SteamshipDream in Borneo

[Wellydeckhand]

Hai, I am presently trying to design best suited steamship for rivers in Borneo. Bad weather and shallow bend and cheap coal have made me a believer of steamships.........

My question would be:
1. Is there an Improved drive system for ye old coal boiler steamship?
2. Which steamship design would suit the moonson season of Borneo?
3. Is this field a stagnant sector or is there a special forum in which I can meet up with crazy people who know their steam........:D
4. Of course is there anybody who can make a professional power plant for my future river Queen?

We are not only looking intensively to make transport affordable to the local native, but also paving toward ensuring river doctors supported by the government would trust steamships to provide transport option and working platform to every dayak city and remote villages.

I hope ideas contributed would be a smile on the face of Borneo future children.

Thanks guys.....

WellyDeckhand

[safewalrus]

Welly you'll find 'steamboat' sites throughout the civilised world, just try your favourite search engine!
I would have thought wood burner's would be better in Borneo, or is there on wood left due to bad logging?
Unless times have dramatically changed I didn't realise Indonesian Government was welcome in the dyak longhouses! :D

[BillyDoc]

Depending on how fancy you want to get . . . here's a thought.

Instead of steam, use electricity. Start with a Stirling engine/generator like this one, http://www.stmpower.com/ and couple it to electric drive motors. I believe electric drive is commonly used for ferries and the basis for diesel electric locomotives is a diesel generator and electric drive. You could use anything for fuel that will burn. Coal, wood, straw, cornstalks, liquid fuels . . . whatever. Electricity is much easier to control, you can place your engine in any convenient location, no transmission is necessary, and I believe a 55 KW electric drive would have performance similar to a 165 KW diesel with mechanical transmission drive. With electric drive you can easily make your props rotate on a vertical axis, so you have excellent control for tight spots. You can also add a few batteries for those moments when you need a burst of power (a hybrid approach), or to charge with solar panels for a little "free" transportation.

The STM power unit referenced above puts out 55 KW (aprox. 74 HP), weighs about two tons and costs (I think) about 65,000 USD. I haven't searched it out, but there may well be someone making Stirling engines closer to home for you.

Bill

[Wellydeckhand]

Welly you'll find 'steamboat' sites throughout the civilised world, just try your favourite search engine!
I would have thought wood burner's would be better in Borneo, or is there on wood left due to bad logging?
Unless times have dramatically changed I didn't realise Indonesian Government was welcome in the dyak longhouses! :D

I try the search engine ....but......! No new stuff can be found...... cause ferry steamer is really confine to certain area for usage depend on local authority..............

The Steamer had hard time fighting with new efficient and enviro friendly options.

In Borneo....... we are talking about the native Dayak.... They are not kinda smart businessman.....They dont hav the ability to churn up more cash if fuel hike up or the authority take away the subsidies which i think they did.

The coal here is dirt cheap..........As a local resident I could buy 4 ha of coal infested land and mine it for my own usage........ No sell or export permit of course.

It up to the local ship builder with their internet maniac buddy to do something about it .....I think......

I was thinking Of steamer that can carry 300 passanger.....matt floor sleeper....type.......can take cargo of approx.20 tons?

Cheap is my main goal but also cheap fare I will return to the dayak people....


WellyDeckHand

P.S. The authority are welcome to the village if they bring facilities and cash.... if not they will throw away the sardine n try new meat on the block.....he.....X100:p

[Wellydeckhand]

Depending on how fancy you want to get . . . here's a thought.

Instead of steam, use electricity. Start with a Stirling engine/generator like this one, http://www.stmpower.com/ and couple it to electric drive motors. I believe electric drive is commonly used for ferries and the basis for diesel electric locomotives is a diesel generator and electric drive. You could use anything for fuel that will burn. Coal, wood, straw, cornstalks, liquid fuels . . . whatever. Electricity is much easier to control, you can place your engine in any convenient location, no transmission is necessary, and I believe a 55 KW electric drive would have performance similar to a 165 KW diesel with mechanical transmission drive. With electric drive you can easily make your props rotate on a vertical axis, so you have excellent control for tight spots. You can also add a few batteries for those moments when you need a burst of power (a hybrid approach), or to charge with solar panels for a little "free" transportation.

The STM power unit referenced above puts out 55 KW (aprox. 74 HP), weighs about two tons and costs (I think) about 65,000 USD. I haven't searched it out, but there may well be someone making Stirling engines closer to home for you.

Bill


I have been searching but didnt understand wat the steamer gonna hav..... this put me in a better view of the river babe.

So this generator is driven by steam power and convert to engine power?

Do you have anymore info? A big mean machine for river transport and a small machine for medium floating river clinic.........

Thanks

WellyDeckHand:D :D :D

[BillyDoc]

No, you can skip the steam entirely. This generator runs on essentially ANY heat source. It is based on the Stirling engine, which is an external combustion engine (as opposed to the more common internal combustion engine). It uses hydrogen gas (or helium) as an internal working fluid, but this is sealed inside and never needs replacement. As I understand the particular model at the link has a built-on combuster to burn gases, but you could probably just build a coal fire and use the combuster as a flue and get the same result.

Google on "Stirling engine" for a LOT more information on this technology. Or try these to get started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

http://www.sesusa.org/

[safewalrus]

Yeah Welly that's what I was afraid of - the dyaks ain't changed much then!:cool: Bloody good trackers but strange appetites!:D

[Wellydeckhand]

Yeah Welly that's what I was afraid of - the dyaks ain't changed much then!:cool: Bloody good trackers but strange appetites!:D

I am quite a good tracker myself for finding good dayak ideas............. the good ideas which are keeping me alive......:eek: :eek: :eek: :(

So please contribute your weight to this thread if u think Dayak need exposure to civilization through the help of cheaper transport.

The Doctor steamship will be govt. sponsor.......:D :D :D

[safewalrus]

Actually mate I don't think it's such a good idea! When i was out there they were doing OK without outside influence. Outsiders would only ruin their fragile existence and make them very unhappy and susceptable to all sorts of terrible diesease!:(

Luckily the only thing they'll get from the Indonesian Government is food poisoning!:rolleyes:

[Wellydeckhand]

Actually mate I don't think it's such a good idea! When i was out there they were doing OK without outside influence. Outsiders would only ruin their fragile existence and make them very unhappy and susceptable to all sorts of terrible diesease!:(

Luckily the only thing they'll get from the Indonesian Government is food poisoning!:rolleyes:

It very hard for us as human to deciede what other people need........ But for the dayaks....... they need knowledge and health care...........

50% patient need medical attention from sickness include stroke, sugar level disorder and malnutrious.
50% patient need medical help from accident and wounds from animal attack.

It is improper to see them as animal isolated within protected compound 'Reservation Area' as pets......... and hope to take documentation as they fight with wild beast with their bear hand.

I would say giving them a little bit knowledge of the outside world and the freedom to choose as they think best for the future is more human.

Our believe that they are like children and their real parent put strict rules mean forcing them into extinction?Mmmm......... Maybe the rule bend a bit somewhere........ but they are far from extinction unlike animal without a brain.

Come over to Borneo and u will be surprise........

During all incident foreign or domestic Borneo is still herself calm and well groom by nature.

I am doing my part as a resident to this beatiful land where the people have a romantic history as the best trapper and head-hunter of Borneo...........and truthfully earn a livin by builting boat and thinking of new project like the steamship that count.

Phew...........:eek: :eek: :eek: cant believe i type all that **** man.....:D :D :D ...............................Mmmm........Gonna go find a Shrink now:D

[BillyDoc]

Go for it Welly, you sound like a damn good man to me!

Bill

[Wellydeckhand]

:D Go for it Welly, you sound like a damn good man to me!

Bill

Well I am single n u can try courtship with me but I doubt it will work:D :D :D ....... I appriciate your compliment but I rather u critic my ideas to make more solid..........:D:D :D ..........Sorry for being an A55.:eek:

[safewalrus]

Sounds more like "Charlie" to me Billy, if you get my drift! :D

[Wellydeckhand]

Sounds more like "Charlie" to me Billy, if you get my drift! :D

Trust me sex change is not an option........steamships boiler change a must.....

So walrus any whisker on steamships for a starter?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BillyDoc]

:D
I rather u critic my ideas to make more solid..........

We would like to do that, but you have to put out some more information. Did you check out the Stirling engines, or are you determined to go with steam (which has a bunch of problems of its own)?

What size boat are you thinking of? What draft? What conditions will it be operating under? What's the budget? What material (steel, aluminum, wood, concrete, etc.)

Something like the "African Queen" like in the movie? That was a real boat, by the way, its on display at Key Largo in Florida. Just stop and chop some wood to keep going. In your case, dig up some coal.

Bill

[Wellydeckhand]

Mmmm....... passanger 150-300, extra cargo 20 tons........... option of engine: Steamship because of my backyard is 4 Ha of free coal...or..... propane powered engine...... meaning higher operating cost, the price would still hurting the dayak.....:(......

The dayak doesnt mind the floor........... as long as there is a carpet......shave off weight on furniture and bed.........

If I may get someone to draw the spec for me and will buy off the person..... hope design a steamship is not expensive.......Have to kill my piggie again....:(:(:(.

I have someone ready to let me use their CNC multi head unit.....Mmmmm..... meaning the marine plate would kill me out right.............

Is wooden steamship any good?

I will try to reply after my vacation:):):).........in the jungle for the infamous BLOOD ORCHID...............hopefully will save me from becoming a walrus.....he.....he......he......:D:D:D

[Wellydeckhand]

I will post soon some of the current use mean of transport in Mahakam river...... for those crazy about river and Borneo.........:D

[safewalrus]

When are you going on vacation Welly? we need the peace!:rolleyes:

Now about you not wanting to be a Walrus, that's not the way I see it!! :cool: During the Trafalgar 200 celabrations Big party for kick the backsides of France and Spain, there was a sail training vessel from some outfit we'd kicked the **** out of some 40 years before! Can you guess who that country was Welly (we were ably helped by the Aussies and Kiwis and also the Malaysians had something to do with it -some silly person from the southern part of the island of Borneo thought he would have a go at Malaysia, forgot they had some good friends!)!!! :P Anyway Welly this training ship had a band, admittedly a very good band who's bass drummers, both of em, were dressed as Walrus's and a damn fine job they did too! Which goes to prove that ALL Indonesians want to be WALRUS's. I can understand this but that honour is only given to a few! Don't be down hearted Welly maybe one day, just not yet!!!:D :D

[Wellydeckhand]

I dont understand how can walrus fin kick ass? Amazing............:D:D:D ..........must be new technology

[safewalrus]

Oh we can Welly we can!:p :cool:

[longliner45]

do you need a referreeeeeeeeeeeeee:)

[Wellydeckhand]

Ok here some picture of present large wooden ferry.......... thriving in Mahakam.

[Ari]

Wo..ah..those wooden ferry are even bigger than the one in Sarawak..they got satelite disc on board..oo..this is lot bigger than the one in Riau provinces..

[Wellydeckhand]

Yeh........ I can get a recently build 2nd hand with engine for 450 juta...... if I can get the cash..... too much investment elsewhere:)

[Wellydeckhand]

Ari can you post the picture of sarawak and riau version of wooden boat?

[Ari]

Sorry Welly I didn't have the photo.Maybe I should buy a camera before my next trip.

[Robert Gainer]

Ok here some picture of present large wooden ferry.......... thriving in Mahakam.

I just joined the thread so I might be confused but some of those boats seem to be steel not wood and quite modern.
Robert Gainer

[Wellydeckhand]

I just joined the thread so I might be confused but some of those boats seem to be steel not wood and quite modern.
Robert Gainer

Yes, the steel ferry are for river party by the keraton Kutai and can be charter. The wooden one is the old and very long in size, I can photo only segment by part, because the upload do not support anything above 2M pixel.

Wooden river palace can be made by local cheap wood as long as you can show a plan and have a person to oversea it.:)

[StianM]

Sorry but I don't think coal has a future in propulsion. Indonesia is probartly left behind in the development off pulution control, but that wont last forewer. Maybe allready next year it will pop up a law that will strand your boat. I would go for the stirling and runn it on gas. The stirling has alot bether efficensy than a steam or combustion engine, bur I also think it could peovide a problem during manuvering since it has problems maintaining speed under rapedly changing load conditions. A Diesel generator running in paralel could with some tinkering solve this problem.

[Wellydeckhand]

Sorry but I don't think coal has a future in propulsion. Indonesia is probartly left behind in the development off pulution control, but that wont last forewer. Maybe allready next year it will pop up a law that will strand your boat. I would go for the stirling and runn it on gas. The stirling has alot bether efficensy than a steam or combustion engine, bur I also think it could peovide a problem during manuvering since it has problems maintaining speed under rapedly changing load conditions. A Diesel generator running in paralel could with some tinkering solve this problem.

He..... he....... That is an idea for river transportation, of course I am using the diesel fuel but looking for alternative cheap way of saving cost and providing cheap fare for the inland people.:)

Wellydeckhand

[StianM]

He..... he....... That is an idea for river transportation, of course I am using the diesel fuel but looking for alternative cheap way of saving cost and providing cheap fare for the inland people.:)

Wellydeckhand

Scania is producing a compound kit for there truck engines and I would not be suprised if it was posible to fitt this to there marine engines too.

Compounding would giwe 5-15% fuel reduction.

Also a exhaust boiler could exstract heat and save fuel, but I can't come up with anny use for it on a river boat. If you had a evaporator onboard it could be used as a cheap way off making safe drinking water since the energy is there annyway.

I really don't turn on to your coal idea since I belive it wont do good to the inviroment and sooner or later your goverment will come with polution restrictions. This could be solved with CO2 exstraction, but this is still a exspensive tecnolegy and where should you despose it?
The efficensy off a steam boat is low compared to diesel so even if you put in 2kw off coal it would represent 1,5kw off oil. It has loss in the steam boiler, the turbine/engine and a heat loss in steam going out.

A steam system require good maintinance. You have too keep the feed water abow 80 C to make shure it's free of oxygen. oxygen can cause huge corotion problems on the steam system. It also require cemicals in the boiler water and you nead a condenser unit to recover the water/steam from the steam turbine/engine so you can reuse the same water over and over again.
If you just refil with normal water you are asking for truble. Steam is also unsafe. If you buy qualety product's it will cost you alot and it will nead constant inspections. If you don't buy qualety it could cost manny people there lifes the moment the steam boiler or pipes burst. Unless you are building a boat that nead to produce low vibrations oe low noice I would not recomend annyone to install a steam system for propulsion.

If you have a problem in Indonesia with food waste I would tell you to buy a machine to grind it up, heat it to make the fatt cell's explode and a decanter and purefier in series to give you pure bilogical home made diesel.

If you have the posebilety to get your hands on old lube oil and other low qualety oil's a gasturbine could be a option. They can combust annything that floats and burns. You only nead to preheat it first. You could order a cheap one that has too manny hours on it to be aproved for flight's

Because off curent or future iviromental regulation's it's not manny poweroptions to chose from. I rekomend you to still take the diesel engine, but try to explore ways to selvage the waste heat. Find way's to use the cooling water and exhaust.

For manuvering I would chose a Brunvoll compas truster www.brunvoll.no
Rolls Royce compas trusters are bether, but also more exspensive.

[Wellydeckhand]

That is alot of info for a post. Thank you, Biodesiel would be a near future reality for Indonesia. We are crazy in planting oil producing palm.

Err....... what about using of bracket which is better and less pollution in the exhauste.( the type people use for stove burning, Stacked)

Maybe you can join the thread on biodesiel.

WDH

[StianM]

That is alot of info for a post. Thank you, Biodesiel would be a near future reality for Indonesia. We are crazy in planting oil producing palm.
WDH

It will never be enough. We have to think about energy recovery. If we are continuing like this 93% of the USA have to grow plant's for bio diesel production too feed the americans only.


Err....... what about using of bracket which is better and less pollution in the exhauste.( the type people use for stove burning, Stacked)

I'm not shure what you mean by this. I don't have knowledge about this braket's. My english is not perfect. You mean the wood coal? It don't polute, but produce litle energy I belive. Burns to slow and produce to litle heat. You would nead a masive burner to heat just a litle steam. I could be wrong on this.


Maybe you can join the thread on biodesiel.

Don't think so. I don't have mutch belive in it as a fuel that will save the world. Only as a petrolium mix or as smal projects like your riverboat.
Keep me informed ok?

[Wellydeckhand]

He...... He...... u too worried...... ok will do but you have to activate the function in your userCP on private message PM before we can exchange comment privately within the forum.:)

[StianM]

I have some steam theory up in my head and can draw up a simple diagram off a energy efficiant steam system for you if you like.

They you can have a idea off how complex it is and decide if you still want to do it. It's also a tonn off matematics included in constructing and running it.

Did you conider duel fuel engines?
You can runn them on gas and you ignite the gas by injecting a smal amount off diesel trough the nozzles.

During world war 2 manny car's in norway was running on gas from wood. The wood was heated and the gas coming out off it was used as fuel for the engines.

Maybe you could exstract the same gas from the leftovers from the palm oil production?

Everything contains energy, you only have to find a way to get use off it.

[SamSam]

He...... He...... u too worried......
Welly, have you ever heard of Alfred E. Neuman? Sam
"In September, Friends of the Earth published a report about the impact of palm oil production. "Between 1985 and 2000," it found, "the development of oil-palm plantations was responsible for an estimated 87 per cent of deforestation in Malaysia". In Sumatra and Borneo, some 4 million hectares of forest have been converted to palm farms. Now a further 6 million hectares are scheduled for clearance in Malaysia, and 16.5 million in Indonesia.

Almost all the remaining forest is at risk. Even the famous Tanjung Puting national park in Kalimantan is being ripped apart by oil planters. The orangutan is likely to become extinct in the wild. Sumatran rhinos, tigers, gibbons, tapirs, proboscis monkeys and thousands of other species could go the same way. Thousands of indigenous people have been evicted from their lands, and some 500 Indonesians have been tortured when they tried to resist. The forest fires which every so often smother the region in smog are mostly started by the palm growers. The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable oil field."

Here's where that came from...
http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/p...try.php?id=447

[SamSam]

During world war 2 manny car's in norway was running on gas from wood. The wood was heated and the gas coming out off it was used as fuel for the engines.

Maybe you could exstract the same gas from the leftovers from the palm oil production?

Everything contains energy, you only have to find a way to get use off it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas/?yguid=152114484

[StianM]

Some year's ago I saw on Norwegian televisjon that some guy's from a high school was running a car on paper's old milk and juice containers moustly.

I would think that Indonesia has enough biomass from wood production or from garbage. Thing's people would be happy to give away.

I must agree with SamSam. Oil production is not truble less, it take up too mutch land for producing if it's going to be enough oil for everybody.

[Wellydeckhand]

The palm oil not only provide for fuel but also cooking food as in frying..... One day Indonesia cant export petrol anymore then palm will be our source of survival.

Ok about the area are retricted by ecomonic term, you are not able to plant in wild area far from mean of road and river transport...... or grow it on land that is more than 14% hilly....... meaning only selected land, alot of the land with wildlife will be spared because of the palm oil self-economic resistriction.

wellydeckhand

[SamSam]

The palm oil not only provide for fuel but also cooking food as in frying..... One day Indonesia cant export petrol anymore then palm will be our source of survival.

Ok about the area are retricted by ecomonic term, you are not able to plant in wild area far from mean of road and river transport...... or grow it on land that is more than 14% hilly....... meaning only selected land, alot of the land with wildlife will be spared because of the palm oil self-economic resistriction.

wellydeckhand

I have trouble figuring out what you are saying sometimes. If you are saying economics will stop your forests from being leveled, I say the opposite. Economics will flatten your forests and any laws you might have to protect them or any people in the way. You're coming out of the third world directly into a global economy. The bottom line is the top priority. The rainforest trees are real valuble, logging roads are real cheap. I think you have a lot of agricultural oriented people looking for work there. A deforested rainforest probably makes a good palm oil plantation. What do those Dayak people say? Is there a lot of illegal logging going on in the forests? How about mining? Sam

[Wellydeckhand]

Logging is **** job now...... I have witness 5 person was jailed and the key tossed into the river for just 2 bl@@dy cubic of meranti:). I was shocked, the pressure SBY gave to all forestry is real and harsh. I see the town of Berau formly a logger heaven have depopulized by more than half. That is the truth on wood story.

As the mining goes, many mine is setting up, that are even monintor bty the govt. strict rule on reaforestation and filling back pit hole or transform it into non polluted big pond with fish and vegetation.

For the palm plantation, I mean it is geography resistricted by the gradient or steepness of the land contour. The palm will not be efficient planted and harvest if your hectar of land have a 14% of sloopy hilly land contour. I mean you are harvesting 20,000 hectar a day, no mean job.

WDH

[longliner45]

The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable oil field."

QUOTE]

well isnt georgia one big agraculteral state? cotton,peanuts and pine trees for the power companys ,,,,,,,so why not indonisia?

[StianM]

The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable oil field."

QUOTE]

well isnt georgia one big agraculteral state? cotton,peanuts and pine trees for the power companys ,,,,,,,so why not indonisia?

I agree.
If demand's for oil become big enough the price will rice.
If the price get high enough they would build a greenhouse on Mt.Everest to grow palm three's for oil production.
What's hapening with the 14% slope then?
If price is right we wont have funerals annymore because our body's will be subjects off oil production. You could drive from Callifornia to Florida on a overweight american. I have ben doing service work on a fatt recoveryplant where they exstract oil from dead animals and left overs from the butcher so I know it can be done. Would not suprise me if someone would try to make profitt on offering people to donate there body to save the inviroment.
Essos a Tiger on the tank could mean Tiger Woods one day. It's all about money.

[Wellydeckhand]

You are mean guy with an attitude. Seriously, I seen bad people looking for big quantity land for palm, they are powerful and frightening but wont touch land with more than 14% sloop, they're looking for the soccer ball field, u get my meaning?:D

[StianM]

You are mean guy with an attitude. Seriously, I seen bad people looking for big quantity land for palm, they are powerful and frightening but wont touch land with more than 14% sloop, they're looking for the soccer ball field, u get my meaning?:D

They don't toutch it because it's to exspensive to runn it, but if the price get's right it would be interesting annyway.
Fish boats in Norway did not runn HFO because it mean the maintinance cost will rice. Now the Diesel is so exspensive that it will justefy the extra maintnance cost to runn on HFO so now they are instaling HFO modules like crazy. It's all about if it will give profit or not.

[Wellydeckhand]

They don't toutch it because it's to exspensive to runn it, but if the price get's right it would be interesting annyway.
Fish boats in Norway did not runn HFO because it mean the maintinance cost will rice. Now the Diesel is so exspensive that it will justefy the extra maintnance cost to runn on HFO so now they are instaling HFO modules like crazy. It's all about if it will give profit or not.

Err...... ever try to relocate an entire headhunting squard village and try to take their land?:)

[StianM]

Err...... ever try to relocate an entire headhunting squard village and try to take their land?:)

Nope, but guy's with money would. It's not that exspansive to kill a village by poisening there food supply or rent a nabour head hunter vilage to take care off them.

Don't underestimate the power off the dark (kapitalism) side.

Did you chose propulsin for you riverboat yet?

[Ari]

Err...... ever try to relocate an entire headhunting squard village and try to take their land?:)
As I remember..the previous group that tried that..doesn't even have the opportunity to regret..

[Wellydeckhand]

Nope, but guy's with money would. It's not that exspansive to kill a village by poisening there food supply or rent a nabour head hunter vilage to take care off them.

Don't underestimate the power off the dark (kapitalism) side.

Did you chose propulsin for you riverboat yet?

Well, I am neg. with a tough guy for a 15 m river boat double deck using mitshubishi truck engine. The price is 150 millions rupiah...... equal 15,000 US$. Have bathroom, with sitting type ceramic closet, stove Propane. The boat is 2nd hand, good shape, used only 2 years, the guy like to gamble.

I am still pressurizing the guy to bounce to my better offer. I need to find a crew to drive the vessel. I can sell ticket for 150,000 rupiah for a night trip, the vessel can take 150 people cramp up like sardine without food, but open air is free anyway.:) I try to find a btter solution but it seem the present method prevail.:) sad as it is :(

wellydeckhand

[Wellydeckhand]

As I remember..the previous group that tried that..doesn't even have the opportunity to regret..

The last big bang in Indonesia part of the Borneo was approx at era 60', it took out a whole village of a few thousand people. Now the head is in various tourist home as survenior....... good luck charm.( better than rabbit ass):D sorry I cant help it.

WDH

[StianM]

I don't think it would me mutch off a problem to get your fuel cost reduced.
Maybe we sould start a thread about minimise fuel cost?

[Wellydeckhand]

yes, why not you start a thread...... you re better at fending it:) I would try to buckle you down with question.......:)

[SamSam]

The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable oil field."

QUOTE]

well isnt georgia one big agraculteral state? cotton,peanuts and pine trees for the power companys ,,,,,,,so why not indonisia?

I think you're saying Georgia's done it, so why shouldn't Indonesia be allowed to? (?) I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm saying it will be done. It's being done right now. Money and greed will overcome all the obstacles that Welly has mentioned. Sam

[SamSam]

The last big bang in Indonesia part of the Borneo was approx at era 60', it took out a whole village of a few thousand people. Now the head is in various tourist home as survenior....... good luck charm.( better than rabbit ass):D sorry I cant help it.

WDH
LOL It's a rabbit FOOT that's the good luck charm. A rabbit ass wouldn't fit in your pocket too well. :D Sam