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  #1  
Old 02-14-2011, 12:45 PM
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lewisboats lewisboats is offline
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The value of time

Why is it some people always bring up the value of their time when they want to bash something that they don't like... like spending all kinds of money on marine plywood for a simple skiff or even a bit more complicated build but something that isn't planned on being around forever? They always claim that the value of their time is blah blah and even Blah!. If you enjoy building something then your time has no value as you are enjoying the process...you should be paying for privilege of doing it instead. If the time is so valuable that you have to harp on it then you would contract out the work because surely you can find someone who will do it cheaper than what you value yourself at and you can do something that is more in keeping with your perceived value. If you are trying to save money by doing it yourself then by definition you are valuing your work at zero to keep costs down. In none of these scenarios is it really necessary to constantly thump on people (especially newbies) who specifically state that they aren't looking for an heirloom craft but something for X reason that is going to get beat up or abused and isn't expected to last more than a few years. Seems like when a newbie posts a cheap project idea 1 one of the first 2 or 3 posts is someone pounding on the Marine ply and the Value of time. These people are usually in a place with where marine ply is readily available just down the road and one wonders who they are charging for their time which seems to be spend by the gobs on various and sundry internet forums. I wonder just how they would feel if they had to pay upwards of $120=$150 per sheet of 1/4" ply including shipping and how valuable their time would stack up to a bill for supplies that is 2-2.5 times what they would currently pay where they are now. I have seen plenty of new folks turned off by many of the replies that they get around here and on other forums. I am not referring to those few the charge onto the forum and bull around with a major attitude problem but those others who would simply like to try their hand at something without breaking the bank. To those who value their time so greatly they have to tell everyone about it...maybe not everyone wants to hear it and maybe not everyone has their bank accounts at the same level and their best currency IS their time and effort. Please stop deriding people for opting for cheaper materials once it has been explained to them about the differences...they made the choice and now the best thing to do is encourage them on the build and perhaps gently nudge them towards a better more quality build in the future.

Yes...I think if you are going to build a serious boat with many 100's or 1000's of hours involved and lots of cash spent on fitting it out etc you really should invest in the best materials because the investment is a small part of the overall. On the other hand...if you are building a skiff to motor or sail and it is probably going to be built in less than 50-60 hours and you don't want to spend more money than you can get past the wife (or husband) I see no reason why this person can't be encouraged instead of "best of everything or it is useless" -ed into giving up.

Sorry...had to get that off my chest. Back to your regularly scheduled browsing.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:11 PM
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CaptBill CaptBill is offline
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Imagine what Noah 'looked' like in his day. A man that spent 2/3 of his energy painting on 'coal tar epoxy' onto the hull of the Ark. Sure he looked like a friggin idiot grease monkey but he put in the time and hard work where it was necessary, the coating layer. TWO THIRDS of the Ark, as specified in the bible, was COATINGS. The thing had an inner and an outer layer of substantial thickness. A one piece composite build. Lasting performance? I can show you a hydrostatic load test God performed in 1978 on the Ark. You were to busy having disco fever when that happened.

My point is if we plan on spending lots of time building a boat may as well spend it well. And your best spent time on the build should be rewarded with a THICK,seamless, inner and outer shell casing. So much so that it is contributing as much or more so than the core. Then the actual core material becomes less an issue. It's all just wood. And 'marinizing' should be obtained by encapsulating the wood by THE BUILDER. Approach it with coatings as the main component with core as more a 'form' to build you 'sheathing coat', if you will. We are asking the 'core layer' to carry most of the load now.

I think Lewisboats whole point here is 'we should ignore what the experts are saying on the boat dock'. Those people judge by appearances mostly. Coal tar stains will never fly in their worldview. Truth is irrelevant.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:05 PM
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I think part of what he is talking about is the "hobby" boatbuilder. I fall into that category. I'm a freshwater only, couple hours on the weekends boater. Building boats is a huge part of the enjoyment. If I could find the same thing at Home Depot for $10 that West has for $50, I go cheap. (Did use West Epoxy, however!) I didn't use Marine Ply. And I used porch paint. But I'm expecting my boat to leak too much in one of our shallow lakes in a couple years - and then I'll pull it ashore, burn it, and get to build a new one.

My boatbuilding philosophy is ill advised for any combination of the following:
  • Saltwater
  • Competitions
  • Live-aboards
  • Resale
  • The aesthetically minded
  • Heirloom projects
  • Lifejacketless individuals
  • Professionals
  • etc.. (all others)

I do not profess myself to be a pro, nor do I tell anyone my boat is beautiful. But to me it is, and whenever I'm out on the water in something I built by my own hand, it's an exciting adventure!
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:53 PM
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cthippo cthippo is offline
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/\ /\ /\This

It's about the journey, not just the destination. Part of the joy of a boat is working on it, changing it, making it yours. I don't look at time spent on my boats as an expense, but as a benefit. It's not something I'm "giving up" in order to get what I want, it's time I'm spending doing something I love that will result in being able to do other things I love.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:37 PM
Poida Poida is offline
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What I can't understand, as well aslots of other things if, a person wants to build a rough craft out of whatever cheap material they wanted, why would they post their project on this website and ask for advice.

From all the advice you get, take the ones you want to use and discard the ones you don't.

I have a full time job and a part time business and I would appreciate any advice that would save my time.

So everyone is different and the people who try to assist with information don't know the financial state of the poster or how much time they have.

Got to go now, I've run out of time.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:42 PM
Submarine Tom Submarine Tom is offline
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"You have the watches, we have the time."

-Tom
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:42 AM
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Steve are you referring to this thread? inexpensive plywood

If you read it all the way through I think you'll find it was considerably different then your description above.

To the "description above" I think it's all about the time. Your time isn't free, at least not mine anyway, though I've wasted plenty of it of the years. Home brew boat building statistics suggest, that this "free time" is very costly, with the lose of friends, family, relationships, social and financial hardships, employment issues, etc. all taking a huge toll on the "free time" issue. Many a project has cost some or all of these things. Conversely, an equal number of projects have languished under the burden of damaged relationships, offended friends and family members, plus the obvious financial short falls.

Everyone of these is a direct result of the "time" placed into these projects, be they big or small, so I'll again suggest it's all about the time. In fact, this is one of the biggest hurtles a home built has to over come, scheduling the time and adjusting the schedule as thing come up, change, get back ordered, drop in unexpectedly, etc. Hell, who hasn't had a tool take a dump on them, in the middle of something and you just don't have $500 bucks for a new table saw. Well the 50 or so more strips you're milling out for that stripper don't care, but the new coffee table your wife had an eye on might.

Lastly, if you logged onto a car repair discussion forum and suggested that the automotive paints, are too costly and that you where going to roll and tip, your freshly home built 32 roadster, with Ace Hardware brand porch and deck acrylic enamel. What type of response do you think you'd get?
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:32 AM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAR View Post
Home brew boat building statistics suggest, that this "free time" is very costly, with the lose of friends, family, relationships, social and financial hardships, employment issues, etc. all taking a huge toll on the "free time" issue.
Fully agree.

When I did my masters/phd…I was working full time. So, where does the time come from to do this “labour of love”. Can’t go down the supermarket and buy 3 hours of time. What gave were my waste-line (I had no time for my usual daily exercises) and my social life. I was up at 5:30am for my long commute to work…arrived home at 6pm, worked in my study until 12pm every night. Weekends I spent all day (10 hours) in the uni library then home to write up again. Is this ‘free time’..???

As PAR noted. You’re half way through a job, and the saw breaks. So time spent stopping and buying a new one, and of course the money…but wait, as PAR noted, does the new coffee table take precedence? Do you buy the new saw or the coffe table. If you wait to save up that extra 50 or $50, who is to say another little disaster wont come along to take that /$50…like school shoes or school uniform, or the tyres on the car as it failed the MoT….

Again, you’re half way through a job, the wife (spouse) calls, Mr and Mrs Bloggs have popped around, we have been invited for dinner, stop what you’re doing. Do you:

a) Not go, finish the job, and end up arguing with the wife..(each time gets worse)
b) Not go, and lose your friendship with the Blogg’s (too many No’s)
c) Go, but end up having to re do the job later, as it was half done, thus taking much longer and more material costs too

Everything costs

Time is not just measured by money, it is also measured by the social implications of not spending time doing what you would otherwise be “free” to do, just for starters.

No such thing as a free lunch…basic economics!
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:26 AM
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cthippo cthippo is offline
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But that's true for everything, be it work, relationships, hobbies or any other activity. Balance in all things. If building a boat damages the other things in life that's not the fault of the boat, but of the builder. Spending too much time working on your boar is no different from spending too much time on the computer or working on your car or even too much time at work. It's not the activity that's the problem, but rather the choices of the person engaging in that activity.

Would you tell someone not to build (or worse, remodel) a house because it might damage their relationship? From what I've seen that's a far greater danger because most people don't live in the boat they are building. I don't think the potential damage to relationships argument is any more valid for boats than it is for any other activity.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:42 AM
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You're quite correct, it's not the project, but the point I was making is it's the time, regardless of what it's spent on. I'll argue that it's the time that is the most valuable part of any project. Given this, it's value must be fairly high, not free, not love, but a mandatory requirement, of success or failure.

The other point I was making is sometimes folks take too much from the discussions here. If you walk into a room of teachers and suggest they are wasting time on the fundamentals and should let their students "free range" their education with untested, non-recommenced and undocumented practices, the roar will be quick and loud. This shouldn't be frowned on, but rewarded as this is why we need and have teachers. In this unscripted environment, much worse has been suggested and I think for the most part calmer heads prevail. As Steve noted, he does try to use better materials when he can, As I've noted in the linked thread, sometimes a $500 boat just doesn't deserve $1,200 in BS-1088 plywood.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:39 PM
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The question I have is a simple one...

How much is a mans time worth?

Anyone feel like weighing in on that?
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:06 PM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptBill View Post
The question I have is a simple one...

How much is a mans time worth?

Anyone fell like weighing in on that?
Depends on what he has to give up when allocating time to the boat project.

For instance, if you are Carlos Slim Helu or Bill Gates, it would probably be more economical to hire a company to build your boat.

If you are unemployed, underemployed or otherwise have little to no earning power (but a huge saving or source of money), your time is (financially) worth very little and it makes the most sense for you to build your own.

In all cases, it's less expensive to find a sound hull on the used market, excepting the catamaran market.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:12 PM
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CaptBill CaptBill is offline
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I was wanting a number. Need a number to do any calculations.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:18 PM
Poida Poida is offline
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Yes Capt Bill, I'll have a go.

You put your own value on your time.

Some people go home from work and spend the rest of their evening in front of the TV. Their time is cheap.

I would hazard at a guess that most people on this forum who have an interest in boat building and renos would put a higher value on their time.

Par, when visitors call you say, "I was expecting you to call around today, EVERY THING ELSE HAS BEEN GOING WRONG!!!"

After a while, nobody calls and you can get on with your boat.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:33 PM
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How about $95 an hour?

Isn't that about the going rate on a 'time@material' basis?

Does that sound about right...ballpark?
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