Stupid Question

[D'ARTOIS]

Not really; tiller comes from teilarium - teiller; obviously latin/german; helm comes from the nordic (scandinavian) countries: helme, halma, hjalm; according to webster's the helm is entire steering apparatus of a ship.

Gouvernail (F) is indeed the whole steering system - like helm - and barre is the tiller; still we don't have an answer for the (spokes).

[Bergalia]

Now see what happens McBoo, when you ask a stupid question....

[safewalrus]

So why is the mate in Scandhooligan (German too) ships known as the 'Steersman' - that'll start it all over again (actually I've got a good idea but........

[Bergalia]

[quote=safewalrus]So why is the mate in Scandhooligan (German too) ships known as the 'Steersman' QUOTE]

Something to do with sacred cows perhaps....

[safewalrus]

Could be? now I'm in a horn of a dilemma - and mentioning "horn" gives Bergalia lots of chances for illusionistic quips about his unusual anotomy!

[nero]

On the french flagged ketch that I crew on:

"prendre la barre" means take hold of the steering wheel/helm. In other words the person taking hold of the wheel is responsible for directioning the ship.

So barre is extended to mean helm ?

[safewalrus]

And I always thought 'prende la barre' meant "it was your round! get your backside up to the bar and buy!" Oh well you live and learn (prefer my version - unless it's my round! )

[Gilbert]

I somehow can't resist inserting a story here that my father told me. It is one of my all time favorites. I don't have a date to pin this on but it was in the latter days of the west coast lumber schooners, perhaps the late 1920's.

A fellow who went to school with my father shipped out on one of these schooners as an ABS. Heading south on the first night out of Aberdeen there was a very heavy sea running and this fellow was steering on a watch with the First Mate. After a long bout of great effort at the wheel he told the Mate, "You know, no matter how hard I try, I just can't keep this thing on course!" The Mate replied, "Oh, you don't need to worry about that. My license is good anywhere in the world."

[Vega]

In Portuguese, Helm is in the origin of the word "Leme", and the French "Barre" is Barra in Portuguese, having obviously the same origin. Leme (used at least since 1416), for us, is the rudder.we have almost the same word as the French "Gouvernail", "Governo" to us, meaning the same thing - The complete system for directing the boat. "Governo" means in English “government”, but I don't know if the word is also used meaning the complete system for steering a boat

The "Barra" is a part of the "Governo" of the boat, as well as the "Leme"
(helm).

"Barra" has many meanings in Portuguese, but in the essence means:
a piece of material, (originally wood, and later also metal) long, narrow and strong.

Barra is a Latin word ...and surprise… with a Celtic origin (Portuguese have many roots in their ancestry, one of them is Celtic. In the history of Iberia, they are called Celtiberos). I have read that in Gaelic, "Barr" means branch and in Breton, "Barri" means the same.

In Portuguese, when things are not going well, we (and the Brazilians) use to comment: "A barra está pesada", that means the "tiller is heavy", obviously referring to steering in heavy weather as not being a good thing, hence the heavy tiller. The funny thing is that people say that a lot (meaning things are not going well) but having no idea that the barra they are talking about is a "Barra do Leme", a boat's barra.

With time words change or alter meanings and sometimes the original meaning is completed subverted like the French word “Exquis”, Exquisite in English and Esquisito in Portuguese. Here, the Portuguese word, that once had the same meaning as in the other languages, today only means odd, strange…always with negative connotations.

[safewalrus]

Nice people the Portugees! Rough translation (Cornish seafaring) from Portugee to English. "leme barra" or "letme at the bar - I'll pay" As I said nice people the Portugee!

I need to get out more

[D'ARTOIS]

Safewalrus, sometimes I come to Falmouth, I will look you up and then it will "leme barra" ok?

[safewalrus]

hey d'Artois I can never turn a good offer down will look forward to it but I live nearer the Cornwall / English border nearest large seaport is Plymouth over the border, in England. Yes folks Torpoint (for those who know it - Bergalia?) is the unlucky place that I live in (between bouts in the nuthouse!)

[D'ARTOIS]

Well, last time I was in that area we had to bunker in Poole. You know, there is something like a big bunkerpontoon in the middle of the river, a bit upstream the Poole. The mate who had the watch put the ship on the sandbanks before the Poole estuary but managed to get her off before I waked up. Lucky him otherwise he would got the cat 'o nine tails!!!
After we bunkered, we got out again in the fog and the mate was quite nervous, specifically when I decided not to anchor but to proceed slowly to Fallmouth.

Must write a book, ....some day

[safewalrus]

D'Artois
Poole, lots of area but most of it bloody shallow! And full of yachts! Not a good place to bunker or work either! Twisting channel and all the other stuff, Only good thing is most of the bottom is sand and mud so a grounding isn't to bad! run down to Falmouth isn't to bad in fog, as long as your radar is working! Start Point is the only dodgy bit coming from the East, until you fetch up under Pendenis Castle! could still be "interesting tho'" with fishing boat movements! Lost a couple of friends with 'coaster strikes' that way

[Robjl]

Bet you never expected such a comprehensive answer.
Maritime language has such strange nuances, I remember the first time I asked my wife to take the helm she replied "where" then later while she was steering I asked her to "bring her up a bit" she of course glared at me and said "now I'm supposed to lift it out of the water"?.
Cheers.