What The!!!!

[seadogs20]

Recently on a long trip back from Hkg, in the early hours of the morning, and not able to sleep i went up top and sat with my deckie. On radar there was a contact off to port about 26nm away.Now thats not strange being out at sea you see lots of boats -ships, What made me very angry about this contact was this..This SAILING yacht was on a collision course with us, I was on the radio tryin to contact him with no response...to cut a long story short, this Goose was sound asleep, no one on watch and no thought for himself or any other vessel that came upon him. I gave him a few short blasts and he woke up wavein a tourch around, no contact no nothin. My question is are all yachties like this? or is that standard practice.

[DGreenwood]

As if commercial ships always follow the rules. AT LEAST half of the commercial ships I attempt contact with do not answer. And over the years that has been hundreds of attempts. Granted many are fishing boats and many fleets have little regard for other vessels. And I am not talking about frivolous contact attempts either. They were mostly concerning possible near passes or attempts at giving working and larger vessels the room they needed.

[seadogs20]

Most commercial shipping dont, they have the opinion of ...I'm bigger than you get out the way.... and they are, and I do.

[JPC]

I would say "not standard practice" -but also not uncommon.

The chosen backstop for most vessels in the open sea is statistics: it is enormously unlikely to encounter another vessel.

I am a solo sailor, and thus, have my vessel "off watch" at times. I rely significantly on the above backstop. Generally, I will "lose" any collision with any vessel that is in the open sea, so my motive for avoiding it is pretty high.

I use radar which does an automatic scan (with alarm) every 15min, and also an AIS alarm. I am considering adding an alarm that responds to an incoming radar signal. I never sleep in coastal waters. It's still a gamble.

Hopefully, a system like AIS will mature such that all vessels actually "talk" to each other's AIS systems and sound an alert in the case of proximity or converging course. Pretty simple electronics, but not there yet as far as adoption.

[safewalrus]

JPC - rearrage the following into a well known phrase or saying "LAW, BREAKING, ARE, YOU"

ALL vessels at sea, with the exception of warships who are overmanned will at times miss others for various reasons! Sleep, making a meal, drunk, reading a book, talking to his mate (possibly on the telephone or radio!) or maybe even just gone for a wee - but it happens. No excuse but as they say '**** happens'. However the majority DO NOT do it delibrately, with one exception! The 'single hander' or 'short hander' will at some time make a delibrate decission to sleep! He will justify this by all sorts of stories about alarms etc but these are both electronic (electrics and saltwater do not mix very well - the nearer you are to it the more chance of it failing, small boats beware) and we are all human and MAY sllep through the alarm!) But IT IS TILL PREMEDITATED MURDER. Goverments compound this by allowing singlehanded races etc to happen (some even encourage it).

"Don't be a fool, follow the rule"

It could of course include self murder (suicide):D

[riggertroy]

Not sure how much people have had to do with AIS, but until the electronics and programming are totally idiot proof there will be problems caused by the use of AIS.
Right now I often have officers telling me that "AIS is better than ARPA", I've had VTIS mistakenly ID my ship due to errors in the systems on different vessels(own included), was on a ship not so long ago where the AIS assumed that the external GPS was always on WGS-84 Datum, we normally had it set on a different datum to agree with the charts in our area of operation. Discovered this issue when at anchor, looking out the window and comparing that with the radar display and the AIS display, well the mark one eye ball taking a bearing showed that the AIS was churning out incorrect info, hmm... spoke with a couple of the other ships around the anchorage, compared types of gear, found that every ship with a certain brand GPS and AIS was able to give false position reports, largest error was approx 10nm.
I think some accidents will occur because of mistaken belief that "The Alarm will warn me",

AIS can work well, I always think - it is another tool in the box but has to be used with caution - remember it's limitations / errors

Be interested in what others think.

[JPC]

Me too: -hearing what other people think.

Safewalrus, you're right, and I didn't mean to give the impression of advocating off-watch sailing or that certain pieces of equipment make it OK. In the perfect world, it might not happen, but in our world it does; I'd like to see it as safe as possible.

[seadogs20]

yes he is right!!! how many times do you hear "Sorry im late ,slept thru the alarm " or "alarm didnt go off" thats ok when your on land and in bed......But matey on the sea if you missed that alarm you could be in a world of trouble. Solo sailing should be illegal

[nero]

seadogs20 "Solo sailing should be illegal"

The sea is the last reachable frontier. And you want to go and spoil that too?

[Vega]

Solo sailing should be illegal

I guess you mean ocean sailing...but that is already illegal, because legally you have to have someone on watch...and that is impossible in an ocean singlehanded crossing.

Looks like nobody cares...first you would have to ban single handed races.

[safewalrus]

Correction - Governments have to ban ban single handed races!

Actually I don't care all that much for the safety of the single hander, if the daft bugger wants to kill himself let him! :mad: Unfortunately this is said from the chair at home. :rolleyes: When at sea and somebody shouts help ALL Seamen (no matter the nation or anomosity at the time), will immediately drop everything and divert to that persons help!! Risking his own life to help. :( Unfortunately seafarers have been lost (dead!) helping out 'lone yacht'smen/women' who have run into trouble! Most of the time these people are not out there for the glory of some bloody newspaper! After all every seafarer is (or should be) aware of the 'rules of the road' and the 'practice of good seamanship!' :rolleyes: and probably wouldn't take the risk but for being goaded on by the newspaper etc for their readers who are sat at home in comfort and need a cheap thrill.....go play with the traffic on the nearest motorway; the mess is easier to clean up!:D

[seadogs20]

Nero, you still have to follow the rules.....dont ya???

[safewalrus]

Probably think he's got an exemption from God to ignore everybody else! Unfortunately you get 'em; trouble is it only takes one ripe banana to ripen the whole batch!:D

[nero]

No god ... no worries.

Laws and rules are words. Probably a good idea to follow them. Most certainly need to understand them and the idea they represent. But, if everybody marched along after them, nothing would be much fun.

Heck, If all the rule breakers were in prison, then we wouldn't have our current politicians or the ones who made the rules in the first place. Now what kinda of a world would that be?

Was not aware that there was a governmental body that has imposed laws on the open sea. It has been my dream for over 20 years to sail the ocean solo. Now, y'all are trying to take that away from me too.

Don't get too excited about me causing a problem, It'll be another 4 years before I finish up my catamaran. smile May not be up for another hell week.

[safewalrus]

And when you go how many will you take with you? if you see what I mean! T'was said the first nero was mad! does history repeat itself?

Certainly!

"I din't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it"

[riggertroy]

Single handed sailing around the world? Fine if they are going to be awake, alert and keeping a look-out 100% of the time, otherwise how are they going to keep a lookout?

A few years back I got abuse from a solo yachtsman when I spot-lighted him, he was about to enter a bouy pattern at an offshore installation, he had not replied to the radio calls, even complained that I was disturbing his sleep, now who would have got the abuse if I'd left him alone and he had collided with one of the many buoys, jackets or barges in the field?

Also - I often think that some yachties think that power has to give way to sail all of the time, just remember overtaking vessels have to keep clear until well past, a tug and tow mid ocean might be making 4knots, lots of yachts go quicker than that.

[safewalrus]

You would buddy if YOU were the 'Standby vessel' and not only from the yotty! the toolpusher would have been mighty pissed! Yonder yotty is lucky he woke when he did! I've heard 'toolpushers' suggest a bit of ramming and pushing to shift the bugger! That would have really caused fun (and a death!)

Unfortunately the yotty (not all of them, some are bloody good and know what they're doing) doesn't realise the situation half of the time and thinks he has 'devine rights' cos he's only 'doing it for pleasure'!

[riggertroy]

No drilling at the time, but as we had divers down, if he'd gotten too close we would have had to nudge him if we'd had no response, better a bent boat than bent or dead divers.

Have to agree that there are some bloody good ones out there but unfortunately we only seem to focus on the bad ones, as the good ones never seem to cause grief. Mind you there are some shocking guys on the commercial side.

[safewalrus]

Trouble is a 'nudge' could end up with a dead yotty if he rolls and gets trapped! Helluva situation for anybody to be in!

and yeah in this modern high speed world there's some real muppets wherever you go! don't help!

There but for the grace of God (and a few years!) go I -you have my sypathies, for what it's worth!

[riggertroy]

Maybe wheel washing the guy would be a better bet?(though gently)

[safewalrus]

Yeah that'd put some interest in his life! As long as you had the time - in this case you were the guy on the spot and did the right thing! Power to you!

[Bergalia]

Solo sailing should be illegal

Quite right too seadogs20. But why stop there, let's ban all those bastard adventurous spirits, rockclimbers, mountaineers, Arctic/Antarctic explorers, astronauts, cosmonauts...all those crazy buggers who won't confine themselves to a sedentary life of couch-potato-ing. Dammit why can't they be mild mannered sheep like you appear to be, unwilling to peep over the farm wall in case there's something worth discovering in themselves and in the world. Let's legislate so they too restrict themselves to an eternal diet of TV soapies, tabloid journalism, and nanny knows best administration. How dare they try and grow wings... :mad:

[safewalrus]

And ban anybody who drinks whisky, when it's a well known fact that only the sane drink whiskey!

[Bergalia]

And ban anybody who drinks whisky, when it's a well known fact that only the sane drink whiskey!

This calamuny is of course based on the fact (rpt FACT) that at one time the Cornish attempted to make 'whisky' and failed miserably. They are now better known for their (also failed) attempt to make a meat pie - which because of their inabilty to spell correctly, they spelled 'pastie.
:D

[seadogs20]

Quite right too seadogs20. But why stop there, let's ban all those bastard adventurous spirits, rockclimbers, mountaineers, Arctic/Antarctic explorers, astronauts, cosmonauts...all those crazy buggers who won't confine themselves to a sedentary life of couch-potato-ing. Dammit why can't they be mild mannered sheep like you appear to be, unwilling to peep over the farm wall in case there's something worth discovering in themselves and in the world. Let's legislate so they too restrict themselves to an eternal diet of TV soapies, tabloid journalism, and nanny knows best administration. How dare they try and grow wings... :mad:
Bergalia: What I was saying is that it's bloody dangerous for solo yachtsmen to be out there.Not just for them,but on the poor b#$@%^d who ends up hitting them.You can be an explorer,astronaut or whatever, all the power to them, they are risking there lives to achieve what ever it is they wish to achieve...A lone yachtsmen is potentially risking his life just like a explorer...difference being his risking mine as well:mad: :mad:

[Bergalia]

Seadogs20, as I understand it, you became aware of the 'solo sailor' heading on a collision course. Regardless of rights or wrongs, you were aware of his/her error - and therefore you had the chance and duty to avoid any possible collision. That you believe the ídiot' put you in danger would only be exacerbated by your acting in an equally idiotic fashion by failing to give way, or take avoiding action. While out driving if someone steps off the kerb into your path do you insist on the right as a driver to use the highway and run them down ? Of course not. You avoid them and probably curse them. But you don't thumb through your Highway Code to check who had right of way, or what regulation they've broken, or call for all pedestrians to be banned.
It is when both parties 'stick to their rights' that accidents happen. Australian roads are littered with wayside 'crosses' of those who insisted on exercising their 'rights' regardless of the consequences.:rolleyes:

[seadogs20]

Bergalia: If I hadnt given way, we would be talking about a collision,not a near miss....There was no way that I would have hit him...we were on watch ..unlike the lone yachty..Now what would have been the result if we had been a container ship?

[Bergalia]

Sure, seadogs20, I understand this, What I am questioning is your suggestion that solo sailors should be banned.
As you are well aware the roads here in Australia are among the most hazardous in the 'western' world. Like the situation at sea - there are always people out there who shouldn't be. It's up to us who are experienced, for our own survival as well as theirs, to ensure that we drive/sail with extra caution to allow for their foolishness. I always 'drive' the car in front of me', and sail the craft on my horizon. :)

[seadogs20]

Exactly, Bergalia,we take the precautions...whether it be slowing down on the road passing schools,zebra crossings etc, or having someone on watch..to not do so is foolhardy to say the least.

[Wellydeckhand]

Quite right too seadogs20. But why stop there, let's ban all those bastard adventurous spirits, rockclimbers, mountaineers, Arctic/Antarctic explorers, astronauts, cosmonauts...all those crazy buggers who won't confine themselves to a sedentary life of couch-potato-ing. Dammit why can't they be mild mannered sheep like you appear to be, unwilling to peep over the farm wall in case there's something worth discovering in themselves and in the world. Let's legislate so they too restrict themselves to an eternal diet of TV soapies, tabloid journalism, and nanny knows best administration. How dare they try and grow wings... :mad:

Wonder if your wife banned u sir from goin solo to dark and unknown alley in Amsterdam Red light district? lol......:D:D:D

[Bergalia]

Wonder if your wife banned u sir from goin solo to dark and unknown alley in Amsterdam Red light district? lol......:D:D:D

Not at all old chap...she sent us in to find you. There was no way you'd find your own way out clad in all that rubber wear.... :rolleyes:

[safewalrus]

Do pasties have meat in them? :confused: Must look next time I try one - mind you they are better than a forfar bridie (the same thing in shape with a foreign accent) which only has fat in it - lard normally!:rolleyes: Touche Bergalia - remember the ones we sell the tourists aren't the real thing those are too good for them (emmet!);)

[Bergalia]

Ah Walrus, you refer I think to the McPastie (haggis) - reserved for our transAtlantic cousins. A cunning source of revenge and a way of ridding ourselves of the offal left after the Scots have eaten the choice meat. Usually served up with the dregs from the distillery drains (blended whisky) which has usually beed hanging around for ten, twelve even twenty-five years. Gawd love ém. They'll buy anything with tartan wrapped around it. :D

[safewalrus]

Aye tis trew (?), and if you've no tartan on ye afew lines of colour will also work, old tablecloth etc from the MacHine clan - ye ken them well:D :D

[BillyDoc]

O Salty ones, a question!

What does the signal, two red lights, one above the other, over the cockpit or in a place of maximum visibility, combined with normal mast-head tri-color mean on a sailboat underway?

You are all quite correct about the safety issues, and as a single-hander with a lot of miles under my keel I am well aware of them. But, you have to sleep sometime, and the risk if you stay out of known sea-lanes and only sleep when well off-shore is actually pretty minimal. When that isn't possible, you can go for days with 10 minute naps and a quick scan of the horizon, set the egg timer and back to sleep for another 10. Fiberglass boats also conduct sound well, and if you are scared enough the sound of screws will wake you well before the ship causing the sound comes over the horizon. My point being, there are no good solutions to this one, but in my case not going out alone means staying on land with all the idiots! Would you really wish that on anyone?

You can also enhance your chances with radar detectors, AIS and even hydrophones . . . but that old Mark I eyeball is indeed the best.

Bill

[Vega]

O Salty ones, a question!

What does the signal, two red lights, one above the other, over the cockpit or in a place of maximum visibility, combined with normal mast-head tri-color mean on a sailboat underway?

You are all quite correct about the safety issues, and as a single-hander with a but in my case not going out alone means staying on land with all the idiots!
Bill

:p :p :p :p

It means a sailboat making way, not under command.

That´s what solo sailors should show in their boats when taking a nap at night. Have you ever seen a sailboat with those lights?:?: :?: :?: Do you use them?

[safewalrus]

Yeah Great Billy, get your point, :cool: but.....

What if???? :confused:

The other Prat is also a single hander, with a bigger boat and a knackered egg timer and naps like the dead

Some of us would miss you buddy! (boll***s to the other bast*** he deserved it, but you! NO. Still a man has to do what a man has to do to stay sane!):rolleyes:

I don't suffer from insanity, I'm loving every minute of it!:D

[BillyDoc]

Vega, I had the lights permanently mounted. All I had to do was turn on the switch, which I always did. The red light was actually handy to gently light up the deck without ruining my night vision when I stuck my head out for my horizon scan. Made it easy to check the sails, etc.

Walrus, that's where the statistical approach comes in. The odds of you being in the same spot at the same time as that "other bugger" are about the same as the odds for a fair election in the U. S. of A. Damn slight, in other words. Still, the quick scan, staying out of sea lanes, etc., is bound to improve on those odds.

I did one single-hand from Chichester to Lisbon (in 1977) where I followed the old sailing directions out to 10 degrees west before turning left, and stayed about 400 miles off the coast of Portugul. Went for weeks without seeing so much as a light. Of course, coming out of the channel was an adventure. No sleep there!

Bill

[safewalrus]

Know that stretch well, :) Bill! Yeah actually as long as you stay some ten miles outside of most shipping lanes you've got no problems! :D And lit up like a bloody Christmas tree works most of the time! :cool: Just cost a wee bit more in power if you have it to use - and thats the problem for most single handers, the nature of the beast means that you probably ain't got that power to hand. But if you have get a white between the reds (mmm naughty but **** if it keeps you alive! :p the purists might not like it even if they understand it! [Gilly certainly won't but that's Gilly ;) ] and some deck lights OR my favourite a Flashing Orange :idea: - that get's 'em going! (but turn the VHF off!):D :D

[Vega]

Vega, I had the lights permanently mounted. All I had to do was turn on the switch, which I always did.
Bill

I am impressed. I have to confess that I had never seen a sail boat with that set-up...and worst...I had never thought of that:D ...but it is also true that I had never needed it (normally, for long jumps, I sail with my daughter).
Thanks, I am going to mount a set-up like that on my next boat.;)

[BillyDoc]

Hey Walrus, this was a nice sweet Contessa 26 built by Mr. Jeremy Rodgers not far from where you sit. It wasn't at all "restricted in ability to maneuver” . . . oh, unless you meant when trying to back it out of a slip or something. It was a real pig then! You're right, I should have fitted that extra light for getting out of port . . .

Vega, you will like the lights. It's very nice to not have to fumble around for a torch or whatever if you are in a hurry about something. My Contessa had a single backstay that split into two above the cockpit. The place where it split was a triangular stainless steel plate with the three attachment holes. I just made another one with a central hole canted at an angle so I could run a stainless steel tube vertically up through it, and welded the tube into place. I then mounted the two lights at either end of this tube and ran the wires down one of the stays. I also wrapped the wires with stainless steel tape (which I can no longer find) on the outside of the rubber insulation to protect it from sunlight. The installation was still good ten years later when I sold the boat. Next time I'm using LEDs though.

Bill

[safewalrus]

:D Bill - like the LED idea that should be a BIG saving on power (as long as you get the range, dont forget you need a couple of miles!) The middle white light was (is) only for the '********' factor! there is no way under normal circumstances that any sailing yacht would be 'restricted in it's ability to manouver' under the Regulation (Unless of course you believe that a pure 'sailing vessel' is restricted AT ALL times because he can't suddeenly change course! unlike your average power driven vessel - might take some time to do it but he can!) But as I said the more lights the better to alert the numpty to the fact your there: might upset the purist but............it's about life!:D

[BillyDoc]

I hear you Walrus, and knew what you meant. But if you think a Contessa isn't REALLY restricted . . . you haven't tried to back one up! Long full and very deep keel. It just goes where it wants to when backing. You might as well not bother with the tiller.

LEDs are very bright any more. I have a flashlight I seem to use a lot when we have hurricanes that has a single one-watt white LED in it . . . and it is BRIGHT! Most new cars are using red LEDs in their tail and brake lights as well. Great technology! And on a masthead tri-colour you aren't nearly as likely to be taking an awkward trip up the pole to replace a bulb.

Still, I'm glad you clarified what you were saying, because I take your advise seriously. I remember when I was leaving Chichester on that trip I mentioned above. I was very green about sailing, in fact I had never done it before. One of your countrymen, no doubt recognizing that I didn't have a clue what I was about, was kind and generous with his advice as I was preparing for my trip and prevented a serious problem. He was helping me check over my supplies and asked how much fresh water I was carrying. I told him, he did some calculations and told me quite seriously that I probably had way too much. "No matter," he went on to say, "you can always add salt and pour it back in."

Well that got me to thinking about my salt supply, and I made a special trip back into town and bought enough to take care of the surplus. As it turned out I needed it too!

It's always good to be prepared for every contingency! There aren't many markets where we prowl.

Bill

[safewalrus]

Aye Bill you can't overdoo the salt supply! Unless of courase your like our Old friend (stress AWLD) Bergalia who has seen so mutch salt he rubs his eyebrows over his dinner when he wants extra salt these days!:p

[BillyDoc]

You're so right, Walrus! The eyebrows work MUCH better than the shoulders! And the older you get the bushier THEY get and the more I crave salt on me vittles! It's a perfect harmony of events. Of course the convenience of this does depend on avoiding those nasty baths. Easy to do when out sailing.

It's a well balanced world we live in and I thank ye again for helping me to appreciate it!

Bill

[safewalrus]

Aye brother and I'll mind to stay upwind too! (so that's what they mean by the vessel to windward has right of way!)

"I don't suffer from insanity, I'm loving every minute of it!"

[BillyDoc]

Exactly! And a good rule it is!

Was Bergalia out sailing when that rule came to be? It would explain it for sure, what with the hagus and all . . .

Bill

[safewalrus]

So! you do know him!

Once smelt never forgotten eh! Tis the peat in his whisky that does it (thow what the hell he's doing letting somebody call Pete wade around in his booze beats me! :D

[Wellydeckhand]

Not at all old chap...she sent us in to find you. There was no way you'd find your own way out clad in all that rubber wear.... :rolleyes:

Mmmmm........ as I say my face is still underconstruction....:eek: :eek: :eek: ........... I am NOT a rubber bunny:mad: :mad: :mad: ......:D:D:D...... cant find me in those rubber lover website.......:cool: