Sealers Trapped in Ice-Pack

[Mychael]

Originally Posted by alan white

But some forms of cruelty to humans is okay? Humans are animals too. If they were alswys conscious of their choices, why would they kill for no reason?
A.

Punishment is not the same thing as cruelty, sure there can be a harsh punishment but it's supposed to fit the crime. If a person was found to have killed for no reason, ie mental condition, then they will be appropriatley cared for, incarcerated for life yes, but still provided with food, shelter and medical aid.
Cattle are killed in the most humane way possible, at least in Australia with a bolt through the brain, instant knockdown.

In the context of humans though, it's still life choices, a farmer getting gored by his bull, me crashing off my motorbike, idiot car drivers hitting trees, etc etc.
Life, even with all our wizz bang technology can still be fraught with peril without our adding to the risk by our own stupidity. **** happens, people die.

Mychael

[alan white]

Punishment is the same as cruelty. Exactly the same if it is meted out without concern for the betterment of the one pumished. Cruelty without reason (such as revenge is a reason for most punishment) is in the eyes of the beholder, since it isn't necessarily cruelty according to the seal hunter.
To wish him ill will based on something he doesn't understand is to wish he would suffer without betterment.

Alan

[longliner45]

the people you want to go after is not the seal hunters,,,,,,,its those who buy the finised product,,,,,,,and this is the same for cattle pork and beef,,we gotta eat ,,if you chose not to ,that is your choise,longliner

[fiberglass jack]

nothing wrong with a good feed of seal meat, and the fur makes for a good pair of winter boots, its a way of life in newfoundland, ever spend a winter there, its one of the coldest places in earth, there is very little work and the money they make on the seal hunt is what they live of for the rest of the year, those guys stuck on the ice are the kind of guys that are not scared of the water they will go out in any weather, its those guys that volunteer in the rescue of many a yachtsman stuck in the ocean, they have to hunt to put food on the table and pay the rent, so pay a little respect to them

[charmc]

Originally Posted by longliner45

the people you want to go after is not the seal hunters,,,,,,,its those who buy the finised product,,,,,,,and this is the same for cattle pork and beef,,we gotta eat ,,if you chose not to ,that is your choise,longliner

The seal hunters' negative image came with the photos and videos of them clubbing baby seals to death. The clubbing method was used, according to reports, because a bullet hole would lower the value of the fur. Not pretty, killing baby anythings looks terrible. Longliner and others make a good point, though. The demand for the product is what drives the market. These guys aren't wealthy corporate executives out to bag a trophy to "prove" (to themselves???) that they're manly. Calling them thugs because of the way they kill the seals is too general to be accurate: this practice probably attracts some thugs who enjoy the killing, but that does not make it accurate to say that all who engage in the practice are thugs. Many are just guys making a living in a way that is cold, uncomfortable, and dangerous. If they were able to make as much or more in a heated office, I suspect they'd rather do that.

Almost all baby animals, even crocs and alligators, are cute. We need to remember that seals, too, are predators. We don't think of fish as cute, so seals as predators doesn't bother us too much. If you've ever seen a leopard seal toy with an adorable baby penguin before slashing it to pieces, it will change your perception of seals. I suspect that baby leopard seals are cute, also. Like orcas, dolphins, and otters, all mammals we think of as cute, they are deadly predators who kill, in a ruthless and bloody way, to eat and survive. It's neither right nor wrong, it's the way nature works.

Man, of course, is a natural predator. As Alan said, we still kill animals for food, but our civilization works best when we specialize tasks, so most people aren't involved with the killing of animals. The most economical way is to raise and kill the animals in large concentrated facilities, then ship the resultant meat to markets. Covering the meat in pretty packaging or displaying finished cuts is meant simply to attract our attention and our purchase decisions, but the secondary effect is to shield us from seeing animals slaughtered and butchered. I don't see any problem with any of that, but it's hypocritical to pretend "we didn't know" those cute cows get killed and cut up with lots of blood to make steak. One thing we can do is insist on avoidance of unnecessarily cruel and unhealthy conditions. Many of the practices used are not only cruel, but they decrease the nutritional value of the meat and increase the risk of disease. Keeping animals crushed together and force feeding them with stuff containing artificial hormones to force rapid growth, stuff that has to be laced with antibiotics to prevent the spread of disease caused by the horrible living conditions, stuff which transfers antibiotic and hormonal residues to us and our children is all too commonplace. Is it really concern for the consumer or corporate greed at work here?

Killing baby seals for fur is very different from killing seals as a necessary food source. I blame the fur sellers and wearers, though. They, not the seal hunters, are the source of the problem.

[Mychael]

Originally Posted by alan white

Punishment is the same as cruelty. Exactly the same if it is meted out without concern for the betterment of the one pumished. Alan

Punishment is for doing something wrong, it would be nice if everyone was just "nice" to everyone else but they are not. Punisment is a neccessary limiter for unlawfull/ "bad" actions.
It is diametrically hard, sometimes impossible to seek the "betterment" of a person as well as provide punishment. Hopefully the threat of punishment might deter some people so that is betterment in a way.
There is often the issues being raised that these days that too much emphasis is placed on the "poor offender" rather then their victims.
We are seeing it time and again with unlicensed or drunk drivers, thet get suspended or meanial sentances and re-offend. If the next time they have re-offended it happend that they killed someone, try explaining to the grieving family that is was for the offenders "betterment" that they were allowed out to rehabilite themselves.
Stories can easily be found of repeat rapists and sex offenders, given minimal or even no hard sentance on the basis they get counselling and the very next week they have hurt another innocent person.
Child molesters get privacey to "re-bulid their lives" and families find out later they (the molester) have been placed in government housing one street away from primary School !!!.

Clubbing an animal to death is barbaric and cruel. At least shooting by a proffessional is quick and relatively painless.

Mychael

[alan white]

"Yep, I say if they want to indulge in their distastefull lifestyle, then if they are now suffering, wel it's just an "occupational hazard". Score one for mother nature."

Mychael

You see, that seems to me to be a cruel statement. Almost an enjoyment at the prospect of someone suffering, as if the suffering is meant for the enjoyment (or scorecard) of someone far away rather than to serve any remedial role.
That same person calls the method of killing barbaric and cruel, and yet it is not cruel and barbaric in the sense that the hunter is feeling the kind of hatred or blood-lust that would cause him to wish the seals to suffer ("Take THAT, you little bastard!!", as the club goes down).
Cruelty is either felt as such or it isn't cruelty. It could be ignorence, necessity, or something else, but cruelty is what is felt by someone. It isn't an act, but the feeling associated with the thought or act.
It is an emotion. The kind of emotion often disguised as justice, such as the smile on the face of someone who just heard Saddam Hussein was hung, or when a convicted and parolled sex deviant was found floating in the river a couple of weeks after moving into the wrong neighborhood.
To me, punishment is sometimes necessary but never an emotional issue. I can agree with your saying that locking people up is necessary. If the idea is that the unpleasantness of incarceration is effective in preventing the crime being done in the first place or later, then I agree with that. I definately agree with seperating people from the population at large if they are dangerous.
What I don't agree with is revenge, enjoyment of another's suffering, or even dismissal of another's suffering as unimportant, no matter what they've done.
And if you examine the reasons for most of the wars and hatred between groups, you'll see that the reason those wars never end is because of a weakness of people to indulge in emotions of revenge and cruelty.

Alan

[timgoz]

The sealers off Newfoundland use primarily rifles to dispatch the animals.

According to Fisheries Canada, only grown and independent seals are legally taken. It is illegal (since 1987) to kill Harp & Hooded Seal pups.

The club used has been deemed by a Canadian vetrinarians association to be as humane, or even more humane, than many methods employed by slaughter houses.

Check out the Fisheries Canada website. Sometimes we are offended because of a lack of more specific knowledge.

Thanks for all those showing true concern for our fellow watermen. Emphasize MEN.

"May God's hand lead their boats back home"

TGoz

[Mychael]

Originally Posted by alan white

"Yep, I say if they want to indulge in their distastefull lifestyle, then if they are now suffering, wel it's just an "occupational hazard". Score one for mother nature."

* I may chose to see the clubbing of seals as distastfull and I do, Getting trapped in the ice is an "occupational Hazard" as would be a miner caught in a tunnel collapse or a jockey falling from a horse and breaking his neck, nothing more nor less", Score for (whatever) is a turn of phase*


You see, that seems to me to be a cruel statement. Almost an enjoyment at the prospect of someone suffering, as if the suffering is meant for the enjoyment (or scorecard) of someone far away rather than to serve any remedial role.

* You are making that interpretation of my statement, that is your choice, I stated it was an occupational hazard and it is. * Now had I gone on to say that I hoped they all froze their balls off and starved to death you could say I was being cruel or revengfull ,but I did not make those remarks*


That same person calls the method of killing barbaric and cruel, and yet it is not cruel and barbaric in the sense that the hunter is feeling the kind of hatred or blood-lust that would cause him to wish the seals to suffer Cruelty is either felt as such or it isn't cruelty. It could be ignorence, necessity, or something else, but cruelty is what is felt by someone. It isn't an act, but the feeling associated with the thought or act.
It is an emotion.

* More a point of reference, a word used to indicate something, to the person or animal that the "emotion of crulety" was inflicted upon I feel preety sure they would tell you that it felt a lot like an action to them.*


To me, punishment is sometimes necessary but never an emotional issue. I can agree with your saying that locking people up is necessary. If the idea is that the unpleasantness of incarceration is effective in preventing the crime being done in the first place or later, then I agree with that. I definately agree with seperating people from the population at large if they are dangerous.

* That's why there are courts, supposedly to keep emotion out, however watch how a lawer will play on the emotions of a jury, and these days in Australia they are now speaking of "victim impact" which I think is a good thing. I consider it nieve to believe emotions can be totally discarded in proceedings. *


What I don't agree with is revenge, enjoyment of another's suffering, or even dismissal of another's suffering as unimportant, no matter what they've done.
Alan

* Regardless of whether some agree or not I'm sure parents of a child molested or families of someone killed by a careless or drunk driver would be very pleased to see the perpertator punished.*

Let me make a sweeping statement here (which will no doubt get someones goat) by saying that unless a person has served in the police forces or the front line medical (paramedic/ emergency ward nurse) then the general "man in the street" has a nieve perception of what people can really be like and how things are.

Mychael

[Geoh]

If you have ever done much commercial fishing and had a seal take one bite from a dozen king salmon and create a big rip in the net each time, somehow they aren't quite as cute anymore.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by KnottyBuoyz

Airboats are popular around here and on the Great Lakes.

RE: rescue craft

They tried hovercraft in the Detroit River (and lake St, Clair), but the crews had problems operating within their limts, often abusing the skirts on the ice. They then switched to airboats and mistreated those too, putting holes in the hull from the ice.

Them boys can be rough on their toys.

They use both hovercraft and airboats, a time and place for everything.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Originally Posted by kach22i

RE: rescue craft

They tried hovercraft in the Detroit River (and lake St, Clair), but the crews had problems operating within their limts, often abusing the skirts on the ice. They then switched to airboats and mistreated those too, putting holes in the hull from the ice.

Them boys can be rough on their toys.

They use both hovercraft and airboats, a time and place for everything.

I think they coined the term "destructive testing" based on the punishment the CG boys can dish out. The attached photo is of one model that was used back in the late 70's or early 80's. I don't know who the manufacturer was but it was a 4 seater and powered by a small block Ford 302 cu in v8. They were used primarily for lighthouse servicing on the great lakes. I think there were only two ever bought as they weren't very practical for the intended purpose but a neat lil' machine all the same.

[timgoz]

KnottyBouyz,

Heard any new info on the boats stuck in the pack?

TGoz

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by KnottyBuoyz

4 seater and powered by a small block Ford 302 cu in v8. .

That's a Canadian hovercraft, the government had a funding program and dozens of small companies popped up overnight. Canada was the world leader in light hovercraft design for a while because of that. When the funding ran out, all but a few closed their doors.

It's somewhere in here:
http://www.decastris.com/hcc/canada.htm

[alan white]

"Let me make a sweeping statement here (which will no doubt get someones goat) by saying that unless a person has served in the police forces or the front line medical (paramedic/ emergency ward nurse) then the general "man in the street" has a nieve perception of what people can really be like and how things are."

Mychael

Okay, Mychael. It's not my job to call you out. Let it go, and let's forget it.


Alan