St. Pierre Dory with junk sail rig

[Ian Booth]

I am interested in the idea of building a St Pierre Dory rigged with a junk sail. I have read from John Gardner's classic boats and dory books, and Hasler's book on junk sail design. Have also had a look at a remarkable book called Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze , can't recall the author just now but could find the name if anyone is interested - the author was a customs inspector on the Yangtze and made extensive notes and drawings on the design and uses of probably most of the sampan and junk designs in use, I think, early to mid twentieth century.
The St Pierre dory has a good record of seaworthiness and there are some examples of designs based on the traditional form available that I have sourced on the net. I like the idea of the junk rig because it can be controlled from one postition and can be reefed "instantly" when required and will still operate well when in disrepair. Which also means it can be made without lots of sail making experience and repaired easily.
The St Pierre is not designed with sail in mind. I am wondering about conversion of the design and would prefer to retain the shoal draft capability. John Gardener suggests that widening the hull might adapt the hull somewhat for sail.

[Poida]

Looking forward to the answers to this one. A dory as I understand has a flat bottom. I was under the understanding a sail boat with serious sails has to have a deep keel. Two completely different styles of boats.

[safewalrus]

Yeah, interesting! A st Pierre is only really a big Cape Anne, they can be sailed but I'd have thoght a 'swampscot' would be more to your liking? Not sure about widening the beam, maybe but I'd narrow the bottom and insert a large centerboard - or leeboards? Yeah, needs some experimentation but should be possible!

Now where is that 'Dory book' by John Gardiner (of course - who else)

[Tad]

Ian,

Jay Benford has done some reasonable boats of this type, but they are not St. Pierre hulls. They are much wider on the bottom, with much less flair. Also he has incorporated fin ballast keels to make them workable (and reasonably safe) sailing vessels.

Shoal draft will not be good with this hull form, especially with a generally heavy un-stayed Chinese lug rig.

Dory hull form + shoal draft + heavy junk rig = bad boat.

Tad

[Ian Booth]

Tad,
I live on the edge of a shallow harbour. I would not expect to sail in shoal draft conditions. I would have motor power as well. Also I believe the St Pierre would be small enough to pole, scull or row if necessary. I also like the beachable aspect of the flat bottomed dory. John Gardner's Dory book shows a photograph of a St Pierre under a gaff rigged sail which "reportedly" sailed well enough. I have reckoned that a junk rig could be designed that would have a similar centre of effort. And I believe many sampans sail with lee boards. I don't really understand their shape as yet but think they may be full in the belly and often built to handle loads. I also see the St Pierre as a hull form I can build relatively easily, according to my experience.

[Ian Booth]

Safewalrus,
I haven't seen a Swamscott dory built to 27 or 28 feet length. Have you? I would be interested to see that.

[ron17571]

Funny i was thinking about the St Pierre today and find your post,anyhow i was thinking about how well the flat bottom would work offshore,ive read the dory is ment to be a rowboat and as a motorboat it isnt as good,ive also read that as a sailboat it tends to lean and kind of dig in and sail at an angle really well.also that its better when loaded down.i was looking at the boat on the glen-l site.i actually was trying to figure out if the flat hull would work,every motorboat article ive read talks about having an v entry to soften the entry or the boat well pound.

[Ian Booth]

Hi ron17571
I read that the dory design started as an easy way to stack lots of small boats on the decks of the fast schooners that sailed from the European continent across the Atlantic to various cod fishing grounds. The dories were dropped over the side and could handle large quanities of cod. St. Pierre is a fishing town in Newfoundland that thrived when cod was still around. When gas engines became available the big dories were converted using slow reving high torque 6(?) horsepower motors with a universal joint in the shaft that allowed the propellor to be pulled up into a well as the boat was run ashore - onto wooden greaseways - the beaches were all narrow and stoney. The motor would not have pushed the bost any faster than two good men rowing perhaps. Interesting about the sailing on the angle thing.

[Ian Booth]

Hey safewalrus
Joshua Slocum built and sailed a junk rigged boat based on his knowledge of the CapeAnne dory!

[safewalrus]

Ian your right he did (sorry it took so long to reply access is somewhat limited to the net for me at the moment) worked pretty well too by all accounts. Must really get into this dory stuff, again before I shoots meself in the foot - me shoot meself in the foot there's a laff - as if!!! OFTEN often

As to the biggy swampscott - nows your chance! bet 'eed be a monster (schooner? junk schooner? POSSibilies?)

[Ian Booth]

Thanks for your reply Safewalrus
I was just thinking today about the idea of stretching the 27foot St Pierre hull to 30 ft, so making it longer and a bit fuller in the beam, without stretching it at all in the vertical plane. Thought of water bag ballast under the sole. Two bags, one full of fresh water, the other empty of water or air. The empty one is pumped with sea water, which pumps the fresh water for drinking etc. while maintaining the same ballast weight. Might need some kind of baffle in the bag to limit any sloshing around. Might not be heavy enough. The Swamscott - I'll have to go back to the books to try and work out why it might be better the the St.P. at that size. - ?

[safewalrus]

Ian, looking at the John Gardiner book (dory bible?) i see that the biggest swampscott in there comes in at 19 feet so its 2/3 what you want to go for round one up in evry wise and stick another mast on 'ee I reakons that would fit the bill, not sure about the Junk rig though? (semi deck her would make her even better) Like the 'master' I get a feeling that the St P might not be too hot as a sailer but the only way to try would be build one? bears some thought...

[Ian Booth]

Safewalrus,
Thanks, I guess you're right about how to find out - I plan to build a large(1/10th?) model first. Its all a wee way down the track yet though. Cheers.

[27ST.Pierredory]

Hi Ian thats exactly what im doing i have a 27 ft. St.pierre that im curently rebuilding if you would like to see her in her really ruff dress i can send pics of her to ya

Originally Posted by Ian Booth

I am interested in the idea of building a St Pierre Dory rigged with a junk sail. I have read from John Gardner's classic boats and dory books, and Hasler's book on junk sail design. Have also had a look at a remarkable book called Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze , can't recall the author just now but could find the name if anyone is interested - the author was a customs inspector on the Yangtze and made extensive notes and drawings on the design and uses of probably most of the sampan and junk designs in use, I think, early to mid twentieth century.
The St Pierre dory has a good record of seaworthiness and there are some examples of designs based on the traditional form available that I have sourced on the net. I like the idea of the junk rig because it can be controlled from one postition and can be reefed "instantly" when required and will still operate well when in disrepair. Which also means it can be made without lots of sail making experience and repaired easily.
The St Pierre is not designed with sail in mind. I am wondering about conversion of the design and would prefer to retain the shoal draft capability. John Gardener suggests that widening the hull might adapt the hull somewhat for sail.

[safewalrus]

Just one other thing Ian, I wouldn't go telling the French or the citizens of St Pierre et Miquillon that St. Pierre is part of Newfoundland (that's Canada - ex British colony despite what the French say) as opposed to St. Pierre what isn't - Frances only grip on the new world - North American version! (North not South or Central)