Sci-Fi boats anyone?

[Sus]

Hi there,
kinda surprised to find a lively forum on this very specific topic, i shouldn't be, but there you have it. Goodie!

I'm a writer/artist and I have a project in mind involves innovative boat designs. I'll be producing concepts, layouts, drawings with no certain $ payoff - this kinda thing is just fun for me, anyhow I'm no sailor, comments and the like might help me stuff some realism into my stories. I guess the question is - assuming I'm welcome here - where can I set up shop?

[safewalrus]

Welcome to the forum Sus, with a brief like that here might be as good a place to start for the generics! After that anything specific can be directed to where best suits the topic! Just one warning - as you've no doubt seen it can be pretty hairy at times - so if it ain't feasable be prepared for some 'stick' but if it's possible we'll do all we can to help!

Remember as you said its about fun, so lets keep it that way and enjoy......... lookig forward to your first question (this has gotta be fun hasn't it?)

[Willallison]

As the illustrious Walrus has already eluded to - everyone is welcome here (well, except maybe for that grumpy old bugger who shall remain nameless ) and we always welcome way out ideas. There's a good chance you'll be ridiculed completey without remorse - but just as likely we'll then copy your thoughts and publish them as our own!!
So... where's your 1st hair-brained idea.....?

[Sus]

Ah, a friendly ..er pirate ... walrus, why hello thar!

thanks, i appreciate the reply. ok lets get started here then

i dont mind criticism but remember this is going to be speculative. That said, it isn't fantasy, if it was - i'd draw up anything that just looked cool and run with it. what satisfies me is the criteria, that it seems plausible and that I understand it well enough to justify my claims.

my first project I'm tentatively calling Proteus Built around 2065

Proteus is a military prototype, a small test platform for a variety of systems (no weapons systems though - its a transport), I put it at maybe 60 feet, much of which is crammed with systems, making the interior something like what you'd get on a 40 footer.

It will need to be capable of braving Drake Passage in the worst of conditions, to that end it can operate as a submersible and has an airlock. It's not a deep diver, but it can go deep enough under wave action to keep it safe, even so its materials are light enough that its not significantly heavier than a modern powerboat. It also has the capacity to hydroplane on retractable planes. It's powerplant, autopilot and durability are all interesting features. I'm not all that sure about powerplants, though I've done some research on the matter there seems to be several options the value of which I don't understand. I imagine it would not employ a propellor, but (dunno what you call it, where the water enters the body of the boat to be accelerated) jets.

I have considered including in this list a sailing feature but there are a couple problems. weight, control system, hull shape, how to compact the mast, etc.

Power systems include a large battery reserve and a few methods of generating electricity, solar probably, I think a wind generator is somewhat feasible, possible a wave action generator though none of these currently produce much energy these are emergency systems.

lol, now imagine the cockpit on that puppy! i imagine it would resemble an airplane.

Some of the issues that I'd like to work on.

- hull shape to suit surface and sub-surface, particularly the front, I'm thinking a box boat (if im right calling it that? where the front is a vertically standing wedge shape) could work since the front end doesn't lift its nose and since you can always hydroplane for speed.

- im not sure how deep you'd need to be able to run, Drake sounds pretty damn scary, maybe rate it at 100m?

- propulsion should be pretty special, anyone got any ideas? I'm thinking maybe purely electric depending on advances in batteries and power ratios. It ought to run clean and be reasonably cheap to operate and maintain. (maybe youre thinking my hypothetical military wouldn't care about such things but lets just say times change.)

ok maybe thats enough to get started, I'll look through my sketchbooks and see what I can scan in to show you my early designs. mind you, I don't do 3d work, nor do I have the equipment for it.

[Petros]

Excuse me, your project sounds interesting but I think you are going about this in the wrong way, that is if you want this vehicle to sound realistic and plausible. That far in the future you are almost taking about science fiction (consider the the type of aircraft, subsurface and surface vessels, and lack of space craft in use sixty years ago compared to today). That will make conventionalizing a future vessel that much more difficult.

I am an engineer and some years ago I worked for a defense contractor that was developing advanced military vehicles. What you need to do FIRST is define the mission you want this craft to do. It is impossible to make a vehicle of any type that does all things well, so you have to pick the operational limits for which you want to do and design around that certain type of mission. Compounding this of course is trying to determine what type of threats this future military might be facing (again consider who we had as a threat 30 years ago, 60 years ago, etc. as compared to today and you get an idea how difficult that alone might be). The military almost never purchases a "general use" vehicle, they are designed around a particular threat or mission. The military almost never buys special vassals that small except perhaps for "special ops". Most of the newer proposals also incorporate some kind of "stealth" capability (low radar signature). They will look something like the F-117A aircraft without wings and it floats.

The size, features, capabilities, armament, equipment, etc. will all be determined by the mission you need it to accomplish. My suggestion to you is figure out what a future enemy might look like/behave like, what kind of mission you need to do against this enemy and then define the operating parameters to fill that mission. This will make the task of designing the ship not only more focused, but also more realistic. Rather than throwing together a lot of neat ideas and then figure out what you would do with such a vessel. This way you will not end up with a "scizoid" design.

This by the way is not an uncommon problem with many inexperienced designers of not just boats, but homebuilt aircraft, RVs and many other similar projects.

Outline what it is you want this vessel to do: how long will it be deployed, what kind of information or materials will it gather, how hostile the operating environment, what kind of specialists will need to be on-board, etc. And then we can better design a vessel around the primary mission you want to perform.

[PsiPhi]

Sus - Hi and welcome, I've only been here a short while myself, but I'm sure you'll get a lot of good responses.
I'm partial to a little Sci Fi. Is this project for an artwork or a story - if the latter let me know when it's published, so much new stuff now is fantasy, I prefer the techie type stuff.

Anyhows, as I said my boating knowlege is limited but your reference ...

Originally Posted by Sus

I'm thinking a box boat (if im right calling it that? where the front is a vertically standing wedge shape)

... might be refering to a Sharpie [Google "Norwalk Island Sharpies"]

As to having sail ability, look at some of the attempts at using sold 'wing' sails, then devise a collapsable version you can retract into the boat that would be technically feasible.

It's gotta be a 'stealth' boat too.

One of my favourite quotes about writing Sci Fi I read in 'Fallen Angels' by Niven, Pournelle & Flynn - it goes "the secret of realism was to describe the thumb so well that the reader thinks he has seen the entire hand."
In other words, rather than describe everything about your boat, just describe the bits that you know are OK.

Good luck, and where can I see some of your artwork?

Here's the last boat I drew, I've re:titled it "Pre Epoxy: Boating before Bote-Cote"



Also, take a look at the Random Picture thread on this site, some really interesting boats there

[Sus]

Yay! I'm at the right place. This has been a pet project of mine for many years, now let's see if I can respond.

>>lack of space craft in use sixty years ago
yep, sci-fi i difficult 2065 doesn't seem that far of, but your right, already we're into some wierd possibilities. I'd love to hear more about your experience in the big leagues.

>>define the mission
Proteus is a test-platform for a long range patrol boat to be stationed in the southern ocean. It's small size is due to its prototype nature.

>>type of threats this future military might be facing
retrofitted modern vessels mostly, pirates... heh, now, I'm not gonna tell you the whole story, start with "Mad Max of the high seas" and we'll go from there ok?

yep, we can fit stealth in there too I think.

by long range patrol I mean very long with no substantial aid from any port but home. This is why I want a sail function. But still it needs to perform hard when asked to. I'm aware of the problems of hybridization, compromising away the whole point, I'm not advocating it. I'm saying this is what the planners want and this is what I'm after, a rugged multi-purpose long-range patrol boat that can respond to all sorts of eventualities including running out of fuel.

>>Norwalk Island Sharpies
even closer to home, and more vertical
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...e/999/way/desc

>>the secret of realism
yep I totally get that, nice one

>>>Random Picture thread
been on that 2 or 3 hours today, some very interesting stuff I see, kinda curious why the heavy focus on 3d techniques but Id guess thats what the industry is asking for these days..?

>>Pre Epoxy
good stuff, that all penwork or contrast adjusted pencil? thats a lot of pebbles!!

>>some of your artwork?
of course! XD --> http://suskasuina.deviantart.com/
though, I'm so all over the place in that gallery (hint: have a look at my scraps gallery) and there isnt any of my vehicle designs there.

[PsiPhi]

start with "Mad Max of the high seas" and we'll go from there ok?

OK, so, Mad Max v. Waterworld, cooool! - I'm gonna pre-order my copy now

So what you're looking for is a mobile, long-range, self sufficient, military base?
I can see this base being half pirate itself, just to keep itself provisioned.

As well as being 'stealth' coated for low radar reflection, the skin of the ship should have solar collector capabilities to refresh batteries.

I imagine it would not employ a propellor, but (dunno what you call it, where the water enters the body of the boat to be accelerated) jets.

Yep, they use jet engines in boats too (water jet that is). There is a thread here by Terry King [Coverage of F1 Grand Prix for BoatDesign.Net showing his photos of the F1 Boat Races.

that all penwork or contrast adjusted pencil? thats a lot of pebbles!!

Mapping (dip) pen, and India Ink - Brighton Beach really is that pebbley!

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Sus

...my first project I'm tentatively calling Proteus Built around 2065...Proteus is a military prototype, a small test platform for a variety of systems .

Welcome Sus...but sorry to be a 'party-pooper' (do they still use that expression ?)..but I rather think the name Proteus has already been adopted.

She's named the Proteus, a ‘wave adaptive modular vessel’ - WAM-V for short - and was developed by Ugo Conti of El Cerrito Marine Advanced Research Inc. And I think she's also been discussed on earlier threads.

[yipster]

i once sollicited as designer at one of the topfloors of that transam building
keep reality in mind Sus but keep it coming, more artwork also

[Sus]

Is there any reason 2 boats cant share the same name?

In Greek mythology, Proteus is an early sea-god, one of several deities whom Homer calls the "Old Man of the Sea"[1], whose name suggests the "first", as protogonos is the "primordial" or the "firstborn". He became the son of Poseidon in the Olympian theogony (Odyssey iv. 432), or of Nereus and Doris, or of Oceanus and a Naiad, and was made the herdsman of Poseidon's seals, the great bull seal at the center of the harem. He can foretell the future, but, in a mytheme familiar from several cultures, will change his shape to avoid having to; he will answer only to someone who is capable of capturing him. From this feature of Proteus comes the adjective protean, with the general meaning of "versatile", "mutable", "capable of assuming many forms": "Protean" has positive connotations of flexibility, versatility and adaptability.

-wikipedia

I saw pics of that proteus a few months ago ...looks hideous, but the principle design features don't insist that it look hideous.

There was another interesting innovator
http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/home.htm

It looks cool, sort of like a sailboat got in a train wreck and kept going, purported to give some good speed.

Then of course there's the wierdness that is Wing in ground effect vehicles
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php

I'd love to hear what you guys think about these in terms of drawbacks and advantages.

>>Mad Max v. Waterworld
lol, Waterworld was supposed to be Mad Max on the high seas, the first 15 minutes are fascinating but its a let-down. Let's adjust my description, we aren't fighting over fuel but the security of shipping lanes.

>>half pirate
well food isn't that big a deal, but energy shortages are and even in that case its not like you just can't get fuel, its just too expensive.

>>mobile, long-range, self sufficient, military base?
not 'base' so much, but able to launch boarding parties and defend itself against small arms. mobile infantry (SEAL) would be a better description.

[Petros]

pirates are a safe bet (smugglers too), they have been with us since the beginning of recorded history, and still with us now, and likely be with us in the future. I just read that the US military had recently thwarted several attepted acts of Piracy against a Korean freighter and a Singapore transport by sinking several pirate skiffs in Indonesia. Including boarding the Korean freighter to capture the pirates, free the crew and return the freighter to the crew's control.

I do not see ANY advantage to sail power in a military/patrol type of vessel. Sails have been completely eclipsed by powered vessels for almost a century because, other than sport and recreation, the weather is not a reliable means of transportation. The size and complexity of the rigging is as least (if not more) the cost crew, maintenance, and replacement cost of a reliable powered drive (which you would still have to have). Especially considering you also want to include a retraction mechanism. Sails do not even have a "stealth" benefit since the mast and rigging are bill board to a radar (especially a military one). And you want it submersible AND sail capable? This is what I mean by "scizoid" design. There is no practical benefit to sails on such a craft.

What you might include is a hybred drive and fuel system, with all electric final drive. Primary power would have super efficient solar collectors on the skin (all of the upper hull skin generates electricity?) and super efficient and compact electric storage batteries (all experimental of course). This would allow the ship to operate without refueling. You could also have heavy water extractors (duetrium or heavy water exists naturally in sea water, with a way to extract and store it efficiently while underway could power the ship even without the sun). It would be powered of course by a compact (and radiation free) fusion power plant. The cost and weight and bulk of sail rig would be more valuble to use on other more important equipment.

[kach22i]

I e-mailed the designer/builder of this submarine, told him it looked a little like some of my hovercraft designs. Talk of combining the two never went past a foolish one line joke.

Link:
http://www.submarineboat.com/

Combining several features into one machine is what makes it Sci-Fi, in real life this is just too hard to do (well/cheaply).

One thing you should look up if you are not already familiar with is Gerry Anderson, the creator of the Thunderbirds. Put aside the whole puppet thing and look at all the great ideas they developed into models.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Anderson

[safewalrus]

Solar ain't much good on a submarine, nor is wind power - try nuclear (apparantly that works!! No really it does! I can see four prime examples from my bedroom window!) The modern ones don't need to refuel! The two main problems are crew - comfort (even the most spartan need SOME comfort! even 'hot bunking' still needs some bunks!) and food / drink! Lot of storage space needed there! At 40 feet you ain't going to carry much of a crew are you? especially long range deep sea work (100 meters is DEEP!)

Also of course your weapon load? where you going to put all those bullets? or spears? or rockets or whatever, you can not rely on taking it from the opposition.

Lets face it a 40 footer ain't going to have much more than four to six in its crew for long range work! now day running (max three to four days) you'll get fifteen to twenty at a push (get a few killed off at the first engagement gives the rest more room)! But with odds like that there's gotta be a good reason to 'ship' doubt if a goverment vessel would supply it, now a pirate? But they just steal other peoples boats! Oh yes, don't worry to much about stealth at that size radar wouldn't see your sails - they absorb the radio waves! They do now so they will then (unless you are using metal 'sails' - now theres a thought!!!!!!!!

[Sus]

I tried. I think youre right about ditching the sail function
the foil i used is probably too elaborate too with the retractable wings, they dont look right on squat body of a sailboat and with the mast stowage in the way there isn't anyway to brace it properly.

next attempt a foil/sub... I'm thinking 70-80 feet now

>>pirates are a safe bet
yup, I read a book on it called Dangerous Waters, mostly we're talking about south china seas, but the principle is easy to extrapolate - there's just so much damn water out there.

>>hybred drive and fuel system, with all electric final drive
not exactly sure what you mean, but that sounds cool! i think you are saying, you seperate the power system from the propulsion, where the propulsion is all electric and can retreive energy from a number of sources..?

>>solar collectors on the skin
yes

>>efficient and compact electric storage batteries
yes

>>heavy water extractors / fusion power plant
hmm, I'm skeptical about fusion power - moreso about compact, safe, portable... I've kicked around ideas like thermal batteries and hydrogen fuel cells, etc... all sorts of interesting things, not seriously considered fusion though. I'm thinking a very advanced combustion system at the moment.

>>hovercraft/submarine
thunderbirds GO!

>>Combining several features
rotorwing aircraft anyone?

re: my attachment : allow me to be the first to say lol thats ridiculous...