What happened to Frosty ..I am worried

[PAR]

Well, one of us is has a more in depth understanding of this history. The East India Company was in financial difficulties and with European taste for tea growing exponentially, plus upstarting rival tea importers looming, the East India Company managed to get a tea import monopoly established, with the help of Parliament. It was this monopoly and the culmination of several previous events that caused the incident in Boston harbor in late 1773.

The political "spin" used this event, as a way to propagandize the taxation without representation issue, that was a growing ember in the America colonies at the time.

The actual "tea" aspect of the issue was pure economics. Britain was the big importer, but a 25% tax was placed on all tea imports. Other European countries, notably the Dutch didn't tax tea, so a black market quickly sprang up, to which the British wanted to thwart.

This was all part of a build up of British oppression on things and people it considered inferior to themselves. About a decade previous to the infamous tea party were the first attempts to raise money, by taxing the Colonies. The stamp Act for example was successfully argued unconstitutional and repealed. Continued efforts by the Brits to increase their suck on the Colonies resources and exports, without representation or a level hand, culminated in several early 1770's events, the tea party being one of them.

Now the tea party was a key event, but only because of it's place in the time line, not the specific events thereof.

[masalai]

Learn something every day, thanks Par

[masalai]

Anyhow, frosty has been found and masalai is on a self imposed exile because major thread has been closed... Boo Hoo BS....

Lots of weird stuff surfacing that is quite worrisome so maybe best let the victims suffer blissfully unaware...

Thanks Westie,
For your search, and interest... I tried all the links and where they led all to no avail and dead (literally) as emails returned as un-received... Good try though...

My other links through Grouper proved to be similarly fruitless... So now the long wait for 'snail-mail' services...

PM works so if anyone seeks to contact me that is still OK

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by PAR

Those that don't think America is dumb, haven't been paying attention to whom they elect as their leaders. Even worse ask any ten Americans who won the 1812 war or when WW II was over, let alone why we got into it or who follows the vice president in presidential succession. Ask the same ten Americans to find the USA on an unmarked global map, then come back and attempt to defend the honer, of the intelligence of the average American. When 99% of Americans are asked what type of country this is, they all reply a democracy, which isn't the very republic that they live in. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be an American, but the country is full of people that literally don't have a clue and couldn't pass the INS citizenship test. I know I could, likely easily, how many of you? America also doesn't have an arm lock on boneheads. Apparently they've been allow to continue breeding (in most countries), which has just made it worse.

99% of Americans are 100% correct, PAR. A democratic republic is a bona fide democracy.

Democracy doesn't have to be direct democracy to fit the bill. Instead of everyone showing up at town hall twice a month and voting on matters of importance, we can elect council members instead as representatives -- to, you know, represent us and our interests at those meetings. Representative democracy is still genuine democracy....

[PAR]

I never suggested it wasn't a democracy, but that wasn't the question. The USA is a republic, which is an understandable thing, but my point was, if they actually paid attention to the words of the "Pledge of Allegiance" that I'm sure most have committed to memory, it's pretty self evident. My other point was most Americans don't know America. For example, how many presidents of the United States, preceded George Washington? Was John Hancock president? Why did he have to sign the Declaration of Independence first?

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by troy2000

99% of Americans are 100% correct, PAR. A democratic republic is a bona fide democracy.

Democracy doesn't have to be direct democracy to fit the bill. Instead of everyone showing up at town hall twice a month and voting on matters of importance, we can elect council members instead as representatives -- to, you know, represent us and our interests at those meetings. Representative democracy is still genuine democracy....

.......... except that the USA is actually a constitutional republic.

PDW

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by pdwiley

.......... except that the USA is actually a constitutional republic.

PDW

Your point? Does that somehow mean it isn't a democracy?

[Wynand N]

no politics gents unless it happens on a boat...

[rwatson]

According to Mr Buckminster Fuller, an East India flag was stolen during the Boston Tea Party, and kept as a trophy until Washington needed a new flag.

Betsy used this 'trophy' as a basis for the now famous US Flag ( keeping the red and white stripes of the East India Company), effectively 'taking over' the insignia of what had become the worlds leading trade organisation both politically, and a bit later, literally..

[PAR]

There has, is and likely will continue to be considerable debate as to the "birth" or the US ensign design. Though Charles Fawcett, the knighted British historian, made a reasonable argument in favor of this, the use of stripes wasn't an East India benchmark. Paintings can't even accurately nail down the number of strips or which color was first in the 17th and 18th century for this company.

This is a bit of history I know a little about and the basic problem I have with Fawcett's argument is the East India flag wasn't flown unless in the India ocean. These vessels few the British red ensign other wise. The first US flag was the Grand Union and had 13 stripes, representing the separate colonies and the double English and Scottish crosses. This flag is of different proportions then the East India flag, which seem insignificant to us now, quite important at the time. It's believed these first flags were English red ensigns with white stripes added. About 4 months later, Betsy Ross finishes her commission for George Washington and the "Betsy Ross" version was born, though it's not really known how popular it was. There were other flags having stars in circles, some with a center star, others with a wreath.

Congress reconciled the need to standardize the flag, so about a year later the marine committee wrote up a fairly broad standard. The naval ensign was the first truly described and planed flag, but the point count on the stars and their location in the canton wasn't dictated, so a bunch of interesting flags came about. In this era (late 1776 to mid 1777) there where a couple of dozen US flags, all conforming to the 13 stripe, 13 star requirement. Two flags did seem to dominate in use, the Hopkins which had 6 pointed stars in a staggered pattern in the canton and a more popular version which arranged the stars symmetrically. The symmetric version was preferred because the other offered the hint of the English cross.

Even though I've seen the Betsy Ross flag, it's probable that Hopkins actually designed the 1777 standard (at least he tried to get paid for it), though it's notable Betsy's contribution was the 5 pointed star.

As to the East India similarities, well, many flags at the time where employing stripes. In fact, the anthem "Star Spangled Banner" was inspired by the 15 star, 15 stripe flag flying over fort McHenry. A few years after the 1812 war, congress acted to standardize the stripe count at 13 and admit a star for each state. The stripes in the 17th and 18th century where known as "stripes of rebellion", so a common thing to see when strife is about. The "Don't Tread On Me" flag is a classic example of this motif.

Okay, I got a flag thing, it's not the worst of my fetishes.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by PAR

There has, is and likely will continue to be considerable debate as to the "birth" or the US ensign design. Though Charles Fawcett, the knighted British historian, made a reasonable argument in favor of this, the use of stripes wasn't an East India benchmark. Paintings can't even accurately nail down the number of strips or which color was first in the 17th and 18th century for this company.

This is a bit of history I know a little about and the basic problem I have with Fawcett's argument is the East India flag wasn't flown unless in the India ocean.

There are over 8 versions of the East India Flag, all which operated under different rules over different times.

The actual initial proclamation
""When the proclamation of 1674 authorized the red ensign for English merchant ships, the Honourable East India Company was restricted in 1676 to using their ensigns in eastern waters, and beyond St Helena in the Atlantic Ocean.""


Boston was well out of the way of usual British Maritime traffic.
also
"the fact remains that ships of the Honourable East India Company continued to fly the striped ensign despite its being illegal for them to do so."


http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-eic.html#13


The Boston Tea Party December - 16, 1773

From 1707 to approximately 1800, Wilson shows the Honourable East India Company ensign with the British Union flag. - in the attached comparison illustration with the Betsy Ross Version

.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by PAR

Okay, I got a flag thing, it's not the worst of my fetishes.

British Flag etiquette at sea is so complicated and holds still to this day severe punishment it is better not to use any of it at all.

Raising and lowering even in foreign waters at 9 and 6. I think!!

Not dipping the jack when passing a British man O war is prisonable.

Always fly a Jack in good condition when leaving or entering a foriegn port. Etc Etc

[PAR]

I'm reasonably confidant that the Betsy Ross flag wasn't nearly as popular as the 1777 declaration flag (either of the two common versions). Again, the use of stripes on flags was common, particularly with rebel forces or insurgents, which of course we pesky new worlder's were. I'm aware the East India ships defied the flag orders often, but it just wasn't that common a thing to see in the colonies. Most countries use some form of stripe motif in their flags. It was only the Europeans that got into the cross variations thing.

When you look at flags of the African nations, it's predominately stripes, though former crown influence can be seen in some. Flags of the Americas show a smattering of crosses and obvious colonization influence, but still heavy on the stripes. A fair bit of symbology shows in the flags of Asia.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by rwatson

According to Mr Buckminster Fuller, an East India flag was stolen during the Boston Tea Party, and kept as a trophy until Washington needed a new flag.

Betsy used this 'trophy' as a basis for the now famous US Flag ( keeping the red and white stripes of the East India Company), effectively 'taking over' the insignia of what had become the worlds leading trade organisation both politically, and a bit later, literally..

Although I've never heard this version of flag history before, I suppose the ship didn't have to be flying the flag when they stole it; it could have been lifted from ship's stores during the tea raid.

But of course, like other inspiring patriotic stories, the one that Betsy Ross made the first flag for Washington didn't gain currency until around the time of the Centennial, when the country was celebrating 100 years of independence. So I'll take it with a grain of salt, and enjoy it anyway.

[viking north]

I know this is nit picking but America does not have a flag as it is a continent not a country. The Country of the United States on the other hand does have a flag and of all the flags of the world it falls within my favourite 10 designs as also does the country and it's people. Typically of citizens of empires, the society in general tends to become inward looking and as a result has less drive to know about the rest of the world other than when it could affect their personal lifestyle. Taken one step further this mind set also reduces the interest and knowledge of areas and people within their own country. This is typical of all powerful empires thru out history. It is not an indication of the education, intelligence or ability of a people it's just a by product of being a citizen of a superpower/empire. One has less interest or need to seek out info on how other nations or people tick when your's is ticking at what you perceive as perfect time. You don't have to get to where they are they have to get to where you are. It's just a human mindset.
Now some thoughts on the United States Flag. First question why stars and stripes ? Why not some other combination of patterns. The generally accepted history is, it is based upon the British coat of arms of the Washington family. If you visit the ancestorial family cottage of George Washington in England, the coat of arms displayed over the front door is of a standard crest shape with stars on about 1/3 of it's top and vertical red and white stripes covering the bottom 2/3 rds. This is not only logical but deserving of a great mother country (England) a great family (Washington) from whom came a great man (George Washington) that in turn fought and help create another great country.