What Do We Think About Climate Change

[the1much]

DDT is the cause because egg shells get thin from the absence of calcium,,,and ddt kills insects at MUCH lower levels then birds and humans,,,therefore the birds dont have the calcium from the insects they used to.to go even further,,,look at the average weights of birds 50 years ago,,,and their average now.
and malformations are a genetic trait,,, which means its been passed onto the "young ones",,,what we're seeing now in malformations waqs a problem that "originated" in the grandparents.not many diseases cause malformations in animals,,,,it poisons with certain chemical's cause genetic defects,,,,ddt is full of em. and YES i KNOW im talking FACTS,,,,or at least the genetics lab i worked in said they were,,hehe

and i think we all should join PETA. ,, sad thing is we already missed their march on bearskin hats,,,,damit

[masalai]

OooOOooH, I love that dress style - "Thongs and a banner" - suits me fine - I like to wear a "lungi & a polo-shirt".....

[the1much]

i'd wear seal skin if it gave me THEIR attention,,hehe

[bntii]

“Thomas , you better check your own facts before you go after mine.”

The material you provided on this issue from junkscience.org are not "facts". You might look at the name of the site- it indicates what it contains.

The association of DDT and its metabolite derivative DDE with reproductive success in raptors is solid established science. This association is represented by THOUSANDS of research papers spanning forty years. Please read the overview I provided and then go here to fill out your knowledge on the strength of these scientific findings:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...r=&btnG=Search

Frogs–

Please review the available body of scientific work to gain an understanding of how the consensus is being formed on this issue.
Better yet, take a look at nutrient loading and the associated eutrophication of aquatic ecosystems. You will find that this process, and its destructive consequences are profound. So profound that the premise of overreaction by “greens” to the deleterious consequences on a relatively peripheral topic such as amphibian mutation is absurd.

[masalai]

NOAH II

In the year 2008, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in England, and said:
Once again, the earth has become wicked and over-populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me.

Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few good humans.

He gave Noah the blueprints, saying: You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights.

Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard - but no Ark.

Noah! He roared, I'm about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?
Forgive me, Lord, begged Noah, 'but things have changed.

I needed a building permit.

I've been arguing with the inspector about the need for a sprinkler system.

My neighbours claim that I've violated the neighbourhood zoning laws by building the Ark in my yard and exceeding the height limitations.
We had to go to the Appeal Board for a decision.

Then the Department of Transport demanded a bond be posted for the future costs of moving power lines
and other overhead obstructions, to clear the passage for the Ark's move to the sea.
I told them that the sea would be coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it.

Getting the wood was another problem. There's a ban on cutting local trees in order to save the spotted owl.

I tried to convince the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the owls - but no go!

When I started gathering the animals, an animal rights group sued me.
They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will.
They argued the accommodations were too restrictive, and it was cruel and inhumane
to put so many animals in a confined space.

Then the Environmental Agency ruled that I couldn't build the Ark until they'd conducted an impact study on your proposed flood.

I'm still trying to resolve a complaint with the Human Rights Commission on how many minorities I'm supposed to hire for my building crew.

Immigration and Naturalization are checking the green-card status of most of the people who want to work.

The trades unions say I can't use my sons. They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark-building experience.

To make matters worse, the HM Customs seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species.

So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least 10 years for me to finish this Ark.

Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky.

Noah looked up in wonder and asked,
'You mean you're not going to destroy the world?'

'No,' said the Lord.
'The government beat me to it.'

[safewalrus]

Now that sounds familiar........if a little hasty! You won't get anywhere if your hasty!!

[Jimbo1490]

Thomas,

DDT has very similar effects as pyrethrins and pyrethroids, both of which remain in use to this day. As mentioned in the articles I cited, thinning of egg shells has many different causes. In at least three of the articles turned up in the Google search you suggested, high serum mercury levels were also present. This is also known to cause egg shell thinning, but has nothing to do with DDT exposure. No attempt was made (or could be made?) to factor this out. If DDT is so bad, and pyrethrins and pyrethroids so similar and still widely used, then why have raptor birds recovered so well? What about the carefully controlled feeding experiments that showed DDT didn't cause egg shell thinning? Don't they count? Could it be (as suggested in the articles I cited ) that many of the original conclusions are suspect? Trying to arrive at a conclusion as to what is causing a problem like egg shell thinning in wild birds has to be a very daunting task as there are so many confounding factors, not the least of which is other industrial pollutants like mercury. I'd personally put a lot more stock in a controlled feeding experiment where all the animal's serum levels can be controlled.

The environmental movement has a long history of using largely discredited "Extrapolated LD-50" type measurements to arrive at 'safe' and 'toxic' serum levels. The first article you posted on this subtopic were ALL extrapolated LD-50 measurements. Read it and see for your self. These are FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED methods and can't be trusted to give anything like an accurate estimate of what is a safe exposure level and what is not. The LD-50 for pure water (for an adult human) is something like a couple of gallons (or about 75 g/Kg) and we absolutely KNOW that pure water can be safely imbibed at levels 1/100 this level every day for the rest of your life! Every substance has a toxic threshold; extrapolated LD-50 measurements ignore this fact.

And none of these earlier environmental studies seem to take into account the sheer tragic numbers of these animals that 'sport' shooters (used to) slaughter. I think at the time it was happening it was just not a well-known fact. Many western states had certain 'gather points' where thousands of raptors of different species used to congregate. The so-called 'sport' hunters loved these places and would sit there and shoot these birds down all day. Certain government bounties probably did a lot to foster a hatred of these birds as pests, too.

The truth is their numbers were already on the rebound years before DDT was ever banned (largely due to changing attitudes of the sport shooters) begging the question once again of how DDT could have been the cause of their decline in the first place.

Jimbo

[masalai]

Might I suggest going here - http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html to download "hour 2" for Aug 23, 2008" featuring - - - M. David Stirling, - VP, Pacific Legal Foundation. . . . and Author is being interviewed and knows someone (aside from "Pharlap" the Australian race horse) who regularly took DDT at his lectures) all good fun stuff on bureaucracy and others making rash decisions to "save us from ourselves".....

Matthew Simmons
Book Information

[Meanz Beanz]

"Green Gone Wild"... yes the DDT thing was new to me!

I believe in climate change this year.... its flippin freezing down here!

[masalai]

Ahhhh get over it Heinz, that is normal Victorian weather.....

[Pericles]

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34315.html

http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2004/04/...ally-good.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/11/ma...5007&partner=X

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/200...-africans.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/200...ill-us-by.html

What a pity that the world is no longer warming!!

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/200...ect-storm.html

[the1much]

bout time Perz ,,,,,hiyas Beanzy,,,,i cant believe its changing,,,,i heard bout 12' snow drifts here in texas a few years ago,,,hahahaha

[Meanz Beanz]

Originally Posted by masalai

Ahhhh get over it Heinz, that is normal Victorian weather.....

Bollocks...

[Meanz Beanz]

Originally Posted by the1much

bout time Perz ,,,,,hiyas Beanzy,,,,i cant believe its changing,,,,i heard bout 12' snow drifts here in texas a few years ago,,,hahahaha

Fosty oil! LOL

[the1much]

doesnt gas burn better the colder it is?