Future of Commercial Fishing?

[sharpii2]

What is the future of commercial fishing.

Will we be able to go on as we always have, making bigger and better boats that are ever more efficiant?

Or will we be forced to subject ourselves to some kind of artificial self limitation for sake of preserving the wild fish stocks?

If we do go for limitations, how should they be enforced? Who should do the enforcement? And how do we decide what kind of limmitations are best?

What kind of design ideas could domminate under a regime of forced limmitations?

Hope to hear all your comments, suggestions, and/or refutations.

Bob

[Skippy]

More likely, fishermen will overfish, cutting down the population,
frantically continue to overfish as the fish become harder to find, to stay ahead of their competition,
start starving and going out of business after the population is decimated,
possibly settle into a routine where all the remaining fishers pounce on the small populations that develop, again to beat their competition, thus keeping the population in a perpetually small, underproducing state.

Theoretically, there's an optimal population level that is stable and results in maximum production rates, but that state absolutely requires that catches be reduced any time the population temporarily drops below that level. The problem is that the profit-oriented microeconomics of competition provides no mechanism whatsoever for maintaining that situation. And to make it even worse, politicians favoring the industry will tend to emphasize things like fishers' "rights" to fish even though there's very little out there, and the short-term fix sabotages long-term prosperity. Of course, there's also the problem of regulating huge international bodies of water even if the industry could get themselves organized to try it.

Again, from a purely technical point of view, population dynamics can be modeled well enough to keep production up nicely. It's the politians and starving fishers who are more interested in making something happen TODAY, along with international competition, that create problems further down the road. The only reason a fish farm can keep its production up is because there's one boss deciding how things will done, REGULATING the rate of harvest rather than allowing individual workers to compete with each other by raiding the stock any time they get a chance. Good luck, it ain't an easy problem. :(

[SamSam]

What is the future of commercial fishing.

Will we be able to go on as we always have, making bigger and better boats that are ever more efficiant?
I wouldn't think so.
Or will we be forced to subject ourselves to some kind of artificial self limitation for sake of preserving the wild fish stocks?
I would think so.
If we do go for limitations, how should they be enforced? Who should do the enforcement? And how do we decide what kind of limmitations are best?
It would seem since it's sort of an "open range" when it comes to water on the planet and it pertains to one of the basic (food, shelter, clothing and something else) needs for humans, if not the most important one, the lack of which is an instinctual cause for unregulated war and mayhem, from the local( kill your neighbor) to the international (kill your neighbor), I would think it should be regulated from the local to the regional to the national to the international level. It's importance should be right up there with a well functioning United Nations.
What kind of design ideas could domminate under a regime of forced limmitations?
Fish farming will become much more important. Species that are considered throw back junkfish now will become commercially valuble in the future, perhaps a "soylint green" type of product will emerge, like a hotdog fish product, lips, fins, rectums in a tube. Perhaps we'll strain nutrients out of bottom muck, like carp.

Hope to hear all your comments, suggestions, and/or refutations.

Bob

SamSam

[Guillermo]

From my point of view, we will come someday to an equilibrium and so find and maintain a sustainable rate of exploitation of fisheries stocks. A lot of effort is being put into this by many nations, particularly in Europe, although it's not an easy task and for sure there is still a long way to go. But I'm confident we'll arrive there...somehow.

Fishing will still be necessary, as fishfarming has also its drawbacks (Sea pollution because of food and medicines in open waters farms not being the lesser). So, as I see things, fishing boats will still be necessary and they will have to be efficent machines designed to catch precisely the amount of fish they will be allow to, not more, under strict supervisions. And these efficient machines also will have to be more safe for their crews (Around 24.000 lives are lost every year among the world's fishing fleets) offering more humanized working and living conditions.

But fishing effort discipline and supervision is not an easy task and requieres a lot of consensus among nations, a deeper education among the fishermen and also big moneys put into regulatory and supervising methods.

The proof that it is not an easy task is that in the European Union one of the main ways of regulating the fishing effort is to limit the size of boats and fleets by means of using the GT (Gross Tonnage) of fishing vessels. To build a new boat, fishermen are not allowed to use more GT's than those of already existing vessels, that have to be previously retired from fishing by breaking them up. But they are not limited in the amount of GT they can use (They can buy GT from other fishermen), so two old and inefficient boats will become a bigger and more efficient one. And the owner of this bigger, more efficient and more expensive vessel, will struggle as far as possible to catch more fish, be it legally or illegally....Not very good.

On top of this, this GT regulation scheme is bringing boats designed to optimize fishing, processing and storing fish within a certain fixed size, so producing some ugly boats, overpowered, cramped and hydrodinamically terrifying. And worse than that, with a lack of stability in many cases. Specially among fishing boats less than 24 m of registry length. People is dying because this regulation is promoting certain 'suicidial' behaviour in fishermen. I can testify that.

A new regulation in the EU based on a system of licenses given for an strict amount of fish for every fishery, instead of the GT one is urgent, at the same time that a more effective method of making the fishermen to carry out with those regulations has to be put into effect.

Well, for sure all this is from a point of view based in my limited professional experience in Spain. I would appreciate very much to hear from other EU countries experiences, as well as from other nations the world around.

[safewalrus]

One of the main problems with individual countries (Including the much vaunted super state "European Union" is that whilst anone can regulate one's own people it is extremely difficult regulating some one elses without causing International offense and crisis, wars and the like. A typical set up being around the British Coastline where the British (England, and the Celtic Nations - Scotland, Wales, Ireland [N & S] Cornwall) fishermen are tightly controlled on what they land but when these boats are on down time because of quotas the fish is plundered by foreign vessels who are not on their own grounds and thus don't give a damn about what they take or the conservation angle. Weak cowardly governments who do not protect their own do not help! either the fish or the fishermen (and this in the long run includes the foreigner did he but realise it - but to be fair he has mouths to feed at home and must continue to fish to sustain HIS 'status quo'.

secondly the use of large nets (both bottom, surface and midwater) sweep up everything - nothing escapes due to the configuration of the net (no matter what the 'expert' tells you to the contary) thus even though the 'young' are thrown back they are usually dead either before or just after being returned to the water.

It would appear therefore that the only means of ensuring that the young stay to grow (but does not do much for the breeding fish) is to ensure that the young cannot physically be taken. the ONLY way to do this is a total ban on nets for a period - no matter how unpalatable this is! during this period 'Longlines' may be used to good effect to continue fishing to a certain extent! This ban must BE SUSTAINED by EVERY vessel in the area no matter who - if your found with a net in the water the crew will be removed from the offender (any polutant will also be removed) and the vessel be sunk immediately - no fines, being let off 'cos you don't come from round here or any other lame excuse! Your fishing illegally, crew and fuel off, BANG BANG your sunk, by force if need be!

Also of course the sophisticated equipment being used to find the fish these days should be removed and destroyed to give the fish a chance - simple echo sounders and other live saving equipment is of course allowed, but side sweeping sonar that would do credit to a Navy Submarine Hunter must go!

Harsh I know, but if the world is going to conserve fish stocks for future use this must be put in place without delay!

[safewalrus]

sharpii I'm right there with you on the dory idea,as you can see above (and on the hi-jacked place this forum came from - great idea this one but I fear you may have opened up a very large tin of worms from the money oriented so called fisherman (glad they call 'em fishermen and not seamen 'cos that's one thing most of em ain't - too dangerous!!) that chase fish these days!:(

[longliner45]

IN the gulf of mexico, east of the mississippi is flat mud bottom to the west coral reefs and rocky bottom .It takes about 20 years for a yellowfin grouper to get to 30 pounds. same for red snappers.another consequences of over fishing is mercury poison; we found that once the fish are gone the levels of mercury increase to a point that nothing will live, creating a barren desert. even after leaving what we thought was plenty of breeder stock. self regulation ;out of the question just wont happen. dock masters inspection during unloadingand boat confiscation for violators ...maybe. its probably to late to give allotments like kingcrab but a good thought. the best thing would be to cancle the fishery for10 years and check it for progress .last,as we speak we are killing off the rest of the fish in third world nations ;there is no local fish markets in the USA all of our fish are imported from Costa rica and Thailand ,some orange roughy from NewZealand and alaskan halibat and whiting.........per haps like safewalruss says ''one person maybe cant change anything but we can try..........longliner45

[D'ARTOIS]

It is very simple: I travel around a lot and in every harbour where I land I see those big factory ships which are the poachers of the seas, I have no tother words for them.

Fish today, is an expensive item and although here in the EU things are not running out of hand, I do not understand why those large trawlers are allowed anymore - 235 years ago I could launch my inflatable from the beach, go out for a day and came home with a catch that profited all the family in law for some weeks to go. That was then. Our sea at the front door is empty.

Ok, we have to live with that, however since the world population is growing at an ultyr-fast speed and no wars/plagues to keep the population at acceptable level what are the politicians going to do.

Once I was a graet optimist, nowadays - having seen almost everything detoriating at a fast pace, I have to go as far as to Oz to have some nice fishing.

Trouty, unleash your rods, here I come......

[Willallison]

The real problem isn't too few fish - it's too many people. Time we started putting a quota on them!

[trouty]

Yes, boat fueled, rods rigged and ready to go.

My plan is to mount a beaufort style gun on the foredeck, and we take out as many "people" as we can on the way out...to eliminate the demandd side of the fish equation...

How many you take out determines how big a bag limit of fish you can bring back - the more you eliminate from the demand side of the equation, the more fish you can bring home...

Works for me!:D

We start with the Indonesian Fishermen illegally plunderingour fish stocks!

Hows this for a "ïnternational situation"

After year before lasts dreadfull Boxing day Tsunami...which wiped out gazzilions of the blighters from our northern neighbours shores....we sent em billions of $ in foreign aid.

So - being Coastal fishing communities they built new fishing boats, and now raid our northern waters for trochus and shark fin....using boats we provided the $ for!:rolleyes:

So - we arrest them, abd burn their (our?) boats, and put em in jail for a few months before deporting them and flying them home (at our expense!).

While in jail - they get paid about $10 Aus a day - allowance under our incarceration legislation...which is about 3 times what they would have made if they had returned home with the trochus and shark fin to sell.

So it goes like this...

Come to Aus on a boat they buy for you, steal their fish, get caught and get good accom wth 3 square meals a day (better than home), and make more $ than if you fished and got away with it, arrive home with a free flight, and a pocket full of Aussie cash....with which you immmediately get another foreign aid grant to build another new boat and sail back to start all over again.

The crews they caught this week - some of the crew are on their 3rd conviction...(how many times they didn't get caught in between!

The subsistence Aboriginals who maketheir livelihoods from the Trochus report entire reef systems strpped bare of trochus in weeks...they are resorting to molotof cocktails thrown onto the indo boats..

It's a clusterphuk of monumental proportions...

Our Govts (Aus & Indo) do bugger ll about it...

The indo's havent forgiven us for kicking them out of Timor and stealing their timor sea oil & gas...and who can blame em - so they use our foreign aid - to frustrate us.

There will be a war in the not too disrtant future - between Aus and our northern indo neighbours. IMHO it is inevitable...Fishers are already taking itonn themselves to attack Indo boats in our waters, with machetes and firearms...it must come to war at some time.

So - my beaufort gun idea - has much merit I contend.

There is some talk of the govt paying us (commercial fishers) to patrol our northern waters while we fish - the indo problem is so large and intractible.

Fishin - shootin indo's - all sounds like good sport to me!;)

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Hey Trouty I'll go with that one! A people cull, sounds just what we need! As a matter of interest the Malaysian government also had some problems with Indonesia some forty years ago and recently Issued medals to the commonwealth forces that helped them! good on them! Your lads recently received theirs, and power to their elbows for that; meanwhile our stingy goverment said no, thus effectively slapping both the veterans and the malaysian goverment in the face - clever! the amazing thing was it was a Labour goverment who sent us guys to help (the only war against terrorism that won!) and we have a labour goverment in charge now! MMmmmmm! appears they've rescinded now but we still ain't got our medals (same as Russia with the Arctic convoy medals, and the fact that not a single soldier killed in our latest war has been greeted (body) by a senior member of the goverment on their return to burial - seems it's OK to send us to kill the filthy foreigner, just that the goverment is ashamed to admit it, which digresses a bit from the main subject but is in some strange way relavant!)

[trouty]

I hear exactly what your saying, and it doesn't surprise me in the least!

That said I fear we've drifted away from the main topic- the future of commercial fishing, which in iteslf is interesting enough that it should be allowed to continue without me further changing the topic / digressing from the original thread.

But I do hear you loud n clear....just say Vietnam all over again.:rolleyes:

Cheers & good luck with the medals issue!

[longliner45]

I was a commercial fisherman; ive been through the good times and the bad. Ive read the thread a few times.some have good ideas .But lets talk reality. ..the reality is ;put your self in a fishermans boots ,your world is taking care of your family and feeding the masses.on top of that boat payment , insurance, truck and house and everything that goes with it.Have you ever been in a spot were you felt so removed from the government that it didnt matter...Now the subject of killing foriegn fisherman.I was in Louisianna and Texes in the 80s those Vietnamies boys new just as much about killing as us,my boat had a few holes in it too,This dont do anyone any good,,,,,,,,,,,But hey ,Im talking to engineers ,marina owners , desiners and maybe some influantial people ,lets face it ,we are smarter than most because we own boats. Perhaps petitioning the government and having some solutions might do some good ....... go ahead close down some fisherys,let um recoup were adaptable we"ll get by ,besides ,we have patience I cant wait for the day to put deck reels on my boat..........longliner45

[seadogs20]

In the far North West of Western Australia (ashmore reef) just recently I saw over a 30 Indo fishing boats.Ispoke to a few guys off a customs vessel and they told me, they are allowed to fish in our waters, as long as they are under sail. Now picture a oz boat in Indo waters... I dont think so!!...We would be blown out of the water(rather that then there gaols) but if we the fishermen and gov's dont do something soon there won't be any decent fish left to catch.

[seadogs20]

Sorry Im an ex Fisherman:)

[safewalrus]

Longliner buddy, I know what your saying, remember that a lot of the frustration vented on his forum is just that frustration; and will probably not go much further - but if governments can't do (or won't do) what their elected for something has got to break! and as you said the poor bloody fisherman is the guy who's going to suffer because he's got look after his family, so in the long run he's the one who will end up doing something. We are all agreed that something has to be done and fast!

Just remember that for some of us the problem is quite close to home - in Cornwall some of our problems are the Spanish poaching 'our' fish! and Guillermo has already posted on this net as a representative of the other side! This could turn into a real bunfight if we aren't careful and neither of us wants that! I can already feel the blood rising just by thinking of it and I've only done a small amount of profesional fishing compared to you guys, yep it's hard, but if we don't do something soon there'll be nothing left; for anybody!

[atahawaii]

Society in general is not giving enough attention to the dwindling vital resources of the sea. This issue needs to have a higher priority in minds of society in general. More resources need to be redirected toward fishery policy enforcement and making better and fairer fisheries policies would help. Making changes in a beurocracy is like trying to turn a large ship, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of time, but it can be done.

[trouty]

I hear you 'bout them vietnamese - being more than capable of shooting back! :)

All the same - I can't help thnkin of a line from the Beverly Hillbillys, when Jethro...says to Granny (after being conscripted to go to vietnam)...

Jethro: Well, Granny - I'm fixin to go to vietnam to shoot me some vietnamese!

Granny: Well, don't be expectin me to be cookin em fer ya!

:D

Damn I like that show - always have and always will...Granny and Jethro - being my two favourite characters...

Another classic...from the movie of same name..

Jethro. Duck yer head Granny! (as he drives under the great big oak? tree and whacks grannys skull fair on the lowest limb - knocking her and her rockin chair clean off the back a that ol truck...)

Heck even my kids like Beverly Hillbillies, afullgeneration after it was made...

Where the heck are all the good shows these days - seemingly all my kids see n do is some kinda computer playstation shootemups things...I fear they will grow up with absolutely NO sense of humor! :rolleyes:

Cheers!

[D'ARTOIS]

I have never imagined such a situation, and I provide fishery-protection vessels!

I never imagine the Thai's going to fish in Oz waters - where are coastguards for?

The Tsunami aid did not at least arrive to make new boats. A few canoes has been distributed but no reports have coming in that any sizeable fishingboat has been donated, or paid for.

Nevertheless, here you have the political game. Believe me, the politician is your biggest enemy. The one that will be the first to deny you a decent income as well as life.

The first one that impounds you with uncounted regulations in order to stop you in your tracks, in favouir of????????????

A peculiar crowd of politicians have been raised from the '60-s and '70-s - the so called hippies.

Now they have provided themselves with easy jobs but their die-hard political ideas have remained. The slumbering danger that have spread all over the western world, apparently not only in Holland!!!

[safewalrus]

As I read somewhere else on one of these forums; "politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly - for the same reasons!" Now that guy had sense! :cool: But how do we get them to do something about the dwindling fish stocks?

Or is this a dream - politicians will help people!!:D :D :D :D

[D'ARTOIS]

Tell you something hilarious: on one of my coastal expeditions from Holland to the UK I was sailing under Hastings when I sighted a small trawler. BM and some thing was his number.
I thought it was a vessel from Boulogne, poaching in UK waters.
"Boulogne Sur Mer, Boulogne Sur Mer, F*** of, you are in British waters." I yelled in French. No reply at all and when we sailed along, no nothing moved on the boat although I repeated my message a few times more.

I told this story in Falmouth and the audience started to laugh at me.
"Why are you laughing at me? Did I do something wrong?"

"BM is Brixham, not Boulogne Sur Mer, they even haven't understood you."

[longliner45]

blowing off steam! on a web site like this!I dont know what your talking about:rolleyes: besides Im still apolgising on 2 other threads anyway'.how about this ........a global czar of fishing? or a comitty (is that spelled right)? sure alot of guys are gonna get hurt,but,,,its a solution,maybe, (for the betterment of us all sombodys got to lose,perhaps the well off countrys can subsidise the poor.Its like walruss says (ban the nets ) I say close down some fisherys and let um rest, now I gotta say this......here in ohio were Im from ..when the cops come they all come because I dont go down easy .....not bragging ...but when I think Im right I think Im right( usually get my own cell too !) Lets do something with our lives (make it count) get a little radical make some noise. But first lets organise longliner45

[longliner45]

One more cool thought .I think his name is Eion Hunter or Anderson from the (band Jethro tull) he has a salmon farm on a river ;he has severall big swimming pools,and has created a cycle of salmon; you hatch the eggs .insimiat a sent ,release the fish they, swim away into the sea and come back to were they were born ............pretty cool!!! huh

[trouty]

I hear You long liner...

Radical intervention? too late...someone already thought of it...ahh whatsis name again - yeah thats it Green Peace or summut - sails down to antarctica and rams the Japanese whaling ships...in some kinda steel ice breaker or something - skippers some crazy dude - goodness knows how he's kept his skippers ticket with all the collisions he has! :confused:

Maybe it's coz he's in international waters and no one has jurisdiction to take it away from him. Funny thing is the people love it Green peace survives on public donations from folks who WANT civil disobedience as a way of bringing about radical change!

Makes ya wonder how such a radical bunch can survive in todays world - they must be in someones pocket - no doubt the oil oligarchy probably use em for their own nefarious ends...under the guise of "ënvironmentalism".....and no doubt for the $ they are happy to be so used - or they simply wouldn't have survived in todays "shrub" benevolent dictater world! ;)

Yes a new Fish stocks lobby group... Fish Scales (hey - it works for green peace!)..

We'd need a bumper sticker slogan tho - "land rights for Gay whales oughtta do it (sorta encompasses all the hippie agenda's in one statement....hey it's better than the bumper sticker I saw today on the way to work...

Dyslexia found cure! :confused: Whats with that anyway? :D

Go get em longliner...the fish are counting on you!

I often wonder about the need tho - for total closures on a species - such drastic action certainly works - but is it really necessary or could other measures (quota's / reduced harvests / slot sizes / closed seasons(Spawning aggregations for eg) or min sizes & bag limits achieve the same outcome?

IFM (Integrated Fisheries Management) is the latest craze downunder...where "the resource is assessed, valued and the estimated sustained yeild harvest % is distributed between recreational and professional fishers.

Any changes with growth of a sector (such as increasing rec fishers due to population growth requires they BUY a share back from commercial fishers who have been traditionally allocated that share of the resource.

Another timely issue downunder is resource rents....paying the community a royalty on volumes of fish harvested commercially.

Heck - wiith a volume related sliding scale of royaltie system - stocks could be protected from exploiutation by making them to dear to catch above a certain quota figure!

At the moment - the whole emphasis of commercial fishing is that it's a free resource that no one owns and the "best"(read most efficient) fisher makesthe most "honest living"sheckles per year due to his efforts, skill, knowlege...

This along with the fiscal imperative (Satisfying the banks / investors / govts) - is whats killing the resource (read goose that lays the golden eggs!).

Why as a species - do humans think they can consistently ask of mother nature (this earth) more than she can ecologically sustained yeild to us - wothout consequence?

When in life did we come to believe in the fairys at the bottom of the garden / father christmas / easter bunny idea, that life is a free ride...and that our lives are full of endless free lunches?

The earth will strike back (heck it already is) and wipe us out like the species specific plague/virus we are upon the face of the earth.

The earths survived this long - with a few simple rules (like the school of hard knocks) - that keeps everything in balance.

If we are stupid enough to believe we will keep on getting away with this wanton destruction of the life support system that created and sustains us....the natural evolution demands that our numbers and capabilities to harm, be culled sufficiently to preserve that life support system.

The day it comes - people have the temerity to ask..."why me?" :rolleyes:

I reckon I know....

Cheers!

[FAST FRED]

One reason why fishing tends to overfish is the boats are an asset that exists.
Probably a new boat would not be built for some poor fisheries , but having the boat , another trip or 300 is not costly , and there could be a profit.

For the folks having a hissy fit over "depleated fisheries", the cure is really simple.

GO PURCHASE a fishing boat (with your OWN CASH) and scrap it.

1 down , 2,000,000 to go!

Just don't demand others to pay for your fantisies to "save " the world.

FAST FRED

[sharpii2]

HOLY COD!!!!

No wonder my moma told me not to play with matches!


Here's a REAL unpopular idea. A REAL United nations. One where NOBODY gets veto power. Not even U.S.

This is an international problem that can be solved by the collective (I know how some of you hate this word. I read Ayn Rand, too) will of all the worlds sea faring nations. Or vigilantes of every stripe and color may appear on the scene.

Think "Water World (C)" with mines and torpedoes.

If a boat's capability was limited, (and power, the ability to do work, is, in my mind, the best limitation) I think three things would happen: 1.) boats would become less expensive, 2.) The rules would be easier to enforce, and 3.) because the lower capital outlay needed to play, large corporate players would be discouraged from entering the game.

To be done right, there would have to be a lengthly 'phase in' period so the poor blokes can pay off their loans and the new 'aproved' fishing methods can be instated.

None of this would be pleasant. But I think the alternative will be much less so.

Just like a new century. Comes in with the promise placid prosperity for all and ends up a notty tangle of thorny issues.

[safewalrus]

sounds good - Ban Nets, ban boats bigger than a certain size, ban sophisticated gear (sounds like the Falmouth Oyster fishery - only done by sailing or rowing vessels at certain times, It does actually work! They can motor to and from the grounds but can ONLY sail/row whilst fishing) Now make it global! Developing nations are into subsistance fishing so they have no problems! Every body else better had be soon or get sunk/scrapped if they don't comply!:D

All we gotta do now is Police it! aye, there's the rub!:rolleyes:

Or we could let nature do it! All the "Natural disasters" of 2005 is nature's way - a people cull - this is OK until it's your turn! Not that you'd have a choice! :cool:

What a smashing (literally) prospect for a brave new world!:cool:

[longliner45]

the earth is already striking back ...more shark attacks ,they are looking for food too,....modifing boats wont do it ,because the skipper will just make more trips . and you guys are right , it will just make dangerous boats.as far as that go`s every commericial boat is set up like that...you just make more trips,,,,,,,,,,when I was a fisherman,I would go fishing ,,come home ,unload ,make repairs load up fuel ,bait,ice grocerys and gear, wheather permitting .leave within 24 hrs for another week ,,,,,,,maybe thats why she left me ,,,,for that homo., (ahem)there `s some solitions.....sail is a good one. maybe restictions! perhaps the gulf for example,,,,,,, one year fish the east one year the west something......as for fast fred,Im sure your a good guy ,but read my history,put the crackpipe down ......and get serious love longliner

[longliner45]

there are boats in the cheasapeake bay virginia ;oyesterboats that is ;swimmin pools ,movie stares,black gold texas tea............... anyway these boats have ben rebuilt one plank at a time , they are sailboats from 1800s ,and they are beatifull and it works for them ....................what Im saying is .......ther are solutions ( if we put our heads together we could come up with something

[seadogs20]

I agree there are solutions,but we have to get off our arse's and do somethin, NOW!!!.........Oh, by the way, I'm not some tree huggin hippie type
:) Not that there is anything wrong with tree huggin hippie type's:)

[trouty]

hippies huggin trees - really i don't.

I especially like the ones who hug the trees really hard...I mean really hard - both arms wrapped around so tight and fingers of both hands interlocked so that the fingers go white...

It's best they hang on really tight, coz, when I get thru scarfing it and backin it down - i really love to hear em yodelling for help as I scream "tiiiimmmmbbbeeerrr"..

That make a few nasty gurgling noises after they hit ground, but if you have your stihl brand orange ear muffs on tight and rev up ya stihl chainsaw real loud a few times - usually they've gone quiet by the time it idles down again!
:D

Course the ones what won't let go even after they are dead are a problem - ya hafta saw up those lags straight away before they start to stink the place up a bit...

The pieces are easey enough to peel off once you break the log down into lumber!:cool:

Yup yup yup - I don't mind tree huggin hippies one bit!

Cheers
(he says as he walks away hummin the tune "I'm a lumberjack & i'm OK..."):p

[FAST FRED]

"there are boats in the cheasapeake bay virginia "

But there not responsable for the disaperance of the oysters , the lubbers are.

The Chessy drains a HUGE!! area of land with the fertilizer , and lawn chemicals for miles and miles in every direction draining in and depleating the 0-2.
AS does sewage , rain runoff ect.

To restore the water "Only" requires the banning of lawn chemicals for say 300 miles in every direction. Some chance!

The chicken farmers also will need to clean up their acts.

They purchase tons of grain and turn it into chickens and FERTILIZER, which has no value as its too costly to return to the grain fields where commercial mfgd fertilizer is used. Fee chicken crap anyone?

The solution is to use hearty Chinese oysters ,that can thrive in marginal waters, but again the hissy fit crew gets upset.

FAST FRED

[safewalrus]

The other solution is to let iran build a few nukes - that f***ing nutter will use 'em so we lets old blugh (our nutty warmunger) and your fella, whats 'is name, cactus rose or something to do with flowers get there first nuke 'im nuke each other KABOOM end of world.

Nature can then start again, and maybe get it right next time! Bit drastic I know, but it would work..................eventually!:rolleyes:

[longliner45]

fast fred you are right! there are multiple problems with it all. you guys on this site are pretty smart ,,,,even walruss!,,,,,,,somebody must be doing something now .who? the squeaking wheel gets the grease.does anyone know who to contact? lets do it ,and stop talking about it/ ,,, if we dont get the results we want /well go another rought.....maybe the solutions are easier than we think;rembereeeer buerocrats understand paperwork and polls more than us as we say in southern Ohio( lets start seein' the brains!!!!!!!!!!!

[longliner45]

I know freddys smarter than me ,cause he can spell [oyster]right the first time longliner.

[seadogs20]

HAHAHAHAHA,Goood one Trouty....But seriously, there is no solution, the pollies wont do anything, they cant it's a multi billion dollar industry.Imagine any pollie in any country tryin to stop or drastically reduce fishing quoters..it's not going to happen....the only time it will, is when there are no more fish to fish.....

[trouty]

I believe you are most likely correct.

The ocean belongs to no one and many of the cultures that surround ours, believe in raping it (because they have no other option - with their large populations and few natural resources!).

The Ocean although vast - is NOT as prolific in life as we mistakenly think. Like the land - there are some very vast area's of ocean - that are essentially marine deserts.

Sure -we find fish in such places occasionally - but usually near some point of reference for the fish - a large coral outcropping etc (basically an oasis in the middle of the marine desert)..and we catch a swag of fish there.

Many make the mistake of assuming the whole oceans are like that - and they certainly are not.

We can and do very easily fish out our oceans of enough lifeforms to put species on the brink of extinction. International ocean going processing factories don't help.

But - essentially - the richest areas are the shallow benthic zones near land - where sunlight enters the water and weed / algae etc grow which kicks off the food chain. We live in those areas too - right alongside the food factories of the ocean - the shallow benthic zones.

We pour our polution out into these food factories - we overfish them - right down to juvenile stocks before they have even had a chance to spawn, on our doorsteps.

Now we are harvesting krill for goodness sakes....

When we get to eating that low down on the food chain - you know collapse of our species population is imminent..

We know the dangers & we clearly know the consequences of our actions - yet we keep on doing the exact things that cause the problem.

If it's not New Clear War that gets us - or wars over the last oil reserves...then sure as eggs collapse of the planets life systems (read the air we breath) - will certainly get us in the end.

The "trick" - if you like - is to enjoy it while you can and be the last rat off the sinking ship!:D (Taking all the cheese with you!) ;)

Cheers!

[JPC]

As Trouty points out, the seas are vast and basically un-regulated (or un-regulate-able). One angle on the issue is the "tragedy of the commons" which is basically a dilemma of racing to extract a finite resource because if you don't, someone else will, and you lose.

I thought about commenting on this thread soon after it started, and my basic comment was that legal/economic/political solutions are VERY difficult (and something that I work on a lot and am trying not to bore everyone with). There are global forums, and there have been agreements, but we are still stuck with the issues of (i) "you can't tell me what to do", (ii) the costs of supervision and "imposed" inefficiency, and (iii) allocation of cost (i.e. fishermen are unemployed, fish costs more in the market, taxpayers foot some new regime, etc.).

So, thinking to spare everyone from my legal/political angle, I was also thinking about the Chesapeake skipjacks and what an elegant solution they represented (w/r/t oysters). Especially -on this forum- since the solution promoted historic sailboats. But before I hit "send" on my message, I thought that I'd better look it up, and I found that, in fact, there are many of the same location/volume/manner/permit restrictions on Chesapeake oyster harvesting as we're talking about with open seas fishing - so I held back. I'm not a fisherman; I thought I had an example of a particular solution that, while in a specific application (i.e. no foreign invaders), worked; I was, at least, half wrong, so I didn't send; waste of everyone's time for any of us to be too clever by half.

Enforcement is a cost item. It's easy to say that "someone should [_____] (fill in the blank), and it's usually true, but the allocation of that expense, both enforcement/monitoring cost and loss of revenue needs to be allocated (new cost), and it's hard to do that efficiently. Plus people get pissed off (new cost).

A true, working solution needs to be a lot more natural than just rules. It has to work for the people who have spent money on their fishing boats and earn their livelihood through fishing, and its costs of monitoring/maintenance should not eclipse its net return.

Doing a little reverse-engineering, I would say that any solution means that fish-products are more expensive in the market - I think that's OK. But the trick is to determine where that extra revenue goes: is it compensating fishermen for fishing in a less efficient manner; is it paying the new fish-police or the related lawyers/lawmakers; is it financing fish farms or protected zones.......?

There are some interesting parallels in energy and pollution -both, also, a "common" resource. There has been some very good progress on carbon-credits, pollution allocations, etc. that might inform a solution for the fishing issue.

I think I've broken my earlier effort to spare you all my long thoughts (sorry!), but I'd be interested to hear -from you who are closer to the water on the fishing issue- how you think revenue, costs and burdens could be allocated. (i.e. what would actually work for fishermen).

Regards,
JPC

[safewalrus]

Yes and No, that's the trouble with this subject (like most conservation subjects). Yes something should be done, and No not by me as 'me & mine' will suffer!

the trouble is we will all suffer in the long run if something is'nt started NOW. OK there are some places and instances where a start has been made and is quite effective, but these tend to be in areas where close control can and is maintained mainly thro' the geography of the place! The Fal and Chesaspeake oyster fisheries immediately spring to mind. Closely controlled by the fishermen whose livelyhood can be affected. But these area's and fishing can easily be controlled due to remoteness from other types of fishing and fishermen.

Area's under the 'control' of the EEC are kind of controlled but 'poaching' is so widespread to make it totally pointless, both from the preservationist and the local fishermans viewpoint! Whilst in these situations the average (there will always be few idiots in any society no matter what - 10% or thereabouts normally) local fisherman knows and will attempt to look after 'his' stocks. But when a bunch of 'out of towners' comes stealing what is a guy to do -after all if someone is going to have it it may as well be me! Get what I can for my family NOW!

As I've said before my view is that a widespread total ban of a particular style of gear/fishery is the only way forward! e.g. 'ban all nets from anywhere' one penalty only, any vessel found, at sea, with nets onboard is immediately scuttled, no matter the flag either carrying or scuttling. then we will get somewhere! Five years is all we need! then return to a proper controlled environment (patrolled and controlled by the fishermen themselves). Unfortunately this requires everybody in the world to co-operate. With the state of modern politics no chance!!!!

Alternatively each country MUST take charge of it's own destiny and tell the world how it will control it's own waters in future - and do it! It worked for Iceland in the sixties and seventies! It can again!

the world knows the choice!

"I don't suffer from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it!"

the Walrus:p

[Guillermo]

The best histories of fisheries recovery and sustainable fishing in my home land's waters (Galicia), have been those where fisherman organized themselves to look after the fishing grounds, for sure with the help of authorities for fining and pursuing infractors, etc. Probably this is the best way in coastal waters. More difficult is what happens in international waters, because enforcing the law there is much more difficult; although there are several producers organizations working closely with scientific institutions and authorities on auto-regulations for certain fisheries, that are beginning to attain some encouraging results.
But it's not going to be an easy task...

[safewalrus]

The best histories of fisheries recovery and sustainable fishing in my home land's waters (Galicia), have been those where fisherman organized themselves to look after the fishing grounds, for sure with the help of authorities for fining and pursuing infractors, etc. Probably this is the best way in coastal waters. More difficult is what happens in international waters, because enforcing the law

Or go pinch other people's fish!:mad:

[Guillermo]

Or go pinch other people's fish!:mad:

Hey, Walrus! I'm the Eggman...! I haven't go pinching anywhere! :)

[safewalrus]

Guillermo, appoligies, not you personally of course but there are (and have been) vessels from your part of the world seen dragging nets round ours!

And none of this getting your own back for Cadiz (Drake) or Trafalgar (Nelson) and many others! But I guess it might be worth a try! ;)

[Guillermo]

...And none of this getting your own back for Cadiz (Drake) or Trafalgar (Nelson) and many others! But I guess it might be worth a try! ;)

In Vigo (my born town) we do not care a lot about Cadiz or Trafalgar, you know... Our pride has rather been more hurt because of the Vigo Bay battle (1702) where the english-dutch army (Rooke) sunk the "Silver Fleet" and stole from us a nice part of its treasures....Maybe that's why some galician fishermen still go nowadays to UK waters to commit piracy...;)

[safewalrus]

From the naval viewpoint we were about evenly matched, but you were in a fortified harbour, this gives you a slightly better advantage AND you managed to get most of the Silver away (or you lost it). Not very good really! Shame on you for loosing all that money (Ok not you personally but you know what I mean!)

But a million in silver is not to be laughed at, time we got some more

the Walrus :D

[Guillermo]

Walrus, I think you are missing the point:

We, Galicians, were robbing as much as we could from the treasures that were being disembarked from the Spanish galeons, because of the threat of another anglo-dutch fleet, commanded by admiral Cloudesley Shovel.

Only the part of the Spanish King had been disembarked, following orders of the Queen María Luisa. We, Galician people, kept for ourselves a rewarding piece of it, by means of the sudden and inexplicable dissappearing of many the 1200 ox-carts in the Galician woods. (On his side, the french admiral Château-Renault became also inexplicably rich after taking care of the King of France's -The Sun King- part).

So, here we were, Galicians, anxiously waiting for the 'Council of Indies' permisssion to disembark the really big bunch of the treasures (corresponding to entrepreneurs, merchants, etc), to rob it too and so become really rich. The council designed Juan de Larrea to come to Vigo and decide what to do.

Galician people were so happy waiting for Larrea's decision, you know, when suddenly this guy, Rooke, who was obliged to retire from the siege to Cadiz (may his soul burns in hell! Why didn't he conquer Cadiz?), in his frustration decided to come after the Silver Fleet and enter Vigo Bay to perform such an unfriendly action against Galicians, sinking OUR ;) treasure and taking away part of it. We have been diving for centuries to recover whatever possible! What a mess!

And he even was so incompetent to allow the 'Santo Cristo de Maracaibo', one of the richest galeons he was tugging off the Vigo's Bay, to sank with almost all its treasures in such deep waters that we have not been able to find it up to now! We were robbing so happily and nicely, and this guy came in and complicated everything. Blame on him! :mad:

So, do you understand now this Galician fishermen issue in UK waters....?

By the way, I still have a couple of millions in silver in my pocket right now, so you can come for them....:D

[longliner45]

OK I have an idea,,,,we can secure some prime time on tv wrestling and have a CAGE match with walruss and gilly...sell tickets ,,donate the proceeds and save the fish!,,,IM sencing some friction there,,,,,,,,im sure its all good!speaking of prceeds what does GreenPeace do with their money ! and I would like to here from one of them on this site.

[safewalrus]

Ah that Green Pea-ce soup, once it used to have only peas in it now it's full of dolphins and whales and other stuff!

Guillermo - ah now I've got it! What your saying is that ALL Galicians are nothing but a bunch of thieves (always were, are and will be!), would even steal from their own mothers and but for the fortitious arrival of an Anglo-Dutch fleet who they immediately blamed for their thieving ways and thus avoided the fate they so richly deserved, that of being hung as traitors by the divine King of Spain. You should be praising George Rooke and his fleet as saints, not condeming them! But that is what we have come to expect from the 'Dons' in general is it not.

Actually we already knew this; I was just trying to be nice to you - obviously a waste of time!:rolleyes:

There are further platitudes I could continue with but I just can't be bothered!:D :D

BillyDoc wherever did you get the idea from that gilly and I were anything but good friends - we just wouldn't turn our backs on each other is all!:rolleyes:

[Vega]

As I've said before my view is that a widespread total ban of a particular style of gear/fishery is the only way forward! e.g. 'ban all nets from anywhere' one penalty only, any vessel found, at sea, with nets onboard is immediately scuttled, no matter the flag either carrying or scuttling. then we will get somewhere!


I agree with you.

I live near the 2nd biggest fishing port in Portugal (Peniche) and fishermen here have the opinion that the worst damage, by far, is done by trawlers dragging nets. Most of them are Spanish, even if nowadays you have also some Portuguese boats. I am sure that if they had the power they would forbid that kind of fishing, at least in coastal waters.

Here they fish mostly Sardines, and that is made with nets, but not dragging, they make a circle and close the net. That way they catch only what they have seen on the sonar, I mean only sardines of a certain size. They also use traps for octopus and "aparelhos" lines with a lot of hooks that also catch only what they are meant to catch.

[safewalrus]

Vega - Yes the Portugese are something completely different. Normally fish in the old ways because they like to! Also they realise that fishing goes on for ever and we/they must conserve the stocks! whilst I adovcate the banning of ALL nets (mainly dragged behind big noisy 'tractors' (well you can't call them boats can you?). There are certain species that cannot be caught (because of the size of their mouths etc) by line. The best of these are the Sardine/Pilchard/Anchovy/Whitebait - catching the whole school only in a seine is probably the only way to go - having said that obviously a close season needs to be tightly controlled!

And our Spanish 'friends' kept well away!:D

[Guillermo]

Gotcha! :D :D Am I feeling some lack of sense of humour?

[safewalrus]

Hey I'd even break my own rules to 'sort' a Spaniard

devious little buggers, as you've just proved

double gotcha:D :D :D

[longliner45]

just tried to contact greenpeace I couldent do it Im not to computer literate could one of you smart guys try it? longliner45

[trouty]

ecological practices at sea that I have personally witnessed, is by Scallop trawlers.

They basically need soft mud bottoms to trawl becuase that seems to be where the scallops congregate - to feed on all the deitrus (decaying weed etc) that settles in such area's - thus creating the soft ooze bottom. Prawns & other such species - likewise seem to like such bottoms.

Mrs troutys bottoms soft and oozy come to thik of it - but I don't like it much - maybe I'm not a scallop or prawn, but now I think about it maybe I'll find some there if i take the time to look - but i digress! :D ;)

So - these Scallop trawlers - trawl the soft mud bottoms.

Trouble is - sometimes they don;t catch enough and sometimes - theres more trawlers / nets than there is soft mud bottom full of scallops.

But - these guys have a solution.

They act like farmers - and prepare (plow) "new ground".

Prepairing new ground is a euphemism...that "sounds politically acceptable" for:-

Destroying the coral habitat that existed there before!

Yes, Pair trawlers, drag heavey chain along between them - destroying every bit of coral growth that might in the future snag a net and stop them harvesting scallops. So - like farmers removing the rocks from their paddocks - they "prepair new ground - by destorying habitat that contains fish, lobsters and all sorts of other aquatic creatures, in order to make a new harvesting ground - available for next year.

Some of the scallop guys I know personally - actually have onshore aquacultuure facilities - where they breed scallop spat (juvenile scallop shell) and they then go and "seed" the new (and previously harvested) Scallop grounds.....ready to let them grow out and be harvested next year.

One family alone (with 3 boats) make about $5 million / per boat per year this way.

What "incentive" do they have NOT to destroy marine habitat?

I've seen them prepairing new ground in world heritage listed area's.

I've given details (times dates boat details etc) to the relevant Fisheries ministers..in person - only to see them roll their eyes - and do nothing.

One presumes, those who make such a kiling are large donors to both political parties - and to try and stop them would not be possible.

There will be no fish - greeneace or no greenpeace.

The Fiscal imperative ensures their demise.

Cheers!

[longliner45]

trouty;you seem well verst !it seems to be a 50-50 mix of guys that know whats going on ;(on this perticular tread),greenpeace seems to have deep pockets, I would like to here from them to see what thier input might be and or(what they have going onabout the plight of fisherman),,,,,,NOT TRYING TO LURE THEM IN FOR CRITISISME,,,,but for intellegent conversation. Longliner

[trouty]

I would say it should be possible to get at least a spokesperson for greenpeace to give us some input to the thread, surely a google search can turn up a contact to invite to participate?

Thats if Jeff agrees of course ( it is HIS site afterall).

Knowing whats going on is one thing, but it purtspeople in a difficult situation...spilling te beans is - in some cases a question of biting the hand that feeds you. You get this sort of info by working for the commercial fishing industry, because they do seem to make (and lose) large sums of money.

Even the pro fishermen can't agree among themselves over many issues...

For example - those who winge loudest about Scallop trawlers detroying coral by preparing new ground, are pro rock lobster fishers, who may have been setting a few pots on a small outcrop of coral for one or more generations - harvesting say .5 of a tonne of lobster from it - per year for the last 40 years.

Lets say they rock up at the beginning of the season ands go to drop the usual few pots - only to finsd the lump - "gone" vannished from their sounder altogether. They KNOW they are on the right spot - their GPS tells them so...

But - no lump - & hence no lobsters - now or forever more.

They get rightly cranky...

When it's a whole football field of coral lumps so dissapeared - they are downright angry enough to go sink a few Scallop Trawlers.

But,

How does anyone get the Pro Lobster people on side...

They can't support greenpeace - because likely - greenpeace probably have an ecological stance - whereby pro lobsters pots are blamed for decimating coral communities...dropping ballasted traps onto delicate stag horn coral lumps day in and day out eventually has to destroy them - flatten / wipe them out....even if they do to a small extent re grow when damaged.

In our state foe eample - 600 pro lobster fishers, setting and hauling an average of 100 traps a day, (60,000 pot sets a day) times an 8 months season..(say 260 days)...thats 15,600,000 pot sets a year.

What amount of cooral community damage is done by the pro lobster fleet?...in comparison - to the "preparing new ground" activities of the scallop trawlers?

(Or the prawn trawlers etc etc)...

Basically - it seems to me - that the sheer scale of almost ANY commercial fishing industy determines that it must be deleterious to the resource.

And don't for a minute believe that Fish farming is the solution!

Fish farming alone is probably the single WORST environmental risk for our oceans (with some reatively benign exceptions - pearl farming for example)

Tis a very difficult situation to even get a handle on.

I once led a campaign, of recreational anglers against the long lining of marlins. We used an email / computer campaign - and convinced the seafood purchasers of the two major supermaket chains in our nation to buoycott sales of marlin steaks - in order to try and decrease demand for this product and so convince the fishers not to target them deliberately.

It was successful insofar as it stopped the supermarket chains buying / onselling the product, BUT - basically the wholesalers just exported it...so the fishing effort continued unabated! It gets labelled as something else etc - theres ALWAYS someone in this world will buy seafood product.

I could even relate stories of guys who raided french territorial waters for Lobster and got away with many many $millions in just 6 weeks.

They got greedy and went back for a second helping and got caught! The French shot their boat out from under them (in international waters, while they were attempting to make a run for it).

They did time on Reunion island - before escaping.....on wind surfers, and meeting up with a trawler at a pre appointed time / place for the trip home - some of them are still wanted in French courts...

The international ocean are a big issue that we here on boat design.net won't fix with a short thread or two i fear.

And a few here probably owe their liveihoods to the commercial industries and vessels designed manufactirerd to service them.

I know for one - at times - my income has derived from the commercial sector in one way or another.

Cheers!

[longliner45]

trouty,,,,your right man

[Guillermo]

I may add that even long-lining may become a very bad thing, by killing turtles and other species, as well as overexploiting fisheries also.
Something like 25 years ago I went to Mexico (working for an Spanish well known boatyard, Rodman) to build, run and manage a boatyard in Puerto Morelos, close to Cancún. Some of the boats produced there went to a second firm, owned by the same investors, to form a fleet to fish (longlining) sharks in the Caribbean, as it was said to be a good business. Well, this fishing company was broken in two years because there were just not enough sharks in the Caribbean for an industrial exploitation! Japanese fleets regularly came and laid hundreds of kilometres of longlines, slaughtering sharks and other species, so populations were in a very bad situation. And there were not statistical data at all on this, becasause the Japanese fleets didn't release their catchs info.
So I think its is not a matter of the goodness or badness of a particular fishing system, but the use it is made of it.
Simply banning fishing or a particular method is a most difficult issue, because as was said by other posters here, there are too many commercial and political factors into it. So, on top of legislation, enforcing, etc., maybe the name of the game is education, education, education...?

[longliner45]

economics tends to take care of it , I loved making a living fishing,But if you cant make a profit ,you must leave. Also with all the natural disasters wiping out fishing fleets ,,(katrina),I enjoy talking to you guys about it,,,,,,,,even get carried away a little.I would like to think that those who were fisherman would solve it.but fishing has always been a cut throte game.and I think i did all I could do,....(.never wasted a fish ) tried to conserve stocks. but thers always that hungry mouth out there No easy money and no free ride(and no end in site) but I look back to my beautifull emerald coast now ther are no fleets of longline boats or any other for that maybe now the fish are getting that break they need!

[safewalrus]

Remember Gilly - you can't educate pork!:rolleyes:

Or anything else that is not interested! Including pirates and freebooters and others of that ilk!:rolleyes:

[Vega]

Simply banning fishing or a particular method is a most difficult issue, because as was said by other posters here, there are too many commercial and political factors into it. So, on top of legislation, enforcing, etc., maybe the name of the game is education, education, education...?

Education means nothing if someone (less educated but not stupid) can make a big profit of it. Or you mean...education for the politicians? Then I guess you are right. We need to get rid of the "smart" politicians and get intelligent ones, but I guess it is going to take a while.:rolleyes:

So I think it is not a matter of the goodness or badness of a particular fishing system, but the use it is made of it.


Here I strongly disagree. Any method, targeted to catch some kind of fish but that brings harm to the ecological system where they live should be banned. Trouty has given the example with the Scallop trawlers and I can give you the example of the Huelva (south of Spain) trawlers. There are a lot of them (still) living difficult times, many of them poaching in Portuguese waters.
They fish in shallow waters with sand bottom, so they drag their huge nets in the sand, revolving the ground and damaging the entire eco-system, killing in the process lots of marine life. They catch in their nets (and sell, I don't know how) tiny fish (baby sardines and baby mackerel). You can eat them in all the local restaurants.
Of course, it's a suicidal course, they are in trouble to earn a living now, and they will finish bankrupt and unemployed, after killing all their stocks.

Their neighbors in Portugal have ghosen another strategy, they have taken advantage of the reasonable conditions offered by the EC to "finish" with their (large) boats and have opted for a lot less industrial fishing. Now they fish in very small boats (1 to 3 fishermen by boat) using traditional "artes" ,that are a lot more enjoyable for them and a lot less detrimental to the ecological system. They don't need to pay huge money to mortgage the boat, the diesel and several crew members, they are the owners of their boats and don't have big bills to pay.
Their success (and their ecological sustainability) is measured by their huge numbers. Every time I pass in front of Faro/Olhão I have to be very careful because there is no way you can avoid them. Hundreds of small boats that are scattered from the coast to 3 or 5 miles out (shallow deeps).

That's a story of success that will end when the EC finish with the Moratoria that prevents the Spanish from fishing in our waters. Then the Spanish will come with their trawlers and in short time, they will make this coastal waters as deserted as their own, just postponing for a while their suicidal course.

So Guillermo, that's why I don't think that "...its is not a matter of the goodness or badness of a particular fishing system...". I think that in this case is just that.;)

[sharpii2]

I may add that even long-lining may become a very bad thing, by killing turtles and other species, as well as overexploiting fisheries also...
...So I think its is not a matter of the goodness or badness of a particular fishing system, but the use it is made of it.
Simply banning fishing or a particular method is a most difficult issue, because as was said by other posters here, there are too many commercial and political factors into it. So, on top of legislation, enforcing, etc., maybe the name of the game is education, education, education...?

I agree entirely.

It's not the method that's bad, its the scale.

Take long lining for example. If the line is a few hundred yards long, that's one thing. Having one miles long is quite another. By limiting the capability of the boats, one can hope to either limit the range of the fleet or limit its power. Room for stores for a long outing, presumably under sail (the one way to get around a strict hp limit as far as vessel size goes), the less room and capacity there is to store fish.

Imagine a dragger that was limited to only 50 hp. Its net would be ridiculously small. And the boat would probably be slow too, having only, say, 1 to 2 hp per ton to work with. It would take longer, maybe 1/3d to 1/2, longer to get out to the fishing grounds and back.

Besides, if the theory of 'peak oil' is to be believed, most of these high hp machines will be swept from the seas due to ridiculously high fuel costs in a few years anyway.

The guy who started this whole thing wanted a sword boat that had a 12,000 gal fuel capacity. Imagine him gassing up at $10 a gallon. under those conditions, one or two bad fishing runs could bankrupt him .

A corporate owned larger fleet could cover that risk better by spreading it over more boats. But shareholders demand steady returns and/or ever enhanced company value for their investment. A couple of boats comming home with empty tanks and empty holds a couple of times could do immense damage in that regard.

If this happens, and I really hope it doesn't (I live in the motor city, after all), skippers who go to either sail powered or even sail assisted vessels could hold the long term economic advantage and out last their more muscle bound brothers. (Maybe we should start dusting off our 'T' squares.)

This might also add an advantage to poorer countries who, argueably, need the fish more than we do, because such fishing vessels will be much more labor intensive.

Bob

BTW. If you want the bejesus scared out of you, Google(R) 'peak oil'. If even half of it is true, we are all in for a real world of hurt. Even Stephen King himself couldn't write anything scarier. Sweet dreams.

[Vega]

Guillermo - ah now I've got it! What your saying is that ALL Galicians are nothing but a bunch of thieves (always were, are and will be!), would even steal from their own mothers and but for the fortitious arrival of an Anglo-Dutch fleet who they immediately blamed for their thieving ways and thus avoided the fate they so richly deserved, that of being hung as traitors by the divine King of Spain.

Nah! You don't get it right. Galicians see the Spanish (Castelhanos) the same way the Scottish see the English.:p ...Now you get it?
Of course they have not done so well as the Portuguese, that have succeeded in remaining independent, but have done a lot better than the Scottish, cause they have succeeded in maintaining, well and alive, their own language, and their culture is getting stronger everyday. They have even managed to win (some years ago) the Spanish championship:p :p :p and are known to pissing everybody, particularly the US (do you know that Fidel de Castro is a Gallician):p :p :p

Of course everybody knows that Portuguese and Gallicians are brothers...So:D

[safewalrus]

So the Gallicians will rip off the Portugese much the same way as the Scottish (who have two languages apart from the 'bad' English they speak - Gaelic -stolen from the Picts [Celtic] and Scots which is a made up language mixing bad English with pure giberish) have and are ripping off the English - it is now illegal to state this in England as it is to call the Spanish barefaced thieves or kettles black, all of which unfortunately are true! Ask a Cornish Fisherman about this! They too have been robbed by their so called fellow Celts the Scots! In their (Scots) own outlandish tongue "dinna trust 'em"

[Guillermo]

....Their neighbors in Portugal have ghosen another strategy, they have taken advantage of the reasonable conditions offered by the EC to "finish" with their (large) boats and have opted for a lot less industrial fishing....


Paulo,
I'm still convinced fishing methods aren't good or bad by themselves (Except some kind of bizarre ones, as fishing with explosives, i.e.), but it's the use we made of them. As Sarpii says: Scale. And also intensity. Even bottom trawling may not be that harmful if done over the proper grounds, for the proper species and using proper nets for a proper period of time. Probably what's happening with the Huelva fleet is that they are too many fishermen with too many powerful boats, fishing too many time (whatever the waters).

I'm most interested in knowing more about the Portuguese strategy you mention of swapping big boats for small ones in the wake of the CE regulations. I know those regulations quite well and do not remember one encouraging that kind of boats swapping. Are you sure?

Maybe the reason is rather that the Portuguese bigger boats had no grounds to go fising, so owners took the funds from the CE to scrap them and on the other hand there were licenses still available for fishing with "artes", previously not used or abandoned now used because the moratory on the spanish fleet rised the stocks in the area (?). In this case most probably fishermen are not the same in one case and the other, I suspect.

I'm most interested in knowing more about this matter, so if you can tell me more or where I can gather more info, I'd appreciate that.

My knowledge of the fisheries of the Algarve coast is poor, but I have some better info about the Portuguese North coast from Porto to the Minho river. I have been talking with their associations because of certain mussel farms to be stablish there. The impression I got is that the close to coast fisheries (up to 6 miles, the zone where bottom trawling cannot be done, probably the same as in Algarve) are not rendible enough and fishermen are dissapearing anyhow (Paradigmatic in Esposende). I would love to talk with you about all this personally, if you finally decide to come over to the Galician Rias in summer.

(By the way: Thanks for the hand with the Walrus issue. I cannot get offended by him and for sure I'm not going to enter that kind of xenophobic discussion, as I love Cornwall and have excellent friends there)

[Vega]

So the Gallicians will rip off the Portugese much the same way as the Scottish .... have and are ripping off the English - it is now illegal to state this in England as it is to call the Spanish barefaced thieves or kettles black, all of which unfortunately are true!

You could not be more wrong. Galician as a language is older and it is in the origin of the Portuguese language:

In medieval times, in the region that today is Portugal, there were two main dialects: Galician-Portuguese (spoken in the Northwestern region of the Iberian Peninsula) and Luso-Mozarabic (spoken in the region between the Mondego and Tagus Rivers, which was under Muslim control). In the 12th and 13th century, Portuguese conquered permanently that Muslim territory and that caused the two dialects to merge, giving birth to the Portuguese language.
Anyway, till the XV century, Portuguese was very close to Galician and even today, if you go to rural border land, I can tell you that differences are really small.
There is even a small village, many hundred years old, that is half in Portugal, half in Galicia. So you can imagine their language… it’s an historic village with an historic language...:p

as … to call the Spanish barefaced thieves or kettles black

I hope you are joking:rolleyes: . I bet you don’t really know Spain…and if you know Iberia and have that opinion about the many different cultures that people the land….then I guess you are a strange guy.:D

[safewalrus]

[secretly Vega your right, but it winds gilly up tho' he sez not so what the Hell)

I know nada, tho' half of my family live there!:rolleyes:

[Vega]

I'm still convinced fishing methods aren't good or bad by themselves … but it's the use we made of them. As Sarpii says: Scale. And also intensity. Even bottom trawling may not be that harmful if done over the proper grounds, for the proper species and using proper nets for a proper period of time.

Guillermo, obviously you know more about fishing than I do…but still I can not understand your point…. Look at the numbers of this research:

http://www.ualg.pt/fcma/acien/biopescas/discalg.htm

They say that fish trawlers throw away 59% of all the fish that comes in the nets; Boats that fish with nets in a circle throw away 3% of the fish (undesired species).

These numbers show clearly that trawlers are not environmental friendly, that they kill more than they use…and the destruction and killing on the sea grounds are not taken in account here.

How can you say that “fishing methods aren't good or bad by themselves”? For me, it is clear, that a method that kills more than they use, is a bad method.

I'm most interested in knowing more about the Portuguese strategy you mention of swapping big boats for small ones in the wake of the CE regulations. I know those regulations quite well and do not remember one encouraging that kind of boats swapping. Are you sure?

That is not made directly, but they offer money for a destruction of boats and they also give incentives for building boats, if they are the right kind of boats.

The intention is sustainability, fishing in our own waters. So you kill environmental bad boats and you build environmental friendly boats, changing to more environmental friendly fishing techniques, like the rapa (circle with nets with a small boat). The result is mostly the scraping of big and old boats and the building of new smaller units.

http://www.uniaonaval.pt/port/embarcacao25.html
http://www.uniaonaval.pt/port/embarcacao23.html


Maybe the reason is rather that the Portuguese bigger boats had no grounds to go fising,

This is also true. We have a lot of boats that used to fish in the Mauritania and because there is no more fish there, they are fishing now in far away places like the Indian Ocean and South Africa…and these are not really big boats…I guess around 30m Boats.
We don’t have really big fishing boats anymore. The only ones were those that went to New Foundland to catch cod fish, and they cannot go anymore, so they were scraped.

My knowledge of the fisheries of the Algarve coast is poor, but I have some better info about the Portuguese North coast from Porto to the Minho river…. The impression I got is that the close to coast fisheries (up to 6 miles, the zone where bottom trawling cannot be done, probably the same as in Algarve) are not rendible enough and fishermen are dissapearing anyhow (Paradigmatic in Esposende).

Yes you are right, the number of fishermen is decreasing, there are not enough fish, but that has nothing to do with bottom trawling. Fishermen here don’t like the system and there are few trawlers. I believe that government don’t like it either and I think that no more licenses are going to be issued to bottom trawling, or even costal trawling.

About new small boats, I think that you can see a lot more in Algarve, because the sea is a lot more calm than in the west coast. In the west coast every year the lives of several fishermen are lost (In December I have changed my boat from Figueira da Foz to Nazaré. I have sailed with 4 to 5 meters steep waves, 25 knots of wind….and they were fishing) …so, very small boats…

I'm most interested in knowing more about this matter, so if you can tell me more or where I can gather more info, I'd appreciate that.

I hope this can prove useful:

http://www.qca.pt/pos/mare.asp
http://www.qca.pt/pos/relatorios.asp#mare
http://www.qca.pt/pos/download/2000/mare.pdf
http://www.qca.pt/pos/download/relatorios_2003/MARE_Relat2003.pdf
http://www.ualg.pt/fcma/cfrg/pt/projects.shtml
http://www.ualg.pt/fcma/cfrg/eng/papers.shtml
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/DOCREP/006/X8498E/X8498E00.HTM
http://www.igp.pt/consulta_docs.php?Id=366
http://ipimar-iniap.ipimar.pt/indexvale.html
http://ioc.unesco.org/oceanportal/browse.php?cat=238

[Guillermo]

Vega,
Yes, bottom trwaling is not a selective fishing method and can be very harmful if done in an aggressive way (rolling balls or chains at the bottom of the net, trawling in sensitive bottoms with lots of fragile species -sponges, coral and others- that may be damaged, etc). Also bycatch for certain fisheries, as those of crustaceans, can be very high (60+%). I'm not defending the uncontrolled use of bottom trawling nets for every fishery, as you may imagine.

But there are also fisheries with small bycatchs (in the order of 25%), like the "pescada" (Merluccius), i.e., that can be fished sustainable with this method using the proper selective nets, in my opinion.

Other fishing methods, even among the traditional "artes", if badly used can also be very aggressive. Let's think about gill nets or drifting nets. I'm fond of spearfishing and I've checked personally the devastating effects of incontrolled fishing with no selective gill nets in coastal waters.

So, once again, I still believe the problem is mostly the bad or good use we do of the several fishing method.

By the way: There is an interesting WWF initiative to promote investigation on reducing bycatch at: http://www.smartgear.org/index.php

The small fishing portuguese boats in the links you posted, are much the same as the ones we have in Galicia in big numbers too. In Galicia there are something like 5800 fishing boats and 1200 acquaculture auxiliaries, nearly half of them in the Ria de Vilagarcía, where I have my professional office.

Thanks a lot for all the info on the Portuguese legislation. I'll study it carefully.

[trouty]

I think you are basically right about trawlingbeing an unsustainable method of fishing - that is very wastefull of the resource.

Having said that - and admitting, that is, the public position I hold on Trawling as a method of fishing...

The trawlers themselves ARE attempting to address the environmental issues.

For example - the prawn trawlers here draw strong criticism from environmental groups for by catch of turtles (which drown in the nets).

As a result thet are now trialling / fitting, turtle exclusion devices to trawls...with some success I might add, (albeit not eliminating the problem - rather reducing it substatially).

That said, they would still need exclusion devices for all the other unwanted species by catch. Sadly - lots of that dead bycatch (trawler trash) is juvenile fishstocks that havent reached the age of spawning, so fish recruitment levels are adversely affected by the trawl method.

About the only "positive" of the trawler trash issue - is that the trash does in fact make it's way back into the oceanic food cycle - and benefit species which learn to folow the trawlers to eat said trash.

Some of the biggest meanest Yellowfin Tuna you will ever find follow prawn trawlers around! ;)

Soooo - it's possibly not as bad as it at first sounds - when we look at the trawling methodology, however - in a perfect world - we could do without it....

I am trying to imagine a pizza without prawns! :(

Maybe I'm not 100% toally convinced yet! :D

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Ok then ban the lot! Feed the fish 'Soylant Green' for a couple of years that should solve a few problems!:p

But seriously all this bitching ain't helping any is it! :confused: Lets get out there and do something ('decommission trawlers' with rams for a start!):D

[longliner45]

OK.nobody weak.just somebody strong, nobody lonely just somebody gone ,,,,some Engish dude wrote that,I have heard nothing but good ideas from you guys,why not at least let our voices be heard,,,,,we got nothin to lose.lets do it before walruss blowes a 50 amp fuse(nother Engish dude) hell Ill even volenteer for something ! longliner45

[trouty]

What to do and where?

Define the problem

Brainstorm the solutions,

Then take action.

Just where is it we want all these trawlers banned? Worldwide?

Whats the best way?

License buy back schemes?

Funded by?

Recreational fishing license fees?

Lottsa work needed before you rush off to conquyer the world I'd suggest!

Having led such a nation wide campaign downunder (to save the marlin) (with some limited success i might add) I can't tell you how much work is involved, and how easily your plans can be thwarted!

But I admire the desire to do something.

At least not twiddling thumbs while rome burns so to speak!

Cheers!

[longliner45]

Hats off to you trouty;at least you tried with the marlins.modified nets that spit out turtles-that is good,I still would like to see a central comitty or czar of fishing,but dont know wear the leaders of the free world are on this matter, the fisherman are the ones that will take charge of this matter and what they do will matter,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,with hurricans more frequent and powerfull the gulf of Mexico has gotton more rest lately,and its coming back around in a couple of months ! I think the economical strain will be a factor.Maybe a world wide boycott of fish?

[Vega]

What I am trying to say, regarding Industrial Fishing done by large trawlers, versus traditional coastal fishing is very well stated here:
“, industrial vessels trying to cope with a shortage of resources may progressively encroach on inshore areas previously exploited by or reserved for traditional fishers. In doing so, they take resources away, damaging productive habitats, destroying fishing gear and causing accidents.”

Ethical issues in fisheries FAO http://www.fao.org/documents/

I also believe that for a successful conservation of marine resources it is fundamental that fisheries will be integrated into coastal area management :“When deciding how coastal resources (for example, water, land, etc) should be used or accessed, the people, including fishers, who live in the area, and their ways of living, should be considered, and their opinions taken into account in the planning process.

….Countries should recognize that responsible fisheries policy requires a sound scientific basis. Therefore, countries should make research facilities available and encourage training of young technicians…
In order to conduct research, countries should monitor the conditions of fish and their habitats and watch for any changes occurring in these conditions. Data should be gathered on the effects of different types of fishing gear on target fish populations and on the general environment. This research is particularly important when a country plans to commercially introduce new gear or fishing techniques. “

And most of all, I believe that the “Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries”, adopted unanimously on 31 October 1995 by the FAO Conference, (or any other global agreement that serves the same purposes) should not be a “non-mandatory” document, but an international mandatory, a legal set of principles that would concern every country.

After all the sea belongs to all and it is neither reasonable nor acceptable that some countries, in detriment of all the others, can endanger the renewal and sustainability of living sea resources.


“The Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries lays out principles and international standards of behaviour for responsible practices that aim to ensure the effective conservation, management and development of living aquatic resources. The principles and standards take into account all relevant biological, technological, economic, social, environmental and commercial aspects and allow due respect for the ecosystem and for biodiversity.”

Key articles from the Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries:

• Article 6.1. States and users of living aquatic resources should conserve aquatic ecosystems. The right to fish carries with it the obligation to do so in a responsible manner so as to ensure effective conservation and management of the living aquatic resources.
• Article 6.2. Fisheries management should promote the maintenance of the quality, diversity and availability of fishery resources in sufficient quantities for present and future generations in the context of food security, poverty alleviation and sustainable development …
• Article 6.13. States should … ensure that decision-making processes are transparent and achieve timely solutions to urgent matters. States, in accordance with appropriate procedures, should facilitate consultation and the effective participation of industry, fishworkers, environmental and other interested organizations in decision-making with respect to the development of laws and policies related to fisheries management, development, international lending and aid.
• Article 6.18. Recognizing the important contributions of artisanal and small-scale fisheries to employment, income and food security, States should appropriately protect the rights of fishers and fishworkers, particularly those engaged in subsistence, small-scale and artisanal fisheries, to a secure
and just livelihood, as well as preferential access, where appropriate, to traditional fishing grounds and resources in the waters under their national jurisdiction.

http://www.fao.org/figis/servlet/static?xml=CCRF_prog.xml&dom=org&xp_nav=4

As a renewable natural resource, fish can be harvested year after year if countries have wise policies in place and if responsible fishing and utilization practices are followed. Similarly, with aquaculture, fish farming that does not harm the environment should be promoted because this type of culture will make important social and economic contributions to farming communities and the economies of their countries.

If the Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries is implemented successfully by all people who are involved in fisheries and aquaculture it can be expected that fish and fisheries products will be available for consumption by present and future generations. In fact, current generations have a moral obligation to ensure that they do not reduce the supplies of fish available for future generations by careless and excessive use today.

If all the world’s nations unite in pursuing responsible fishing practices, there will be ample fish supplies for many generations to come. http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/003/x9066e/x9066e00.htm

Sorry for the long post…I hope that it will be of interest at least for some.;)

[safewalrus]

Trouble is most of the fishermen etc [good and bad] haven't heard of the code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries let alone signed it!

after all, our countries have signed a lot of stuff we all haven't heard of, on our behalf, without either telling us or asking us, that we don't agree to, so what chance has this got? :confused:

Without a STRONG police force, non whatsoever :rolleyes: and we all know what the UN police force is like! :(

even the greatest Nations on earth, and their allies have difficulties policing simple things, which get good press cover, so what chance out of sight stuff ?

Liked the post earlier from Oz concerning the Indonesians - "some of the local aborigines have taken to petrol bombing the perpatrators" or some such!

OK it's not nice but it is POSITIVE! And when push comes to shove it may be the ONLY way to go! Let us hope not.......