W

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Only Hollywood can do this man justice...

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzZzsvOClc ...

SH..

[daiquiri]

LOL!

Thumbs up for this one.

[Petros]

Reality has never been a high priority for Hollywood, this too is likely a work of fiction. I would not mistake this trashy hit price for actual history, it is a work of fiction that comes out of the strange and alternate reality where Hollywood resides.

[masalai]

That is how USA is often perceived by people living outside.... and "historically" not far off - - except for US citicens who seem to become ultra sensitive and defensive of a society that often seems bigoted, and as ridiculous as many of the extreemists it blames for all the global woes....

[TollyWally]

lol,
I'm a US citizen, well versed in history, aware of her faults and unwilling to let a slur go unchallenged. This nation's basic premise rests upon a foundation of individual liberty. The United States was formed specifically as the antithesis of Europe, it is both healthy and expected that our views should differ from theirs.

To expect truth from Hollywood is at best a bit naive. This may be an interesting thread. I hope cooler heads will prevail.

[BillyDoc]

Good one Sean! And with a life-or-death message for my fellow Americans. We ARE *******s!!!!! And until we face that fact and correct it we will continue to be the *******s of the world. Seriously dangerous and self-destructive *******s.

Our American society has been molded with the false-morality of religion into an unquestioning mass of authoritarians. We can't question an "authority" no matter how heinous he may be. The ability to do so has been carefully brain-washed out of our psyche. In defense of my countrymen, I think this was consciously done to them by a greedy few who will simply do anything to feed their greed. They did this by taking advantage of the natural openness and trust of Americans who would, given a choice, not be *******s at all but very decent human beings.

So Hollywood, or at least a faction in Hollywood, is trying to raise our consciousness above the lies with videos like this one, and the much more powerful "Religulous" by Bill Maher and Larry Charles. Religulous is billed as a comedy and certainly does show the ridiculousness of religion, but it ends with a very serious little talk where Maher points out that the end result of this form of insanity is "either grow up, or die."

Another attempt at educating our "In God We Trust" Americans through art is below.

BillyDoc

[eponodyne]

Originally Posted by TollyWally

lol,
I'm a US citizen, well versed in history, aware of her faults and unwilling to let a slur go unchallenged. This nation's basic premise rests upon a foundation of individual liberty. The United States was formed specifically as the antithesis of Europe, it is both healthy and expected that our views should differ from theirs.

To expect truth from Hollywood is at best a bit naive. This may be an interesting thread. I hope cooler heads will prevail.

No, the constitutional form of governance was formed as a response and refutation of hereditary monarchism. The USA was formed because we could not abide being taxed without representation (among other excesses foisted on us by the British).

Truth can come out of Hollywood. Probably not this time, though; but as this is an Oliver Stone film, it would be a mistake to look at it as a documentary.

It's only entertainment.

[Design_1]

The slurs you guys are sitting here slinging are the proof that any one nation of people can, and are, bigotous of another. Until we learn to live amongst one another without pre-conceived notions of others following our personal wants, desires and beliefs the world will never be more than it is today.

And noone cares about hollywood, but hollywood.

[masalai]

35 cents a cup of coffee? where the soup kitchen for the homeless? - - I thaught it was free there...

[TollyWally]

Eponodyne,
I imagine our differences here may be rather small. Your points on taxation without representation are well taken.

But I stand by my opinion that this nation was founded to be what Europe was not, a place where liberty was sovereign. As Jefferson so eloquently put it in the Declaration of Independence, "...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" seemed more important than the exact way these self evident truths were guaranteed. The founding father's genius was in the feedback loops of the republican form of government that Franklin challenged us to keep.

So far it's worked out rather well, BillyDocs opinion aside.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by TollyWally

Eponodyne,
But I stand by my opinion that this nation was founded to be what Europe was not, a place where liberty was sovereign.

Back in 1776 the intent of the Declaration of Independence was to create a country of freedom, but something has changed along the path and don't be so sure you are so free today as you believe you are.

I think that if George Washington could come to this world again to see what's going on, you would very soon have another American Revolution over there.

Let's make it clear - I'm not against U.S. I recognize its enormous importance in the modern history and the benefits that many countries owe to the U.S. But I also believe that at present it is heading in a bad direction politicaly, economicaly, environmentaly, morally and religiously.

This is unfortunately no more the U.S. that during the mid 20th century was a lighthouse for the world. It has become something terribly different.

[Design_1]

lol Masa- I don't think anything is free any more. It cost money to just sit at home and do nothing!

daiquiri- I agree with some of your points. Our government has outgrown its usefullness, it is now a liability. But my point in all of this, is that anywhere an individual american goes we are condemned as the soul perpetuator of our govrnments mistakes. When in all actuallity may completely disagree with our governments views on a lot of major issues, but remain proud to be American. Non can judge me fairly by another mans deeds. Every man or woman should be weighed by their own actions.

As far as freedom and taxes go. Don't pay your taxes this year and see how free you are. Don't pay property taxes on the home you think you own and when the goverment sets it on the auction block, you will see who really owns it. The goverment owns this entire country and we all pay rent to live here. But it is still a beautiful place to rent

[BillyDoc]

Gentlemen,

I just want to clear up one thing: I am definitely not against the form of government set up by our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, I think it was an act of genius and a beautiful solution to a very difficult problem. It did, however, include a fatal loophole that was known at the time.

Which is why I'm deeply pissed at THIS government, because our beautiful Republic has been completely subverted, sold to the highest bidder by a treasonous few, and those few are the owners of our largest Corporations. The United States has not been a Constitutional Republic for about a century now. It has been taken over and is now completely Fascist. Fascist as in: "A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism." (New college Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Copyright 1969) There has been a coup, carried out by our greedy members as a means of stripping the rest of us of our assets. Religion, constant lying, and media control have been their tools.

Unfortunately, the spirit our Founding Fathers showed now seems rather rare. Our collective backbone has been removed and is nowhere to be found. I know this for a fact because I made a serious attempt to affect this situation a few years ago by setting up a web site called "BreakTheLink" with the goal of getting citizen's initiatives started to put the dictionary definition of bribery into every State's law that allowed this form of democracy. That definition, "Anything given to persuade or induce" would have directly affected campaign contributions. Campaign contributions are not "good citizenship" when provided by corporations, they are a "legal" form of bribery.

Over 15,000 people came to the BreakTheLink website. Hundreds sent me messages saying what a good idea it was and wishing for it's success. I did the paperwork in Florida to register the initiative, had the forms printed --- the works. All that was needed to do was to collect signatures to get the initiative on the ballot. A very simple initiative that directly addressed the issue of bribery. When I went out to collect signatures every single person I asked to sign the initiative, did. Every single one!

But my work was pretty obviously an "in your face" effort effectively saying to our Politicians that they are taking bribes, and We The People don't like it. Directly against our sacred Authorities, in other words. Scary business, it seems, for cowards.

Fifteen thousand people saw the effort, several hundred other web sites linked to it --- and NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON WOULD HELP! After two years of effort, begging and pleading for that help, I gave it up. I have concluded that we are an entire nation of Kitty Genovese's neighbors. Too scared to lift the phone and do anything, even though a young lady is being murdered before our very eyes in our front courtyard. That young lady stands now in New York harbor, but only as a seldom understood symbol with her foundations corroding away. She will soon topple over into the muck to never be seen again.

BillyDoc

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Design_1

But my point in all of this, is that anywhere an individual american goes we are condemned as the soul perpetuator of our govrnments mistakes.

That's probably because human beings still use to judge emotionaly rather than rationaly. But it is also true that you guys have elected W twice, well knowing who W/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz are after the first 4 yrs of gov.'s mandate, which is not really a small sin...

Originally Posted by Design_1

Non can judge me fairly by another mans deeds. Every man or woman should be weighed by their own actions..

Absolutely. I've been in US (New York, Nebraska, Kansas) and I've got to know what a fantastic people live over there. It was a kind of race among them about who would treat me better, invite me to their homes, show me all the places ecc. I judge individual people by these and only by these things.

But when it comes to the actions of your governments in the last few decades, well guess you have understood what I think.

P.S.
I have learned the term "national interest" for the first time from an american movie. And for quite a long time I could hear it only in the american movies and political speeches. It sounded so strong that it looked like that "national interest" (which means "U.S. national interest") was something placed above God himself. That "national interest" is, imho, the clue-phrase that can explain why the U.S. is now in the situation you have described above.

[Design_1]

daiquiri- Glad to hear that you do judge each man for his own action. I keep a conscious mind to do the same. Which is contrary to what I have been taught the most of my life ( american schools are governmental teaching machines), as are most schools in most contries. I do understand your view, and many others, of the current government.

BillyDoc- I whole heartedly agree with you. This nation as a whole has become a lazy, apethetic people expecting this government to "do what is best for us".

A quote for the day: "It may be true,that "you can't fool all the people all the time,but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country." --Will & Ariel Durant