What Do We Think About Climate Change

can anybody tell me what money is for?

why does it exist?

 

Ugh. I have a chess tourny to attend - I'll try to give another lesson tonight. Take recess... and Bossy, if I find out you've pulled Deedee's poney tail again, I'm gonna have a word with your parents. Cat, go get cleaned up, you have glue everywhere and Troy, I want you to just miss recess and hit the books... http://www.wholesalechess.com/chess/chess_books/middle_game_books/how_to_crush_your_chess_opponent

 

Ok scored the perfect geared pump head AND motor ( 1 hp ) for $20 bucks. The bio-diesel supply site sells the same thing for $600+. And its probably made in China, this one is good ole American made just like I wanted even has 3/4 ports on it.

Now to go do some yanking on that girls pony tail
whaaaahoooo I'm feeling lucky

Its just bits and pieces at this point and I'm a filtering to my hearts content. Recycling folks, its the name of the game.

Homer !!! you have yet to explain how the every growing excessive executive incomes of the last say 20 years or so could come from anything but the workers pockets. GDP is stagnant, consumer spending is down exports are down, imports are up, graft is way up and the lobbyist industry is exploding. Where do you think the money is coming from if not right off the tables of middle America

I"m ready for my lesson in economics any time there "Homey"

 

I've bought lots of stuff from here

http://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp

 

Two 24 volt DC 1/4 hp motors just came in the mail from them today. Funny thing is if you figure out the watts its 10 amps at 24 volts or 240 watts so if 720 watts = 1 hp then the motors should be .3333333 hp soooooo why do they advertise them at 1/4 hp.

oh well I only need 1/3 hp anyway to get the pressure I need out of this geared pump head so I've got it covered one way or another. I'm going to use them when I move the mini refinery on board and want to run it off the house bank.

now to figure out the heating element
Cheers
B

 

+1.

In the 1960's, the typical CEO's total compensation package was about 24 times what the average wage earners in his company were making. By the year 2000, he was making 300 times as much. It's gone up and down some since then, but right now it's busy climbing right back up towards that 2000 high.

Does anyone honestly believe the typical CEO is worth twelve times as much to a company today as he was forty years ago? Or to put it another way, does anyone honestly believe the average worker is now worth only one twelfth as much to a company, compared to its top executive?

Seems to me the folks complaining about American workers making too much money are barking up the wrong tree....

 

First, here's a book for Wad, Double "D", Deedee. You might have to get some help with it but, well...in the spirit of the season, here:


Next, I told you there was reason for optimism. She had more Dems turn on her than any other nominee in 80 years. What this means is that the Dems have their tails between their legs. They know they've screwed up and they know we know it. We are starting down a long road of recovery.


Okay now. I'll address the more difficult issue (It's not more difficult for me but apparently some of you just can't balance a checkbook so I am finding it difficult to explain to you - My teenage daughters got it on the first try, BTW). First, some perspective; The top ten CEO's made $59M each. The top ten celebrities made $119M each (the numbers aren't important - a different year, a different set of numbers - keep your eye on the ball and pay attention to the concept.) Many of the top ten CEO's do not know who the top celebrities are nor probably, even that they exist. Why? Because they are busy working. Why are they working so hard? Because in today's world, big company dollars are in the billions and if the CEO can scratch together $100M in savings for his company or land a deal netting half a billion dollars, his pay seems paltry in comparison. This man has to answer to a board of directors. These are the people that are majority stockholders. If they could do the job as well themselves or they could hire the McDonald's manager for $65,000, don't you think they would do it? They pay that CEO what seems like extraordinary sums because he is worth it!
Meanwhile, back to the celebrities. What do they do? ***** about how much money the CEO makes.
I'll tell ya what - let me go find something from Thomas Sowell. He's smarter and a better teacher than I'll ever be, then I'll get right back to you. But keep this in mind: The board wants to make money. When they pay the CEO, it comes out of their pockets. There is not a set amount of wealth that exists. When a company makes a lot of money, they are able to hire more people to make yet more money. Yes, sometimes they buy machinery and a guy loses a job. Sorry, but the people who are making the money that he would have can then spend it on something else - and he can work building that. Through a set of circumstances (advances in technology, mostly) yes, there are people making a lot of money. Through the same circumstances but from a different perspective, there are people that were not insightful enough to train to do the higher tech tasks of today and they are hurting. I say, if you don't like hurting, get off your *** and get another job so that you can afford to train your kids to make more money. May I recommend that you go back to school and learn to build a better chingas to compete? There is a lot of flexibility and local insight in being small with which a large corporation can't compete.
All said, what is the envier's proposed alternative? Get rid of technology? Force a CEO to hire more workers than what is necessary to perform the job? Limit his pay so that he won't work sixteen hour days for twenty years trying to get that high-paying job? Kill the CEOs? Just F'ing kill 'em and take their stuff?

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/11/21/income_confusion
Had to go to 2007 for this - I hope you appreciate. I'm sure that there is more. Much of what I teach was in turn, taught to me by Thomas Sowell, a truly great man

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/11/20/income_confusion_part_ii
Another

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/11/27/that_top_one_percent/page/2

 

There is such a world of knowledge and common sense in Thomas Sowell. I think I'll just review for the remainder of the evening. g'nite

 

Good move.

 

I'd like to add that there is nothing in this post of Mark's that's not accurate.

However, my earlier post about stagnating wages has nothing to do with C-level pay, except that C-level pay has not stagnated while worker pay has. This is very bad for our general economy.

Mark: How do you address the problem of a broke American consumer/worker? That's why we aren't in a gangbusters recovery... no consumer spending in an economy that runs on it. How do you propose we get a middle class back and get back to those days where you could afford to have a single income and still have the comforts of the Western world? (Post WWII type earnings?)

 

Mark you forgot the basics of any economy. Wealth creation through production. Service based economies don't survive for the simple reason that the number of people able to afford services steadily declines as the number of people providing services increases. Its simple supply and demand. before you know it everyone is flipping burgers and not one can afford to eat them. Manufacturing is the key to any successful economy and those beloved exects of yours are the fools who thought it best to ship those jobs overseas and let despots farm there own people out as the lowest bidder. Hello Bhopal.

The unemployed sector in this country is largely made up of construction and manufacturing has bens. Those Jobs are now safely in China where some fool is getting paid 50C a day and builds the shittiest product on the market. That worker is required to rent a dorm from the company and gets zero benefits or retirement. Works in appalling conditions and yet, and this is my favorite part, the cost of the goods produced is almost the same as when they were produced locally here where they are sold. The savings at the expense of the locals jobs and the foreigners sweat equity went straight into the pockets of that exec you seem to think is worth it.

All they really did in order to make more money was to shaft the working class and ship jobs to economies where wages, safety and edumacation were virtually non existent. The lesson to be learned is that if left to the multinationals national interest goes out the window in favor of executive wages and you end up with a rotting American economy.

Free trade is a crock and its destroying economies throughout the world.

 

Wow... this thread just got very interesting. Mark AND Boston are both right, which gets to my point. Neither the "left" or the "right" can solve the systemic problems of our capitalist system. There are flaws inherent to the system.

If the C-level guy does a great job by making huge profits shipping jobs overseas, he is indeed worth his exorbitant pay, like Mark says.

However, capitalism doesn't reward the C-level guy for making decisions that result in long term economic growth.

This is exactly why capitalism can't work, ultimately. I have no other solution (except removing all governments and organizations, in general), but that is a bit extreme. What we see is that there is an inherent problem with capitalism.

It's a self-destructing form of economics in the long run because decision makers aren't compensated for making wise macroeconomic decisions.

 

ya I'm not seeing how making corporate decisions that lead to the creation of short lived consumer economies is worthy of reward. As we are seeing the life span of a consumer based economy looks like it was about 15 years at best. Now all we have is a shell of what was once a thriving country, granted there were improvements that needed to be made but at this point any chance at a cooperative based business model has been precluded by the stranglehold of some few multinationals.

The simple solution is to protect our economies and the manufacturing sector by bringing back import duties and limits. Free market is a proven failure.

 

factory jobs will eventually be a thing of the past regardless of the country as robotics, automation, and new production methods in todays labs become wide spread

eventually we will need to redefine what capital is and who controls it

who should control the means of manufacturing when few people are required?

and who will have the money to buy the products produced?

now even professional jobs are going to india, bookkeeping, accounting, publishing most anything that can be done over a network

maybe next, ceo's and politicians

 

You have to be careful with free trade. Ask a simple question before opening up borders completely - "Are we willing to allow the production to go where the wages are lower?" I, personally was in favor of free trade because I felt that the increase of goods and services would give us more options as consumers and I had no problem with increasing wealth in far off lands as I foresaw international jealousy building as the internet made it into every dark corner of the globe. Now, some people that were content with a cup of rice are saying "I wan't more of that America type stuff!". They are working hard, learning fast, and JUST LIKE WITH JAPAN, the product was garbage at first. It's getting better every day. Scary, huh? It is - They've got far more people than we have, technology, a culture that promotes their exceptionalism and a rolling ball.
Bos, I do some work with magnets. I know, not a lot, because I am not a mathematician but more than the average person. I simply cannot buy magnets made in America for my work. They require raw materials (Neodymium, iron and boron for a "neo" magnet or samarium cobalt) a filthy and hazardous manufacturing process, plus the Chinese worked with GM to develope them in the seventies. Unless a new technology is invented, these will always be made in China (especially the sintered type - you'll know it because it is chrome plated) but tons of everyday devices use these magnets. Let's look at crow bars. I needed a crow bar four years ago and went to the store, where I found "made in India" and "made in China". I bought the one made in India because I consider them less of a threat. As I was levering with it, it bent. Not a little bend, mind you - it bent thirty degrees! I ended up using a piece of rough-cut six-by and a piece of re-bar and got through the job but every time we go to the store and accept this crap, we bring it on ourselves (I since found that NAPA carries a locally made wonderful pry bar with an adjustable end) I defy you to find an extension cord that was made in America. Covered with American flags, company "American owned" and all, but made in America? Nope. All are made in China.
So I feel for the American worker. Times have changed and we were caught with our pants down. There are simply not enough high paying (read "in demand") jobs for the people that aren't trained to do them, it is expensive to manufacture here relative to somewhere else because we care about our environment, have burdonsome regulations and are accustomed to high wages.
This leads to the question I think Cat asked about a broke American consumer/worker. "How do we get a middle class back and have a single wage-earner family?"
"C-level pay has not stagnated while worker pay has."
"...favor executive wages..."
"...straight into the pockets of that exec you seem to think is worth it."First, it hurts me, too but envy or anger because somebody else is living the good life is not the answer. Forget those guys - We have always had "Rockefellers" and begrudging them won't help - In fact, if we keep our eye on the ball and use them as motivation, maybe not you or me but somebody we know, or our kid, will make it big inventing something. If we will never have a huge coal mining or steel industry, never again see auto plants with tens of thousands of workers, if some airline buys stupid F'ing Airbus because they costs less than Boeings, if we curl up and snivel because it's not like it used to be, take more and more from those CEOs because they are "abusing" us, we will lose anyway as they leave. That's right - All it takes is for this place to be not worth it for them, they move offshore and sell us a product if we like and don't put up with our ********. Don't like that? Don't want to let them bring the product in? Who does that hurt? It hurts us - we lose an alternative, a freedom, if you will!
A large part of my income is from the tourist industry and there aren't enough execs to go around (they are always working!)
But bigger than that, what has NOT happened is that through some inherent flaw in the capitalist system wealth converged in fewer and fewer hands until we have just a moneyed class and all of us nobodies flippin' burgers.
We are flippin' burgers because we were ill-prepared (me included) to meet the new challenges.
How do we get it back?
"All they really did in order to make more money was to shaft the working class and ship jobs to economies where wages, safety and edumacation were virtually non existent. The lesson to be learned is that if left to the multinationals national interest goes out the window in favor of executive wages and you end up with a rotting American economy."
Stop being victims, first, then calmly look within ourselves and figure out what we can do to make matters better for our families.
I am an anti-tax guy. I know that we have survived higher taxes in the past than what we have now...but that was the past, and this is now. Now, we have a delicate place in history, a "tipping point" to steal from one author. It is a proven fact that taxing more does not bring in more income. Throw that idea out. Do any of us think, for one minute, that taking a third of the dead guy's money he has already worked hard for his whole life is going to make us any better off? Do you think taxing some corporation so much that they don't bother is going to make us "come back"? The double taxation of corporations is already retarded -who do you think pays those taxes in a more expensive product?)? But let's leave taxation out of the argument for now, as well.
There are a lot of angry people. I hear talk of revolution, death taxes have been inacted to get the "rich guy" and his familiy's money, "corporate oligarchy" is thrown around, health-care for all, evil little Chinese, etc. but none of these addresses the problem of having more people than high paying jobs. "Why can't we be more like Germany?", one might ask - "They are doing it!" Well, yes they are, but Germany is small and if you look at Europe as a whole, it is as big of a financial shithole as the US. Their economy is a disaster and they are milking Germany for its wealth. We have analogies here - there are very bright spots in our economy, there are businesses that are making great products and buckets of money. But just like Germany is not big enough to hold up all of Europe, the bright spots in our economy are not strong enough to support everyone else.
Okay, so what's the answer?
I don't know. We can start by stopping the class envy - that will never get us anywhere (and is very unbecoming). From there, we can move into a combination of reducing burdens on business, taxation (remember, taxes raised above a certain level do not make the government more money. I do not remember what that level is, but realistically, we are already past that point. Remember to add state and local and indirect taxes to the equation), and educating our kids to better meet the new challenges. My twenty-one year old is a bio-engineering graduate at the U Dub. He is going to make artificial human tissue, I think, and will do well financially (thinking about twenty in the military first). Troy's son is serving his country and had damn-well better use the GI bill to get further school (part of military pay is education). Neither of them are flipping burgers nor will they ever need to.
If part of our problem is too many people without sufficient education, why did we open the floodgates to the least successful demographic of Mexico? You don't think those are people with useful modern skills coming across that border, do you? Nope, they are poor folk with no skills beyond autobody or gardening or whatever. People ignorant of Mexico think that it is just a bunch of banditos and adobe huts. No, there are actually huge opportunities for the educated - they are not sneaking across any border. It's the poor guy tring to feed his family off mesquite and scorpions in the desert, or the guy in Monterrey trying to escape the traficante's bullets...so they aren't going to help matters.
Cat asked something about a single income. This will get me in trouble with the fairer sex, but women's suffrage was the beginning of our problems. When women started to vote, to be feminists (anything a man can do...), to quit being mothers and homemakers, we gradually effectively increased the workforce by almost 100% over the same decades that technology was growing by leaps and bounds. More power to 'em, if they want a job, as "fair is fair". I'm just saying that was a consequence - we have more competition for jobs and we can't go back (and have lost the foundation of America, "the family", as part of this).
Okay, ANSWERS, already! Less burden, more small and local business, innovation born of education and desire to succeed. How to foment the desire to succeed? The answr is above. Less burden, more family (we need to be there for our kids rather than plant them in front of the video game so we can fully devote ourselves to self-pity). There is no instant solution, no elixer. Our generation can best help itself by helping our progeny. That neighbor kid "jus' chillin'" ? Go do something with him. That round of golf with your buddies? Do it with your wife and kid, instead. If we start to get the debt under control, teach the youth family values, work our asses off, and encourage small business (Steel mills and GM will never again be huge), in twenty or thirty years, they can once again envy America.