Skepticism, Skeptics & Debunkers

[Eric Sponberg]

Boston,

As a matter of fact, I had stage 3 colon cancer five years ago. By that time, I was 25 years on a vegetarian diet. But I am certain my diet did not singly cause the cancer. No one knows what causes such cancers, but various factors from our genes and our environment are probably contributing factors. Having cancer did not cause me to change my diet. I am still a vegetarian.

I had a friend and client who had been a meat eater all his life and he got cancer twice. The second time around he switched to a vegan diet. It did not help him, and he did not make it. My client had given me the info (Kushi Institute) which I passed onto my mother and sister-in-law. My mother was ill with ovarian cancer, from which she did not survive. She was a meat eater all her life, less so in her later years. My sister-in-law was ill with breast cancer, also on a meat diet, but she switched to the vegan diet--she's doing fine. She is a teacher, about 63 now, and a few years ago she took up Taekwando and has earned her black belt. Her school kids do NOT want to mess with her!

I had surgery to remove half my colon, so now I am in a select group of people who can call themselves semi-colons! I also went through 6 months of chemotherapy through the Mayo Clinic in nearby Jacksonville, participating in a study through the National Institute for Health in testing an extra drug, known to improve the cure rate of other cancers, in a trial against stage 3 colon cancers. My final and fifth year colonoscopy for the trial study comes up in March/April. From then on, if all goes well, I will be "cured." I'll be able to donate blood again a year from now.

Eric

"Where would I be without peanut butter and cheese?"

[Boston]

whoa
way to dig deeper B
I actually dont know jack about dietary theory
but my mother was a dietitian
and always said you can eat whatever you want as long as your active
it doesnt really mater till you start into a sedentary life style
at the time I was working my ass off in what was at the time my new contracting firm

I say eat drink and be merry
for tomorrow
the world is going to overheat and then frieze our sorry asses

ps
I eat mostly buffalo anyway
that and sea food

[Boston]

well Im glad your still with us
must have been a pain in the ass so to speak
Mr semicolon
Ild still recommend the book though
lots of usefull stuff in there
it lead me to just go with buffalo meat and sea food
back to my native diet

there is also a product called extera its a herbal imunostimulant
its been used very successfully against a wide variety of cancers
verry hard to get but stuff definitely works

[Pericles]

Cordain is a lean meat enthusiast, which puts him at odds with the reality of the past. Throughout the world, primitive peoples sought out and consumed fat from fish and shellfish, water fowl, sea mammals, land birds, insects, reptiles, rodents, bears, dogs, pigs, cattle, sheep, goats, game, eggs, nuts and milk products. (Abrams, Food & Evolution 1987)

Modern food pundits come up with as examples of the "Paleolithic Prescription." Jean Carper offers a Stone Age Salad of mixed greens, garbanzo beans, skinless chicken breast, walnuts and fresh herbs, mixed with a dressing made of orange juice, balsamic vinegar and canola oil.

Elizabeth Somer suggests wholewheat waffles with fat-free cream cheese, coleslaw with nonfat dressing, grilled halibut with spinach, grilled tofu and vegetables over rice, nonfat milk, canned apricots and mineral water, along with prawns and clams. Her Stone Age food pyramid includes plenty of plant foods, extra lean meat and fish, nonfat milk products, and honey and eggs in small amounts. I can just see Cro Magnon man, being happy with that.

The annual all-cause death rate of vegetarian men is slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (.93% vs .89%); the annual death rate of vegetarian women is significantly more than that of non-vegetarian women (.86% vs .54%) (Am J Clin Nutr 1982 36:873)

Argentina, with higher beef consumption, has lower rates of colon cancer than the US. Mormons have lower rates of colon cancer than vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists (Cancer Res 35:3513 1975)

During the period of rapid increase in heart disease (1920-1960), American consumption of animal fats declined but consumption of hydrogenated and industrially processed vegetable fats increased dramatically. (USDA-HNI)
The fatty acids found in artery clogs are mostly unsaturated (74%) of which 41% are polyunsaturated. (Lancet 1994 344:1195)

Low-fat diets are associated with increased rates of depression, psychological problems, fatigue, violence and suicide. (Lancet 3/21/92 v339)

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...americans.html

The problem with vegetables is that they will suffice for a while, but eventually the piper has to be paid and unless fat and meat are consumed, an earlier death is on the cards. However, each to his or her own. Those who leave the dance early, make room for those who wish to cavort 'til dawn.

Every day we make choices. Some choose better than others. Those who are still around are invited to my 100th birthday Birds, booze and don't tell the wife.

Perry

[Boston]

dam Perry
remind me to never get into a disagreement on dietary health with you
soooo
the girl ( a veg all the way ) is trying to warn me off cooking with olive oil
any thoughts on that
I know nothing about it and she does tend to have some pretty crazy ideas from time to time
says the more you heat olive oil the more carcinogens it has


I eats tons of seafood and only eat buffalo
allong with a bunch of rice seaweed vegetables
wont touch chicken or beef
I guess I eat duck from time to time and elk or venison
but never beef

[Jimbo1490]

Nothing wrong with a little (or a lot of) sushi now and then; you'll be satisfied and so will she

The good thing about your preference for elk and venison is you're getting your meat un-tainted by modern industrial farming, which is IMHO inhumane to the animals and unhealthy for us. BTW, Atkins was a big fan of eating everything totally organic, true free-range, even home grown/farmed or hunted when possible.

My neighbor leases 20 acres from me for his cattle herd. He runs his small ranch the very old fashioned way; no antibiotics or growth hormones whatsoever. You can really taste the difference in the meat. And his cattle are fat, dumb and happy, the way an animal ought to be rather than confined inhumanely (but very cheaply) to little stalls their whole tragic lives. I mean, I love eating meat but I'm not in favor of animal cruelty.

Jimbo

[Jimbo1490]

Originally Posted by Boston

in February of 2004 the city medical examiner’s report released information that Dr Atkins age 49 had suffered a heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension. ....

Here's the rest of that story:

"The document, first reported on by The Wall Street Journal, also lists Atkins weight as 258 pounds. However, an Atkins representative, Dr. Stuart Trager, today attacked the Journal for reporting that the physician was obese, contending that after Atkins lapsed into a coma and lay in the hospital for two weeks prior to his death, his 6' frame became severely bloated--by 60 pounds--due to liquid retention. Trager also criticized the dissemination of the document to the Journal by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, which Trager described as a "group of Vegan and animal rights extremists."

As I stated earlier, his detractors taunt him even in death. He died of head trauma, not degenerative disease. He was fit enough to shovel his own sidewalk at age 72, which is how he fell and died. The DISinformation that was posted earlier came from HANDWRITTEN notes in an (illegally) leaked official document. What a perfect scam! No one will take credit for the authorship of these handwritten notes, and nobody can view the originals except officials, who are bound to secrecy by state laws and their own sense of ethics.


He died of a head injury, nothing more.

Jimbo

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

Guillermo
Does your wife know that you say this sort of thing to men on internet forums?

Yes, she knows and doesn't care, but don't tell my mum, please!
(The finger in the soup thing is from an old joke around here, for 12 years old boys)

Cheers.

[Boston]

no one is taunting the dead Jim
and I will go check out the WSJ
I just thought the Atkins diet went out with Dionnetics or whatever that fad was called and remembered hearing he had died of a heart attack
which appears to be so
and whats with all the secrecy about his previous condition and why he collapsed

I checked several sites and they both said basically the same thing
he had a heart attack, collapsed, hit his head, went into a coma and died of organ failure, his weight was a question because although the coroners office list his weight at the time of death as 250 something
other records indicate a substantially lower weight
and in a world were no confirmation was forthcoming concerning his condition the one thing that his doctor did refute was his weight at the time of injury not the time of death
apparently the only thing they were willing to discuss was that the discrepancy was due to water retention

apparently people went to great lengths to conceal his manor of death
and
there was no autopsy as the family refused all requests
so its all up in the air
except that there was a history of heart attack
my mistake beginning at age 49
his last admitted cardiac arrest was in 02 when he issued a statement to the press
you are right he died at age 72 having collapsed from what the accidental release of medical records stated was a heart attack
the records were however official according to the physicians committee for responsible medicine
I just got the ages mixed up so no worries

I actually dont care what you down for dinner man
eat drink and be merry
for tomorrow we are screwed

B

[Boston]

my god Jim I think we finnaly agree on something

Nothing wrong with a little (or a lot of) sushi now and then; you'll be satisfied and so will she

The good thing about your preference for elk and venison is you're getting your meat un-tainted by modern industrial farming, which is IMHO inhumane to the animals and unhealthy for us. BTW, Atkins was a big fan of eating everything totally organic, true free-range, even home grown/farmed or hunted when possible.

My neighbor leases 20 acres from me for his cattle herd. He runs his small ranch the very old fashioned way; no antibiotics or growth hormones whatsoever. You can really taste the difference in the meat. And his cattle are fat, dumb and happy, the way an animal ought to be rather than confined inhumanely (but very cheaply) to little stalls their whole tragic lives. I mean, I love eating meat but I'm not in favor of animal cruelty.

Jimbo

ya I eat a lot of raw fish as well
wild caught salmon and tuna
although we are fast loosing tuna to iccat
so kiss that delicacy goodbye

the buffalo come from a ranch out were I used to live and are about the most pampered animals ever
they have a custom slaughtering truck come and do the dead which I have helped out on a few times when I was around
I eat both hole and polished rice, sushi and long grained
instead of soy sauce Ive started using brags amino acids
but I still keep a gallon of soy sauce around to marinade the buffalo in
Ive been meaning to try the liver and heart
not sure Im ready for dried out lungs yet
intestines are not going to be happening any time soon
the ducks I get from a small oriental market and they are free ranged on the markets farm
the elk and venison got shot for looking so yummy and Ill take em were I can find em
blam and its over one shot
everyone says Im a dam good shot
although truth be told I never shoot outside my kill range
so its not as much of a feet as it is a technique

thank f&%*$%g god we actually agreed on something Jim
I was beginning to think we would meet once more in hell

best B

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Boston

intestines are not going to be happening any time soon

Why not? They are delicious!

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callos

Mmmmmm!

[Pericles]

Guys,

Just read the entire Weston A. Price website, especially you, Boston. However, in order to inform the girl, here's the page.
http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

If you eat saturated fat, you are eating right, but confirm that for yourselves. read that website, not this one. Here you will find lunatics like me.

Sure, it'll take time, but remember, if you want a job done quickly and efficiently, give it to a busy man. No one I know is too busy, not to be able to learn how to extend their pleasures in life. They are still alive. The others are dead. Scepticism kills the ill informed, but saves the properly educated person. Trust me on that. Learn to like blubber. Cereals do not grow well in cold climates. http://iceagenow.com/

How long before we can stroll across the Atlantic again?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_theory

Good night brethren.

PS Guillermo is right, Boston. If you cannot be bothered to read and understand the posts we submit, then you are just a troll. Knowledge requires study. We are not here to teach you, but we might let you learn.

[Pericles]

I am most sceptical about this woman's honesty. Opinions welcome.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7759178.stm

Perry

[Jimbo1490]

Dr Atkins definitely IS being taunted in death because he raised his middle finger to the medical establishment. Contrary to what Boston posted, there was no secrecy on his part, he had nothing to hide. The fact that so many people still believe that he died of a heat attack, was obese at the time of his death, suffered from congestive heart failure and other lies, is proof that smear and propaganda campaigns really do work!

All this DIS information is based on notes scribbled into the margins of a leaked confidential medical document, which document was transmitted by facsimile, so the origin of the marks is untraceable; it cannot be determined if these marks actually appear on the original document as we cannot view that document. The persons transmitting the fax cold have easily added the marks themselves meaning the marks are 'apocryphal'. These persons are known to have a HATRED for Dr Atkins, so they certainly had motive to do so. No official or physician involved in the case will confirm that they made these marks. Interestingly, the gist of the marks does not appear on the document itself in type anywhere.


The full story of his health and death.:




How Did Atkins Die?
The Truth About Atkins' Death

By Laura Dolson, About.com

Updated: October 2, 2007

About.com Health's Disease and Condition content is reviewed by our Medical Review Board


Years after his death in 2003, the rumor that Dr. Robert Atkins "died of his own diet" persists. The falsehoods concerning his death are mainly propogated by the vegan group the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and related groups and individuals. However, even the mainstream media is not blameless. In March 2007, Newsweek magazine published an opinion piece by Dr. Dean Ornish which contained the same untruths, which were later retracted by the magazine.

Here are the facts as I have been able to ascertain them:

How long was Atkins on his diet?

Dr. Atkins was a cardiologist who first developed his diet in the early 70's, after becoming convinced that an excess of carbohydrate was having negative effects on his patients' health and weight. He published his first book, Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution in 1972, and stated that he followed his plan himself many times over the years. He was very public, appearing on television many times and having many photos taken. By all accounts he was healthy and fit for most of that time.

In 2000, Dr. Atkins developed cardiomyopathy, an incurable heart condition which has quite a few different causes. His was thought to be from a viral illness, and his physician stated at the time that there was no evidence that his diet contributed to the condition. His coronary arteries were reported to have been checked at that time and found to be free of blockages.

Cardiomyopathy makes it more likely that a person will have a cardiac arrest (heart stopping), which happened to him two years later. Again, the cardiac arrest was not thought to be diet related. His cardiologist stated that (other than the cardiomyopathy), Atkins had "an extraordinarily healthy cardiovascular system".

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/gi/dyn...iet/index.html

Was Atkins Overweight?

William Leith, an writer who interviewed him around the time of his cardiac arrest stated that "he looks to be just under 6 feet tall and around 200 lbs – not skinny, not thin, but definitely not fat." A report from Atkins Nutritionals states that he played tennis competitively and that his weight was frequently checked, and in the years before his death was below 195, and six feet tall. And a medical report at the time of his admission to the hospital, which was later made public by his widow, states that he was 195 lbs on admission to the hospital.

Atkins' Death

On April 8, 2003, at age 72, Dr. Atkins slipped on the ice while walking to work, hitting his head and causing bleeding around his brain. He lost consciousness on the way to the hospital, where he spent two weeks in intensive care. His body deteriorated rapidly and he suffered massive organ failure. During this time, his body apparently retained an enormous amount of fluid, and his weight at death was recorded at 258 pounds. His death certificate states that the cause of death was "blunt impact injury of head with epidural hematoma".

Following this, a Nebraska doctor known to be anti-Atkins, and associated with the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, requested Dr. Atkins' medical records, which should not have been released, but which mistakenly were sent. The Medical Examiner's report had a hand-written note that Atkins had a history of myocardial infarction (heart attack), congestive heart failure, and hypertension (written "h/o MI, CHF, HTN"). The above Committee made much of this and began the rumor that Atkins had "died of his own diet". The misconceptions remain to this day."


So no more ******** about Dr. Atkins, kapish?

Jimbo

[Boston]

PS Guillermo is right, Boston. If you cannot be bothered to read and understand the posts we submit, then you are just a troll. Knowledge requires study. We are not here to teach you, but we might let you learn

Perry you cant possibly expect me to read every post
as for researching each and every claim
please
not sure how much time you have to devote to this tripe but I have bigger fish to fry
for instance I just picked up a lovely labor suet and will now be having to spend time with a bunch of lawyers and the like
so if I happen to miss something or fail to respond to some question or another
I dont feel its reasonable to chalk it up to a lack of comprehensive nor a lack of concern but rather a limited time budget
this thread is the black hole of climate change skeptics
all demanding an answer
sorry
but its not my job to provide reason in an unreasonable world
cheers
B.

oh
Jim please
we had a moment of agreement
fleeting as it may have been
what say we revel in it for a moment if not a day
it was rare
it was kinda nice
I say we toast a moment in history and wallow in an all be it a fleeting episode before we dive back into disagreement
personally
I found it a relief in an otherwise contentious dialog
B

addendum
e gads you learn something everyday