Designing a boat at age 12

[starling718]

For the past few months my friends Avery, Hana, Aaron, Jamie and I have been designing a small sailing ship. We're all 12 and plan to sail to the galapagoes(sorry. no clue how to spell it.:rolleyes: ) islands to study zoology and the theory of evolution when we're out of collage. It sounds kind of crazy for a bunch of 12 year olds, but we've been reserching this for all most a year. Last week, Avery and I went to the Darwin exibit at the Museum Of Natral History and desided to base the ship on the Beagul, the ship Darwin used to explore. We've already got the basic plan for the ship which is going to be called The Starling. :?: Why the Starling? God only knows. We went throught a to of plant and animal names and we thought it was a cool name.:D One of our other destonations is the Amazon Rainforest. Thousands of speices there are being distroyed there every day and we don't even know some of the exist. I wrote an artical, yesturday, for school about it.

Liz Scales 1/10/06
601 M.O.G
Rainforest Deforestation
And how it effects the environment

One of Earth’s most beautiful treasures, the Rainforest, is at this very moment being cut down and destroyed just as we begin to appreciate its true value. 14% of the earth’s land surface used to be covered in rainforests; now they cover a mere 6%. Most experts say that the last of the remaining rainforests could be consumed in less than 40 years. Every second, one and one half acres of rainforest are lost. Rainforest land is valued only by the quality of its timber by short-sighted governments, multi-national logging companies, and land owners. About half of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms will be destroyed or severely threatened over the next quarter century because of rainforest destruction. Every day, we lose about 137 plant, animal, and insect species because of deforestation in the rainforest. That amounts up to 50,000 species a year, most of which we have never even bothered to discover their existence. Many cures to life-threatening diseases disappear along with the rainforest species. After rainforest land is cleared, it is used as farm land and/or ranching operations by big international companies. Along with rainforest plants and animals the Indian tribes of people who live there are also disappearing. The Amazon rainforest has been described as the “Lungs of our planet” because of the essential recycling of carbon dioxide into oxygen. More than 20% of the earth’s oxygen supply is produced in the Amazon Rainforest. More than half of the worlds 10 million species live in tropical rainforests. Of all the fresh water in the world, one fifth of it is in the Amazon. 2.47 acres of rainforest may have over 750 types of trees. 3,000 fruits grow in the rainforests, but only 200 are used in the Western World. The Amazon Rainforest covers over a billion acres. If it were a country, it would be the 9th largest in the world. If people stop cutting the rainforest down and harvest its many nuts, fruits, oil-producing plants, and medicinal plants, the rainforest would have more economic value, experts say. If we care for it properly, the rainforest can provide the worlds need for natural resources. All this states that the rainforest is worth a lot more alive then cut down and burned.


I think people should take more care of the enviorment. That's the whole idea of this expedition.

[safewalrus]

Keep it up lads - a very Noble thing you are doing there! But please get a qualified Marine Architect to look over those plans with you before you start building. He should be able to help you a lot. Also I would talk to your teacher about it, don't worry if people laugh, as long as you have faith you'll ge there! Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but you will,as long as you take your time and do it right!:cool:

[starling718]

Thanks for replying to the post. I know I have to get all this stuff done before I start building anything. All we did was draw a small sketch of the boat and list the rooms. We don't plan to do anything untill we're out of collage and have raised enough money. Today, in science class I learned that the price for gasoline for a yacht for a one way trip to florida is about $100,000.!!! Scary thought. Good thing The Starling is going to be solar powered. I've always lived by the sea and have always loved it. I belong there. I think the Starling won't easly be forgotten when we're in collage. As long as we stick together, we'll come through. Just today, my friend Maia who plans to be an archaelogist said she would love to join. We have a good amount of people, now.

[Tim B]

Sounds like you're getting a good, diverse team together, and, just as importantly, planning to do good things for the planet (we need more people like you). I do wonder, though, why you are basing your boat on the Beagle, and not something more modern.

What is a huge issue, is solar-power. I did a (very) quick feasibility study on it some time ago, and basically, using a solar/electric system just isn't feasable for doing more than a few knots for any length of time. I suspect in eight or ten years, it might well be more possible, but at the moment the technology just isn't there.

What might be feasible, is to use solar power to heat water and use it to power some kind of turbine. I suspect that would be ok around the equator, but not really great outside the tropics. Unfortunately, turbine efficiency isn't great either (perhaps slightly better than solar/electric).

For my money, I think I'd copy a relatively modern 45 to 50 foot sailing yacht. Perhaps with an electric motor and a small generator, instead of a big horrible engine.

Anyway, just a few thoughts, post a few ideas on the forum and we'll help you all we can.

It's a good (if tricky) project,

Tim B.

[marshmat]

If you're interested in solar, may I suggest considering multihull shapes- a catamaran, perhaps? Solar panels take up a lot of space and the voyage to the Galapagos is not exactly short- so the catamaran's combination of lots of space inside the cabin, with lots of room on deck for solar array, might be a good one. Solar power technology advances very quickly; by the time you build your boat, solar cells will likely cost about one-half to one-fifth of what they do today, and will be more powerful and durable.

I always find it best with any design project to start by listing all the requirements- ie. range, how many crew must fit, how big a storm it has to handle, etc- and then come up with several ideas that would meet each goal. If a similar idea comes up for several goals, then I'll look at it some more, compare it to existing designs, etc. and redesign until it meets all of my goals.

Good luck with the project, folks. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it- I built my first boat in grade 8, and I know many who have started younger!

[safewalrus]

Whilst on the subject HMS Beagle was powered by Canvas! She was a sailing vessel! So the solar would be for ? Cooking? Navigation? auxilaries (get in and out of port?)

[zerogara]

By the time you guys finish college their might be no gas/oil, so forget the expense of it. There might not be some of the basic materials to make boats either, except for wood and some old nails and screws you might salvage.
So buy a sailboat and keep it hidden! If there was such a place in NYC!

OK, seriously now, is your goal to built a boat capable of the trip, to make the trip, or to get there and do environmental research?
Read some inspiring story of a "kid" that circumnavigated the globe and became the youngest to do so, with an old little boat. http://holoholo.org/caldwell/
He went by the Galapagoes too!
It takes tons of experience and knowledge to do so and that is what you may be lacking at young age.

FOCUS!

[safewalrus]

Zero, be practical with what are they going to buy this vessel, if they buy it now will it be fit for purpose - big enough? capable enough? maintained enough? etc.:confused:

No better to finalise the boat just before go time with the materials and capabilites available at the time!:cool:

Alos you quote a lad of 15 who sailed around the world, alone! :cool: Then tell us that these sort of activities need lots of experience :rolleyes: - most of these kids are now 12 and know where they are going, in three years time between them they will have more than enough experience, because I'm sure they will learn and not go until ready (besides which they may have parents and guardians who say no way until your ready)!:D

You are however right in telling them to focus - they are, but at the same time they need to grow up into young adults with a well rounded education - that includes parties, and having fun that all kids of that age do! Or are you so old you've forgotten?:D

[trouty]

Boy oh boy do I remember when I was 12!

You know - when your bout 14 or 16 maybe, you'll get a LOT more interested in the female entorage of your sailing trip...and likely it WON'T be for their ability to scale the rigging a reef a sail! ;)

That said, it tis an admirable dream for a group of young people to have.

I have to ask you a question tho.

Try to remember tho, before you answer - I was a forester in a former life, and used to spend a LOT of years (more than you've been alive so far) trying to save the rainforests.

So heres my questions for you.

1. Have ANY of you ever been to a rainforest? ( A true rainforest, is where the tree canopy excludes more than 90% of sunlight from reaching the forest floor).

Ergo - explain to me how you have this great concern fpor the rainforest, if you've never even seen one - or sucked the fresh oxygen from it's folliage deep into your lungs...??

Do you really love this rainforest - or is it just something thats fashionable right now, among kids your age?

2. You tell us a whole acre / football fiel etc of rainforest os dissapearing every second!. So - on the other side of the equation, left to it's own devices - how fast does rainforest grow back?...i.e. - reclaim cleared land, if it's not kept cleared..i.e fenced, grazed down by livestock, and or burntt by humans?

3. If your so concerned about trees and the rainforest, why build a timber sailboat to go to the Galapago's Islands? Surely you'll just be contributing to the global destruction of rainforests to supply the lumber for your sailing ship?

Why not a steel hulled or alluminium or even fibreglass boat to sail?

Pretty good questions eh? ;) :D

Damn foresters!,....think they know everything! he he he..

So - you want my advice?

1. Work out how much lumber you need for this boat.

2. Work out how many 35 year old Huon pine trees or cedar trees etc you will need to build this ark...

3. Each of you in the project - collects the seeds for abut 3 times as many trees as you will need....

4. You all germinate them and get them astablished as seedlings in pots that you all water every day and tend for weeds and fertilise etc.

5. When they are about 2 or 3 months old - you all establish a tree plantation, on land that all of you have sold enough lemonade at lemonade stands to buy outright. You'll need a stocking rate of about 2250 stems per hectare..so you should be able to work out how much land you will need.

6. As a group - you all own this land for 35 years while you protect those trees with your life from disease, insect attacks fire etc etc...

7. By the time your 47...i.e in 35 years time - when the trees are mature, you cut them down - mill them - dry them and then machine them - and then build your boat from them.

That way - you won't be asking ANYTHING from the rainforests of this world, that you aren't fully entitled too!

Course - one small last thing...

Before you mill your timber etc - you have to replant that piece of ground for the next generation - your kids and their kids etc etc.

And then - you have my blesing child - for you will truly understand about rainforests dissapearing - and you will have some small appreciation for the sacrifices generations of foresters before you made of their lives - to provide all the lumber for the vessels you see sailing the waters all over the world now! (and in the years to come!).

Forests are a "renewable" resource....the only reason they are dissapearing, is because no one wants to do the hard work (or pay foresters the $ necessary to do the hard work)...to ensure we plant & nurture more trees than we use.

That responsibility rests on everyones shoulders here (except mine).

Why not me?

1. I've planted about 5000 hectares of said trees a year (@ a stocking ratio of 2250 stems per hectare!) for about 10 years of my life - I reckon I've done my bit!

2. My boats made of aluminium!

Best of luck with your sailing project - you have a lifetimes work ahead of you - better get started right away, no time like the present to get started, the longest of journeys begins with the first step young Starling!

May the force be with you!

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Hey come on Trouty don't blow the dream - they're only going to save the rainforests of the Galapagos Islands! The rest can look after themselves - mind you by the time they're ready to go that'll be the only Rainforest left! Apart from the Greenland one if the experts with their global warming are right:rolleyes:

[Bergalia]

As we 'new'Aussies say - 'Go for it...'
The world, and we oldies, need a generation of dreamers, or else man(and woman)kind will degenerate into a race of zombie-like lumps fastened to their TV's and computers allowing the monopolistic media owners to do their thinking for them. (Thinking, if done at all, will conform to whatever particular political structure happens to be current - and makes most profit).
That grand old Scot, T.E.Lawrence (Probably beter known as Lawrence of Arbroath) said: "Beware of dreamers - for they strive to have their dreams come true..."
Dreamers are to be encouraged. Dreamers built Empires - Bureaucrats lose them. So design your ship, and one day hopefully you'll build it...And hopefully reach the Galapagos before it becomes too Disneyfied.
Oh, by the way - 'Starling' is an abreviated version of the bird's full name - 'Starveling'... maybe second thoughts on that ? :)

[safewalrus]

Well said Bergalia, spoken like a man who will never reach 12 (pushed to reach the mental age of 5 let alone 12)!

[boltonprofiles]

Go for it Starling - and never let anyone take away your dream..............

[starling718]

Oh! The Beagle idea was kinda random. I think what avery had in mind was that it was based on the size. I agree with mashmat. I have a notebook full of deferent ideas for this project. I just need to sort them out along with the rest of my life............

[starling718]

Sorry! I meant I agree with maRshmat. I'm really distracted today.

[blared]

This kid reminds me of my youth.. hehe good old days.. good luck with the project. And watch out for rusty nails ;)

[trouty]

Distracted?

OK - whats her name? :D

Starling...quite a famous name about these parts among Fishermen.

Maybe you'll strive to achieve the same results as your namesake!

Try a google search young Starling, on Steve Starling, and see what you get! ;) You could do worse than to emulate his efforts methinks!

Galapagos Islands eh?

I believe the fishings good - if the goanna's don't eat you first!:D

Cheers!

[starling718]

Trouty, I AM a girl and who said the boat was going to be made of wood? Most kids in my class haven't even seen pictures of rainforests and why would I do something that takes up most of my time and what's more most of my life just because it was fashionable? All my life I've gone agenst the crowd and lived my own way. Heck, why would I be doing this if the rest of the world is doing it too? I like to make a defference by being defferent. I hate puplicity and fame and sometimes people! Some of my best friends are animals. Somepeople would "How thick can you get?", but to me animals are just people who happen to not be human. If you just listen you can know what they are saying. When I think about rainforests, I think about the trees and the animals who have lives and personalitys of their own. What would you say if animals tore down all our buildings and houses and grew rainforests in there place? People really are kind of pethetic when you sit down and think about it. Yes where smarter and have better tecnology, but we're also selfish and greedy too. We're letting people like the goverment run our lives and think for us? Now that's Thick!

[starling718]

My real name isn't starling it's Liz Scales. The funny thing about the name Starling is that we didn't know it had anything to do with fishing. Avery and I were looking for names in tree and bird books of hers and Starling sounded cool for a boat. Most of my family is from Newfoundland, Canada, but I live in New York City across the street from the Promanade that looks out on the East River which is kinda cool. My gradfather owns a boat, so we go fishing each year and my aunt lives on a lake and also owns a motar boat and a couple rowboats thats pretty much it, but I've been to the South Street Seaport a lot and they have tons of boats there. Even though we don't own a boat, my dad is obessted with them. He loves taking pictures of them when ever he can. He's an insurance lawer.

[Skippy]

starling718: Trouty, I AM a girl and who said the boat was going to be made of wood?

Yea guys, she's a GIRL! Waddaya thinka THAT? :eek: Liz, I was thinking about some ocean trips a while ago. It helps to figure where you want to go, the stops you'll make in between, what time of year it is, and what you'll do. The stops affect how long it takes, and the weather will depend on the season. Once you know how long you plan to be out, what kind of gear and cargo you want to bring along, what the conditions will be like, and of course who's going, then you can get an idea of what kind of boat you need. Don't worry about trouty, he's a stinky old ogre who lives under a bridge and likes to throw people off of it into the river below. :p If you're going to build a boat yourself, wood is an excellent material, and any other material will use up natural resources anyway. At least the wood grows back. It's strong and lightweight, and very easy to work. But find out about reefs and shoals where you're going, because grounding a boat is very dangerous! :(

[marshmat]

Trouty, I AM a girl and who said the boat was going to be made of wood? Most kids in my class haven't even seen pictures of rainforests and why would I do something that takes up most of my time and what's more most of my life just because it was fashionable? All my life I've gone agenst the crowd and lived my own way. Heck, why would I be doing this if the rest of the world is doing it too? I like to make a defference by being defferent. I hate puplicity and fame and sometimes people! Some of my best friends are animals. Somepeople would "How thick can you get?", but to me animals are just people who happen to not be human. If you just listen you can know what they are saying. When I think about rainforests, I think about the trees and the animals who have lives and personalitys of their own. What would you say if animals tore down all our buildings and houses and grew rainforests in there place? People really are kind of pethetic when you sit down and think about it. Yes where smarter and have better tecnology, but we're also selfish and greedy too. We're letting people like the goverment run our lives and think for us? Now that's Thick!
Amen to that. We could use more people who think like you, Liz. There is so little respect for the environment these days, so little thought put in to the consequences of our actions. It's refreshing to see someone taking an honest look at the problems inherent in modern money-driven culture.
I'll be back later with more on the boat....
(PS- Don't mind Trouty, he's like that with everybody ;) )

[Bergalia]

who said the boat was going to be made of wood?

Liz, there is only one material for building boats - despite what these other forum members say - and that's timber.
Did Noah choose fibreglass for is Ark? Nuff said.
:D

[starling718]

I guess...... But we have about 5-10 years to think about that.:p And I agree. Trouty is a git.:rolleyes: "Nuff said":D

PS: sorry Trouty, but you kinda got on my nerves.

[starling718]

I think we figured some of that stuff out so far, Skippy, but we have time to think about all of that. We're thinking about taking off near the ST. Larwrance Seaway (yet agian, I have no clue how to spell anything.) and start off by going somewhere in the Carabeabin(absolutly no skill in spelling-that's me). Were not really sure about what kind of boat we'll need. Avery thinks some kind of small yaht. She's extreamly smart. She'll figure that part out while I reserch and start planing our course. We're all reserching this together. This Summer, I'll be spending about 3 weeks with Avery in a summer camp in Maine and at least a month with my grandparents who are taking me to Canada and to see my Aunt Ma on the lake. She owns a couple boats, so I'm pretty sure she'll let me row around the lake in one of them. Last time I mentioned boats in front of my mom, she said I hated boats. How clueless can you be? I know my dad knows about all this, but he's probubly forgoten by now.........

[Bergalia]

Come now Starling -
Mustn't be rude to Trouty. He's only teasing you - and gently too. And remember Trouty is from Oz that great sea-going nation which gave birth to such naval heroes as...........well.......errrr.......errrr.......Well, he's from a young nation anyway. Give them a chance and one day they'll discover how to sail. At the moment they are concentrating on swimming....:D

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=starling718](yet agian, I have no clue how to spell anything.) and start off by going somewhere in the Carabeabin(absolutly no skill in spelling-that's me). QUOTE]

Sailors don't need to know spelling. But navigation is essential. Take your old Uncle Walrus for instance. Can't spell for bananas - but he's been around the globe a few times (even though he was only trying to park his car...) :D

[Tim B]

Thank you Bergalia, for another brilliant injection of comedy.

Personally, I'll all for this project. It's a great idea, and I just hope that Liz doesn't get distracted during her teenage years. It's one of those projects you'll have to dedicate a fair part of your life to.

Good Luck,

Tim B.

[trouty]

She's a feisty little one, aint she? :D ;)

Liz - you speak to me just like my own daughter does - I think we'd get on just great!. I admire your spunk! (can we say that? - in my day it was a compliment!).

Hey - I really made you think - didn't I?...which is WHY I got on your nerves!!. Be honest - did you learn anything?

If you did - my mission was accomplished! :)

Hey, you know those starlings your on about - well they are a native bird to the Eastern states of Aus...but Not out west where I am...out here they are a potential pest to horticultural crops...and other native birds (competition for food and nesting sites) so - out at the West Oz border on the nullabore plane (null = Nil, Arbore = tree, hence a great big flat plane with no trees) they have a group of men 24/7 with shotguns whos job it is to shoot any starlings that try to fly out west for a little holiday (I kid you not - I was a wildlife officer - I know this stuff!).

You know that nullabore plain is 1000 miles across....and the road is dead straight for the whole 1000 miles - not one bend...and you know whats out there?

Yep - miles n miles n miles n miles n miles a bloody nuthin! :D :cool:

Famous sailors from downunder Bergalia? :rolleyes: Ben Lexen! (and the dude who steered our yacht that beat dennis the menace connors!).

Jeeze - ya sure did make me laugh tho! :D

Whos the famous sailor from your neck a th woods again? (Yeah Tony Bullimore!):p ;)

So - I reckon - that this lil Starlin' is about the brightest button I've ever seen in about a gazillion years...how'd ya be with a class of 30 of em all like her! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Yup yup yup - she's priceless..

I hope you design and build boats Liz, I aim to come back reincarnated as one a ya kids in 20 years time and drive ya nuts for a lifetime!!! :D :D ;)

Tell you what tho - have you ever considered writing for a living - you have a knack for it - a real talent - I'd wager you could make a living at it, and I'm not joking when I say that - you are very talented for a 12 year old. (And I've been published nationally a few times before now so I'm quaified to say that!).

Ya see Liz - I have an excuse for being the way I am, I write like this thru a very unfortunate mistake at birth...the doctor accidentally vaccinated me with a grammaphone needle and I haven't shut up much since!:D :D

Last thing you wanna do is use my gramma on your teachers - likely they will have a blue fit!;)

Me - I can talk (write like a yokel) anytime the mood takes me- but i can also speak (and write) proper when the occasion calls for it!

Whereas - at the age of 12 they don't let you have fun like this ('cept for text messages....my 3 darn kids all twiddle away for hours on their mobiles texting the most inane stuff but don't get me started on that!)...

So - you aren't allowed to use the rotten grammar and spelling and punch-you-asians....er punctuation - you see us old fellas here using - you can by all means take the ideas and use em for projects and homework n stuff for school, but for goodness sakes don't copy our spellin and grandmah - er gramma er grammer...unless you wanna fail english (or american as the case may be).. ;)

Winks as good as a nod to a blind man on a galloping horse!

"I see, I see" - it all comes back to me now!", said the blind man - to the deaf fellow...as he pee'd into the wind!

So lizzy - you actualy seen the humungous big goanna / lizard thingys (monitors) that live at the Galapagos islands? Ya can't even swim to get away from em, coz they swim like eels and they eat people!.

I still reckon it'll be a blast trip...if I'm still alive, - can I come too - you might need a good wildlife officer along to sacrifice to the lizzard thingys...:D

Hey - the fact you mention a boat named starling is very very spooky...

(The guy I told you to look up- names Steve Starling is fammous in books and TV and he's a mate of mine - but thats not the spoooky bit!).

When I was a kid - well about 16 years old so not much older than you - I was right into scuba diving. One day while diving, I discovered a wrecked ship..so I collected afew timber ribs and after the holiday - my dad took me into our martime museum.

I explained where I'd found this wreck - and the guy there looked up his records (computers weren't invented in those days)...and he proudly identified for the the boat that had sunk (in 1914) as the Grey Starling!!!!

Yes - for years I told people all about this boat named the Grey Starling that I'd found!!

Then one day when I was much much much older, I searched the computer records of the maritime museum...for a sunken boat in 1914 called the Grey Starling!

Well all those years ago when we went to the Museum and the man identified the wreck for me - I musta had either water still in my ears (or likely ear wax) because I must heard him wrong -- it was REALLY called the "Grace Darling"! (Go figure!)..

Most a my life i thought it was Grey Starling...and all along - it was the Grace Darling!

Truthfully he kinda spoke funny with is teeth out..well he had teeth like the 10 commandements anyway - all broken!

Sadly it was no treasure laden ship (like many of the wrecked ducth east indiamen littered along our shoreline here on the wets coast of Oz). Yes this grand lady of the sea was full of Bat Droppings (Guano) used as fertiliser on grain farms...being transported down our coast from where the Chinese used to mine it on the Houtman Abrolhos Islands!

Pretty dumb story Liz I know - but you mentioning starling got me started remembering days of my youth!

You could always google search "Grace Darling Shipwreck Australia" and see if what I say is true or not!

Hmmm

Grace Darling. Steel steamer, 622 tons. Built at Hardenfveld, Holland, 1905. Lbd 175 x 27 x 12.8 ft. Scuttled in the North arm graveyard, Port of Adelaide. Register closed in 1931. [LH] ...couldn't a been that one - built AFTER the one I found sank - too young!

Here we go

http://oceans1.customer.netspace.net.au/wa-wrecks.html

Grace Darling. Schooner, 82 tons. Built 1869 Lbd 83.2 x 20.3 x 8.1 ft. Wrecked off Edward Island, WA, 3 February 1915. [LW]
Also listed:
Grace Darling. Involved in rescue - see steamer Rodondo, lost WA, 1894. [LAH]

hmm - not too accurate me thinks!

How bout this!

http://www.voc.iinet.net.au/lpcoast.html

Grace Darling - 1914

The Grace Darling was a wooden two-masted schooner built in Hobart, Tasmania in 1869. The 83-tonne vvessel was wrecked in February 1914 while on a voyage from the Abrolhos Islands to Fremantle with a cargo of 1,000 bags of guano. The crew of six were saved.
The wreck site is about one kilometre north of Lancelin Island and 800 metres from shore, on a line of reefs close to the entrance of the Lancelin fishing boat anchorage. Wreckage lies on the reef and in sand holes, varying in depth from three to six metres. The hull is not intact but a large section of the bottom, with ribs and planking can be seen.

Thats a more accurate description - because thats actually where I found her - the year...(1959 + 16 = 1977!)

There ya go Liz! History in the making!

Cheers & beers, big ears!! :)

[safewalrus]

Heavens to lawdy trouty you do go on! Guess that happens when you gets really old! ... or are you just practising!

Anyways Liz as you said you've got five to ten years to get ready for this great adventure and I reakon you'll need every minute of it - it's quite a huge undertaking your going for! Guess you will make it, you've got the right idea, but in the process remember to have some fun on the way! There's still some wonderful things to do out in this bad old world for someone of your age before you get too serious despite all the bad things silly old sod's like Bergalia and trouty and me (especially me!) tell you. You just got to be a little careful is all! more later:p

Just one minor thing; took some time before you admitted you were a girl (after yor first post I put mine in saying "well done lads" or some such!) what's wrong with being a girl? presuming you are of course! Sorry just a thought (grouchy untrustworthy old bugger) :idea:

the Walrus

[starling718]

I forgot to mention that I was a girl in the first post and thought I did:rolleyes: . But last time I looked, Liz was a girl's name. Yep a lotta people call me spunky:D . I don't use IM language much. Sometimes I'd talk to my friends online and I can't understand a darn word the're saying:rolleyes: . Yep, Trouty got me thinking, I was just in a bad mood. It supprising how many kids don't even have brains. This is something that happened on the first day of school:

Teacher: Ok. You have to write a page and a half for homework.

Other kid: Liz, do we have any writing homework?

Me: What an amazing concept!

Other kid: What's a concept?:p

How thick can you get? The same kid once asked my friend ,Aaron, in science if pollution is bad! He repied with "Ya Think?!":) . I do a lot of writing these days. In literacy class, my theacher, Lis(yes. she spells it with an "s".), was give another one of those "how to have a good conversation":rolleyes: lectures, so I sat there and made anther attempt on writing a book. I kept trying with defferent plots and the one I started writing worked perfectly. The way I got the plot was by posting on an online roleplay forum. It was a good story my friends and I started up, but they all left because I was practicly wrting a novel when I was supposted to be writing how my charter was reacting in the scene. It was pretty funny. I'll post it once I'm done with the first chapter.:D

[trouty]

I wish I could take all the 12 year old kids from New York, for a walk in the rainforest and just show em stuff about the trees and plants and animals...maybe show them a trout swimming in a stream and such.

I have no doubt theres some really cool things in such a big city as New York for kids to do...and if the movies are anything to judge by maybe its a dangerous place at some times too...

But - I think it's sad that kids from anywhere in the world - can't just have the freedom (at your age) to run thru the forest and be carefree, sucking in all the pure fresh oxygen those forest giants pump out from their leaves - deep down into your lungs - it's about the biggest "high" you can experience (without chemicals like drugs), which is good for you and still legal in todayts world.

All kids should be able to roam free and imagine things with their fertile minds.

Now - I reckon you have a pretty active imagination hey?;)

You know - it seems like only yesterday (and I'm not really THAT old yet), that some clever dude invented the pocket calculator, (i was ~ 15years old and in yr 10, I think), and I reckoned at the time - it was pretty clever, a neat to have gadget if you like - but never eally thought it would lead to what we see today where I can communicate in real time with a bright 12 year old from New York..what a wonderful world technology is giving us!

Now I reckon in as far as you having a writing career - that soon (if not already) we will have voice recognition computers that can type everything we say - just by talking to it.

When that happens - imagine how easey it will be to be a writer?..

Cheers!

[Bergalia]

I wish I could take all the 12 year old kids from New York, for a walk in the rainforest and just show em stuff about the trees and plants and animals...maybe show them a trout swimming in a stream and such.

Now I reckon in as far as you having a writing career - that soon (if not already) we will have voice recognition computers that can type everything we say - just by talking to it.

When that happens - imagine how easey it will be to be a writer?..

Cheers!

Gold star Trouty, for the rain forest reference. Too few out there realise that we have rain forests in Australia (just bloody desert, the Opera House and Ayers Rock...Ooooppps Ulhuru...) But you've got to be quick - otherwise Gunns of Tasmania will have coverted it all to woodchips (Aus$10 a ton to Japan - to be re-imported as "chip board"at $1,000 a ton...)
To walk through a rainforest, and we have them here in New South Wales... well it beats watching "Big Brother" or "Ïdol" any day.

But as to voice recognition computers (Mac have them already, by the way, have had for a couple of years at least) making the job of writers easy...
It's just a machine, Trouty, It lacks imagination - that's what writers need. Luckily it sounds as though young Liz already has it.
And if Liz is looking in... I once served aboard a ship with a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) whose given name was Shirley...:(

[starling718]

:) I agree. It's not the stupid computer that's smart, it's the people who made it smart:rolleyes: . Putting together all those little tiny wires and making them fit perfectly, so the computer will work the way it's supposed to work. And sometimes REALLY bad things happen to people who let their computers think for them. One 14 year old was murdered because she gave all her personal info to a loony who she never met:eek: . Even though I doutb very highly that you'll find many fruitcakes like that on a boat design chatroom, but who said there never will be? It's scary out there, but you just have to know how to deal with it. My parents don't put all those pointless parental controls on my comuter because they know I'm not stupid enough to give away all my personal info or do anything like that:rolleyes: . I don't even use a computer for writng projects anyway. I have a notebook.:D

[safewalrus]

Machines are good things as long as; people remember that is all they are machines to help us do things! As long as we use machines to help us we have no problems (and lets face it despite the stories machines can't do things unless people TELL them to!):cool:

And power to you Liz that can already differentiate between these things, not only that your doing something about it! :cool: But please remember that a computer is a good word processor and is nice and quick for copying up the stuff after you've written it down, using your imagination (which is the most important part of being human)! :) Another good point of being human is the fact that you don't breakdown after a good soaking - try that with either a computer or a notebook (or at times a 'boy', if there's soap in the water - come on guys you remember that don't you [being Scots Bergalia has an exemption from washing anyway something to do with the blue dye ain't it BraveHeart]!:D

Hey Bergalia some of the matelots these days are indeed Christened Shirley because they are entitled to be wierd I tell 'ee weird!

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=safewalrus](or at times a 'boy', if there's soap in the water - come on guys you remember that don't you [being Scots Bergalia has an exemption from washing anyway something to do with the blue dye ain't it BraveHeart]!:D QUOTE]

Braveheart again. Can we true Scots never shake free of that lump of Hollywood hokum :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Willie Wallace played by a New Zealand born Äussie" actor....Still I suppose it was revenge for the time Mick Jagger appeared as Ned Kelly on screen...:D
Howsomever... twas reference to your libel that Scots seldom wash...as it was awsomely remarked of your good Queen Bess: "She bathes once a year, whether necessary or not..."
And I still reckon bareing a blue bum is healthier than carrying a dead albatros around your neck....:D
Starling - avoid all weirdies on the web...just look what's happened to me...conversing with people like Walrus, Bolton, BillyDoc, Vega et al....:(

[longliner45]

Dream big. question authority , have respect for all living things,and most of all never ever let someone else tell you ,you cant do it,(you can do anything you set your mind to!!!!!!!!!!!!!Longliner

[trouty]

you see someone young like Liz here, full of dreams and imagination - and it almost makes me believe there is hope for the world afterall!

I hope you never give up on your dream to sail to the Galapagos, Liz with all your friends.

We have a lad a LOT like yourself (a free spirit, full of imagination, and courage and dreams...) downunder.

Heck whats his name, the 16 year old Ozy kid that sailed solo round the world...was it Jon Sanders?..no I think he sponsored and helped the kid - what was his name again? Tis a nuisance getting old and forgetting stuff!

Anyway Liz - the point is - with enough help and encouragement, and dreams and imagination - if you work hard and stay focused - you can achieve ANYTHING in this world - you want in your lifetime!.

Heck - I'd like to see you as the first woman president of America! Sadly I think Hillary Clinton may beat you too it sooner than we would like..

But - think of this (coz I'm telling you about it long before it happens or anyone else has thought of it!). I reckon (believe) that after Shrub (Thats G Dubya.. a shrub is a small bush...:rolleyes: ) - has finnished ruining your country and Hillary Clinton has finnished it off...

I believe that America will one day be great again...

Only I believe that America will have 5 presidents - each representing about 10 states! (I think this must happen to stop the occurrrence of one madman ever gaining control of the worlds most powerful nation ever again).

A panel of 5 presidents, would each have to vote on issues so there could not be a deadlock..

5 presidents could each be in different places at the same time so not so vulnerable to attack etc etc, there are so many GOOD reasons for it- that it must happen!.

Someone who came back from the future said it does happen...2014 rings a bell..

Anyway Liz - I would vote for you as one of the 5 Presidents because, I think your country will need someone with your visions and dreams and imagination in it's future!.

Good luck president in waiting Liz!

Another (secret) thing almost no one knows young Liz.....that can help you achieve great things in your life....

Your mind works like this..

Your concious mind - you know about because you use it every day..
BUT - your sub conscious mind - also works away quietly in the background every day too and IT takes orders from your conscious mind.. but - you know what?

It doesn't know right from wrong nor the possible from the impossible..it just doesn't know these things, but it MAKES THINGS HAPPEN based on what your conscious mind tells it (good things or bad things).

Heres the secret..to controlling your subconscious mind and making only good things (great things, or miracles even if God is wtith you - and he/she's in your superconscious mind - but your a bit young for that yet) happen to you..

Your subconscious mind ONLY gets it's information (like instructions being programmed into a computer) from what it HEARS with your EARS come out of your own MOUTH!!!

If you remember NOTHING else in your whole life remember that!

Thats right - what YOU SAY with your own mouth - is what your sub conscious mind sets to work making happen in real life for you and it doesn't know good from bad or right from wrong sooooooo..

Its VERY VERY important to ONLY say good things / positive things out of your own mouth - your subconscious mind for example doesn't KNOW the difference between sarcasm and reality or when your just joking or didn't really mean it - your subconscious mind doesnt know the difference...it just does what it is told!

So - if you want to be the first (or 2nd maybe) lady president of the USA (After Hillary), then you have to be very carefull what your ears hear come out of your own mouth, and only say good/positive things for yourself and to others about yourself and others...and I truly believe that one day - I will tell people (when I'm about 100) that I knew the first lady president of the United States of America, Lady LIZ when she was only 12 and wanted to sail to the Galapagos islands with her friends!.

And you will be able to tell the world - that some crazy trout dude from Australia told you a "secret to your success" on the internet boat design forum that made you great, when you were just 12 years old and he believed in you!!

Cheers to you Liz!

[safewalrus]

Poor old Trouty, tis sad when you get that old and lose your marbles!!

So how old are ye Trouty? 46? or three days Older than God (take your pick which one they're all pretty old, even the new ones like Elvis!)

Still the Old CAN produce some wisdom, when they are not taking the wee wee or being sarcastic eh? Bergalia - Cup Bearer to William Wallace scourge of Spiders (or was that Bob the Bruce?) Both lost to the English in the END! Remember that! :D :D :D

As did that prancing Frenchman Charles - but I won't be sayin' too much about them, I could but won't............. at this stage!)

[boltonprofiles]

Walrus - you may have beaten our bodies but you will never take away our spirit.........FREEEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..............

[safewalrus]

Nor will we take your whisky, ye can't even spell it right anybody knows true whiskey is epelt with an 'e' or two! In keeping with modern European standards of course - got to have little 'e' numbers everywhere ain't we?

[starling718]

My family is voting for Hillary. We believe in her. I agree our president is pretty stupid.

[Bergalia]

My family is voting for Hillary. We believe in her. I agree our president is pretty stupid.

Ah...so you can have a president who is both pretty, and stupid....:mad:

[safewalrus]

Theres a song about that ain't there.....

"Some guys have all the luck,"

is the line I remember best!

Trouble is young Starling you'll find that once they've been in power for a short while they tend to become rotten - goes with the 'terror - ity'. US of A has started the sensible route by insisting you can only be top dog for two terms, which is at least a start!:o

[gonzo]

Build a model of your project boat. It will give you a good idea of the final look and also of the building schedule. That is, in which order things get built. The skills you learn work in full scale. For example, lofting, mold making and joinery. That is how I became a boat builder, my dad was a ship modeler. Later I apprenticed at a boatyard.

[starling718]

Hillary's not stupid. Well, she's better than Bush.

[gonzo]

I am sorry that some idiots are turning your thread into one more collection of political idiocy. I hope that you can find enough information to get you started. It may be that you'll be forced to begin a new thread. Feel free to email me if you need any help.
Good luck

[safewalrus]

Never said Mrs. Clinton was stupid, she's certainly not that! :eek: If anybody can get America sorted out at the moment it's her! But she can(and I don't think this will happen, she's seen it already,remember. And hopefully learned from it) and if she's not careful, will be corrupted like the rest of 'em!:rolleyes:

Now to keep Gonzo sweet (he kinda gets worked up about the wrong politics, it's what comes of being related to a 'muppet' [a turkey at that!]) Say something nice about boats - Unfortunately as yoy are aware politics rules and shapes our entire lives both now and the future so a good grounding in the basics is well worth having! The trick is to be able to absorb it all, form your own opinion and stick by it! At times not that easy!;)

[starling718]

Yeah, I talk about politics a lot. This is what happened in my class last year:

Teacher: So, Ike what are you going to be for halloween?
Ike(student): Oh, I donno. Maybe Bush in a dunce cap.

And he acually WAS bush for halloween, and yes with a dunce cap. This year he was Donnald Rumfeld(No idea how to spell it).

[safewalrus]

Trouble is bush don't wear the cap just for halloween! and old Donald don't know how to spell it either (that's a heck of a problem when you can't spell your own name!) Poor old Bergalia has this problem all the time, he tells me!

[trouty]

But "president material"???? :confused: :confused:

Has everyone forgotten whitewater?

Whattabout the China white imported into calif by her n him?

C'mon people, you deserve better than that!

Maybe if the bad guys hadn't shot JJ's plane down over martha's vineyard - you'd a got yaself another peoples president.

I'd say your about long overdue for one by now!

For my money - Young Liz here has all the makings!

I'd contribute to her campaign fund and be proud to wear a button said "vote Liz!"

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Given time Trouty, given time and we're all behind you, but first young Liz has got to get out and enjoy herself a little bit, travel a bit and generally have fun, then she can settle down and sort 'em out!:cool:

hey did you to be President of the Greatest Country in the World (not bad for a former colony eh :cool: ) you have to be "mature"!

Well OK looking at what they've had lately, just a little bit, er "grown-up":confused:

er look out Liz they'll be sending for you sooner than you think!:D

[gonzo]

If you guys don't quit I'll go dump some tea in the ocean.

[trouty]

Just don't go to Boston to do it - theres a good fellow!:D ;)

I wonder who will do the Paul Revier(sp?) ride in 2006??

http://www.rense.com/general69/21.htm

What next? :rolleyes:

Cheers!

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=trouty]I wonder who will do the Paul Revier(sp?) ride in 2006??

What next? :rolleyes:
QUOTE]

It makes some sense of Bush jnr's policy of invading sovereign states: Leibensraum I believe Hitler called it.... (bugger, politics out of the bag again - perhaps a tea bag...) :D

[safewalrus]

Heard you guys can't do that anymore, need all the reject (we don't let you have anyother kind - no taste) tea you can get to make Coke out of, specially now you've removed the cocaine!

Not a lot of people know that!:rolleyes:

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=safewalrus....... specially now you've removed the cocaine!

rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Damn, wondered by I wasn't getting the same buzz by sniffing Coca these days....:mad:

[trouty]

sniffing Coca
sniff sniff...

'snifter weather'?

"snot if it keeps up!" :D

Damn, this kid will learn bad stuff with us old codgers around!:rolleyes:

Her mothers probably reeling in disgust by now- likely she will call the PC (politically correct) police oon us soon!:rolleyes:

Hey - maybe her moms a Hilliary supporter? :?:

Hillary....ya hafta admit - she is hot tho..am I right? :)

Heck I'd vote for her - Whitewater scandal or no - whats a little China white cocain between friends afterall!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hmm - maybe your too young to KNOW what a bunch a crooks ALL politicians are young Lizz!

Best you concentrate on the boat building and sailing to the Galapagos - wouldn't want to see these crooked politicians messing with your young mind!
You'll have plenty a time for that when you get old and cynical like the rest of us! ;)

Cheers!

[Tim B]

This thread it seems has descended into politics. Which is a shame, really, because I'm of the view that politics and boating shouldn't go together. At all. Ever. Especially not on a forum.

Anyway, back to the boating question....

It occurred to me the other day, that an aluminium boat might a good thing to look at. After all, it doesn't have any particular effect on the rainforest itself.

Just a thought,

Tim B.

[safewalrus]

OK who said it ? ? ? :confused:

"Tim, Tim, nice but dim":P

'cause it political, don't you read noffin':D

[Bergalia]

It occurred to me the other day, that an aluminium boat might a good thing to look at. After all, it doesn't have any particular effect on the rainforest itself. Just a thought,Tim B.

I trust Tim B is displaying a rare and cynical sense of humour with this claim.
As Tim B knows - or should as a "Marine Design" person (unless he styles Action Man toys) the production of aluminium is one of the most environmentally destructive materials yet devised by industry. From the mining of bauxite (which leaves a landscape scoured of all botanical life) to the high usage of electricity in the smelting process (generated by burning coal, or daming rivers for hydro-power) which drowns forests, disrupting human communities, and wildlife often to the point of extinction...

"doesn't have any particular effect on the rainforest..." very droll Tim B, very droll....:mad:

[Tim B]

Well, actually, it is ONLY the mining of bauxite that is damaging. The Icelandic people have been using electricity from geo-thermal sources to convert bauxite to aluminium for some time (almost free and pretty clean). Of course, if it wasn't from Iceland then there might be a problem as the rest of the world thinks that burning fossil fuels is acceptable.

Anyway, this is on the verge of getting political, so I'll let someone talk about boats now,

Tim B.

[Bergalia]

Oh, sorry, Tim B. My mistake, I thought you were suggesting that aluminium boats did little harm to forests.
Very little Icelandic aluminium available on the market by the way (0000.500) of world's production. Might make a set of spoons for rest of world.
Or am I being political again....:rolleyes:

[safewalrus]

Actually aluminium boats can make quite a dent in the tropical forest! Your lumberjack and his mates get into an aliminium boat to get up river with their gasoline chainsaws which not only makes big holes in the forest but also chokes the **** outa whats left! including the loggers (but they are no loss!)!:P

Or is this also political:?:

[boltonprofiles]

In fairness to Tim B lads, at least the bauxite mining operations are part of a major rehabilitation environment programme which at least will help towards putting things right after the event. I agree that it is in the first place a destructive mining operation, as any mining is, but it is a world sustainable resource at present levels for the forseeable future (50 yrs or so) and I suppose no matter what materials we use it will affect us in the long term anyway.
I have used quite a bit of Aluminium in the Construction Industry and some Architects specified it for the ecological advantages.
I view Aluminium in a different way - mainly recyclability and in moving vehicles less power over weight required to ultimately save on fuels be it on land, air or water.
For me the recyling element on land for structures may not be of benefit today and immediately apparent, but certainly for years to come in the future.
Of course a similar argument can be fought for the other materials as well so really I don't think it matters what we use.
Anyway, just wanted to add my tuppence worth......(that's about 1/4 of a farthing to Bergalia and Walrus)

[safewalrus]

Gawd Bergalia these children do get wrong don't they? always thought tuppence was half a groat, and as ye know there's 16 farthings in a groat and 1008 in a guinea! That'll f*** 'im :rolleyes:

[trouty]

Anyway, just wanted to add my tuppence worth......(that's about 1/4 of a farthing to Bergalia and Walrus)

Indeed - tuppence is actually two pence or two pennys,
which is one penny short of a thripence, which is half a sixpence, which is half a bob (OK shilling :rolleyes: ), which is half a Florin, which is half a half crown?..which is half a crown which is...half a pound which is.. something of a gold soverign, sheesh, I've confuzzeled me meself now!, and below a penny, was a halfpenny, and below that was a farthing, and below that was a half farthing....

You know I actually have a 'tuppence' (two penny bit) from I think ~ 1896 somewheres hereaboouts - reckon theres enough copper in it...to make a wire that'd reach from London to new york and back again - tis HUGE and heavey!

3 of them (sixpence) would be enough to yank your trousers down if placed in a pocket! :D

Amazing what inflation has done to the coinage of the realm! :(

So what was a guilder? (oops guinnea?)

Hmm I was one of those poor sods born in the age of pounds shillings and pence, pounds and ounces (or grains if talking gun powder...or troy ounces & Carrots if talking gold and karrats(sp?) if Talking diamonds) PSI for pressures, pints and english gallons etc etc - and dang me if they didn't change all the rules when I was just 7, (1966) and I had to learn metric!:rolleyes:

Is it any wonder I grew up confused!

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Trouty you young stripling you, a guilder was something to do with the Nertherlands (the guys who kept chucking ships onto the northern end of the west Australian beach) but a 'guinea' my friend was a strange coin worth 21 shillings or one pound sterling and one shilling as apposed to a 'soverign' which was worth one pound or 20 shillings! so a 'half soverign' was worth ??:p

As apart from Britains first attempt at metrication the 'florin' worth two shillings or one tenth of a pound!! A 'crown' was supposed to be worth 5 shillings thus a 'half crown' was worth two shillings and sixpence! Cause the old silver 'threepence' was a small coin worth threepence but looked nothing like the newer 'thr'penny bit' which was made of a brass alloy with several (something like twelve springs to mind) sides not unlike the present oz. dollar but smaller of cause!

aparantally the main reason for changing was that the youngsters under seven (7) had difficulty learning it, it was also a good way to con us out of extra tax! Not only that we could now entice foreigners into the country and remove their cash from their hands - before this they avoided landing as things were a little to complicated for them, the poor little darlings get confused easily!:P

[Bergalia]

Point is trouty - if metric was really meant to be a valid measurement - how come Jesus chose twelve disciples and not ten.......:confused:

[safewalrus]

Ah! Bergalia your Wee Free upbringing is showing- there's several answers to that one all of which would bring instant jihad against the teller of such tales (moi!):rolleyes:

[boltonprofiles]

Hey Walrus - what has half a goat got to do with it - mind you I am just a kid.............

[SamSam]

Well, actually, it is ONLY the mining of bauxite that is damaging. The Icelandic people have been using electricity from geo-thermal sources to convert bauxite to aluminium for some time (almost free and pretty clean). Of course, if it wasn't from Iceland then there might be a problem as the rest of the world thinks that burning fossil fuels is acceptable.

Anyway, this is on the verge of getting political, so I'll let someone talk about boats now,

Tim B.
In 1968 4 of us jumped on a Great Northern freight train in Minneapolis and went to Seattle, it pretty much parrelels Hiway #2. Somewhere in the mountains in the middle of nowhere an Annaconda Aluminum smelter appeared. The whole mountain side downwind of the place was dead. Miles of dead trees. Not burned, just dead from the smoke from the smelter. I would hope those kind of places have cleaned up their act, even so it's hard to imagine scrubbing that much junk out of the process. Maybe that's why Iceland has no trees.:rolleyes: Sam

[safewalrus]

So that's why goat tastes so bad to much bauxite in the gravy!

[Mudnut]

Hay,Im only new here but lighten up!!!First up TimB is right,ya wont politics theres a place called the BILGE,second up ya really raining on Liz's parade.I dont see too many yougnens ventureing into "supposedly"adult forums with the gusto that her and her friends have,and as far as ya stupid sexual inuendos "Trouty"Not a nice way for a father to exspress himself on such a young person,IS IT,And another thing while Im on it,those man eating lizards ya been waffling on about are KAMODO DRAGONS they only live on one Island in Indonesia,not on the Galapagos Island's,but then again Liz has put ya in ya place once,why do it again!And Liz,if ya still reading this thread sometimes ya have to read between the lines to understand what some adults say to get their meaning.We are not all weired like Trouty and most of us like to come straight to the point.You stick with your dreams,by the way,the young Australian sailor that circumnavigated the world was Jesse Martin,he was only 18,his boat was named Lion-heart and a befitting name it was.Fair winds to ya dream and may ya have full sails.Mudnut

[Skippy]

Mudnut:
First up TimB is right,ya wont politics theres a place called the BILGE,second up ya really raining on Liz's parade.
as far as ya stupid sexual inuendos "Trouty"Not a nice way for a father to exspress himself on such a young person,IS IT
We are not all weired like Trouty . . .

I second that. Highjacking a twelve-year-old kid's thread with politics and vulgarity. :rolleyes: :mad:

Mudnut: . . . the young Australian sailor that circumnavigated the world was Jesse Martin,he was only 18,his boat was named Lion-heart and a befitting name it was.
"Lionheart" is also the title of the excellent book Jesse wrote about his adventure. There's also a girl from New York named Tania Aebi who made a similar journey around the world at a slightly older age, although hers wasn't nonstop like Jesse's. She wrote a book called "Maiden Voyage" which was also good.

[safewalrus]

And mudnut whilst your on the subject of lightening up try it! Looks like your chucking lead bricks into an already heavy forum buddy!

[trouty]

Mudnut. :?: Queensland :?:

I seem to recall an excess of Rum in Queensland - something to do with all the sugar they grow and a big distillery in Bundaberg! :p

Never mind young Liz - they ain't the sharpest tools in the shed - our bretherin from Queensland....heck - most of never made it outta school...:rolleyes:

Not hard to prove either - the education standard so low - they ectually put 4 X's, Thus XXXX on their cans of beer - because..... you guessed it Liz,

They can't spell B E E R :D :p ;)

http://www.xxxx.com.au/

See - would I fib to a 12 Year old? :rolleyes:

Innuendo...about Hillarious Hilliary Clinton? he he he, - man get a grip - she is a POLITICIAN, that makes her "fair game" for any sarcasm I may delight in directing in her direction! :rolleyes:

Probably failed humor at school as well! ;)

I wouldn't worry too much 'bout mudnut, young Liz, probably only on day release from the padded room - they will no doubt put him back in his padded cell in a moment or so!, theres even a chance he's sporting some a them mutant genes, that escaped from Flo & Joe, caused no doubt by excess consumption of pumpkin scones! :P

Queensland? :rolleyes: ... nuf said! (Good place to stay away from by the look - heck might even be a few a Fletcher Christians Pitcairn Islander genes getting around in there too!). :D :D

Hows it go ...a week in Queensland, is a life sentence! ;)

Canecutters, Giant poisonus Toads, Rum, Beer, tropical heat, pumpkin scones... basically what we call "mangoe madness!" :rolleyes:

You know you need a separate passport to get across the border at Queensland - we use it to keep the likes of mudnut IN! :D :P

Cheers!

[Bergalia]

Just to endorse all that Trouty says about Queensland - mind you, us New South Walians have doubts about West Australia too......:D

[trouty]

Who said there was any fierce rivalry between the states down under!:D

Hey - he accused me of posting something with "innuendo"? to a 12 year ol girl from New York,...now I coulda got upppity and said something about his rugby team...but THAT would be below the belt!;) :p

Bergalia - I know it will give you a shudder - but we actually refer to the good folks from NSW (New South Wales) as "New South Welshmen"...which of course would likely make any REAL Welshman turn in his grave!:)

Them Queenslanders tho - are probably as close as we get to 'cuzzins' out here in the wild west - we have SOME affinity for them - coz - like us - they work hard & keep the rest of the country fiscally afloat!
Mind you the territorians - now THERES a weird bunch and of course we just don't speak about Tasmanians..:o

How on earth would a mooderator from te USA - ever understand a bunch a Aussies havin a chat - to him it must sound like an all in brawl - yet tis just our way of being right friendly!:D

If we ever do actually "go at it, hammer and tong" - theres no banter or words - it's just fisticuffs at 50 paces!;)

Sure is a big ol world out there - and in truth I'm not sure the rest of the world is quite ready for us yet! :confused:

Cheers!

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=trouty]...we actually refer to the good folks from NSW (New South Wales) as "New South Welshmen"...which of course would likely make any REAL Welshman turn in his grave!:) QUOTE]


Any Welshman in his grave would probably be too busy digging for coal - or forming choirs - to 'turn'.

It's the other poor Brits (even the English) who shudder at being thought 'Welsh'....:(

[Mudnut]

Trouty,there ya go again,at one stage ya thought Liz was a male till she told ya she was a female!Now ya done it again thinking I'm from QLD,now I understand the Trouty bit.Must be real easy to catch!!Now dont get ahead of me here,being born in Koagrah(Sydney)Mmm,let me see,yep! thats good old NSW,Damm only the second best state in oz to catch trout,1st place apparently we carn't talk about on account of their close family ties.Lived all over Australia,spent 32yrs travelling the best place on earth.Never could get over how some ozies actually think that people from other states were any less than themselves.Sport,couldn't care less except ozies against the rest of the world.Perth best city in oz,sh*t public transport but every place has it's downfall.Anyway, after reading thru a few of ya posts I can see the oz in ya and ya probably not a bad dude may be if ya read all ya posts to this thread ya might see the inuendo bit i was referring to but C'mon ya only a sand-groper,nothing bad or special there..

[safewalrus]

What I can't understand is with oz being so damnd good how come I'm working with so many when i go up to England to earn some money (the scoundrels won't let us have none over the border in Kernow, reackon we might get upty and demand independance (theres an idea nip down to the harbour and through some tea overboard, that'll upset them - whatya mean tha's already been done, by who?:rolleyes:

[Mudnut]

Don't worry,when the pound drops to it's real worth,we will be saying the same about you.What ya bitching about ,"Ya got a job havent ya?"I think that was the same "saying"when you buggers came out here for 10 pounds 55yrs ago!!Oh,to be back in the mother country

[safewalrus]

Mudout, way I hear it your looking for some more POMs to convert, we are having guys on recruiting drives round the country at the moment!

Guess you need em to replace all those who've finished their time and come back home, tho' what the Hell you'd want to come back here for has got me Kn*****d.

Life might be hard but at least it's hard in decent weather, we got the same problem without the weather, 'C'est la vie' or 'sh** happens' depending on your origins!

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=safewalrus]Mudout, way I hear it your looking for some more POMs to convert, we are having guys on recruiting drives round the country at the moment! QUOTE]

Gotta leap to defend my 'new' country, Walrus. Downunder (land of the long weekend) is a fabulous country with a laid-back life almost as relaxed as my native Highlands. The fly (in this case a grub) is the current government which when first elected slashed higher education courses and tripled the fees for those which werwe allowed to remain. Now a decade on Australia is desperate for those skills little Wanker Howard pared back - doctors, nurses, engineers, virtually all the sciences, teachers etc. He also frowns on the arts (probably because he doesn't understand it) which is why the rest of the world benefits from the best of Australian writers (myself being an exception) painters, musicians and etc.
A further point in Oz's favour is that we keep all the 'weirdoes' up in Queensland. So it's a form of segregation... but it keeps the rest of us safe...Isn't that right Mudnut...:D

[safewalrus]

To be fair to your 'new country' Bergalia mate my biggest bugbear is the fact that I'm NOT in it! Unfortunately for several reasons I never took up the chance when I had it! Most regrettable! And of course now I can't get there, they don't want old buggers no matter what they think they know! Still I can sit in the 'old colonial county' and take the wee wee which sorta makes it bearable (to quote or misquote a certain actor "the Hell it does")

[Mudnut]

Bergalia,the only thing on old Johny Howards head is bush POO,what was a country of oportunity is sadly going "stateside"If ya get my meaning,and along with it comes all the **** and dirty laundry with it,just look at coogie beach,those dudes back in england might think this place is great,but it's going downhill just like the rest of the world.So the weirdoes up here in Queensland arn't your real problem.It's the weirdoes that are not here that scare me...I feel safe with my segrgation

[Mudnut]

What the real problem is...Were on a planet,zillions of miles from nowhere,we are the dominant race and yet we confine ourselves,"The governments of the world"confines us!Stuff borders,stuff religion,We dont own the planet, we exist on it!Government and religion confine us as inderviduals,as groups and subject us to wars of political inportance and religious signifigance.Democracy under government control IS an oxymoron in its self.No wonder smart people want to go cruising on the pond!There is less Bullsh*t out there. Whats the real problem is ,"That seems to be the only escape from the crap" arn't we lucky!!!

[Bergalia]

'Oxymoron'...using a word like that Mudnut, it's obvious you don't belong in Queensland....:D

I take it that like me, you won't be celebrating ten glorious years of Howardism...A decade of lies, corruption, and ineptitude... (Oooppps politics creeping in there...)

Thing is Mud, I can call you Mud can I, don't fall into the trap of accepting the constant spin that as 'world leaders'we should treat them with deference. They are merely politicians. Malcontents, unemployable in any real trade, so they leech onto the public purse as parasites. One day hopefully the populace will wake up to the fact that all politicians are unnecessary.
They serve no useful purpose, and have inflicted themselves upon nations only to serve their own impoverished vanities.
I suggest we tar and feather the lot. Then the world would be a better place.:mad:

[safewalrus]

The frightening thing, O gentlemen of the Colonies, is that every bloody country on the planet (bar none) is afflicted with these creatures who instigate all sorts of unhappiness between peoples for their own selfish needs (primarly a mixture of greed and the desire to display the power they hold over us all)

Tar and feathers would be too mild a treatment to most of the buggers - some who would see 'tarring and feathering' as a means to indicate their popularity, you know the style

"The peasants must like me more than you, they used two coats of tar on me!" :P

[Mudnut]

Berg,I can call ya that carn't I,Ya can call me anything,but,late for breakfast!!And to the sad point,pollies,They deffinately have their hooks in.I only voted once in my 47yrs,who I voted for didn't get in and I realized then that it was all rigged.Carnt see the sense in voteing on who is going to screw ya next term.Hit me harder,Hit me softer,Ya still hitting me.Hey safewalrus,I guess on your scale,"No tar and just a feather up the bum" would indicate a low popularity with the peasents?

[safewalrus]

Hey 'Muddy' (whoa) now yoour down to my popularity level - trouble is i like running around 'neked'; well actually been so unpopular so long I'm used to it! - comes of being a full time POM I guess, and a Safety man to boot - if your going to be a **** be a complete ****! :rolleyes:

[Mudnut]

I was talking about "popularity of pollies",noy you!!Plain old english dosen't sound so plain after all did we get our wires mix or somthing?Its nightime over your way,are you mixing other things,maybe in a glass?It's 6.15AM over here and good old Aussies don't start drinking untill at least 7AM.Aaarh,45mins to go!!

[safewalrus]

English? now were have I heard of that language before - not in this town that's for sure! Now what's this about not drinking until the sun is over the yardarm, most aussies I know shift the yard to suit! It's amaseing how much use a yard is on the waterline ain't it! :rolleyes: :D

[Mudnut]

If ya drink enough at night,ya pissed when ya wake up,not drinking till 7AM just gives ya time to have breakfast befor ya start to "Top up"If ya allways drunk you will never have a hangover.

[safewalrus]

Mudnut you have discovered the secret of eternal life!

[gonzo]

Does any of you have any relevant advice for Liz? All you are doing is cluttering her thread with stupid garbage. Have some respect men.

[safewalrus]

It's all advice Gonzo, some good, some bad, some indifferent but still advice - you can learn a lot from reading this stuff! As much about what not to do as what to do! So lighten-up and remove your priests collar! Talk normal, act normal, be normal, she (and others) will obsorb the information and act accordingly.

[Skippy]

safewalrus: It's all advice Gonzo, some good, some bad, some indifferent . . .

and some vulgar. You've used the s--- word several times throughout this thread, sw. The rest I'd say tends mostly toward bad or indifferent.

[trouty]

young Liz like most 12 year olds has long since lost interest!

That or a galapagos lizzard ate her and her friends!:D ;)

Grown men acting like idiots around kids...

Yep - sounds normal to me!:D

Hey ease up, some of us are old enough to be in our second childhood!:o

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Some of us never left our first childhood eh Skippy!

[gonzo]

Trouty: Liz probably got tired of all this. It is a shame that grown men can't show respect and provide a good example. "Acting and talking normal" , in my life, includes good manners.

[trouty]

Why create a false belief in kids - like the Easter Bunny and so on?

Is the pleasure derived worth the suffering when they find out that the world they believe in, lied to them?

The world is fulla old pharts like us - and Liz is part a that world - best she gets used to it from the get go! Thattaway there are no dissapointments later on!

I believe we do the kids a disservice to let them grow up believing the world aint intrinsically bad - coz, otherwise they are prime bait for the less trustworthy in this world - best they grow up streetwise - no matter how much we might wish it was otherwise.

I've seen / experienced the pain - of believing in people - only to have that belief 'shattered' later in life - no one IMHO should have to undergoe that!

Best to grow up realising ALL people are intrinsically bad - some are just less bad than others!

Cheers!

[kach22i]

No way, you guys went off topic.......................never happens.:D

[safewalrus]

what topic?:rolleyes:

trouty mate your absolutly right bang on in fact!:D

[trouty]

Sheesh - now ya done gone went and confused me some!

I never realised there was a cogent / coherrant topic in the first place - I kinda figured young Liz just spat out whatever was foremost in her mind at that fleeting instant, and then, like most 12 year olds, moved on to mobile phones, space invaders, and then boy germs all in the next 15 seconds as kids are wont to do (which is whats so great about kids - they are too niaive to actually deliberately be intrinsically bad like grownups are - tis called the innocense of youth!).

Right Safewalrus?

Yes sadly so - the most painfull lesson ever of my life and the latest learned the hardest of ways!!:(

Everyone is bad until proven other wise and even then, your still suspect!;)

Like the little kid "izzy" - who's dad did him a favor....and stood him on the table, and aid - "dive izzy and I will catch you!".

Young Izzy being ever the careful type says - "Yes dad, but what if you miss?".

"Just trust me son - & I will catch you!".

So Izzy dives!

And dad takes two steps backwards as young izzy face plants the concrete! :rolleyes:

Izzy looks up - bewildered that his dad could be so cruel! :confused:

Dad says!

"Let that be a lesson to you in life young Izzy - never trust ANYONE - not even your old man!".

By being an adulterer and alcoholic - my old man tried hard to teach me that - but I refused to believe, preferring instead to believe my mother! :rolleyes:

27 years later with the mother of my 3 children flat on her back phukking her azzwipe bozz in seedly dirty motels for $16 a hour he stole from the public purse to pay her salary when she shoulda been at work, for her services, - I finally realized that she is just another mans whore and always will be! :rolleyes:

I shoulda listened to what my ol man tried so hard to teach me!! ;)

It wouldn't a hurt so bad if I had!

Cheers!

[kach22i]

27 years later with the mother of my 3 children flat on her back phukking her azzwipe bozz in seedly dirty motels for $16 a hour he stole from the public purse to pay her salary when she shoulda been at work, for her services, - I finally realized that she is just another mans whore and always will be! :rolleyes:

Things are tough in West Oz these days.:eek:

Trouty if any of this is true, write about it and make a million dollars - I'm on the edge of my seat. Much more interesting than my own boring life.:cool:

[daedong]

What an intellectual thread, I had to go back to the home page a few times just to make sure I was in a boat forum :D :D

[ber1023]

can you sail? you should have world class experience in sailing to try it. try sailing in 40 knts, its hard even for me

[safewalrus]

So what you want to sell?

[safewalrus]

Oh sailing not selling!! sounds the same to me! Windy!!


Actually I didn't realise anybody on here actually went sailing, it is after all only a BOATING forum, what's Boats got to do with it? do with it? do with it?

[confused]

I am new to this forum. I am 13 years old, I am about to build my first boat. I have the engine worked out, it's all pretty simple. I'm going to use a steam engine, or watever you want to call it. The engine is just a fire built in a firebox (2 coffee cans) heating a curled up pipe that has both it's ends sticking in the water. It works. If you don't believe me, get on youtube, look up pop-pop engine (stupid name, I know) and they have some videos of that exact type of engine powering a model boat. So the reason I chose this engine is because it is very simple, no moving parts, and if it can push a model boat, how come it can't push a full sized boat? (of course, the engine would have to be bigger than those model ones) My question is, Will my boat work? I currently live in Nevada, and I am going to wait until I move to Texas to build it. I have the ribs and spine of the boat designed, and even the whole hull of it, I just need to know more on boat building. I am going to make it out of wood, and I am having trouble on deciding how to shape the wood. I want to soak it in water, like one of my great uncles did, (that's what my dad told me he did anyway). Will it work? and also, how do I hold the wood in position so it drys into the shape I want it to? I was thinking about tying it with rope to hold it. (like a bow and arrow), I have a huge horse trough that I could use to soak the boards in. Please tell me if my ideas will work.

[kach22i]

They had one of those in the old Cub Scout book back in 1968, I never got to build one.

Is it too late?:)

[masalai]

confused, the best way to find out is a) to see if you can find evidence of it having been done before, and B) HAVE A GO YOURSELF..... some things scale up and some do not seem to....

[confused]

what do you mean?

[confused]

oh i see...

[confused]

thanks. I got the boat off the movie The Tenth Kingdom, (the one the guy named acorn stole)

[confused]

they called it a garbage barge... didn't look like a barge to me, looked like a dory kinda

[confused]

need any boat's designed? (80ft and under)

[confused]

I only have $230, so it would be a waste of money to build a boat that doesn't work, I guess I could fill the horse trough with water, let a sample board soak with water about a week, and see if I could wrap a rope around it so it drys into the position I want it to, if not, then I could try another method of holding it in position until it is dry.

[confused]

I will be using 1in by 4in by 8ft white wood boards in construction. is that a good choice? (they're at home depot)

[confused]

Oh, and starling 718, if you read this, I can design boats pretty good. I have designed about 10 boats in all, (and the one I want to build). I was born on an island. (Galveston Island, tx). I design stuff by hand. first I imagine it, then I draw a diagram of it on computer paper, then I draw a more complex diagram of the whole thing on graph paper. If I get something wrong, I erase, redraw, and when it meets my approval, I trace it over in ink so it is easier to see and can't be erased. I like the water too, that's why I want to build a boat, but not quite so big. The boat I want to build is 14ft by 4ft. Yes. go ahead and laugh. I can design your starling sailing ship, all I need to know is the dimensions. (height, width, & length).

[masalai]

Short posts will not accumulate credit for the number of posts, may I suggest you do an edit by C&P all your short comments and melding into one... then in your project learn as you go first try out the effectiveness of your "engine" which has very low efficiency levels but could be fun as an experiment using the horse trough as your inverse boat to see if it makes and useful thrust...

Be scientific about your efforts, work out some way to measure the thrust?

Then work out how to make a model boat to further test your ideas... The time and effort will be found to be valuably spent as you will learn a lot and not forget your errors....

[confused]

I have a good way of measuring thrust, I could have a wooden box of bricks floating in the horse trough, and the engine is on the box, I start the engine, and if it moves the crate of bricks, it would be like moving a boat (kind of). so I could keep adding more weight until it can't move it, then I could weigh the box of bricks. and what are you saying about the engine's effeciancy? it has absolutely NO moving parts, creating absolutely no friction, so no parts would have to be replaced. And on youtube, those engines move those boats pretty fast. I don't want my boat to go very fast. I'll bet it could run for at least 100 years straight, without stopping if there was someone to feed the fire. It might even be able to run longer than that! And like I said, I don't want to waste my money... How do I delete my messages?

[masalai]

C&P = Cut & Paste :D:D:D:D see how much weight the engine can lift (wont be much and you will need some string and free running pulleys suspended) and keep adding till the weight stops rising but remains steady and will go up or down with a little extra push on your engine.... Think it out.... and why that and not loading your boat ?

[confused]

I posted earlier, MY ENGINE WILL NOT HAVE MOVING PARTS. it consists of a length of 1 in. pipe running through a firebox (2 coffe cans). the pipe in the firebox will be curled. the engine works this way: "Pop-pop boats are powered by a simple boiler consisting of a thin coiled tube of copper. The tube's ends extend out the back of the boat into the water. The coils in the middle of the tube extend over a small flame, which heats the water in the coils. When the water boils, the steam jets out the back, propelling the boat forward. It's that simple." And I have NOT built my boat yet, I am waiting until I move to texas, which will be about a year from now, or a month from now. pretty simple engine huh? here is more stuff on this engine: "A small flame boils water in a very narrow tube so that it expands into steam. The expansion of the steam pushes the water out the tube at the back of the boat, and the boat moves forward in response to the jet of steam. After expansion, the steam cools enough to create a partial vacuum which refills the tube with water, and the cycle begins again."

[confused]

do you understand how the motor works now?

[confused]

yesss! I found a good way to hold planks in position after bending until they are dry!!!! hahaha! I can build me boat now!!!! HEre is how to hold planks in position after bending until dry: it consists of 2 planks nailed together at the end, while there is a board in the middle holding them apart, and at the other end of the planks are cleats to keep the rope from sliding off, and a rope going across the planks, and a board going between the rope, so when you twist it the board between the rope, it will pull the two planks together to the degree of bend you want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[confused]

I would post a pic if I knew how... and my only problem now is learning lofting.

[Knut Sand]

I would post a pic if I knew how... and my only problem now is learning lofting.

Doesnt need advanced lofting for a simple boat type, It doesnt need to be more difficult than this (enlarge):
http://www.galepp.com/boat/popboat.htm#anchor10


And this is the type of engine?:
http://www.sciencetoymaker.org/boat/index.htm

Simple engine, I like that its simple, Im a bit worried about the efficiency, if its to be useful, it got to make a lot of water into steam, which can make the boat into a hot environment. also to "reload" it need to drag the water in reverse back in the pipes.... Maybe suction pipes pointing forward in a combination with one-way valves.... But then you have moving parts... also to think of any moving parts will be screwed by remaining salt deposits in the water, so it'll be a fresh water boat. (Salt residues will also clog pipes).
Come to think of it, most types of water leaves some unwanted residue.... Only way to avoid that is to reuse the same water, and on an engine of this kind it seem a bit difficult to do.

Well its possible to try it (it'll take some time to clog the pipes anyway).

Whats wrong with getting your hands on a small (defective (for repair)?) outboard...?

When I was around 12, we collected some (most) of our savings, bought 2 used / scrapped engines, tried to make a helicopter..... Very nice story to think back on, nobody did think that we'd even get those engine started.... Nearly made us both a bit shorter in the upper area, difficult to get close to such a thing to turn it off, when you have a "large" unbalanced wooden propeller on top.....

A boat seem a much safer idea... (and especially a type with no boiler to blow up).

Careful with hot pipes and steam (steam burns are... well not too pleasant).
(In a small boat pipes will be very easy to stumble upon/ touch= cold water on the burned part of water for at least 15-20 minutes, if its larger than the palm of a hand: medical care immedeately, well; medical care can be considered in any case...).

[apex1]

I would post a pic if I knew how... and my only problem now is learning lofting.

Go to the bottom "quick reply"
"go advanced"
go to bottom
"manage attachments"
upload
"submit"

Regards
Richard

[confused]

cool! haha! nice anti aircraft gun! (40mm quad) the flag is the flag of that ship.

[confused]

I can build me boat anytime I want now then...

[apex1]

cool! haha! nice anti aircraft gun! (40mm quad)

Hey, thats your boat KID ?:confused:

[confused]

:D right! a battle ship!! haha! (no it's not my boat, its just a picture of anti aircraft guns) my boat is going to be built of wood, 14 feet long, 4 ft wide! but the flag with the skull with black eyes and red teeth is mine...

[apex1]

:D right! a battle ship!! haha! (no it's not my boat, its just a picture of anti aircraft guns) my boat is going to be built of wood, 14 feet long, 4 ft wide! but the flag with the skull with black eyes and red teeth is mine...

So now you know ho to spoil the thread......
And the pictures you would upload are.......???

[confused]

what type of boat do u have? and the pics are (that I would edit) of the process of bending the planks.

[confused]

ok. kinda hard to see, but u can maximize it. theres the picture. thanks 4 showing me how to post them. this is the motor, mines going to be a little less complicated though.

[apex1]

what type of boat do u have? .

Some boy, some...
look at my gallery............... just click my nickname and use the popup. Later the night I´ll come back with some issues about steam!
Regards
Richard

[confused]

wow... you sure know how to build boats...

[apex1]

wow... you sure know how to build boats...

Nahh...... not quite..
there´s more I do´nt know.... really! The **** is, I do not know what I do not know.;)

[confused]

hopefully I will be as good a boatbuilder as u r one day. boatbuilding's the thing I want to do when I'm old enough, for a job.

[apex1]

hopefully I will be as good a boatbuilder as u r one day. boatbuilding's the thing I want to do when I'm old enough, for a job.
first revision in dark red
Do´nt wait until the world has killed your enthusiasm with all the "this and that does´nt work, we never did it that way" and the like! If your pocket money allows, build a boat! It can be done at your age! With some adult assisting, this for example:
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=FL12&cat=11
Ask this Forum, they will give you every achievable support! Use this incredible pool of knowledge! First take care to set your goal and pace at accomplishable figures.
Too many have overestimated their abilities, some of them you´ll find here. And your task will possibly take you into that society.

Now the good news: it works!:) and the bad: in toys only.:(
look at the samples you have seen, compare the scale of the "motor" with the size of the boats! ? !:idea: Some can hardly bear the weight of the apparatus.
Now you have to bear in mind, that a little boat of say 2ft length can be built easily to become very rigid and strong but still light. To achieve the same rigidity in a vessel of 10ft you will need a incredible effort. Will say to make a little model carry 5 times its weight is easy, to try that in real scale is very expensive! Although not impossible.:) as we see later.
We now come to the "propulsion system":
To make one liter of water to become steam you need 2.257kj of energy, producing 1,673 m³ of steam. I´ll work with rough and rounded figures now to make it easier.
The only source of energy that is as safe and efficient to be used in such application is pit coal! :!: And I mean the ONLY !!!:!:
Assuming your boat will have a weight of about 100 kg (sorry the real world uses metric system), you may have about 70 kg, the apparatus (incl. water) another 150 kg, coal for a trip 30 kg. sum 350 kg
To propel that battleship you need to produce about 0,15 m³ (1 barrel) of steam per second, as a rough minimal estimation. The boat will anyway be very slow, I guess slower than a classic rowboat!
The theory:
1 kg of pit coal heats about 10 ltr. of water to 100°C (steam). You need 1 ltr. every 10 seconds, so say roughly 1 kg of coal to be burned every minute (bearing in mind you have some serious losses, the App. is´nt hightech).
To keep a fire running constantly you will need some 10 kg of ember in your boiler, feeding 1kg coal every minute.
Having such oven in a boat needs some effort in insulation, a real heavy cast iron oven and a pretty sophisticated tubing in mild steel of 3 - 5 cm (1 1/2 to 2 inches) diameter with a sufficient wall thickness of about 3 - 4 mm! Copper melts away! Furthermore you will need a one way valve in your feeder duct. The vacuum suction does´nt work at this scale. It might, but the tubing will be very complex.
If you have all the stuff hammered together, the sampan (google that) built and the launching survived, you might notice it´s too small, you cannot take your girlfriend to the romantic places!:cool:
I appreciate very much your enthusiasm and the fact that you are willing to go unpopular ways!:) And if you want my opinion........ build it as a toy .. do it now.. enjoy your result and like the experience it gave you!!!!!!!!!
Until you moved to your home at the south you may think about another (big) project and develop that to maturity.
Maybe, as a steam lover, you build a steam launch with a real steam engine?
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsteam.php#steam132
Maybe you can attract a old stoker or steam engine enthusiast like me to build you the engine while you build the boat? Then share the boat and your accumulated experience! Do´nt lough it is easy to get those old farts into a state of euphoria, I know I´m such a *****.
So, think twice if its worth to follow your plans or if it might be more enjoyable to have a real useful vessel that you can sail for the given purpose.
the romantic places as one example

And thanks to starling to open this thread and sorry that it was abused and hijacked soon!

Regards
Richard

and btw I am not a boatbuilder, I engage or employ them and sell their products. And even that as a hobby only

[masalai]

Well done Apex, I hope the nipper accepts your guidance...

[apex1]

Well done Apex, I hope the nipper accepts your guidance...
thanks MAS, he seems to be bright, if he also has the sense to understand, he will.;)

[confused]

ok. I understand what you mean. those toy boats have a pretty big engine to boat ratio, so maybe I can just use the weedeater engine in the garage with a busted gas tank. I remeber reading that the inventor of the 'pop'-'pop' engine wanted to use it on a full sized boat, or figure out how to, but it was too heavy. And by the way, what are you saying, battleship?! haha! I ain't going to have a battleship! I am just building a simple wooden boat, that was just a picture of a battleship that I posted, as a test for my ability to post pictures, kind of an expirement to see if it worked. Thanks for the advice. btw, I know what a sampan is. I don't really like fiberglass boats for some reason, but thanks anyway for that website with the 12 ft skiff. That steam launch website was pretty cool also, but a little too expensive... I know how steam engines work. These days, they r 2 expensive. I have a good website where I can buy the flywheel and cylinder, but the cylinder alone is(was) 90 us dollars, and the flywheel, (50 lb cast iron) is 80 us dollars. heres the site. go to products, then parts, and there is the flywheel and cylinder. http://tinypower.com/ wow. if I built a steam engine out of those parts, it would be a real torque monster!

[apex1]

ok. I understand what you mean. those toy boats have a pretty big engine to boat ratio, so maybe I can just use the weedeater engine in the garage with a busted gas tank. I remeber reading that the inventor of the 'pop'-'pop' engine wanted to use it on a full sized boat, or figure out how to, but it was too heavy. And by the way, what are you saying, battleship?! haha! I ain't going to have a battleship! I am just building a simple wooden boat, that was just a picture of a battleship that I posted, as a test for my ability to post pictures, kind of an expirement to see if it worked. Thanks for the advice. btw, I know what a sampan is.
Ahhh smart guy just wanted to test our knowledge.......................:P
Battleship i said because of the terrible weight of the construction you would need. As your clever designer / inventor already knows.
There is a thread here with a weedeater topic.............. find that.
Than have a look at the boatbuilder site I mentioned, make some drawings how your engine will fit in that. Come back and ask again. This boat mentioned is not a fiberglass boat you fool read the description!
Did I recommend to buy a steam engine??????
Learn to listen to the answer if you ask someone, otherwise you waste his time! Read my post again.
Let me know your steam engine website.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

I posted a link to the steam engine website. and that boat is too expensive. sorry about that bateleship confusion. and I was just saying I could save a little more money and buy a steam engine... I only have 230 us dollars. I MIGHT be getting 100 dollars for my birthday coming up. 410 dollars is a litte over my price range.

[apex1]

I posted a link to the steam engine website. and that boat is too expensive. sorry about that bateleship confusion. and I was just saying I could save a little more money and buy a steam engine... I only have 230 us dollars. I MIGHT be getting 100 dollars for my birthday coming up. 410 dollars is a litte over my price range.

Ok ok, thank you for the link.
As a first boat to be built the one I mentioned is really nice (and wooden). And 300$ ! Although time to build is closer to 50 than to 20 hrs.
http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/FL12_study.htm?prod=FL12
Later then, a steam launch is a vessel you might enjoy. At least it is always the most attractive in the parade, no matter if the local power monster has 12.000 or 8.000 hp only, the steam launch steals the observers admiration.:D And:
YOU cannot build a steam engine! The proper tools to do are far more expensive than th engine, let alone the skills needed.
Good luck
Richard

[confused]

I don't really care how much time it takes to build a boat. 50 to 20 hours you say? wow. that is a very short time to me. and, I could build a steam engine if I wanted to. they sell them at tinypower.com, in fully machined kits, where all I would have to do is slap it together and voila! do you think this has the power to move at least an eight footer? http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Vertical-Steam-engine-kit-a-big-40-pounds_W0QQitemZ260300233522QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260300233522&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 I could probably get someone to machine it for me...:D it was 750.00 u.s dollars, but now it is 255.00 dollars...

[apex1]

I don't really care how much time it takes to build a boat. 50 to 20 hours you say? NO I SAID 50 wow. that is a very short time to me. and, I could build a steam engine if I wanted to. NEVER ! they sell them at tinypower.com, in fully machined kits, where all I would have to do is slap it together and voila! Yes if all the machinery is done, naturally!do you think this has the power to move at least an eight footer? http://cgi.ebay.com/Large-Vertical-Steam-engine-kit-a-big-40-pounds_W0QQitemZ260300233522QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260300233522&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 I could probably get someone to machine it for me...:D it was 750.00 u.s dollars, but now it is 255.00 dollars...
1.
I cannot machine a steam engine in a professional manner! Any other way gets you in immediate trouble, steam is dangerous. And therefore a steam engine and boiler MUST be certified!
After some 40 years of experience with steam engines I would not be able if I had a lathe, a single spindle drilling machine, milling machine and all the tools EVERYONE needs to build a steam engine from cast parts. I do´nt have the skills! So you can?:confused:
2.
The engine shown on ebay is a very very lousy crafted piece of scrap! Probably a Chinese or Indian copy, hammered together in China or Zimbabwe.
Nobody in the civilized world will machine you such a engine for 500 US Rouble!
The engine is not reversible! Useless in a vessel! The guy on ebay claims it is easy to make her reversible but provides no plans or parts! He speaks nonsense!
The machinery you need for proper results will cost between 15.000$ and 25.000$! For that reason i recommended to find youself a ***** doing that for you!
Look at the prices at your steam engine shop tinypower! And they are cheap! Means probably not the highest quality!???
3.
The engine is only half of the rent.You´ll need a boiler, piping, Oil or coal bunkers and so on. That adds about another 60% to 80% of the engine price to the total amount.
4.
A steam engine of 1/4 horsepower propels easily a vessel of 16 -18 ft if light, slim and designed for that purpose. Steam engines are torque monsters! A diesel in comparison is a hairdryer, a outboard a toy. therefore:
This engine (any steam engine) cannot be used in the 12´ boat i recommended!
5.
Let the steam launch be a second task.........start with something like the 12´ boat. If you have proven your ability, reliability and endurance, you will impress some people in your neighborhood they will give a outboard for free.:D
6.
Stop to contradict me! I´ll otherwise bill you for my consulting service.:!:

Regards
Richard

[confused]

ok, ok! I just stick with this one boat I designed yesterday, it is 8ft long, 4 ft wide, and the hull is 1.5ft in height. cheaper anyway. and it should be stable considering the length to width ratio. I do not need any of your help for that, it is so simple to build. I just use the weedeater engine in the garage (if a 1.5 hp engine can push a 13 footer, why not an 8 footer?) and buy a cheapo composite prop online. I can build it ALL myself, (wouldn't be surprised if a 5 year old could) and I even fix the engine myself! I have engine expirence! I'll even attach the prop to the engine by MYSELF. and I didn't really want you to machine it forme anyway.

[marshmat]

Hi "confused",

I'll add a few of my own thoughts to the matter too. Feel free to disagree.

If I recall correctly, you said you were 13? Well, I was only two years older than that when I built my Bolger "Diablo", and it worked out pretty well, so yes, I do think you can do it.

Now, I'm curious what exactly draws you to the steam engine? Yes, it's a romantic notion, and yes, they do draw an admiring crowd. But most of the space is taken up by the boiler and engine, and what's left is full of coal, with a couple of burly guys to shovel it into the boiler as fast as they can. The "TinyPower" engines, like most of their kind, are bulky and expensive (although not expensive enough to be good). Steamboats are a nice romantic notion, but they are expensive, hard to build, and substantially more dangerous than normal motors. (I have seen a couple of small 50-100 psi pressure vessels blow- it is very, very scary and everyone is deaf for an hour afterwards. A steamboat boiler operates at similar or higher pressures, and is scalding hot to boot.)

A small, lightweight hull with a weedwhacker for power could be a really fun, quick and inexpensive project to get you started. Once you've been out on the water for a couple of seasons you start to get a feel for what type of boat might be best suited to the things you find you like to do out there. One of the nice things about an 8 to 12 footer with a cheap, compact engine is that you can easily flip it up on top of the car to get to all sorts of neat places. I might suggest going a little more towards the long side of that range- closer to 12 feet than to 8- so that you have enough room to carry a couple of friends. An 8-footer is great for poking into quiet streams where the fish are, but tends to get a bit cramped with more than one or two people. A weedwhacker won't be enough power to get on plane, but in a hull designed for efficient low-speed running it might work very well. Such a hull would likely also row very nicely.

I know some of the guys can get a bit on edge around here when discussions heat up. Don't let it get to you. The amount of expertise on this board is really, really high, even if it's not always what you want to hear. (I wish this community had been around when I built Sunset Chaser- the advice of some of the builders on here could have saved me an awful lot of time and a fair amount of wasted materials.)

[apex1]

The "TinyPower" engines, like most of their kind, are bulky and expensive (although not expensive enough to be good).


Matt .................10 points! For all your post, but especially for the statement above!
A real good engineered and built steam installation of 2 to 10 hp (there is not a big difference) is about 18.000€ to 25.000€ !:idea:
Anyway I would´nt discourage a young man to build a steam launch (after he´s earned some knowledge),it CAN be very safe and nice.
Did you notice the vessel I recommended to start with?

confused
I think I have to remove some doubts that I do´nt believe you are able to build your boat! I´m sure you are. Only for that reason I did the effort to give you a leading hand! I regret to destroy some of your imaginations, but hope I could replace them by more achievable tasks.
If I was a bit frank or harsh, stand it. I´m much much ruder with the adults.:D
And bear in mind please I am a German, this is not my mothers tongue.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

ok. maybe I start with steam engines 10 years from now, and stick with gas and diesel for now until then. Maybe just gas, diesels kinda expensive. I like steam engines because gas and diesel suck, and steam engines can burn anything, long as it's flamable. And they have lot's of torque, (I knew that before apex told me). My original idea was to use a hot bulb engine, but they seemed to have become extinct.

[confused]

If you have any sites where I can buy a hot bulb engine, then please tell.

[apex1]

If you have any sites where I can buy a hot bulb engine, then please tell.
Yes you knew the high torque fact already and mentioned it in a earlier post.

No, there will hardly be a hotbulb engine available, except you are near an old fishertown and can find a example of the old "SABB" engines, very popular till the late 50 ies. But such a monster has a weight of some 800 or 1000 lbs.
There have been thousands of tractors around with such engines, but I think they are almost all in collectors hands today and so, spare engines will be precious and rare.
Still nice to see that you are looking for something different!
Regards
Richard

[marshmat]

You'd be amazed what a beat-up old American gas engine can burn.... I know a guy who ran out of gas on the way into the lake once, so he poured a can of Coleman stove naptha into the tank of his Chevy and kept on going. The truck didn't care. My '94 Johnson 30 can reportedly burn 67-octane (I didn't know they made gas that crappy).

If you're into radical fuels, a solid old diesel without too much computerization ought to be able to burn a decent variety of fuels (including the crud drained from a McDonald's deep fryer) with a bit of tweaking.

I'm glad to see you're looking for something different, too :) Most folks just slap on whatever outboard happens to be popular in their area, and off they go. Then when it breaks, out comes the wallet. Doing it yourself is much more fun!

As far as engines go, "confused", something you may find interesting would be to look up a local dealer in used/refurbished reefer trucks. Some of the refrigeration units use little diesel engines that, now and then, can be had cheap and in need of a bit of work. Still, for your first build, I think the weedwhacker engine would be an ideal choice- simple, cheap, light, easy to fix with tools you're likely to have access to, and it'll get you on the water so you can get a feel for what kind of boating you like best.

[confused]

Cool! I found a site that sells diesels that might be able to burn wvo! (Waste Vegatable Oil) Actually I found it about a month ago, I'm just telling you. of course the engines would be to heavy for an 8 footer. I e-mailed them awhile ago about their 3.5 hp engine, but they haven't gotten back with me yet. I'll give you the site if you want to use one of these engines on one of your boats. http://www.prakash-india.com/product/de_ac_3.5to10.htm I am going to e-mail those buttwipes again and see if they get back with me finally!

[apex1]

Cool! I found a site that sells diesels that might be able to burn wvo! (Waste Vegatable Oil) Actually I found it about a month ago, I'm just telling you. of course the engines would be to heavy for an 8 footer. I e-mailed them awhile ago about their 3.5 hp engine, but they haven't gotten back with me yet. I'll give you the site if you want to use one of these engines on one of your boats. http://www.prakash-india.com/product/de_ac_3.5to10.htm I am going to e-mail those buttwipes again and see if they get back with me finally!

Yaahhhh..these old (usually English) beasts burn almost every liquid (except catpinkle, but I´m not shure about that).:p

The most popular of this type in your country are old "Lister Diesels" and their derivates and copies. look:
http://www.listeroid.com/engines.html
They sell for about $ 1500 to 2000 (at your backdoor) and have a weight from 800 lbs up.
Wear a knights armour to operate such copy, some tend to disintegrate suddenly!
To prakash.... I do´nt recommend to call a future business partner buttwipe.
Maybe they did´nt take your approach for serious? Usually the established companies in India are very polite and helpful.

Regards
Richard

[confused]

yah, I've been to that site before. I watched a video on youtube of one of those running. I'll give you the link for the video if you want to watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUF2X0vjXm8&feature=related I just asked those Injuns:D to send a price on the 3.5 hp air cooled engine, which looked like the cheapest, and the (lightest:confused: ). On the specs. the weight said 80, I'm not sure if they mean pounds or tons:D

[confused]

Uhhhh... sorry for kinda ruining your thread starling...(snicker)

[marshmat]

The Prakash you're looking at is most likely 80 kg, or about 180 lb. To that, you'll need to add the weight and cost of mounts, gearbox, shaft, etc. Don't forget to add the cost of shipping it halfway around the world, which can be significant. (Not trying to discourage you, just alerting you to some of the hidden and problematic numbers that often don't crop up until too late in the process.) These look like very "old tech" engines, based on designs that might date back to the '50s or earlier, so probably a bit smoky as well as being fairly heavy for the power output. It's awfully hard to evaluate the build quality from an online spec sheet though. If there's a good machinist putting them together, you may end up with something that'll burn any fuel you can find and will live for 40 years. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of getting a lemon.

[confused]

1 kilogram = 2.20462262 pounds

[confused]

haha! the world's goin' to end in three years (2012) won't really matter if the engine lasts for 4 years!

[confused]

o.k maybe not but still, it might. I'm jumping to diesle engines forum, so's not to ruin starling's forum more'n I already have. (burnt rubber smell one)

[confused]

I know apex1, how you said not to use steam engines for a couple more years or whatever, but pleasse just tell me if this engine will work on my 8 footer! It is machined, so I dont have to worry about that, I guess give me your opinion what you think about using it on my boat. I really want to use a steam engine on my boat. I have chronic steam engine disese. It might be a little contagious, but it ain't that bad. http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Marine-Engine-Fully-Machined-kit-2AM_W0QQitemZ140298347093QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item140298347093&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 I mean, I don't want the ugly buzzing of a gasoline outboard scaring away all of the wildlife, and ruining the piece and quite.

[apex1]

I know apex1, how you said not to use steam engines for a couple more years or whatever, but pleasse just tell me if this engine will work on my 8 footer! It is machined, so I dont have to worry about that, I guess give me your opinion what you think about using it on my boat. I really want to use a steam engine on my boat. I have chronic steam engine disese. It might be a little contagious, but it ain't that bad. http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Marine-Engine-Fully-Machined-kit-2AM_W0QQitemZ140298347093QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item140298347093&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 I mean, I don't want the ugly buzzing of a gasoline outboard scaring away all of the wildlife, and ruining the piece and quite.

wait for a moment I calculate:idea: ............edited: NO!
wait I´ll find a solution.
You know this site?:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14185

[confused]

:D thanks!

[marshmat]

If quiet, and not scaring the wildlife, is an important design factor, how about looking at electric?

Trolling motors are cheap, nearly silent, work well at low speeds, and aren't too hard to modify for unusual applications. They're not so sexy, though. Of course, there is the problem of limited range- you end up needing either a rather large set of batteries, or a small gas generator, if you want to go far.

With a bit of creativity, I think one could come up with a pretty sleek looking boat in the 8 to 12 foot range that would move along smartly with an inexpensive (and concealed) electric motor, and would still be nice to row and easy to carry up on the beach, or to the car, etc.

Just a thought.

[confused]

haha! electric motors are too heavy, and they suck! (no offense) and, with the heavy battery (probably a car battery) they be even heavier..
Oh, and apex1, do ya think that I might be able to put a small gear train in to increase the power alittle? yeah, I know smokstak. been there before.

[apex1]

I know apex1, how you said not to use steam engines for a couple more years or whatever, but pleasse just tell me if this engine will work on my 8 footer! I mean, I don't want the ugly buzzing of a gasoline outboard scaring away all of the wildlife, and ruining the piece and quite.

I just have the opinion, that a sort of lower level entry is far easier to achieve and not as frustrating!
I am for sure the last one to keep you off steam technology. the exact opposite..:cool:
The tiny engine you mentioned is really just a toy. Apart from the lack of quality, the size is too small to move your boat. You´ll need a cyl. diam. of at least 1,5 inch to achieve the power required (1/4 to 1/3 ihp). If you manage to find such engine do not forget to find a compatible boiler as well. The latter is more difficult.
Search for old "Stuart", "Stuart Turner", "Alex Ritchie" "Blackstaffe & Wood" engines, sometimes they are sold together with the boiler. Never within your todays budget.:(
Find the steam community in your neighbourhood! You will definitively find someone who lends, gives or builds you an appropriate installation if you have proven to pursue your target.
Bad news for today I regret to say that.
If you can manage to find a little "Stirling Motor" you have won the first race. The Stirling can be operated by a simple (and safe) propane gas burner and is more efficient than steam. Moreover the overall weight of the installation is less than half the weight of steam technique.
Let me know your opinions.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

thanks. I know where to find stirling motors at. I'll give you the link so you can see if it's the right type. I think that I'll stick with the steam engine (just as a birthday present). I'll find a stirling motor for the boat still though. http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn=61&action=show&show_products_mode=cat_click and with quality comes the price:D

[apex1]

thanks. I know where to find stirling motors at. I'll give you the link so you can see if it's the right type. I think that I'll stick with the steam engine (just as a birthday present). I'll find a stirling motor for the boat still though. http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn=61&action=show&show_products_mode=cat_click

Technically they are Sterling engines, but I mean a real one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine
A old Philips for example.
edit:
another steam link:
http://www.steamboating.de/stuff/stuff-main.html

[confused]

I see...maybe this idea? I could modify the gasoline engine to burn wvo, maybe I could just take the cylinder and piston out, and the crankshaft, all the necessary stuff, except the sparkplug. then, I heat up the head of the cylinder until it is hot enought to combust oil, and after I fill the gas tank with wvo, I could turn the engine over and when the fuel inlet valve opens, it lets fuel in which touches the hot inner surface of the cylinder and ignites. if it doesn't work, what have I got to lose? a piece of c--- engine.

[marshmat]

Stirling engines are fun. Nice and quiet, and if well designed can be reasonably powerful. They don't have a steam engine's torque, preferring to build up a few RPM, but are lighter and generally more efficient. A real Stirling engine will run pretty much forever with very little maintenance. If, that is, you can find one.

haha! electric motors are too heavy, and they suck! (no offense) and, with the heavy battery (probably a car battery) they be even heavier.. LOL. You might want to try lifting one up sometime. On the last solar car I worked on, we built an electric motor right into the wheel, the complete assembly weighed maybe 20 kg (add another 5 kg for controller, plus whatever batteries you use- 30 kg in our case, which is about what a full 30 L gas tank weighs). It could give us good bursts of 5+ kW, about double the power of the diesels you've been mentioning despite weighing 1/4 as much. We could do burnouts in the parking lot, the torque was amazing if you set things up right. With the solar array unplugged it could run for 300 km on about 40 cents worth of electricity. We had a nice custom bank of lithium polymer batteries for that one, that would not be available (or advisable) for a home builder.

A trolling motor's not as sophisticated as a solar car drive, of course, but still packs a decent whallop of thrust in a compact, cheap package.

[confused]

ok. ok. sorry...(haha) I have an idea forming in my head... (please let this work God!) I was thinking about that steam engine that I want for my birthday, I could somehow make it run on wvo, like I could attach the steam inlet pipe to an air and fuel inlet, and it would work this way: after attaching the steam inlet pipe to a wvo tank, and putting a seperate pipe for air to come through, I will fill up the tank with wvo, heat up the head of the cylinder to the combustion point of the oil, and turn the engine over, and when the inlet valve opens letting in wvo and air, the wvo touches the inside of the cylinder and ignites, driving the piston, which turns the flywheel, etc, etc. It would make a nice little verticle hot bulb engine which might have more power than if it were running on steam. Sounds like it'll work to me.

[apex1]

ok. ok. sorry...(haha) I have an idea forming in my head... (please let this work God!) I was thinking about that steam engine that I want for my birthday, I could somehow make it run on wvo, like I could attach the steam inlet pipe to an air and fuel inlet, and it would work this way: after attaching the steam inlet pipe to a wvo tank, and putting a seperate pipe for air to come through, I will fill up the tank with wvo, heat up the head of the cylinder to the combustion point of the oil, and turn the engine over, and when the inlet valve opens letting in wvo and air, the wvo touches the inside of the cylinder and ignites, driving the piston, which turns the flywheel, etc, etc. It would make a nice little verticle hot bulb engine which might have more power than if it were running on steam. Sounds like it'll work to me.

That could work......................:idea:





.........once....



...I mean one ignition.......

The trouble with all Diesel engines wheather they burn Mc Donalds residue or mineral oil: the fuel has to be vaporized during injection and against the pressure of the upward going Piston, as a brief overview. A steam engine has´nt such equipment.
If you bring fuel to ignition as you describe, the cylinder will burst.

do´nt callme killjoy


Regards
Richard

[confused]

who called you killjoy? (I didn't)

[apex1]

who called you killjoy? (I didn't)

No. no..;)
Just sometimes I feel as if I was a sort of.:)

[confused]

:D yeah. I just stick with steam for steam engines. I could run it on compressed air though, or compressed water... don't open that attachment! (really) I was trying to attach a picture, it might be a virus. how'd that picture get there? (snicker)

[apex1]

:D yeah. I just stick with steam for steam engines. I could run it on compressed air, though ;) or compressed water... don't open that thing! (really) I was trying to attach a picture, it might be a virus.

You can run every steam engine on compressed air. If you have a friendly diver around who fills the tanks quite often, you may be able to make some trips of several minutes with a standard tank.:)
Do´nt post scrap kid...

[confused]

You can run every steam engine on compressed air. If you have a friendly diver around who fills the tanks quite often, you may be able to make some trips of several minutes with a standard tank.:)
Do´nt post scrap kid...
I ain't tryin' ta be rude, but I thought that you said that that engine wouldn't propel a boat. Correct me if I'm wrong. I gotta at least try to use that engine in my boat. Oh, we don't have any divers out here in Nevada, but we have a lake called lake mead, it's pretty good sized. Look up Las Vegas, NV. on google maps. you'll see what I mean. It's desert out here. Btw, I could also use an air compressor on my boat, like a small one. My dad also has this air tank in the garage. It coulld probably hold about as much as a scuba tank.

[apex1]

I ain't tryin' ta be rude, but I thought that you said that that engine wouldn't propel a boat. Correct me if I'm wrong. I gotta at least try to use that engine in my boat. Oh, we don't have any divers out here in Nevada, but we have a lake called lake mead, it's pretty good sized. Look up Las Vegas, NV. on google maps. you'll see what I mean.

I know you´ll try.............. hey, I´m 60 and have several children....who knows if not me?:D
She will not propel you and the boat, she will hardly turn the prop. But with air the experiment is much safer and cheaper than with steam.
Good luck
I know lake mead, did´nt notice you´re living there. So no steamboat community and the like before you go to texas (Chris Rear song).
Forlorn quarter häh? .....Plenty of landscape..............................................................................................................

Regards
Richard

[confused]

so.. that engine won't even be able to turn this prop? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1953-Sears-Elgin-571-Outboard-6-HP-Boat-Motor-Propeller_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem360127505219QQitemZ360127505219QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear hopefully I will be able to get advice from some local boatbuilders in texas. we will be living near the coast. I doubt we're movin' though, anytime soon. If you ever come to America, never go to Las Vegas. It sucks. I doubt you'll come here anyway, the way things are goin' here in America. I wish that I could go to another country, meybe Switzerland, but not 'till I move out of the house.

[apex1]

so.. that engine won't even be able to turn this prop?

No......
not with shaft, and when the prop is submerged.
Thanks for the warning. I know that rats nest since ages. But do´nt worry I´ll never visit the US again.

[confused]

I see. the drag of the water on the prop will stop the engine. you're lucky that you're in Germany, away from any major populations. ha! but if we do move to texas, we might be more secluded than you... and there is a big river near our house, and lots of canals in the area. I'm lucky if I get that house. There's even a lake in the area! It seems that we are going into another depression here in America. You can probably feel it in Germany too.

[apex1]

I see. the drag of the water on the prop will stop the engine. you're lucky that you're in Germany, away from any major populations. ha! but if we do move to texas, we might be more secluded than you... and there is a big river near our house, and lots of canals in the area. I'm lucky if I get that house. There's even a lake in the area! It seems that we are going into another depression here in America. You can probably feel it in Germany too.

away from any major populations. ???? :idea:
We have about the highest density of population (except Japan) in the civilized world.
Depression is not a real issue here, our economy is pretty strong.

[confused]

ok. sorry bout thaat. I might use the steam engine to recharge the batteries for an electric motor on my boat, then.

[apex1]

ok. sorry bout thaat. I might use the steam engine to recharge the batteries for an electric motor on my boat, then.

That my dear is a hell of a clever idea, ten points.:idea:
A bit heavy all the stuff, but we´ll make it work.

It may take a week or so, but I´m willing to make you a proper design for that installation (the steam side).
Try to get more info about that engine you bear in mind. (everything you can get)
For the genny and the related stuff we must find us another specialist here, but that should be a minor issue.
Regards
Richard
and please do´nt edit your posts too much after receiving a answer it is irritating, better make a new post, thanks

[confused]

all a generator is (you probably already know this) is an electric motor being spun by another motor, and the two wires that power the electric motor put out electricity when you power the electric motor. my brother made one out of an electric motor an attached wooden fins to the shaft, and held it under the garden hose, and it lit up a light bulb. So you could say I am (not really that much) a generator 'expert'

[confused]

That lil' engine that I (am, my parents said) am getting for my birthday could probably turn a one horse electric motor, but I'll jis' get a 1/4 horse motor for a generator. I'll find out more info, they list the make, but I looked them up on the net, an' I can't find 'em. I thought they could give me some more info on there engine, but the only listing(s) I can find for that engine are on ebay.

[confused]

whoa!!!! look at this monster! I wish I had her!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg

[apex1]

whoa!!!! look at this monster! I wish I had her!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOCxP1dGr3Y

cannot watch youtube !!!!!:mad:
I am in Turkey at present, this country has banned youtube!:mad:
Can you copy that to another provider?
come back later have to work a bit.
R.
R.

[confused]

Wait, why did they ban you toob? nvm. your doin a job a work. to bad! :D

[apex1]

all a generator is (you probably already know this) is an electric motor being spun by another motor, and the two wires that power the electric motor put out electricity when you power the electric motor. my brother made one out of an electric motor an attached wooden fins to the shaft, and held it under the garden hose, and it lit up a light bulb. So you could say I am (not really that much) a generator 'expert'

shure I know,.....but.... its not that easy, as always, I return to this point later, meanwhile you download and study this:
http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-EN-EnergyUnlimited.pdf
and that:
http://download.r-g.de/handbuch/handbuch_komplett.pdf
please.
R.
R.

[apex1]

Wait, why did they ban you toob?

dont play goofy... provide a solution please!
I am (not offline but:) not in the Forum for a while.:!:
R.
R.

[confused]

do I need that "handbUch" on composite materials? oh, and that youtube video was kinda off topic, it was a ju87 g stuka (aircraft you might know since it's a German aircraft) man! it is nice... too bad you can't watch it! it was blasting away these boats with it's cannons! ok, ok! here it is! [url] nvm... HAHA!

[apex1]

First proposal
engineering will take a week or so, I´m pretty busy currently.
R.
R.

[confused]

allright. I need to do some online schooling also. I can draw my design on paper, then you could revise it. I would have to scan it though, then email you the design. aso, how do you get an avatar? (that picture next to your name)

[apex1]

do I need that "handbUch" on composite materials? oh, and that youtube video was kinda off topic, it was a ju87 g stuka (aircraft you might know since it's a German aircraft) man! it is nice... too bad you can't watch it! it was blasting away these boats with it's cannons! ok, ok! here it is! [url] nvm... HAHA!

goofy

[apex1]

allright. I need to do some online schooling also. I can draw my design on paper, then you could revise it. I would have to scan it though, then email you the design. aso, how do you get an avatar? (that picture next to your name)

goofy (the picture) wasting space on Forum server!:mad:

Avatar dunno, forgotten that.:confused:
Visit this:
http://www.boyleservices.com/boyle_refurbished_boilers_page.htm
site regularly! You may find a 5hp or below, gas fired for next to nothing. (for the next project we need different equipment)
Contact them, be polite, decent, ask for a small 1hp (possibly for free?)
And yes :D dl Handbuch, its in English too.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

YEAHhhh I FOUND A DYNAMO I GIVE YOU THE LINK!!!!!!!!!!! they measure boilers in horsepower? that dynamo (machined one) is 12 volts
http://www.minicastings.com/acatalog/PM_Page2.html

[apex1]

YEAHhhh I FOUND A DYNAMO I GIVE YOU THE LINK!!!!!!!!!!! they measure boilers in horsepower? that dynamo (machined one) is 12 volts
http://www.minicastings.com/acatalog/PM_Page2.html

Yes these are boilers for industrial use and the landlubbers and non steamers are usually a bit disabled or complete ******, they do´nt know psi or kg steam hr and the like.
If you are really steam infested do not open this link or rummage in that site:
http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/marine.htm :P
I´ll look for your dynamo.
R.
R.
OK, have seen the site, very nice stuff but toys only and what are we doing with a 10W dynamo? We need 100W! It will be much easier to find a 100 W DC E Motor for almost nothing, than getting toys to propel your boat!

[confused]

I've been to preston services before. they have some nice engines and boilers, even traction engines. I like the first boiler, the coal fired one that is good for steam launches and workshops. I found a good electric motor which might work for a dynamo. heres the link. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92104 It's 115 volts.

[confused]

I'm looking for boilers.

[apex1]

I've been to preston services before. they have some nice engines and boilers, even traction engines. I like the first boiler, the coal fired one that is good for steam launches and workshops. I found a good electric motor which might work for a dynamo. heres the link. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92104 It's 115 volts.
I cannot find a motor, but thats absolutely unimportant. We schould first be focused on finding a suitable boiler. Be patient! I cannot do the design in a few moments. It is senseless to search for items we will probably never use!:eek:
Did you open my sketch( pdf)? I´m waiting for yours. Again: be patient.

A helpful tool to calculate with imperial and metric system is: Con soft Multicalc (if you surf European sites you may need it).

Regards
Richard

[confused]

I looked at your sketch. I'll send you mine in awhile. this is just the boiler.

[confused]

Here is the boat sketch. Kinda ugly, but simple.

[apex1]

Here is the boat sketch. Kinda ugly, but simple.
The first you posted looked more promising, to be honest.
Think we better use my sketches, especially for the boiler!
R.
R.

[confused]

I found a good electric boat motor. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0063832020391a&navCount=1&podId=0063832&parentId=cat602014&masterpathid=&navAction=jump&cmCat=netcon&catalogCode=IK&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat602014&hasJS=trueThat's how the boat's going to look, though. It will have the sides slanting towards the bow.

[apex1]

I found a good electric boat motor. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0063832020391a&navCount=1&podId=0063832&parentId=cat602014&masterpathid=&navAction=jump&cmCat=netcon&catalogCode=IK&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat602014&hasJS=trueThat's how the boat's going to look, though. It will have the sides slanting towards the bow.

Very good, very good, The Minn Kota on the same side is the much better one for 20$more!!! Read the buyers guide.

[confused]

alright.

[confused]

Haha! my mom burnt my teacher!!!! I tell you the story tomorrow.

[confused]

Welll, the time zone i'm in it's 10:41 am. so, my teacher called, and said she was coming thursday, (she usually comes on friday) I do online schooling, so I do school at the house. And on friday, the teacher comes to check my progress. So, I would've had to get my work done really fast, But, my mom called the teacher and said that she had an apointment with her neighbor that day. And my teacher usally comes a 8:00 am, but since we reschedualed, She is coming at 2:30 in the afternoon on friday!! 10 and 1/2 more days to my birthday!!! (where I live)

[apex1]

Welll, the time zone i'm in it's 10:41 am. so, my teacher called, and said she was coming thursday, (she usually comes on friday) I do online schooling, so I do school at the house. And on friday, the teacher comes to check my progress. So, I would've had to get my work done really fast, But, my mom called the teacher and said that she had an apointment with her neighbor that day. And my teacher usally comes a 8:00 am, but since we reschedualed, She is coming at 2:30 in the afternoon on friday!! 10 and 1/2 more days to my birthday!!! (where I live)

Thought she burnt her by using your new boiler.:p

Go for the Minn Kota! The rest comes in asecond step.

R.R.

[confused]

My birthday is on saturday, so no school for me on my birthday!! I think I oughta build the boat first... but I have to wait until I move to Texas. I'll have plenty of time to jack around with the steam engine, like attaching a pully to the shaft and seeing how much weight it can lift. Is that the right way to measure torque? if not please give me a way to measure torque (in pounds). I know that a six hp gasoline engine has 9.0 ft pounds in torque, so if the engine was you, then you would be putting 9 pounds of pressure on a shaft, with a handle on it to turn it? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200347226_200347226

[apex1]

My birthday is on saturday, so no school for me on my birthday!! I think I oughta build the boat first... but I have to wait until I move to Texas. I'll have plenty of time to jack around with the steam engine, like attaching a pully to the shaft and seeing how much weight it can lift. Is that the right way to measure torque? if not please give me a way to measure torque (in pounds). I know that a six hp gasoline engine has 9.0 ft pounds in torque, so if the engine was you, then you would be putting 9 pounds of pressure on a shaft, with a handle on it to turn it? http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200347226_200347226

No..............but
in principle yes, if you take the lenght of the involved lever into account! Notice the difference between torque as a static momentum and torque as a power!
My English is´nt sufficient to go much deeper here, and imperial is a mess, please use Wikipedia to read the law of nature in deep.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

:p horsepower (mechanical) = 33000 ft·lbf/min = 550 ft·lbf/s so, 6 hp = 99000 foot pounds of torque per minute, or 3300 foot pound of torque per second. Nice huh? I need to know more about steam engine torque though. So, 1 ftlb of torque is=to:1.3558179483314004 joules exactly, 1 joule = the power to lift a small apple 1 meter straight up in the air (in simple terms). So, I could have a basket :D, with a few small apples, and I could keep adding small apples until it can't lift anymore, then I could convert it to joules, then torque. Then I'd have figured out how much torque my steam engine has. One joule is equal to: 0.7376 ft·lbf of torque. You think I might be able to make that boat into a micro houseboat? Well, here's an example... http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dockbox/index.htm

[apex1]

:p horsepower (mechanical) = 33000 ft·lbf/min = 550 ft·lbf/s so, 6 hp = 99000 foot pounds of torque per minute, or 3300 foot pound of torque per second. Nice huh? I need to know more about steam engine torque though. So, 1 ftlb of torque is=to:1.3558179483314004 joules exactly, 1 joule = the power to lift a small apple 1 meter straight up in the air (in simple terms). So, I could have a basket :D, with a few small apples, and I could keep adding small apples until it can't lift anymore, then I could convert it to joules, then torque. Then I'd have figured out how much torque my steam engine has. One joule is equal to: 0.7376 ft·lbf of torque. You think I might be able to make that boat into a micro houseboat? Well, here's an example... http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dockbox/index.htm

Every idiot who knows someone with a neighbour who has seen a hammer, can build this boat. So why not you?:D
You have seen the model?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/Projects/dockbox/index.htm
But as shown there.... absolutely sheltered waters only! And it will not live long. But it is perfect to use the Minn Kota because it easily accommodates the batteries sheltered!
Regards
Me

[confused]

o.k "me.":D I see. How about this one? how long do ya think it would live?
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/harmonica/index.htm

[apex1]

o.k "me.":D I see. How about this one? how long do ya think it would live?
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/harmonica/index.htm

Same life, but too heavy, do you have a car and trailer? The first one is a heavy boat too! Every square inch of boat you have to cover with a sealant (glass Epoxy), that means cost, weight, time.

Please do not come up with the next boat, I will not disappoint you, but I do´nt have the time to go through every new idea, sorry. I have to build two new Container Harbours here. That means I daily have to deal with the governement, the operator, prospective clients, have to make the businessplan, the architecture, the financing, the construction and all the related stuff of a several billion Euro investment. Usually a job to keep some 140 to 200 employees busy. I do it with a secretary only. I hope you understand. Building boats is just my hobby, even though I do it in larger scales.
Naturally I´ll stay with your project and like to provide every possible guidance. But that has to be done a mature way, means I have to understand your target. I am absolutely unable to follow a new one every day. Very sorry.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

I'll leave you alone, Then when I have built my boat, I'll send you some photos of it. I'll send photos of the steam engine also, after I get it. You have helped me alot thanks! I don't need anymore help.
Mike J.

[apex1]

I'll leave you alone, Then when I have built my boat, I'll send you some photos of it. I'll send photos of the steam engine also, after I get it. You have helped me alot thanks! I don't need anymore help.
Mike J.

Nono, do´nt misunderstand me, I like to assist with your project! I should, I am a project developer! I just cannot go too deep into daily changing thoughts, thats all. So please keep me informed!
Kindest regards
Richard

[Knut Sand]

;) do not open this link or rummage in that site:
http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/marine.htm :P


.....................

You did that on purpose.... My wife doesnt like tech museums..... So when she told me to just take my time cos' she had found a sofa... She had actually found a "Cray".... Didnt belive my eyes, the watchman had steam blasting from his ears......

And one more thing on the "todo" list...; Kent, and another museum, if Im in the "area"....:rolleyes:

For info of Cray:
http://www.universitetsavisa.no/ua_lesmer.php?kategori=nyheter&dokid=456e91b62c9420.67787431 (Part of it does actually look lika a sofa:p ..).

Btw;
1 litre of water, heated to 180 deg C, will cause a pressure of approx 12 bar. If released quickly, it'll expand to somthing in the area 180-200 litres atmospheric pressure. A perfect recipee(?) for a bad day will be (a lot of) hot metal parts flying through the air in 200 km/h, include hot steam with a tendency to scold the skin of any living creature nearby. To that add a restricted area with small escape possibilities, and a burning/ sinking boat....
Oh well; I belive that I once calculated out that you need 3 litres of overheated water, and you can replace that with 1 bar of dynamite. I did that consideration/ calculation sitting on a boiler, testing safety functions, testing volume was 3000 litres..... I have abselutely no problem with remembering how the hair of my body started to rise.....(something wrong here....??). Consider a boiler as an explosion already happened, Its a spring you wind up. And its the grace of the steel, good builders and God thats between you and an urgent appointment with St. Peter.

Just my pessimistic rambling here.....

Go for the Kudo or a small outboard - First.:D

Some links to the accident that shaped the rules for calculations and the opened the eyes for the need for regulations for the steam industry:

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genepool/sultana.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~indiana42nd/Sultana.htm

The first rules were written with blood....:(

There have also been speculation about that this caused the explosion:
The Courtenay Coal torpedo:
http://192.220.96.192/coal.htm

(well...; the North did hollow out wood, preparated that in a similar way and tried to smuggle that into the stores of the Confederates:rolleyes: ) .

[marshmat]

Hi again 'confused' :)

Running a steam-powered generator to keep a couple of batteries charged up, and having the main drive as electric, could be made to work. You could think of it as a very small, fossil-fuel-powered version of the massive, nuclear-fuelled steam turbines that drive the generators of big Navy ships!

I had a look at the motor you posted earlier from HarborFreight. It is a single-phase induction motor with capacitive start. Unfortunately, this type of motor cannot easily be converted to a generator without a lot of heavy, expensive control circuitry (ie, a regenerative VFD, which would cost a few thousand bucks).

The MinnKota equivalent of that trolling motor you found would probably be a good match for a boat like this. These things are 12 or 24 volt, which is fairly easy to work with. Why not do the generation at this voltage, too?

I'd suggest giving your local auto wrecker a call to see if you can track down a used truck alternator with the same voltage as your chosen motor. Then run it with a belt drive from the steam engine. This would be fairly cheap and compact, and by playing with pulley sizes you can get both the steam engine and the alternator running at appropriate speeds. A 40 to 60 A, 12 V alternator would be comfortably driven by a 1 hp steam engine.

Please do keep us posted on how your project is coming. No doubt you'll have plenty more questions come up during the design and build process, we're here to help :)

[confused]

:D yup. I'm still here! Alive 'n kickin'! Hey apex, guess how much those people want for their merryweather coal fired boiler? 1500 pounds sterling!!!!! (talk about overpriced!!) I think I'll stick with the homemade one! (oh yeah, I didn't want to build those boats that I showed you I've seen them before, I was just thinkin' about them for some reason)... Nice coal-bomb!! (kinda scary though if you own a steamboat and you have a neighbor that hates you)... 1 British pound = 1.4629 U.S. dollars. I designed the world's smallest "houseboat" yesterday. I could build it for 50 dollars! (maybe less), it is 5ft long, 2.5ft wide, and the 'house' part of it is 4ft long, 2.5ft wide, and 2.5 ft tall! you could hual it on a trailer (I designed the trailer to) that is 6 ft long, and you could pull it with your bike, or YOU could pull it! AND, you could take the hull of and just put your little house ashore and live there for a while... I'll bet it would make anyone claustrophobic! (I just designed it, I ain't going to build it) Then, if you don't like the boat idea, you could turn it into a mobile home that you can pull with your bike!! I gotta do some online schoolwork, so I'll be online.

[apex1]

:D yup. I'm still here! Alive 'n kickin'! Hey apex, guess how much those people want for their merryweather coal fired boiler? 1500 pounds sterling!!!!! (talk about overpriced!!) I think I'll stick with the homemade one! (oh yeah, I didn't want to build those boats that I showed you I've seen them before, I was just thinkin' about them for some reason)... Nice coal-bomb!! (kinda scary though if you own a steamboat and you have a neighbor that hates you)... 1 British pound = 1.4629 U.S. dollars. I designed the world's smallest "houseboat" yesterday. I could build it for 50 dollars! (maybe less), it is 5ft long, 2.5ft wide, and the 'house' part of it is 4ft long, 2.5ft wide, and 2.5 ft tall! you could hual it on a trailer (I designed the trailer to) that is 6 ft long, and you could pull it with your bike, or YOU could pull it! AND, you could take the hull of and just put your little house ashore and live there for a while... I'll bet it would make anyone claustrophobic! (I just designed it, I ain't going to build it)

Nice idea with the houseboat. I can imagine that could be some sort of adventure trolling a lake or river for some day AND nights. Bit Huck Finn like ähh?
The Boiler is average to low priced! Collectors items, you know?
Would like if you go with the Minn Kota and a proven and not overcomplicated design for your first undertaking. Keep me updated.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

ha! huck finn like! if you happen to encounter a dam in that little boat, then just land it, pull it around the dam and keep going! (I have to wait until I move to texas to build that boat) I'll just wait. good idea that motor for 120$ that you told me about. But I'll still buy the steam engine, and still send you some photos of that. Actually I'll post them on the forum. I'll take some of the engine running also. We might move to boulder city, it's in nevada, but it's close to lake mead, so I might be able to build that boat if we move there. A homeless person could build that mobile home or houseboat out of scrapwood for NO money at all I just relized! And I guess you're right about that boiler... It looked pretty old to me. What does this mean?! Slutt for Cray (slutt? slut in norwegian...?:)) slutt for cray....... (a slut for a crayfish?!)

[confused]

Это я думаю, норвежский...

[apex1]

;) .....................

You did that on purpose.... NEVER

Btw;
1 litre of water, heated to 180 deg C, will cause a pressure of approx 12 bar. If released quickly, it'll expand to somthing in the area 180-200 litres atmospheric pressure.
.
Some basic (out of recollection) footnotes:
Water (no matter how much) heated to 140°C gives a pressure of about 12,5 bar. 180° is not achievable in a classic "Scotch" boiler. Nor is a pressure above 15bar.;)
1 Liter expands to onethousandsixhundred Liters of steam!:!:
edit: sorry viking you were right with the temperature I was some 40°C below the right numbers!
here it is in deep:
temp °C 189,8
pressure kpa 1250
enthalpy kj/kg 1400,3
entropy kj/kg/°C 3,5
quality 0,3
density kg/m³ 20,8
internal energy kj/kg 1340,4
spec. volume m³/kg 0,0479
Helmholz free energy kj/kg -287,41
isobaric heat capacity kj/kg/°C 3,96
isochoric " " " 2,94
edit end


Naturally if that will be released by failure you have no chance to run. But just raising your butt may not help either, if the gas tank under your seat starts to blow up.
One and a half centuries and a gazillion of miles of steam driven passenger transport by railway systems and ships have proven that it is possible to handle the stuff safe!

Proper and careful handled, steam is not more dangerous than any other public propulsion. I do it since 40 years (with care and some knowledge). The risk to become transformed into biodegradable matter in one second, is much higher sitting besides a propane stove in a RV, or enjoying a ride (the final one?) by starting the engine in a gasoline driven sportboat.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Hi again 'confused' :)

Running a steam-powered generator to keep a couple of batteries charged up, and having the main drive as electric, could be made to work. You could think of it as a very small, fossil-fuel-powered version of the massive, nuclear-fuelled steam turbines that drive the generators of big Navy ships!

I had a look at the motor you posted earlier from HarborFreight. It is a single-phase induction motor with capacitive start. Unfortunately, this type of motor cannot easily be converted to a generator without a lot of heavy, expensive control circuitry (ie, a regenerative VFD, which would cost a few thousand bucks).

The MinnKota equivalent of that trolling motor you found would probably be a good match for a boat like this. These things are 12 or 24 volt, which is fairly easy to work with. Why not do the generation at this voltage, too?

I'd suggest giving your local auto wrecker a call to see if you can track down a used truck alternator with the same voltage as your chosen motor. Then run it with a belt drive from the steam engine. This would be fairly cheap and compact, and by playing with pulley sizes you can get both the steam engine and the alternator running at appropriate speeds. A 40 to 60 A, 12 V alternator would be comfortably driven by a 1 hp steam engine.

Please do keep us posted on how your project is coming. No doubt you'll have plenty more questions come up during the design and build process, we're here to help :)

Thank you Matt for your valuable input.
The steam engine we are talking about, will be able to deliver something like 200 or 300 Watt (I hope). Something like a motorbike alternator will be more suitable I think. Anyway if the steam engine is´nt able to propel the boat, our arrangement will be quite less. But having a akku between, charged by the steam engine, we could win (I hope). At least while holding the hook into the water, or having a picnic at the banks, the battery can recover.
Naturally we should´nt think or talk about efficiency, producing steam for charging batteries then electricity for propulsion.
But it is a demanding, and alternative project, so I like the challenge.
Regards
Richard

slutt for cray.......

You have a link?
R.
R.

[confused]

yah...http://www.universitetsavisa.no/ua_l...c9420.67787431. I figured it out though. !Slutt-шлюха! means the end in norwegian. дерьмо!! the link expired! Well, Knut Sand has it. yes! I can get away with cussing if it's in another language!

[masalai]

confused , Your efforts at learning and understanding boats and boating are to be commended and admired. - - - Your age is a concern, and, as a parent would appreciate your involvement is restricted to threads related to technical information necessary to your boating activities as a 12 year old.... and stick to English, as playing with babel fish is just an irritant and detracts from the value of this site for your benefit....

[confused]

how do I start my own thread? (malasai)

[masalai]

confused, go here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ then sort out which forum and then sub-forum (if exist) best suits your topic content.... When you have clicked to that forum/sub-forum you will see just above the list of threads in a button over the bar (new Thread) - click on that and you will be able to name the thread (keep this fairly brief but descriptive of content), and then put your first post defining what you seek and some helpful information on the details of the topic for discussion etc.... and I stand corrected, your gender is male and your age is 13 - OK

[confused]

My new thread is called designing houseboats. It is under boat designs.

[confused]

I don't want to ruin starling's thread anymore, so I created my own for us to discuss my project on. Anybody is welcome on there, but please do not ruin my thread!

[PAR]

If you're still into steam, you should strongly consider this engine, which can be built cheaply, at home and runs on relatively low pressure.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/3_cyl_5-28-07.gif

The problem with steam is the weight of fuel, which is substantial, not to mention the interior volume it eats up. Conventional steam engines aren't light weight either.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/licenses.htm

[apex1]

If you're still into steam, you should strongly consider this engine, which can be built cheaply, at home and runs on relatively low pressure.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/3_cyl_5-28-07.gif

The problem with steam is the weight of fuel, which is substantial, not to mention the interior volume it eats up. Conventional steam engines aren't light weight either.

http://www.greensteamengine.com/licenses.htm

sometimes you´re brilliant PAR................:D

[confused]

hEY APEX, GO TO MY THREAD. It's nice. wierd engine! i'VE seen 'em before.

[PAR]

I thought it was worth a look at, so I picked up plans and built a fairly big two cylinder version. It currently is running off a solar boiler, which provides free steam to the engine. I'll build a bigger one sometime soon to spin a 12 KW generator, which will relieve my electrical needs for the main house. Running 6 hours per day at full output, which is fairly easy in sunny Florida, I can generate 72 KWH. This is above my electrical needs 10 months out of the year for the house. The net result is I'll get a check from the power company each year for producing more electricity then I've used, meaning free with a touch of profit, just to make things worthwhile.

Richard, I'm always brilliant, just ask me, I'll straighten you out every time . . . :rolleyes:

[apex1]

Richard, I'm always brilliant, just ask me, I'll straighten you out every time . . . :rolleyes:

Thats quite nice to know, thanks.:D

[confused]

does it have a condenser so you don't have to refill the boiler?

[PAR]

I've installed a condenser, which just makes too much sense. The main issue I've had is mineral deposits, which I've mostly remedied with distilled water, filtration and a small pump. The next step up, is a solar/pneumatic system, which will eliminate the water all together. I'm having trouble getting enough pressure with a pneumatic setup, but I'm still tinkering.

[apex1]

I thought it was worth a look at, so I picked up plans and built a fairly big two cylinder version. It currently is running off a solar boiler, which provides free steam to the engine. I'll build a bigger one sometime soon to spin a 12 KW generator, which will relieve my electrical needs for the main house. Running 6 hours per day at full output, which is fairly easy in sunny Florida, I can generate 72 KWH. This is above my electrical needs 10 months out of the year for the house. The net result is I'll get a check from the power company each year for producing more electricity then I've used, meaning free with a touch of profit, just to make things worthwhile.


Paul, could you please deliver some additional info about your genny assembly? Rough figures or even estimations are just enough.
What size is the engine, is it the two cyl. kit? What size and type is your solar collector? Same question for your feeder pump. What about your steam temp. and or pressure?
Would be very helpful to learn from your experience with that arrangement. I could use a similar in a little hideaway in Asia.
Working on a water substitution sounds interesting. But plain air will not work. I would think about compressed air or co² first, due to higher density. In a closed loop naturally.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

Haha! look at my last post on the drivel thread! :) Also, go to MY drivel thred. Read the rules though please! http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/junior-drivel-thread-25979.html#post254092

[PAR]

Yes, the engine is the two cylinder and the piston is quite a bit larger in diameter then the stroke. I'm not sure about displacement. I'm running just barely over atmospheric with a parabolic reflector of faceted mirrors (36"). I could run much higher pressures, but then I'd have more issues. I'd rather go with displacement and low pressures, which keeps things simple and less breakable.

The pump was arranged to push cleaned, reclaimed or fresh distilled water up to the boiler, which is mounted on a pole at the corner of the back porch. The mirror has a stellar tracking motor on it, much like what you'd see on a home telescope, which tracks the suns path across the sky. This keeps the boiler good and hot from mid morning to late afternoon.

The pneumatic system will be pressurized (naturally), but I'm still working on ways to keep the pressure up. It'll use a boiler still, but the air gap will have a bladder that gets contains non-saturated air. As pressures rise in the boiler, a diaphragm compresses the bladder, which pressurizes the air. I'm having a control issue with the valve, but I'll get it worked out.

[apex1]

I'd rather go with displacement and low pressures, which keeps things simple and less breakable.
Thats one of the main advantages of this engine of course.
The pneumatic system will be pressurized (naturally), but I'm still working on ways to keep the pressure up. It'll use a boiler still, but the air gap will have a bladder that gets contains non-saturated air. As pressures rise in the boiler, a diaphragm compresses the bladder, which pressurizes the air. I'm having a control issue with the valve, but I'll get it worked out.
The whole installation using water (apart from sizes) is a self explaining thing, but this does not get into my imagination. Can you help with a little drawing?
After some 35 years in restoration and operation of steamships I thought there are no news, not much left to learn. What a fallacy.:(
Regards
Richard

[PAR]

Think of it as a pressure vessel with a diaphragm containing the air space. As the pressure builds, it pushes up on the diaphragm, a valve prevents the air in the adjacent chamber from escaping, so it is compressed by the expanding diaphragm. The valve releases the pressurized air into the distribution ports on the engine.

It took a surprising amount of math to get a handle on the size of the "containment" bladder and the valve timing, but it does work. Naturally, since I'm moving air, the boiler had to be considerably larger to provide the volume necessary.

I expect piston ring friction to increase, because the steam acts as a lubricant. I think a UMPE or HPPE (or other hydrophobic material) cylinder would solve this issue, possibly with rings of the same. I know of one engine like this that uses carbon cylinders.

My current research is toward a self contained electricity supplementation. You have to remain on the "grid", because it's solar, but if the unit is large enough, it'll provide more then you'll use in a day, so the excess is purchased by the power utility. A "net metering" coupling on your electric service meter is required to receive the benefits of the power generation. The ultimate goal is to produce a boxed unit, that can be placed on a property, hooked to a net meter and essentially remove the property from the grid, during peak usage hours.

I've also looked into the prospect of a geothermal displacement engine doing the same thing, except 24 hours continuous operation. If I could drill a deep enough hole, I could get a huge temperature differential and spin a huge generator. It would be more helpful if I lived over a hot spring or volcano.

[apex1]

Think of it as a pressure vessel with a diaphragm containing the air space. As the pressure builds, it pushes up on the diaphragm, a valve prevents the air in the adjacent chamber from escaping, so it is compressed by the expanding diaphragm. The valve releases the pressurized air into the distribution ports on the engine.
Got it!
It took a surprising amount of math to get a handle on the size of the "containment" bladder and the valve timing, but it does work. Naturally, since I'm moving air, the boiler had to be considerably larger to provide the volume necessary.
naturally!
I expect piston ring friction to increase, because the steam acts as a lubricant. I think a UMPE or HPPE (or other hydrophobic material) cylinder would solve this issue, possibly with rings of the same. I know of one engine like this that uses carbon cylinders.
Carbon / Epoxy Tube with 5% graphite powder in the resin.

I've also looked into the prospect of a geothermal displacement engine doing the same thing, except 24 hours continuous operation. If I could drill a deep enough hole, I could get a huge temperature differential and spin a huge generator. It would be more helpful if I lived over a hot spring or volcano.
Move to Iceland, drill 5 mtrs. deep in your backyard. Tataaaa. You should buy a Bank (about 1$ at present) to finance the task.
For the self contained el. supply: you naturally know "Redox Flow Cell" !? I used them for remote resorts.
http://www.isea.rwth-aachen.de/eess/technology/redox-flow/en
http://www.electricitystorage.org/tech/technologies_technologies_vrb.htm
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/vandium_reflux_.html
Thank you and
Regards
Richard