What Do We Think About Climate Change

[Boston]

"We have mandated cleaner air through the controls of VISIBLE pollutants,
but failed to address INVISIBLE pollutants, the green house gas's
as the atmosphere gets even clearer
and the levels of co2 and of other green house gas's rise {{{for whatever reasons}}}
the temperature also rises, fast"


at no point did I suggest that we know exactly what the mechanism for climate change is
what I do suggest is that
climate change is happening
and that we may be able to influence those changes by altering our behavior

while it is true that one volcanic eruption can pound out more co2 than all the cars can over one year
it doesnt mean that that additional equivalent of an extra volcanic eruption makes no effect on the environment

the co2 issue is up in the air
what isnt is that co2 is rising fast
and the effects of that co2 are unknown
but there is some kind of correlation

personally I think old all gore should have done his homework
he is not a scientist
and since there was conflicting info
not have used the argument in his lecture
and the Nobel committee made an error in awarding a prize
before the research was in

in the end
you are correct
co2 appears to follow not proceed co2 levels

but you have missed the point
Im not basing my statements on co2
Im basing them on the combination of criteria that we are faced with
global dimming
global warming
and simple fluid dynamics
criteria that appear to play significantly in the historical stratification of the oceans
that stratification
is considered to be the most likely cause
our two largest extinction events

the circumstances leading up to those events
appear to be existent today

the point is
that if we change our behavior
we have a chance to modify the changes that are occurring
if we do nothing
then the changes occur and we live or die with them

the first and most important thing
is that we realize things are changing
and realize that we can effect those changes

we have an opportunity
do we squander it
and go the way of the dodo
or do we make effective and beneficial change
for all

B

[Boston]

interesting point
I agree
the end result of a disturbance in the grand oceanic current may be general cooling event
that is historically known in the fossil record
but look at all the black shales we have throughout the world
all laid down in the last anaerobic event
hundreds of feet thick
so both have happened before and may happen again

however
I would point out
at no point did I suggest that this was not a possibility
I merely didnt take the events through to that degree
what I suggest is that

the criteria for another major extinction event are in place
that those criteria are presently observable
and that we appear to be influencing those factors

if we were to influence them in a different way
could we not change the system for the better
instead of for the worse

throughout my previous missive I alluded to being optimistic
I am
I genuinely feel that the hundredth monkey will wake up
and a fundamental change will occur

I lecture as harshly as I do in order to wake students up
ok Im not talking to students
but an awakening still needs to occur

but I really mean it
I think we can beat this
if we pull our heads out of our buts
admit its happening
quit bickering over why
and make effective change

I genuinely appreciate both you gentleman responding to what was
now that I reread it
a pathetic first draft

my apologies
B

Ill categorize it and try to clean it up in future

oh
taking global cooling one step further
you get total crustal shift
major catastrophe
lots of evidence for it in the fossil record
a guy named Hapgood came up with it
was friends with Al
uncle Al
and it was pretty much rejected by the community
awesome theory
imagine the globe as a spinning top
now at present there is an equatorial bulge balancing that top
what if the ice caps were to grow to such a degree
that they place more weight on the poles than what is at the equator
would the earth not topple like a spinning top unbalanced
now
I ask you
why are there frozen fruit trees in the arctic
were there isnt enough light for them to grow
and why is there a berm of frozen animals around the Taiga forest
that is still mined today for fossil ivory
how do you explain the frontus finius map or the pie riece map
( I definetly spelled that wrong )
how is it that people long ago seem to know what the land mass under the ice caps looks like

kinda a mind f@%k isnt it
but it doesnt need to happen again
we can change

[freesail]

I'm strongly in support of conserving resources and trying to minimize the impact we have on our planet.

What I am not in support of is hippies and "environmentalists" who try to use this otherwise worthwhile cause to push forward other political agendas and increase taxes whilst not doing much actual conservation work.

As said by Patrick Moore: "I think one of the most pernicious aspects of the modern environmental movement is the romanticization of peasant life. And the idea that industrial societies are the destroyers of the world. The environmental movement has evolved into the strongest force there is for preventing development in the developing countries. I think it's legitimate for me to call them anti-human"

[the1much]

Originally Posted by freesail

I'm strongly in support of conserving resources and trying to minimize the impact we have on our planet.

What I am not in support of is hippies and "environmentalists" who try to use this otherwise worthwhile cause to push forward other political agendas and increase taxes whilst not doing much actual conservation work.

As said by Patrick Moore: "I think one of the most pernicious aspects of the modern environmental movement is the romanticization of peasant life. And the idea that industrial societies are the destroyers of the world. The environmental movement has evolved into the strongest force there is for preventing development in the developing countries. I think it's legitimate for me to call them anti-human"

"other political agendas",,,hippies??????,,,,dont you mean politicians????ya know,,,the ones that in the middle of a bill about,,oh lets say enviro clean-up,,,that stick a paragraph in that states that with this clean-up bill for 100 million bucks,,,we'll hide a bill for our retirement.???
you mean THAT kind of "other" agenda??
and hippies dont raise taxes,,,,who to f@k ever heard of that???,theres 545 people in the united states that raise our taxes,,,,thats it,,,,not you,,,not me (hippie) and not anyone in this forum.
dont stick hippies in with lying politicians,,,and the next time you say i DO something,,,,be right about it.
and ANYONE that doesnt think our smokestacks and our poisons dont hurt the earth is about as smart as those politicians.

[Boston]

what really sucks is that the political push and pull game detracts from the needed meaningfully change
and is used to gain profit instead of progress

Hippies
bunch of F%^$Dng hypocrites driving suv's and livin off mummies and daddies oil wells
haveing no idea what it meant to actually be a hippie

environmentalists
little or no sense of middle ground
radicals as damaging to the cause as the profiteering oil and plastics industry

but is it radical to ask
what are we to do
when ocean fish stocks are so strained they are on the verge of collapse
and we have subsidized our population on protein from the sea
if we stop or slow down fishing
some of us starve
if we wait untill the fisheries collapse
a lot more people starve
what is more humane

what decision would lead you to say of the man
making that hard choice
he did his best

[Boston]

well Im not likely to speak out against the one person on here who seems to be in support of what is
an other wise
no brainier
but
I gotta admit
Im dog sick of hippies
hippies hid in the university setting cause it gave them a way out of a war
I can dig that
but it gave the university a bad name
in that it led people to believe that the university was a political statement
its not
politics has no more place in the educational setting
than a dog in an opera

[the1much]

your thinking of the FAKE hippies,,,the "wannabe's" ,,real hippies believe in no war,,or harming,,,,but they also fight next to the farm boys during war,,,,i have ALOT of hippie friends that are in the service,,,,,,,,and even though i cant stand the people that HID from the war,,,,,,,,where did all the non-hippies hide?,,ya know,, the rich peoples kids?,,,ohhh,,, thats right,,they ran out of country to canada,,,,,,,and even saying that hippies "back then" are anything like hippies now is wrong,,,,,is like saying noone has changed since 1965,,,,,do doctors think the same as they did back then?how bout our fiberglassing techniques??,, are the old glassers the same and think the same as the new glassers?,,, you guys are just stereotyping,,,which in this day and age we should know that IT doesnt work,,,,,,,kinda like when the public gets pissy bout cops do it to us. kinda like gender bias,,,,,and all others,,,,,,,now i know a few IDIOTS that mess with metal,,,and i mean they are IDIOTS to the fullest,,,and here in the oilfields,,welders are a dime a dozen,,,and the MAJORITY are total idiots,,,,,so,,, by you guyses standards,,,i should think metal workers are ALL IDIOTS?

[freesail]

Originally Posted by the1much

"other political agendas",,,hippies??????,,,,dont you mean politicians????ya know,,,the ones that in the middle of a bill about,,oh lets say enviro clean-up,,,that stick a paragraph in that states that with this clean-up bill for 100 million bucks,,,we'll hide a bill for our retirement.???
you mean THAT kind of "other" agenda??
and hippies dont raise taxes,,,,who to f@k ever heard of that???,theres 545 people in the united states that raise our taxes,,,,thats it,,,,not you,,,not me (hippie) and not anyone in this forum.
dont stick hippies in with lying politicians,,,and the next time you say i DO something,,,,be right about it.
and ANYONE that doesnt think our smokestacks and our poisons dont hurt the earth is about as smart as those politicians.

My case in point: Al Gore, who preaches environmental friendliness whilst flying around in a private jet and using more electricity in a month living in his "green" house than 10 average households use in a year.

And I find people who have to react in such manner as yours when somebody offers a different point of view to be extremely immature and impolite. I'm sure we can all share point of views in an educated manner.

Also, my comment was in no way saying smokestacks and poisons don't hurt the earth. My apology for the not stating what I meant by hippie.

[the1much]

hahahaha,,free,,,,al isnt a hippie,,,he's a politician that makes money saying what people wanna hear,,,hahahaha

[the1much]

and like its been said a million times,,,,either side can find idiotic radicals on the other side,,,you pick gore,,,,, i pick the so called geniuses that say we're not doing ANY harm to the earth.,,,, so give me the excuses that the "non-hippie" side has for their radicals and idiots.

[freesail]

No, the people who think we shouldn't conserve resources are idiots.

[Boston]

ya Im guilty
I just have trouble with what passes for hippies round here
kinda drives me nuts
some filthy punk who figures they got it down
when in the end they know about enough to be dangerous
and have no clue of middle ground

as apposed to the opposite spectrum of folks
the pseudo scientists
speaking what the man tells him to speak
blindly
long enough that that man finally believes it himself

check this
we are on the edge of an extinction event
all the cards are in place
and are falling fast
there's not much of an argument about that

why they cards are falling is another question
but does that really mater

its like staying in a burning building
arguing who set the blaze
just long enough to die of asphyxiation

stupid

we can change the direction of the fall
if we try
maybe not prevent it
but maybe make it a lot more palatable
should we
or is it more important to determine who set the fire

industry
and the public
have got to find middle ground

those hippie types
tend to be relatively intransigent
as well as the industrialists

thats not a formula for change

and we dont have time for that

[freesail]

What we need is to have people who are educated running the show, not politicians with the aim of simply pleasing green voters.

e.g. improving public transport whilst, at the same time, working with automakers to develop environmentally friendly cars. Personal transport will always coexist with public transport. Its about using resources smartly (e.g. don't drive when you can walk to somewhere close).

[the1much]

ive said it a few hundred times on this thread,,,but,,, no matter what, we're gonna go through the mass kill off,,,,its nature to start again,,,,we've had 1 huge kill off... and many small ones,,,and we WILL have another big 1 soon,,,theres nothing we can do bout it,,,,,,
what we CAN do,,,is postpone it ( because we HAVE made it come faster then it should) and we can make it easier for the earth to "recover" after,,,,even though we wont be here,,hehe,,,,
and its not WHAT we're putting in the enviro. that harming us the most,,,because alot of that "stuff" does occur naturally,,,,,,but its the AMOUNT we're putting in,,,,,,,,,like per. always saying,,,,look at volcanoes,,,( these numbers are just numbers to show something,,,NOT real numbers) say in 1000 years the earth spits out clouds of toxic gas from em,,,,lets say 100 tons of yuck,,,,,well,,,, the earth is used to that,,,it happens almost every day,,,,,so 100 tons aint no biggie to earth,,,it can handle a thousand of tons at once and deal with it,,,,,,,well,,,today WE"RE putting in 975 tons,,,then,,,opps,, a volcano went off,, and splurt another 100 tons,,,,,uhoh,,,, now we're up to 1075 tons today,,,,thats 75 more then we can handle,,,,BUT IT WAS NATURAL,,,,the volcano didnt harm us,,,it did what it was SUPPOSE to do,,,,, so what put us over the safe amount?

[the1much]

Originally Posted by freesail

What we need is to have people who are educated running the show, not politicians with the aim of simply pleasing green voters.

e.g. improving public transport whilst, at the same time, working with automakers to develop environmentally friendly cars. Personal transport will always coexist with public transport. Its about using resources smartly (e.g. don't drive when you can walk to somewhere close).

sad thing is,,,,, most the radicals are educated,,,,book smats just a cover-up for people who are lazy,,,hehe
both sides have their experts,,,,and both sides play with whatever # helps their cause.