milling machine, or even an injection molding machine, doesn't necessarily mean he can flip a burger! And of course, as you point out, obviously he is too stupid to flip burgers because more often than not they won't let him!

Let the stupid, lazy, ignorant masses of job applicants who can't actually get jobs because of all the other stupid, lazy, ignorant masses of really desperate job applicants trying to feed their ugly, stupid, flea-infested, snot-nosed brats. . . eat cake.

Besides, it isn't my problem --- I've got a job.

Bill

[safewalrus]

MaddyFish you are a fine upstanding example of your country's finest! If ever a foreign devil wishes to insult the US of A we'll just point him at you and he'll really have something to whinge about!:rolleyes:

Most people would consider that I am insulting you, you won't your too stupid! But most of the others will - luckily most will realise that it's you and the likes of you I'm insulting, not the whole damn United States who generally are fairly decent types of guys, but I guess everybody needs to have a 'black sheep' to make the others look good! I'll give you your due, you do that with perfection:p

[kach22i]

As far as the working poor go, screw them, if you are poor in this country at this time, it is because you are lazy, or exceedingly stupid.
You sound like an arse, one with little life experence and little knowledge of the world and this country. The middle class is under attack and in danger. Did you ever bother to read about the new credit card reforms Congress passed? They have a bullseye on you and me buddy - don't ever forget it. Bankruptcy laws custom designed to make us all slaves of debt and the credit card companies laugh. They used to put people in jail for loan sharking - and the mob used to charge far less than the current CC companies do.

How about the national debt? Are we all lazy, or exceedingly stupid to allow it to happen? Do you want to even guess what your share is? More than you make in a year, probably more than you can take home in five years I bet.

The chart below is from 2001. Charts like this will be updated later this year, just take a wild guess which way the chart is going. Debt is a real burden on the working poor - oops, I meant middle class.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/creditcardsmarts/P74808.asp
http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/images/debt.gif

The old; like fools, go out and get themselves sick.......no national healthcare........guess what happens? Charge it!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.whatisleft.org/
http://www.whatisleft.org/photos/uncategorized/credit_card_debt_3.jpg

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_13-2005_02_19.shtml
http://volokh.com/files/todd-Credit_Cards_2.jpg

maddyfish, why are you so ignorant? Get an education, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

If this sounds like an attack on maddyfish, its not - it's tough love.

If this sounds political, sorry about that. When someone's hand in my pockets I tend to get distracted, if even for a moment.

End of rant.............waited over a year to get paid the last $5,000 from a client - of course that's all my own lazy fault - got the check today, all of it is going to the tax man.

[longliner45]

funny thing; I was a comercial fisherman my father was a farmer ,,,,,,cattle, one day I woke up and there was no fish!so I called my dad .I said dad ( no fish, coming home to work the cows,)dad said ( cost more to feed cows ,than to sell them, but come home anyway .You can get a job at bubbas machine shop. so I worked for bubba 10 years , guess what ? Bubba learned to speak Chinese.he wont talk to me no more. So I had to take a job at a power co, .Its a good job .I love it , we only kill 9 men every month working on power lines/ this may be a stupid question ...am I a dumb ass or what?

[safewalrus]

At least by the fish's reakoning your not lazy, unless of course your poor that is, and then even if you work 18 hours a day your still lazy!:(

Interesting comment on credit cards and how the old use them to pay their medical bills, damn inconsiderate that getting sick when your old?:mad:

Crazy but I was under the immpression that it was fairly easy to get sick when your old, especially the guys who've done something for their country - you know a bit of bobing and weaving dodging bullets and the likes 'cos the polticians have f***ed up, again, and your country needs you to pull 'emm out of the poo! :rolleyes: But there again those guys must be lazy too! :rolleyes: Sh-e-e-e-t guys all those years we been getting it wrong!:o

"I don't suffer from insanity, I'm loving every minute of it!

[Thunderhead19]

(heh heh..time to stir the pot some more.)

Your point about east-asian shipyard workers being paid a meagre wage would be a valid arguement if the highly unionized German shipyards weren't kicking your asses too.

[kach22i]

(heh heh..time to stir the pot some more.)

Your point about east-asian shipyard workers being paid a meagre wage would be a valid arguement if the highly unionized German shipyards weren't kicking your asses too.
Aren't they semi-nationalized like the whole Airbus/Boeing comparision?

http://www.themilitant.com/1996/6010/6010_6.html
20,000 In Germany Protest Job Cuts

BY CARL-ERIK ISACCSSON AND CATHARINA TIRSÉN

STOCKHOLM - Twenty thousand workers demonstrated February 22 in the German port of Bremerhaven against the threatened closure of shipyards by Bremer Vulkan, the country's biggest shipbuilder. Workers also occupied the company's shipyards both in Bremen and in the eastern city of Stralsund. ..................... Unit labor costs in Germany have risen 22 percent since 1990, compared to a 10 percent drop in the United States in the same period, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development. This is one indication of how far the German capitalists lag behind their U.S. business rivals in cutting workers' wages and social benefits.

[BillyDoc]

Good point, Thunderhead,

And the reason they can do that is the tools they use. Ten very skilled East Asians using files to make parts still can't come close to the productive capability of one semi-skilled German using a CNC mill, computer controlled water-jet cutter, and a robot welder. In the U.S., however, our masters have chosen to not upgrade machines (capitol investment) and keep the work here, but to upgrade the machines in their plants in East Asia instead --- and reap the short-term profit.

Of course, our "stupid" neighbor, the man who ran the now-antiquated CNC machine he used to use to multiply his productive capability beyond all others at any wage level, now has to "re-train" in some "anchored" job that can't be moved, like delivering pizzas. Or flipping burgers.

China is currently making a huge investment in Japanese machine tools (the best in the world, in my opinion). When they get them, they will have at their disposal: 1, A highly educated and motivated, massive work force. 2, The capitol investment in a massive inventory of modern machine tools. 3, A massive technological knowledge base, because they are doing all the modern high-tech manufacturing for the world now, even though our own citizens may own the plants. And 4, the means to ship their products worldwide.

Given the fact that our own governments are allowing this to happen, and even promoting it through mechanisms like NAFTA and CAFTA, and the further fact that many monied people living here will make massive short-term profits on this trend, it doesn't seem likely to stop any time soon.

BUT, as soon as China gets everything into place --- will ANYONE be able to compete with them?

Our wealthy capitolists will have their pile gathered around themselves and will probably invest quite a bit of it in their own personal fortresses. They will also buy laws to keep the rest of us firmly under their control.

The rest of us, all those "stupid" people Maddy mentioned, will keep having kids, will keep praying instead of doing, and will be worked to death, one way or another.

Welcome to our brave new world.

Bill

[kach22i]

Good point, Thunderhead,

And the reason they can do that is the tools they use.
I think this falls into place with the article I posted. The Germans were closing old East German faclities with the cheap labor and the poor tooling, but keeping open more modern West Germany faclities.

[Thunderhead19]

I've often thought that one domestic shipyard, if it really got it's act together could absolutely KICK the CRAP out of every one else out there. I like CEOs like Lee Iacocca because he's an engineer, and he knows what it takes to run a manufacturing comany. I really think some of those Harvard suits who studied Law and got an MBA are more like pirates. They only know how to improve the bottom line by cutting costs.

[BillyDoc]

Absolutely right on, Thunderhead,

They ARE pirates, interested only in their bottom line and their "golden parachute." And everyone else be damned. They seem to forget that it is their society and the people who went before them who built the foundation they are plundering, and that they are not building anything.

And you would like the Chinese leadership. Mostly scientists and engineers. Unlike the mostly ignorant, and in one case at least, drug-soaked fascist frat boy, we have as "leaders" here in the U.S.

It is exactly because our leaders couldn't screw in a light bulb without technical assistance that they don't understand the true foundation of wealth --- which is the people who produce it with the tools they use to produce it. The rest is just paper.

Bill

[safewalrus]

Of course we Brits (are there any left, those with sense have followed Bergalia (? meaning?) have solved that problem - we don't make anything anymore! :rolleyes: We still have a 'viable economy' :rolleyes: just don't make anything! We have such useful things as Security, Quality and Safety;:eek: but nobody actually makes anything! Conversely the powers still make a lot of money on the backs of the lazy nerdowell's theres something in this but I ain't quite got it yet! We DO have lots of service industries where cheap foreigners clean up and, i would say take our jobs but as nobody either understands or wants these jobs that's OK:rolleyes:

As you just said Bill "it's all paper" but what paper! Personnally I ain't done anything useful for years, Ok I've watch a few people change things but as to actually doing anything useful - no! More use pushing paper, pays better to! I can do this (one of maddyfishes disciples? - f***ing lazy? or just well placed?):p

[BillyDoc]

There's an old Chinese curse that goes like this: "May you live in interesting times."

Looks to me like it's going to be very interesting indeed when the only country in the entire world that can actually manufacture anything competitively is in Asia. They will, of course, be very kind to us about it all --- just like we were to them. Our fine leadership brings to mind two old Navy descriptors: "Circle jerk" and "Cluster F**k." Yet, try and get anyone to do anything about it. Will they join in a demonstration? No! "What would the neighbors think!" Will they join a strike? Hell no, the union leaders mostly work for the corporations anyway, so there won't be any strike to join. Will they sign a petition? Maybe, but who cares?

After all, that nice comfortable sand is so nice and pleasing for the head.

Very interesting times.

Bill

[Thunderhead19]

And you would like the Chinese leadership. Mostly scientists and engineers. Unlike the mostly ignorant, and in one case at least, drug-soaked fascist frat boy, we have as "leaders" here in the U.S.

It is exactly because our leaders couldn't screw in a light bulb without technical assistance that they don't understand the true foundation of wealth ---
Bill

Wait, wait, wait, wait.....Jimmy Carter wasn't a lawyer! He was (wait for it) an ....ENGINEER. On paper he looks like a hard-working, uninteresting bureaucrat, who people quickly forgot. One term.....Oh, and one of those Nobel Peace Prize thingees.

Now, as I understand it, the US President doesn't actually author legislation, or even make policy. From what I've been told, he's just has the last word on what goes and what doesn't. Am I wrong here? Someone educate me (I learned most of my US history from Bugs Bunny).

Let's get back to this cabbotage thing. One of the most defensible aspects of the existing cabbotage laws is the juristiction of US labour laws, occupational health and safety regs, etc... being manditory to all ships earning profit between US ports. Also there is the issue of construction standards of foreign vessels. Fair enough, but they bundled a bunch of other craapp along with it! Many countries like Canada, Norway, Germany, France, the UK, Australia, blah blah blah, have equivalent or better standards for construction and have some pretty decent labour laws to boot. There should be some kind of teaty for that. Do you guys realize that cruise ships travelling from Hawaii to San Diego have to stop in Mexico along the way because the US can't make a cruise ship worth a damn?

Let's say for example that Maddyfish gets his way and that no kind of sea-bourne trade can happen with the US without a US built ship. First of all, aircraft carry a lot of consumer goods these days, and there are no such laws governing air-transport, but that's another matter. The price of all imported goods goes up 30% or so.

This is then good for domestic manufacturers because their prices are suddenly more competetive. Well they would be, except that importers in Canada and Mexico can bring goods in without those laws, and ship them across the border just as cheaply. Then the duties paid are paid to Canada and Mexico, not the US, and cross the border.

The Canadians and the Mexicans then also collect fees associated with using their ports and US ports are hurt even more. So then Shipyard and port workers lose their jobs and because they are suddenly "lazy and stupid" have to stand in line with the other thousand people waiting for a job at WAL-MART, so they can afford to buy inexpensive (but now slightly more expensive) goods to meet their basic (but now more pressing) needs for food clothing shelter and hygene.

Then the US decides that they have to tear up the NAFTA agreement (even though they've been ignoring it for years already). Then they impose tarrifs against Canadian and Mexican products to shore up the whole situation. But now things get really expensive for Unemployed Lloyd from the dockyard. But now some american firms have to hire a few more people to meet the rising demand for domestic products.

But the labour pool is huge and the jobs are still few, and sales aren't good because everyone is poor and goods are now expensive. Minimum wage is now the order of the day, and unless intrest rates start dropping, DE-flation starts to set in (because people won't be able to afford goods unless they can borrow the money or the price comes down.)

Why is DE-flation bad? Heck! the purchasing power of a dollar is then going up! Problem is that if you have to sell your goods for less than what is costs to make them, you go out of business and everyone who works for you is then unemployed. So let's say intrest rates go down (more than now).

In that case, money starts to become "asswipe" and the US then has a currency chrisis, like they had in Germany before the Nazis took over. The US Dollar then plummets on the international exchange and trading is halted. Then the US goes to the IMF for a bail-out. But the IMF doesn't have enought money because the US hasn't been meeting it's obligation to the IMF for decades. The Arabs get allarmed and demad payment on the Hundreds of Billions of dollars of US Debt that they are financing, and the US says ,"Uh, NO!"

Then everyone who holds any US debt panics and a worldwide economic chrisis gets set off. The US then tries to invade what by then would be a stable, self sufficient, debt-free Canada. But unpaid soldiers are in no mood to fight and start defecting in droves, and Mexico is threatening the southern border.

Mayhem ensues. A civil war lights up inside the US. Warlords arise, leading different factions against eachother as the government starts to collapse, and the world sits back watching the slaughter helplessly. Nato springs into action to try to secure the nuclear arsenal, but before it can happen someone steals a bomb.

Interesting times, yes, interesting times....

[BillyDoc]

You are such an optimist, Thunderhead!

You forgot about "peak oil" (which passed late last year) and the little issue of global warming (which will shift rainfall patterns at the very least, leading to crop failures). Two phenomena which are going to add a lot of "interest."

Oh, and Carter was indeed an engineer. A Nuclear engineer that served in our submarine service. Unfortunately, Carter recognized many of the problems we face today, like energy depletion, and tried to do something about it. At that time President's didn't initiate legislation directly, only tried to get congress to do it. Now, Bush tells congress what to do and makes his own rules as he goes along. So far congress is Okay with that. Probably because they don't want any anthrax in their mail or something selfish like that. Anyway, when Carter tried to push legislation that would have led to energy independence he threatened the oil interests who were paying the campaign costs of their congressional lackeys. Said lackeys were, in turn, instructed to block all such legislation, which they did. Then they made a deal with a certain Ayatollah who happened to be holding on to a bunch of U.S. Citizens so that they would not release those citizens until after our election. It worked, too. Carter was not re-elected, even though he was clearly one of our best president's ever. He is an honorable man --- which is just another way of saying that he didn't fit in Washington, at all! For a model of true success in the Washington scene, I give you George W. Bush! Torturer, Liar, War Criminal, Thief. Totally without a moral compass. The perfect politician and perfect Christian representative. The perfect man to spearhead the looting of the U.S. of A.

While there's still something here to loot.

Bill

[maddyfish]

It is easy to talk class warfare, or blame the rich,the government,or whomever else you want, but what it comes down to, is if you live in this country, and you want it, whatever it is, you can have it, if you work hard enough.
I am relatively unskilled, 32 years old, and retired. I live in a good neighborhood, with excellent schools, in an above average house. My wife works part time at a job she loves. My kids are well fed, and have college savings well under way. I have some disposable income, not alot, but some.
My finantial advisor says that I have income and savings to live at this level indefinately. If you want this, do what I did: buy nothing on credit, save 75% of your income, work 80 hours a week minimum. Invest well, listen to smart people, and with luck in 15 years you will retire.
I believe in America, and in it's workers, I believe that our governement should take any and all means to protect our people and our industries. I care nothing about other countries, or their people. Let their own governments worry about that. I care nothing about lazy, or stupid people, and do not expect them, or anybody else to worry about me.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, you are where you are because YOU choose to be.

As far as credit cards go, who cares about them, never had one, never will.

FLAME ON ( cause I've got all the time in the world to read them)

[BillyDoc]

And where would you be with BAD luck Maddy?

Could you have achieved your financial independence if you had been born to a poor family, and had little or no education, and been unable to find a job at all simply because there were none? Surely you recognize that the above describes exactly the plight of way too many people in the United States.

I suppose that you would say that I am an example of the American Dream myself, because I was born poor and managed to get an education up to and including a Ph.D. with no support from anyone . . . except you and a lot of others like you. I was in a hopeless situation that I could not break out of before the Vietnam era GI bill went into effect (on the first of June, 1966. I was IN SCHOOL 13 days later.) I use credit cards, but am very careful to pay them off every month. I even have successful investments. Everything I have is paid for. But Maddy, I was born with the intellectual equipment to pull this off . . . I did not "deserve" it at all, it was merely an accident.

I know too many people born in the same conditions that I was who have struggled all their lives, worked those long hours you mention, and put their faith in employers that turned them out and manipulated their pensions through "bankruptcy," leaving them with almost nothing. People who can't afford medicine they need and food as well. People who are being stripped of every asset through expenses they have no control over. You seem to think that this is because they are stupid. Maybe they aren't so bright. So what? It is a plain fact that HALF the people in this country have an I.Q. LESS than 100 . . . and an I.Q. less than 100 is not very bright at all. Do they deserve to be punished because of that particular accident of birth? Or for that matter, do you deserve any reward because of your accident of birth?

And I would like to point out that one of those common signs of intelligence is an ability to empathize with others. How do YOU fare on that measure Maddy?

Bill

[safewalrus]

Maddyfish be proud to American! Your the sort of guy that Sammy Bin Liner and his other cronys love!

Your pig ignorant, selfish, opinionated, stupid to the nth degree and generally fu**ing up the space in this earth that you occupy!:!:

It would appear that you are using up good water and air that some poor person desperately needs!

Maddyfish the Al Qada's of the world salute you, your certainly making their job easier!:rolleyes:

There's some poor bloody American soldier out in Iraq (I know YOU didn't ask him to go and YOU ARE the only person that matters! :?: ) who is dying or just about to die, becuse he believed the **** that his country needed him (we won't go into the politics of the man who sent him there - he's just like you a dumb *hit) and you know the terrible thing is this poor guy is doing it partially for you, you worthless piece of dirt, your not even worth the ground he walks on).

I have over my lifetime worked with some damn fine Americans (and some others, mostly normal straight guys just trying to get on in life and do the best they could for themselves and their families) and because of these people I was slowly, like many others in the world, coming to like and respect the American Nation for what it is, not what it thinks it is! I was starting to believe that the myth of the "pig ignorant red neck American *****" was just that, a myth! How wrong I was to believe this! You and You alone have managed to produce another enemy of America in a time when you need all the friends you can get!!!:mad: With your stupid pig ignorant atittude!:mad:

There is two reasons that this will not happen - I WILL remember all the good Americans I have met and worked with (in many varied circumstances) :!: including some on this forum and also (tho' God knows why) I realise that the only person you ultimately hurt is yourself - go have have a lonely, sad death mister (but please do the world and America a favour and do it soon)!

[maddyfish]

Billy doc,

I come from a poor family, and started with nearly nothing. That is what is great about America, any body can make it, if they are willing to work extremely hard. I know that infuriates people around the world, but too bad.

safe walrus,
You are a silly foul mouthed individual, no wonder that you haven't made it. With your attitude you never will.

[safewalrus]

Well who's a bitchy little boy then? If your classed as having 'made it' I'm Glad I haven't! And incidentally what is this 'made it' supposed to be?

Be very careful who your calling foul mouthed you might not like the answer conyo, ala zobzob!:D

[longliner45]

ft thomas ky is not indusrialised he dont see 14 ford plants close down, he dont see50000 gm workers idled, he dont see delfi closing down ,,,another100000workers ideled,,he is like a frog at the bottom of the well ,he knows all about the well ,but nothing outside of it,,,,,forgive him because he dont know what he dont know

[kach22i]

I think maddyfish is the curse, the wrath we must pay for dabbling in politics on this board.

Somehow I just don't see us getting in a pissing contest over mono-hulls verses catamarans.:cool:

[BillyDoc]

You make a good point Kach, and I think Maddyfish will simply never understand.

BUT, I would like to point out that no true sailor would actually put to sea in a cat! Anything that is stable upside down simply isn't sea-worthy.

(*duck, cover . . . put on nomex suit*)

:D

[Thunderhead19]

I don't think working hard is all that it takes in america. Being in the right place at the right time, being clever, hustling when the time is right, and knowing lots of good people are all vital to success. That last point is key. If the only people you know are out for themselves, the rest of the world be damned, then there's no hope. The next point I'd like to make is about how ignoring and not involving yourself the rest of the world is bad.....because the rest of the world has an impact on you. Everything from the availability of consumer goods, raw materials OIL etc...to emmigration, exports and employment. It's all connected weather you want it to be or not.I'm sure someone here is just funning with me though.....

[BillyDoc]

I'm sure someone here is just funning with me though.....

Not me Thunderhead!

I'm trying to stay on the good side of my non-American friends. It's the potential for immigration, you understand. This place is making me very nervous of late . . . way too many of my fellow citizens are like Maddy, an embarrasment to call "countrymen."

Bill

[safewalrus]

Actually gentlemen now that Maddy has come out of the closet as it were he's not so dangerous - looks rather stupid in fact! The Dangerous ones are the ones like him that nobody knows about! You can't keep an atittude or an afliction like that in the cupboard for long can you?

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=maddyfish]
As far as farming goes my family is PAID by the U.S. government NOT to produce food. I suppose to keep the price up.
QUOTE]

Sorry to join this debate late in the day (I was out testing the latest Australian secret weapon - the hover-sprout, designed to sneak onto Al Quada dinner plates unobserved, thereby leaving its target with flatulence, making propective terrorists among us both aurally and aromatically obvious).
But I digress.
To cap Maddyfish's tale (no pun intended) - an old farming friend of mine back in the UK, under Common Market regulations was not only paid NOT to grow wheat - but also paid to store surplus EEC wheat in the silos (built at European taxpayers expence) which replaced the the crop he was no longer allowed to grow. He was required to store the wheat (sprayed red to prevent its consumption) for four years when it was removed and burned, and replaced with 'new' stock - waiting to be destroyed; and so on, one suggests, ad-infinitum. (Starving millions - tough tit..) Thus he was paid twice - for doing bugger all - except drive his new pair of matching Bentleys... Ah bureacracy... humanity is thy name.

[safewalrus]

Jealous Bergalia? Not you surely?:p

[Thunderhead19]

heh heh heh...hover-sprout...heh heh heh...what are propective terrorists?

[Bergalia]

..what are propective terrorists?
Apparently, Thunder old chum, anyone who doesn't agree with George Bush :mad:

[kach22i]

Apparently, Thunder old chum, anyone who doesn't agree with George Bush :mad:
Well if you follow the approval ratings that would include 66% of Americans.:p

[safewalrus]

And that's just the ones who admit it! But like his poodle the Brit's very own 'Blur' somebody must have at one stage! Not surely the families of the soldiers who are sent to Iraq (Iran, whoops to early) to do 'His' bidding for no apparant need other than to make him look omnipotent (hang on which one am I talking about?) and die in the process! Still at least shrub has the guts to welcome home the bodies of the guys he's killed, his lapdog doesn't even do that! :mad:

[kach22i]

Still at least shrub has the guts to welcome home the bodies of the guys he's killed, his lapdog doesn't even do that! :mad:
When was this? They will not even allow pictures of the planes filled with coffins coming in the middle of the night and unloading.

[safewalrus]

apoligies Kach I was under the impression shrub had actually admitted and attended the home coming of some of the first poor sods to cop it! Wouldn't do it now of course, some of the families might tell him the awful truth!

[BillyDoc]

apoligies Kach I was under the impression shrub had actually admitted and attended the home coming of some of the first poor sods to cop it! Wouldn't do it now of course, some of the families might tell him the awful truth!

Actually, Walrus, His Highness couldn't care less about us rabble. We just saw a video of him being warned about the Katrina effects way before it hit, and what does our little Nero do? Goes off to play with his guitar and other similarly useful things for several days. I guess a fiddle would be too difficult for our little fascist bas***d.

A week or so ago when it came out that Cheney had shot a lawyer I joked to a friend that this would double his approval rating all the way up to 17%. As of yesterday, it was actually 18%. George is running along at 34% because of all the idiots who voted for him and are not honorable enough to admit they made a huge mistake. Or maybe they are just consistently idiots.

I really think our "leader" actually gets off on all the death he causes. Like when he was a kid blowing up frogs with fire crackers. It makes him feel powerful, and he needs that to get back at all his college classmates who universally referred to him as "the Jerk."

Bill

[kach22i]

As much as I enjoy venting about the fools and ignorant buffoons, we all promised not to get political.

However if someone want to explain to me why foreign ownership of ports is somehow ALWAYS a good thing, I'll be open minded.

Please refer to the thread already in progress at:

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10499

[BillyDoc]

My apologies, Kach. I have become so upset about the condition of my country that I have been looking for a place to immigrate. This worry carries over into places it shouldn't. I'll try to be better.

Bill

[safewalrus]

Trouble is Gentlemen, without getting to political about it, it don't really matter were ye are, we're all going downhill in a steamroller! It would appear that non of our erstwhile leaders are any better or any worse than the rest! Mind you they'm good at telling you how good THEY are and how BAD the rest are! Can't see much difference between the lot of em really! :(

[longliner45]

was ganna go to cornwall myself,,,,,,but Walruss is there!

[safewalrus]

Actually longliner I'm in London at the moment! c an't make a living in Cornwall, they're trying to close all the Naval Bases down! amongst other things! OK so it's across the border in England I know but it still affects! :D

[longliner45]

whats a matter man ,,,,,the corn dollar down ? or are you just lazy and shiftless,,,,,as stated in other threads?

[trouty]

At least I'm consistent.
Sure wish I had a $ (OK Pacifc Peso) for every US Fishing / Boating website I've been banned from for saying BEFORE and DURING the Iraq debacle - that we shouldn't be doing this, it's dumb and it's wrong! I admit I posted photo's of innocent dead Iraqi wimmin and kids - because the press refused to do so and referred to them ONLY as "colateral damage".:rolleyes:

What I've failed to understand, is how we justify a war of aggression, and do the ol flag waving ra ra rally round the troops - when WE are the ones in the wrong?

OK - The twin towers happend, but if you really THINK about it....well - the American Nation STOPPED being great - the day you lost your 'Peoples President' JFK. (Shot with a magic bullet!) :rolleyes:

America died the day it accepted the Warren commission report IMHO.

You know - the Nation died the day it stood back and allowed the rest of the Kennedy clan to be "eliminated"...:eek:

I know you all like to knock Teddy K for Chappaquiddick...and plenty else since - but what broke the man? The knowledge his country was LOST, and there was NOTHING a decent man (or family) could do about it?:confused:

Someone posted that the nations finnished when good men do nothing!

How many do you have to lose in your family, and watch all the good men do nothing, before you quit?

Averyone forgotten JFK Junior's "accident" over Martha's vineyard?:rolleyes:

Since then - it's been VERY much downhill..

You know, this was all predicted - by your very OWN "prohetess" Jean Dixon way back in the early 60's - she not only foresaw the Deaths of JFK and his brother, (And Junior) but said THIS about the future she saw for your country unfolding before your eyes today!

First tho - this priceless one!

Clinton at a DNC fundraiser in NYC 1996: "There is a government within the government, and I am not in charge."

An interesting quote from Slick Willie!

This is something written by American Prophetess . seer Jean Dixon back in the early 60's from memory.

"Jean Dixon, My life and Prophecies Bantam books 1969 page 179".

"I have 'seen' a "government within a government" develop within the United States within the last few years. Political families have always contributed significantly to the development of this nation. They each spawned their own political machine and often used it wisely. The Roosevelts, The Rockerfellers, The Lodges, The Kennedys, all had and have their influence on our countrys destiny.

However I 'see' this 'Government within a government' being controlled and financed by the well **oiled** (My emphasis) political machine of one of our leading political families. With their eyes one the Whitehouse I see them discredit any man who occupies it without their approval, no matter how good his political programs may be.

They will - thru political intimidation, propaganda, and illegal sixth column activities - make every effort to show the nation that only their man, the one who heads their 'machine' has the sole right to occupy the White House. Their campaign is going to cause great harm to our nation both here and abroad.

I 'see' this group succeed in taking over defacto control of the country. They will give rise to an upheaval in our social structure as never before seen.

The will bring about increased racial unrest and great discontent. Foreign subversive elements will - as they did in the 1960's infiltrate the unruly factions and cause renewed fighting on the nations campuses and in racial ghettos.

All of the evil in the masses will be swept toward an unknown frenzy by this 'machine'.

I 'see' a member of this 'machine' ascend to power in NY City, enforcing new laws and regulations which will affect many households of that great metropolis.

The social and religious chaos generated by this political machine throughout the united states will prepare the nation for the coming of the prophet of the antichrist. This political unit of the east will be the tool of the serpent in delivering the masses to him.

His domain will be the intellectual seduction of mankind. It means a mixture of political, philosophical and religious ideology that will throw the populations of the world into a deep crisis of faith in God.

As official forerunner, one of his first duties and responsibilities in readying the world for the advent of his "master" is to manipulate the the available propaganda machines. With teaching and propaganda, the prophet will cause people not merely to accept the Antichrist, but rather to desire him with positive enthusiasm, to create the conditions of his comming and to participate actively in organizing the frightful and terrifying despotism of his 'world empire'.


Rather a good forecast 45 years ago for what we see unfolding now IMHO.

The thing is - even when "good men" know what to look out for and what to do to stop it - they do nothing!.:rolleyes:

The descent into civil war in the USA within the next 2 - 5 years will not be because of anything anyone did - it will be because of what was NOT done!

Course ... likely as not I'll get banned again - but 'tis a badge of honor I wear with pride!;)

Cheers!

[trouty]

And while we are on the subject (now that I introduced it) this is what she had to say on Red China in the distant future and the Middle East abouts now!

"The biggest danger the world faces in the future is Red China. When peace negotiations have seemingly concluded in the first quarter of the 21st century, Red China will show her teeth.

In the year 2025, Red China will have reached an economic and political stability sufficient to forge ahead and become the great conqueror.

In that year Red China will march into Russia. Conquer a large part of the USSR's northern area and will not stop until it has marched into Finalnd, Norway, Sweden & Denmark, stopping at the German Border.

It will not invade Western Europe. Bye that time however Russia will also have expanded her direct sphere of influence. It will no longer be limited to the countries of eastern Europe but will now incluse Libya Ethiopia, Iran & much of Africa.

This war of conquest will lastt from 2020 - 2037".

Concerning the Middle East, this is what Jean Wrote - and how true it has been.

" Even tho the UN and the big powers will press for a solution to the Middle east problem between the Arabs and Israelis, I see nothing but continuing trouble in that part of the world.

Peace between the belligerents is still a long way off.. Their dissagreement will only cease to exist after the great earth quake that will hit Jerusalem.

Until that time however their will be no real solution for the Arab Israeli problem. Constant tension, hot diplomatic debates, border clashes and heavey fighting interrupted by occasional respites of forced ceasefires will characterise life in the middle east. I have projected my quest for information into the year 2000, and see Chinese and Mongol troops invading the middle east. I see devastating battles raging uncontrollably east of the Jordan River. It will be a war of East against West. It will be an almost futile fight against an overwhelming foe- but the Lord will place himself at the side of Israel and great losses will be suffered by the orientals.
Ater the tide of battle has shifted, Israel will become one of the greatest Miracles of all times, for the israelites will realise it was Gods intervention that brought about this ultimate victory, and they will finally accept JC as the son of God"

Whatta they say about a prophet never being welcome in his / her own land? :rolleyes:

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

God trouty I hate it when your right!

Just one thing, this Jew / Arab thing, the main problem is simply the Arabs are Jews and vice versa (why else would they hate each other so much - it's called family love, brothers tend to fight brothers! Unfortunately!)

[Thunderhead19]

It's all you Brits fault! When you guys were running the world things had some order and control. Then you divested your holdings and gave the Yanks a turn and.......... gaaawwwd.

Actually, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

[safewalrus]

:p :rolleyes: Actually 'thunder' neither have I but your probably right! But we had a lot more gunboats in those days, the job was easier and there was none of this Politically Correct rubbish either, we were allowed to say what we felt (now that's nasty dangerous subversive stuff, nearly as dangerous as daring to have an opinion!):cool:

[trouty]

Just one thing, this Jew / Arab thing, the main problem is simply the Arabs are Jews and vice versa (why else would they hate each other so much - it's called family love, brothers tend to fight brothers! Unfortunately!)

Was it not Rebecca's two sons Esau and Jacob (sons of Joseph) of whom God declared "the older shall serve the younger", as the scripture says, "I loved Jacob but hated Esau"

When did God decide that the older should serve the younger and convey this to their mother Rebecca? (in contravention of the usual Jewish custom)?

Yes indeed - before they were born, such that Gods choice were NOT based on anything either had done or not done, but purely on Gods choice!

To this day - the descendents of these two brothers, still fight and kill each other despite their obvious direct blood ties!

Perhaps it was destined to always be this way! :confused:

Therefore - it seems, to me at least, as tho there MAY well NOT be a lot of choice other than to invoke the ol maxim... 'Nuke em all, and let God sort em out!'. ;)

Works for me! :)

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Sounds good to me too!:cool: After all it could be said He started it, let Him finish it! :idea: :rolleyes: