Vessel security patrols!

Just a discussion thread to suss out what you boat owners think of my latest idea!

Having moved to a new abode about a month ago - here on the canals - I figured having the new boat tied up outside the house on it's own jetty would be the ultimate....anytime I want to go fish - just turn the key - cast off and go!

Bout 2 weeks after arriving, my eldest son interuppted 2 guys at 2.30 am one tuesday morning trying to break into our vessel to presumably steal it or contents / electronics.

They did a runner in their little dingy.

Had i not been sleepin stark nekkid and still half asleep when the son woke me - I might have had the presence of mind to start the boat and give chase, and run em down, get their ID off the side of their boat - call the police and tail them, until they made landfall again or something along those lines.

Truthfully - by the time I even thought of it, they were long gone.

Sooo...

I got to thinkin - Ok - I am insured - but the damage - inconvenience etc sure is a pain in the butt - and take away from the enjoyment of having a house on the canals and a boat tied up outside ready to go at a moments notice!

Then I got to thinking, - I wonder if anyone does water born marine security patrols of the canals - to keep an eye on peoples boats and to deter thieves from even attempting to break in / steal boats?

I internet searched for Oz and only came up with one company who do so - and definitely not in my area.

Does anyone know if this is a service that IS offered for example in the USA around Florida canals for example (or elsewhere?).

What would it be worth to a boat owner to have a security guard marine patrol, check over their vessel with a weather eye and security eye - for any damage / signs of people attempting to board or otherwise tamper with their vessel a couple times a night?

Would such owners willingly pay say $150/year for such a peace of mind service? (bearing in mind they probably already have marine insurance to cover any such loss?)

I am seriously thinking of starting up such a business, maybe even franchising it nationally eventually.

But I am curious whether boat owners value their boats enough to actually pay an annual fee to have their vessel included in a nightly water born vessel patrol watch circuit, by a qualified security guard....

I know some people really love their boats - but will they actiually pay cold hard cash to protect them from theives?

I have a meeting this week with the company who have the existing patrol in a location up the coast from me - to see if I can offer the service here under their banner....

And I have a meeting with the largest marine Insurance co downunder to see if there is some way they can "sponsor us" / help out with maybe a rebate on insurance premiums for those members who take up a patrol membership for a year.

Do you guys think people would pay to know their vessels being watched regularly thru the wee hours each night?

If so - what would it be worth to people?...a sliding scale for size/value of the vessel - or a flat fee?

What are your gut feelings?

Many thanks in advance!

Cheers!

[yipster]

hmm, you were lucky notting is missing.
maybe its an idea but i dont think people like powerboating in the backyard at night.
i see more in a alarmsystem. good for doing some shopping beeing away also.
made one last year from a 12v motion detector and police horn.
havent really used it but works great and so far it costed only € 15 but dont know if its legal and havent tested it on spiders.
anyway, i'm not so nicely situated and my marina does the security patrols.

[safewalrus]

The idea IS appealing (being in a Naval Dockyard Port the area is Patrolled by Ministry Of Defence Police launches! these guys are armed and do know how to use their guns - unlike the average British copper who don't!) so we're OK! But your average boat owner, like everybody else is rather tight with his money when he does't see any tangible results!
OK once his boat had been broken into he'd then consider such a service but until then, mmmm
then he'd expect you round every five minute for the first month! Forget it after that it cost's too much!
Personally I think it's a great idea in the right place, with the right gear and contact with the local Police. But you need to be careful who you use how you advertise it and just as importantly the style of boat in the locality.

An alternative would be a cooperative of local owners, in teams of two radio linked to the rest and the Police. Each team does either set hours or days within a selected area looking out for each others boats! See how it develops!

[Vega]

An alarm system conected to a central seems the way to go. Like: boat alarm----house central alarm---telephone----Alarm central service--- security quick inspection.

[safewalrus]

Yeah Vega looks good on paper but to catch these guys you need somebody on the water fully booted and spured, and more importantly aware! Even if your at the other end of the patrol when the alarm goes of its lights and alarms full on and make like an American Cop Movie! By the time your series of alarms etc has gone off the thief is long gone (and so is your boat!)

Remember it takes a little time to break in so it needs to be quiet and empty! A patrol boat is enough to keep your thief off the boat/head down until your gone, random and eratic patrols should be enough to get him to go look elsewhere for easier pickings!

[kach22i]

Dog and shot gun...........................old but true.

[RHough]

A combination of random patrols and an alarm system might well work.

You would need a huge number of customers to make it viable though.

I would expect 24/7 coverage, not just after dark. That means at least 6 full time staff in the boat for one area. Security guard pay? $12-15 per hour is $2000-2500 per week. You would need a second boat so one is on the water at all times. Per hour costs of operation (fuel/maintenance/repairs)? $15/hr?
That's $5000 a week or $260,000 per year. At $150/year for the service you need over 1700 customers just to operate at break even. 1700 boats in a marina is one thing, 1700 boats in on patrol-able canal is another. How many miles of canal do you have to cover to get 1700 boats?

A more realistic estimate would be 1700 boats @ $300 per year so you can buy boats etc. and have operating capital. How many people pay more than $300 per year for their insurance?

[SamSam]

Originally Posted by trouty

couple times a night?
$150/year

2 x 365 =730 checks per year--$150 / 730 checks = 20.5 cents per check.
That's not much. The labor alone at $15 an hour is 25 cents a minute. Sam

Thanks too to jef for putting this in the right forum... I always seem to end up in the boat design forum - sorry Jeff! (It's where my bookmark takes me).

Anyway in answer to some very good questions...

There are about ~17 nautical miles of canals where I am (but you have to go up and back down almost each one)...so say 35 Nmiles of canals to patrol (at no wash speeds of 5 knots or less...say 3knots at night.

To get to each Canal development, and patrol and come back home is about a 62 Nm round trip...some of it at max 8 or 12 knots zones thru Estuary - some at WOT..

Either way - it's an all night proposition to cover each canal every night just once...until I get the 2nd boat.

There are 10,000 regisered vessels in the area according to the official figures - with growth expected to 46,ooo inside 5 years.

Even if I only got say 10% of the vessels as members...

1000 members in forst year @ say $300/ annum = $300 K

If as predicted in 5 years ownership grows to 46,000 & I still only get 10% of owners as members....(4600 @ $300 / annum)....$1.38M/annum

Of course - if 20% or more could be persuaded to join...then things get a lot better - i.e. - less $ per year to become a member or more patrols per night etc etc..

I think it's definitely "do-able"..

To put the development into perspective...around here...

A vacant lot on a canal frontage (~450 - 500 square meters..or 1/8th acre) starts at $350K - and goes to $1.2 or $1.8M....for the vacant lot.

For one with a family 4 x 2 Home (or better) on it goes from $650K - $2.5M

Lots of $1M+ waterfront places are town houses / appartments (condo's?)

Anyway - there are vessels here over 70 meters length...

It's a millionaires playground (only i ain't no gazzilionaire)...so i need to find something that pays well to continue to live here...and i figure this thing has a heck of a lot of potential...

There are new canal developments going on all around us...

We are only 1 hour by road from Capital City Perth, on a huge estuary / inlet system with 2 rivers feeding it, and year round access to the ocean...it's a boating mecca....

It's west Australia's answer to Queenslands - Gold Coast (Or the USA's Florida).

Heck we have suburbs here on the water actually named Miami, Florida etc..

Anyway - I reckon this has legs and will get up n swim, If I can make it work.

I am not advers to the idea of alarms systems for vessels - however, movement sensor alarms could be a problem - virtually all vessels move as others pass by in the canals systems - from wake waves...so movement sensor alarms, could be a problem.

I will keep working away at this...I'm an insomniac anyway - can't sleep at night so might as well be on the water. I reckon theres enough canals / boats etc and dstance between them all to warrant at least 2 patrol boats eventually.

any more feedback welcomed - does anyone know of a service where this already happens?...other than homeland security type armed patrols paid for by govt / taxpayers??

Currious to see - what others may have developed as a service / business - in this respect (if anything).

Boat theft here is a massive problem...not jst the whole vessel itself (which does happen a lot and seems to be well organised crime rings based....probably run by the local Bikers clubs) but theft of expensive electronics and tender vessels etc.

Some Marina's do have "security" patrols but only your normal land based vehocle patrol - nothing actually on the water...and most land based patrols only see the front yard of the house- not the vessel out back in the canals...so are in effect no deterrent at all.

Still workin on this.

Cheers!

I hear you and am still crunching the numbers - trust me!

I think as you've pointed out - that for few members - the cosat would need to go up (considerably - probably somewhere near $600/ annum) for 'break even' at 1000 members.

That said - the problem here is so prolific, and the number of boats / boaters in the community so high - that I have a suspicion - I won't have a great deal of difficulty getting memberships - I think the problem MAY end up being not able to cover the demand at startup!

Time will tell of course.

Some of the vessels here, Particularly the larger ones are worth many many millions of $ each - while others are in the hundreds of 1000's - and yet others, probably not worth the cost to cart then to the refuse site for dumping...i.e. the full range...

I am thinking i will have to have a sliding scale of fee for size / value of boat.

We have huge problems with boat theft...and it is organised. I have no doubts elements the local boating service / sales community are probably involved, The problem stems from, lack of co ordination between state police authorities....

Boats are stolen here, re birthed and trucked east for sale in Queensland the same week... - the same enclosed (pantek) trucks haul vessels stolen on the east coast & reborthed - back here for sale.

There is no national hull number register for example.....it's a state based system, with no cross checks by licensing authorities, to see if a hull or engine is on any register of stolen property in other states.

The reason i suggest involvement of elements within the local boating sales / service industry, is because - these people are 'best placed' to provide the details to the theives - i.e they know what they have sold to whom, where it's kept and what it's inventory of gear is. The theives appear to "steal to order".

They are easey to spot - they 'cruise the canals' - in "party barges", drinking and pretending occasionally to be fishing or scooping prawns etc as a cover story - all the while - they are casing vessels to return to under cover of darkness.

The local Boating sales / Service fraternity are very mobile - travelling interstate often to meet others within the boating sales / service fraternity in the Eastern States etc - where "shopping lists" are exchanged, payments etc made and deals done.

It's organised crime and big time stuff...

The police know this but do nothing to stop it - lots of them are 'on the take' - to keep quiet and to ensure no national register of stolen vessels equiipment ever gets underway...and that no "co-operation" between state police services ever happens - otherwise a very lucrative "theft / rebirthing industry" within the legitimate boat sales / service industry - would dry up overnight.

I don't expect to "cure the problem" at all - other than to catch those at the bottom of the rung...

Most likely, those at the top of the rung - will be out to shut me down before I get started - but we will see...

Way i see it - the more these scum bags keep stealing - the more people - will want my services, and be prepared to pay...so in effect - it's not really in my interests to interfere with the existing status quo.

I just see a role - where perhaps I can spin a buck is all.

Time will tell.

Cheers!

[yipster]

i imagine at the inlet of the resort some optical sensors can save lots of U hauls, money and time.
informed ahead of iregularitys you would have time to prepare for the upcoming high speed open water chase.

Chase Yipster?

Wot chase? ....I wuz figurin on just blowin em outta the water 'n ask questions later!

I guess maybe I should post up a scan of the area I'm talking about - theres a lot of open water in the estuary and a couple rivers they can run up - or they can run to sea - if they think they have the fuel range to get to the next port I guess...

Thing is, mines a ex patrol & rescue vessel for the Marine & harbours / Fisheires dept....meaning it's built to run down boats stupid enough to try 'n do a runner...or alternatively to be able to stay at sea for extended periods to search for missing vessels / boaters.

Ain't no one going to outrange or outrun me - period.

All I really need to do - is stay with em and relay the info to Police, so they can intercept them when they make landfall.

Now think about this...

IF they tried to run to sea...(dumb azzed idea)...they hafta actually MAKE it to the next port...round here - threres no guarantee of that, of course - I guess if they steal one of the 200 ft plus luxury cruisers they could probably make New Zealand without refuelling..so - maybe tailing em that far might be a problem.

Yeah - sensors might help....but I think if you see the type of canals system i'm speaking of....you will see - that any sensor will be going off 100 times a night from all the boat traffic in and out of every canal.

You see Yipster, lots of wealthy retirees live here, and they are forever going in and out in boats all times of day (and some nights) for prawning, crabbing, fishing etc etc etc. Some just take their boat to go visit other retirees and get on the Wooobla all day so they can wobble on home at night in their boat on the canals and not get caught by booze bus, driving cars home drunk...

At Holidays time (like now Christmas / New Years & School holidays) the place is just crawling with holidaymakers in boats all comming and going all times of day and night in boats....it's busier out front of my place than a main highway intersection in the city!

Sensors might not be the easey solution - you think. (in my opinion for this situation, Yipster).

The crooks - come here ostensibly for a "holiday" with family (kids) as a cover story usually - they stay at cheap "caravan parks" - and put their small 12 ft (3.9 meter) aluminium dingys in the water with small 4 stroke OB's (some even use silent electric trolling motors for stealth).

They drive up & down the canals in daytime with the kids - "fishing", while really they are casing the houses to see who is home and which are holiday homes that are vacant...

Many of the holiday homes which are vacant have boats penned out front of each house. Maybe no one will be home for 3 months at a time or sometimes more.

So - when they spy a nice boat (or equipment -- radar colour sounders and chart plotters etc...llots of expensive fishing gear...and most particularly the inflatable RIB's type tenders with new 4 stroke OB's - you often see on the foredeck of flybridge cruisers), they take note.

Then under cover of darkness, midweek, early hours of morning when canals are free of boat traffic, they come in dingy (kids are by now asleep in Caravan at Caravan park)...with silent outboard - very quiet down canal.

They tie up to your boat...and board - break in and steal whatever they want, and away they go - with your Rib tender boat & outboard, your electronics, and probably your deep sea fishing gear.

On a well stocked boat they may get say...

Rib Tender & OB =$10,000
Electronics = $20,000
Fishing gear = $10,000

Not a bad nights work for 1 hour!

They steal to order.... Furuno electronics...(not cheap black n white stuff)...
New tenders & OB's etc etc.

They tend to take boats for re-birthing, that are mainly trailerable type...you know the type - say 18 - 20 ft (6 - 7 meters) maybe worth $50,000 - $100,000,

What they do - is steal a suitable trailer from unattended launch ramps during the day - to suit the type of vessel they plan to steal that night!

So - you might be out fishing all day and come back to launch ramp - only to find - your vehicle there - but boat trailer gone?

Who would want just a boat trailer????

I tell you who - the guy who is going to steal a boat that will fit on that trailer - the same evening which he has spotted tied up in a canal at a house jetty...where it appears no one is home!!!

So... - he hides trailer in bushes off a backroad out of town for remainder of day, then retrieves it at night from hiding spot...and takes it to nearest launch ramp - where he plans to steal boat from canal to suit trailer.

This is how the game is played...there is a ring involved - they steal up to 3 boats & trailer simultaneously, i.e - there are 3 groups of guys all doing this in different area's around the estuary canals systems at the same time!.

Each group may get up to 3 or more boats each per night!

Then - the transport truck arrrives - on back road out of town - the thieves tow stollen boats and trailers, out to meet truck and load up truck. 6 or 8 boats & trailers, plus electronics / tenders etc all stacked in pantec body of truck, (this is road train type - 3 dog trailers, with roll down tarpaulin sides to cover load and make not visible).

Boats are on the highway headed east (3000 miles trip) (averaging 60 miles per hour)...50 hours , i.e. 2 days straight, non stop driving (one driver - no sleep!!) across entire continent.

By time you wake up in morning and say "Oh god - my boat is gone" and report to Police - Insurance company etc - your boat is already 1000 miles and 3 states away!

There are so many truck across nullarbore plain (entire country) in both directions each day that it is not humanly possible to check each and every one manifest / cargo...many with shipping containers even (full of boats / stolen gear).

They are delivered to boat dealers who "ordered" certain types / styles they know they can sell straight away - re birthed in their workshops (new paint colour, new pin stripes design & colour, re trimmed upholstery in new colour, different trailer (stolen) each of which is re-licensed in new state with no checks by authorities on hulls id or trailers VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) purely because their IS no "National" register!!!.

(Where can possibly be excuse for that in todays day and age of computers??? )

Honest people buy near new "stolen / rebirthed boats trailer packages" in this country every day and don't know it. In many cases the owners wouldn't recognise their own boat within 1 week after it is re-birthed!

The crooked dealers, "meet" each other to swap "shopping lists" for stolen boats - at "boatshows".

Yes - we who love boats and pay $ to go to every boat show to see new boats, inadvertantly fund the criminals who use these shows as "cover" under their legitimate businesses, to meet and do dishonest business. This happens at night after hours of boat show - at restaurants / hotels etc, when industry members all go out to "network" with other industry members.

So - the boatshows is how crooked dealers, do business with their likewise crooked dealers interstate!

It is purely "organised crime" Yipster and is big scale over here, we are after all - a continent with extremely high boat ownership rates - since the entire continent is surrounded by water...

So stolen boat traffic goes both directions, (east & west) - the same truck returns with boats stolen in Eastern States - to be re birthed by the crooked dealers in the west & vice versa!.

This I know I can't stop Yipster, but - the people who do the stealing...I CAN "catch" (follow and provide details to police and insist that police "intercept" as they make landfall).

I think - when organised crime finds out that security patrols on water exist...the lower rung people who actually do the stealing - will get scared to do the task! In many cases - these are employees of the boatyard (mechanics / electronics etc) who are experienced in gear installations etc...they know boats and gear - they are experts who "shop to order".

It is a "paid holiday with the kids operation" - they are "on holidays from work, keeping the misuss and kids happy during the day, by fishing etc with them - then at night - they make extra holiday pay by stealing to order for their boss - what he has contracted to deliver to his "partners" in the east and vice versa.

The honest boater does not have much of a chance...if he has a boat they want. They KNOW who has this boat - because, often they sold it new to the client!!!! They do the servicing - they have the address! They have the opportunity to make new keys etc for the boats while it is being serviced!!!

It is a big time rackett Yipster.

Probably I will walk into a bullet for spilling the beans!

Ohh well!

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Two things here Trouty - as you've already said "you'll probably walk into a bullet for spilling the beans" And once the crooks realise theres patrols about they'll have armed lookout men to sort the patrols out! this puts the wages up a tad for the patrolmen/women - if you can find any!

Secondly if you know that much why are you wasting your time looking after the boats -you know your on a looser. Go join a gang and make some real money! Whilst I wouldn't suggest that you do anything dishonest it would appear that that is the sensible option or am I missing the point?

Safewalrus!

Yes - & that is - the participation by security firm employees in the theft / industry!

Who better than securty staff to provide the inside scoop to crooks on whats stored where, by whome and when the patrols check it out?

Of course - security men...

Maybe I'll be approached to suss out for the crooks...which are the best boats and best times - to be stolen?

I dunno Safewalrus - why'd you hafta go n open that can of worms....

I could be talked out of this crazy idea you know...

A bullet would do it!

Hmm - crooks...bad crowds to be messing with...

That is a definite downside - i will admit tothat much - cost of patrols needs to go up some...(so I can pay someone with a bone head to be on the front lines!...while I direct the action from a safe distance!)

Hmm - sounding better all the time...

Might hafta draft me a employment advertisement...

Wanted - thickhead, can drive a boat!

That oughtta do it!

Cheers!

[safewalrus]

Trouty

sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but -

Fact

In the UK alone 60% of retail theft is done by the security guards!

If it's happening here must be happening elsewhere (Incidentally I've done some time (?) as a Security Guard (Shift Supervisor actually, posh see)! and no I didn't - it was 'roads security' different to 'retail security' unfortunately!

Whatever best of luck with the idea - I do think it's a good one apart from the 'devil's advocate' bit!

the Walrus