Traditional boat definition

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

MMMmmmm! Charlie would you say the 'Cutty Sark' is/was a traditional clipper?

No. The Cutty Sark, and her ilk were NOT traditional craft - any more than an oiltanker can be classed as traditional. She was purely a commercial vessel designed and built for speed and trade, and a variation on others of her class, contemporary to her day, much as are the yachts designed for the Americas Cup etc. Or would you consider them to be 'traditional'.

There were no 'generations' behind her pedigree as with other 'localised' commericlal vessels such as fishing and trading vessels evolving over many centuries of 'local' experience.

[SeaSpark]

The problem defining traditional is frequently met by the organisers of classic boat races it would be interresting to look at the rules the various committees formulate. Could not find any rules on the internet but examples are the races in the Mediterranean circuit (where they invented the "in spirit of tradition" class), and the traditional boat races at the Azores islands.

Picture of dutch Skutsje's sailing, the organizers of this race discuss traditional or not year round.

[Guillermo]

I have found this:
The 'Heritage Boat Club' defines a heritage boat as "vessels constructed of wood regardless of age, and/or representative of traditional design." although they later say: "In other words, we're talking about wooden boats, primarily -- although older, traditional boats of some other materials also qualify under this definition of "heritage boats."

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

...The 'Heritage Boat Club' defines a heritage boat as "vessels constructed of wood regardless of age, and/or representative of traditional design.

It's a case of semantics really. Are we discussing 'traditional' boats - or 'heritage' boats. I don't believe they are one and the same. Much as the world of elderly vehicles is distinctly classified as: Veteran (up to 1918); Vintage (between 1918 and 1930); Post Vintage Thoroughbreds (a handful of marques - Rolls, Mercs,Buggatti and such) built despite mass-production; and Classics.

Traditional boats are not necessarily heritage boats. Heritage being something worthy of inheriting. But would you want to inherit a corracle ?

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Bergalia

..'traditional' boats - or 'heritage' boats. I don't believe they are one and the same....

I agree. They are not the same. I posted just to exemplify the lack of a precise definition reagrding this kind of matters.
To inherit a corracle may not be important to me, but I admit it can be for others. Don't you agree?
Cheers.

[Guillermo]

I've just received this kind message from Matt Murphy, editor of Wooden Boat magazine:

Dear Sr. Gefaell--
I think you are correct when you say it means different things to different people. Tradition evolves; some people consider certain fiberglass boats to be traditional now. In the world of wooden boats, however, we consider a traditional boat to, generally, be one that's built of solid planks on bent or sawn frames. Non-traditional methods would include plywood and cold molding.

Best--
Matt Murphy
Editor

[safewalrus]

Bergalia I'd consider a Folk Boat to be a Traditional boat! you obviously wouldn't! And a T2 (American WWII tanker) there again in the late 1800's was that new fangled boat the Zulu considered traditional? It might be now but then? Seems it's a case of how long is a bit of string!! Probably a good subject to stay away from if you had any sense! Luckily I'm renowned for not having any so I'll keep on arguing! Jusy for the craich!

As for yer coracle - if it had a walrus skin I'd love to inherit it (might have belonged to someone I knew)

[Guillermo]

I attach here a very interesting document.
A representative of the European Maritime Heritage, along with many other knowledgeable people (not me) will also give lectures in Ferrol. I'm going to learn a lot!

From: THE BARCELONA CHARTER. EUROPEAN CHARTER FOR THE CONSERVATION AND RESTORATION OF TRADITIONAL SHIPS IN OPERATION

"DEFINITIONS
ARTICLE 1. The concept of maritime heritage afloat embraces the single traditional ship in which is found the evidence of a particular civilisation or significant development as well as traditional sailing, seamanship and maritime workmanship. This applies both to larger ships and to more modest craft of the past, which have acquired cultural significance with the passing of time."

[safewalrus]

Guillermo I'm jealous - enjoy my friend enjoy! Max Like I was saying 'how long is a piece of string?'

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

...Max Like I was saying 'how long is a piece of string?'

Ahhhhhhhhh.....String.....Walrus you know how to arouse a man.......(has quiet orgasm). As you well remember string is 'my bag'. (Does anyone use that expression anymore I wonder.)

You make a good point about the Zulu. Personally I'd discount it as a 'traditional' vessel having evolved from the finer points of two earlier work boats, and as it's name implies only appeared post-Zulu-Wars (late 1800's). However I'm sure it will rank as such among others. I believe there is a restored Zulu in the maritime museum in Fife - but not sure how they classify her. (She arrived after I'd fled the shores).
My concept of a traditional craft is one which instantly identifies the country of origin...again I cite the Faroese. A marque which can't be mistaken for any other. But Walrus old chap - it's a mute point.
And I'll join you in again congratulating Guillermo - and the conference for choosing him as a speaker. (What a great excuse he has for house-hunting).

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Bergalia

And I'll join you in again congratulating Guillermo - and the conference for choosing him as a speaker. (What a great excuse he has for house-hunting).

Thanks, Max & Mike for your warm wishes.
I hope not to need a house there, nor an hotel, as I'm sailing to Ferrol with my own private home, the good old MARIE (weather permitting). An old friend of mine and my son Guillermo are accompanying, so I hope to enjoy a wonderful week sailing, watching traditional boats and learning a lot.
By the way: Conference will be held inside the water supply steam vessel HIDRIA II, where she used to have the water tanks, now a multi purpose saloon.

More photos from HIDRIA II at: http://www.modelismonaval.com/magazi...sentacion.html
(Navigate through left menu)

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Within the first line of Article 1 is a little gem of an idea.

"The concept of maritime heritage afloat embraces the single traditional ship in which is found the evidence of a particular civilisation".

Over the centuries there have been many "civilisations". I would prefer to use the term "Cultures". Egypt, Carthage, Rome and China to mention but a few. Then, there were the Nabateans For any group of peoples, their "single traditional ship" was of its time and there are precious few triremes, galleys and Scandinavian longships plying the waves, because change happens and traditions can be lost.

Scotland lost a long and very important tradition of building iron and steel ships, when the shipyards closed. A cultural icon of the Clyde could the the fleet of "Puffers". http://www.tradboat2.co.uk/sourcepag...rce%20page.htm

Puffers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_puffer developed from the Gabbert, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabbert, which could mean that old Gabbert skippers would have bewailed the passing of the old ways with the coming of these new fangled steam boats.

Then again, were I to develop and build many boats eminently suitable for a market place rather than a locality with its local sea conditions. could I be starting a tradition that in years to come, the future owners of those boats will talk in hushed tones, of the building methods http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...les#post147990 that ensured the physical survival of their craft, 150 years in the future.

We can be fairly certain that there were disputes between builders of dugouts about building method for hollowing out. One guy uses fire, another a stone adze and here comes that bloke with the foreign sounding name, lording it over everyone with his copper axe. "Whose he think he is, building a better boat in half the time without the traditional breaks for placating the gods. Mark my words. It'll all end in tears"

Of course, it never did and two boats for one was the first expression of early Advertising Man.

Traditional boats. All things to all men and all is for the best in this “best of all possible worlds".

Pericles

[safewalrus]

Nuffink wrong with the old log - as long as it's traditional -but does it not loose tradition once you start to hollow it? it does according to Bergalia!

[Pericles]

Ah!,

for a log to be traditional it must be the correct species. We know about balsa rafts, but the first log?

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Perry,
I agree Puffers and other vessels like those are called traditional boats nowadays, as a colin archer is called a traditional boat. But are they really? They were developed from pre-existant local boats, which we may say were the real traditional ones (?). Let's take the Puffers: As you say they were derived from the 'Gabberts' or 'Gabarts', sailing barges carrying coal and fish in inland navigations, specially along the river Clyde (Interesting: I can find nothing in internet about the Scottish Gabberts other than in Wikipedia.... Bergalia?)

The term 'Gabart' is similar to the spanish 'Gabarra' or the french 'Gabarre' which was one of those generic terms (like sloop/shallop/chalupa) that got used for various kinds of watercraft at different times and in different parts of Europe. In 1867, Smyth (who was given to resurrecting obsolete terms from old word lists) recognized three variants, thus:

GABARRE. Originally a river lighter; now French store-ship.
GABART, or GABBERT. A flat vessel with a long hatchway, used in canals and rivers.
GABERT. A Scotch lighter. (see GABART.)

The term 'Gabarra' is used nowadays in Spain for the english term 'Barge', including self-propulsed and non self-propulsed ones. 'Gabarra' is the generic term and if the vessel has its own propulsion system, then we call it 'gabarra autopropulsada'. The term 'barcaza' is another one for a small not self-propulsed 'gabarra'.

Coming back to topic: the problem is where we put the limits. That's why I tend to consider traditional boats only the wooden ones without engines (developed through centuries...etc). This is the difference between 'heritage' vessels and 'traditional' ones. From my point of view the concept of 'Heritage vessel' is wider than the concept of 'Traditional vessel', allowing to include all kind of vessels deserving to be saved after their service life because of their cultural interest.

So a 'Traditional boat' is always a 'Heritage boat', being the contrary not always true.

Cheers.