Traditional boat definition

[charmc]

Very traditional. Advertising goes back to ancient times. A Greek vase in the Louvre from the 1st Century BC had an inscription which translated, "This is a bargain". Commercial and political advertising has been found on papyrus scrolls.

Go ahead, Guillermo, promote yourself, it's an ancient tradition!

[Poida]

Hi Guillermo, that was my creative way of talking, I was trying to be re-constructive not constructive.

What I was saying is that you appeared to have picked a subject that you stated on your first post that you didn't know the meaning of the title that you have chosen. Since then the meaning of the term traditional seems to be up to debate.

Traditionally when one gives a talk, the lecturer picks a subject that they are conversant with.

Unless of course you are conversant with the subject matter and asked for help to obtain more material.

In the film "10 Canoes" the Australian Aborigines removed bark from trees, the type I can't recall. Heated the bark over a fire to make it plyable and then formed it into a canoe.

When it cooled it became rigid.

The Australian Aborigines are well known for their dugout canoes and I was surprised to see this method of construction.

Poida

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Poida

Unless of course you are conversant with the subject matter and asked for help to obtain more material.

Thanks, Poida. That's exactly what I pretend, as the term 'tarditional' seems to mean different things to different people. Unluckily the lack of a precise definition and normative leads to a variety of problems with the authorities in many countries, when someone tries to build up and navigate such a boat. The intention of the Conference in Ferrol is to analize the problem and try to contribute to a better definition and understanding of it, giving clues and ideas for a homogeneous regulamentation not only in Spain but throughout Europe, in the line of (and collaboration with) what the European Maritime Heritage organization is doing.

Cheers.

[Guillermo]

In the wake of the Ferrol gathering two years ago, this year we will have another Traditional Boats Gathering, this time in the lovely fishing village of Muros on July 9-12. See:

http://www.mardemuros.com/index.html (galician language)

Some 150 boats will attend and all of you are invited to come end enjoy this big "fiesta". A pavillion has been ready for free sleeping and lunchs for the four days only cost 20 euros.

I'll be there, not as lecturer this time but as an avid learner at the technical session.

Cheers

[Ad Hoc]

was it successful last time?
Did you come to a consensus on "traditional"?

I doubt you will since many designs have evolved pertaining to the local conditions. Hence each "tradition" is different.

[peter radclyffe]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

On July 5th to 8th there will be a Traditional Boats Gathering in the port of Ferrol, a north Galician city (http://www.culturamaritima.org/ferrol2007/)
At the same time there will take place a technical conference on this type of boats (days 5 and 6 of July) and I'm invited as a lecturer there.

I'm writing a lecture on the "technical caracterization of traditional boats" and, to my surprise, I have not been able to find, nor in my books, nor in internet, a definition of what a "Traditional Boat" is. It's interesting: It seems everybody has clear in his/her mind what a traditional boat is, but...what's the precise definition? I've been thinking about it and I've come to the conclusion it's not so easy to give a clear and concise answer.

So I request help from these forum's kind members to help me to find out what a definition should be. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance to all contributors.

Cheers.

before ww2

[Guillermo]

Ad Hoc,
We have only a vague technical definition we need to improve. Still discussing these matters.

Thanks, Peter.

Cheers.

[Ad Hoc]

may i ask the reason for defining it, and making the definition so prescriptive?...it is being driven by legislation?

[Guillermo]

There are various reasons,
Firts is the keeping of heritage. We need to be able to as accurately as possible decide what is a traditional boat and what's not.

There's a second issue related to the necessary permissions to build a boat (so the technical documentation to be presentd to the authorities) and then how that boat is going to be used by the public (liability issues).

Cheers.

[Ad Hoc]

Well..as for "old", such as "tradition"..surely this is dictated by the local sea/weather conditions and local materials to build with, and then this 'drives' the type of vessel. But materials have changed, legislation has been slowly introduced, as have safety features, all these contribute to render a "traditional" boat no longer "traditional". Hence it would be next to impossible to follow exactly a traditional boat design/build, in this sense.
So surely this becomes more of a historical perspective?

This would surely then drive the second issue.

[Knut Sand]

Maybe I'm far astray here...?

Should a traditional boat always be considered linked to an ethnical group? In some areas there are at least two ethnical groups, both choose the boat that functions best for the local conditions; riverboats have evolved in many different areas of the world, but in my opinion the hull shape have very similar spec. So in some cases, the location, river, narrow channels, flowing water, makes it sensible with a long slender hull, also for reducing the "spin"... Forests are also normally available.

Other traditional boats, kajaks, balsa fleet, straw boats, built locally, by local materials... ( The first eskimo to take the "roll" must have been a special person, pretty close to Darwin award... Icy waters....).

Heritage boats; I feel that some of the following boats may come in under this group: War ships, or other boats, taken care of, due to the history they represent, either individually, or as an example. Record breaking boats, speed.... Change of design, hull, sail, engine, the first (or one of the first) decked boat. Following this line of thought the first hollowed out log should clearly be on that list. (can almost hear someone yell: "hey! you're destroying a perfect log! stop doing that!").

[Knut Sand]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

I tend to think we should consider traditional vessels the ones which:

- Are linked to an ethnic group.
-
-
- Wood as main construction material (Animal skins or bones can also be considered, of course)
-
-
- Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.

What I wanted to point out with my post above here, some traditional vessels forms, have evolved pretty similar in many places, hence the environment to operate the vessel in and the materials available have meant more for the direction of the development than the ethnic group using the vessel.

Mainly wood, but as stated; Other materials also; animal skins, bones, straw, balsa....

Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.... Just want to point out; not alway as manouvrable as one might wish....

[Ad Hoc]

"...Should a traditional boat always be considered linked to an ethnical group?.."

hence the posting of:

"...surely this is dictated by the local sea/weather conditions and local materials to build with, and then this 'drives' the type of vessel..."

Whatever 'ethnic' group you consider, their methods will always be considered "local".

[Pericles]

3500 years ago, a group of Celts seem to have decided to bury their boat for whatever reason and in 1992 it was discovered, preserved in mud and silt, during work to widen the A20 road in Dover, Kent. It was originally built using traditional methods with only very basic hand tools, then sewn together with tree roots and caulked with moss. Sounds like stitch and glue to me.

http://www.canterburytrust.co.uk/hilights/d_boat.htm

http://www.doverdc.co.uk/museum/bronze_age_boat.aspx

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/the-tim...e-age-boat.htm