On the reef.

[seadogs20]

A friend of mine has just got back from a delivery from HKG, over 200nm miles east of east timor ,and after going thru some difficult passages the generator and all nav gear went down. After several hrs of investigation (with no apparent cause) they decided to keep heading for oz and not to turn back to dilli. They also knew that just over 110nm that they would be near ashmore reef. After some calculations they arrived at the conclusion that they would be at ashmore reef (20nm off) at day break (approx 0600). Unfortunately they arrived at 0400 and ended up on the reef. Now when the power went, they were in Indo waters, they had timed it so they would be out and heading for friendly waters before darkwhich they were on track to do. After this very condensed story I am asking you guys these questions.

A: Should they have called up asking for help in these waters and wait for who know's to arrive?

B:Turned around and head back to Dilli.. 200nm away?

C: Acted as they did, keep heading into open friendly (known) waters?

Your informed comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Vega]

Making an estimated arrival to a reef area at 6.00 in the morning is a very stupid thing to do. Doing that without navigation instruments is plain madness.

[seadogs20]

He was meant to have been 20nm off to the west of it, not actually on it.

I know your M5 and I'm only C'swain so - take what I say with the grain of salt that my "relative" inexperience warrants.

I've done open sea crossings to the Abrolhos Islands quite a few times - with fellow M5's and M4's on pro lobster boats and also on my own, in my own tub.

I KNOW - that from my nav course and from the colour chart plotters I and other pro's use, that my manual skills in nav are pretty good IMHO.

For example - when doing that crossing on my own, I worked it all out manually, and entered a route into the Chart Plotter from my manual workings, and then followed the chart plotter & the compass / manual route all the way, cross checking each against each other.

It's not a straight line, theres all sorts of passages (Goss for eg) that require a fair degree of accuracy (even with my good local knowledge).

What I found was that - with the effects of set and drift, wind & sea etc - it's VERY easey to be anywhere other than where you should be/think you are.

I think, by compass, I aimed for the top of Beacon Island and ended up south of Goss passage!!! (probably 6 Nm off course after 52Nm) 6 knots of cross current for 3.5 hours, along with 20 knots of side wind, will do that to you!

Without the Chartplotter to back me up, I shudder to think how I would make such a trip in the dark, using only manual nav. I couldn't!

They should simply have turned back. I would have, simple as that. Prudence would dictate so.

I hope damage was minimal and the owners / insurers can be molified and the vessel wasn't too badly damaged.

I do believe I would have allowed a larger margin for error in attempting a manual crossing of that distance, to arrive perhaps 100 NM off the reef at night and wait up for daylight for a eyeball approach.

If it were the Abrolhos, thats what I'd do - and ditto for Ashmore.

Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear! Just thinking out loud if you like!

Cheers!

[jehardiman]

The correct answer is D....none of the above.

Without more info on vessel type and fuel/stores, everything is conjecture

I assume that they had at least a sextant and crono aboard (as is prudent, even though I always carry two handheld GPS's with me just for cases like this) before deciding to carry on. Then all it takes is prudent seamanship, which looks not to have been shown.

Otherwise....no nav gear...on a 12 hr/100nm ocean crossing with DR.... to pick up a reef island as a waypoint...? And then what? 500nm downwind to Darwin? or 400nm upwind to Broome? What was he thinking?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by trouty

I do believe I would have allowed a larger margin for error in attempting a manual crossing of that distance, to arrive perhaps 100 NM off the reef at night and wait up for daylight for a eyeball approach.
Cheers!

Or wait in deep water and then move at daylight to the reef.

[safewalrus]

To a certain extent all your precautions are right, but, remember they WERE in dodgy waters (cos of the people agin them)! We can all say they should have done this and they should have done that but seriously how can we state it acurately? we all know what WE would have done (should have done); but with a few nutters with loose triggers on their AK's which was the worse option - drown or be shot?

My own view was that they should/would need to take everything with a pinch of salt, slow down to arrive at the reef (expected position) later in the day, but as I said did they know what might be out there? they thought they did and in this case pressed on! With hindsight they shouldn't have, but it's an awkward call for anyone to have to make

[seadogs20]

I agree with you walrus (makes a change eh?, What he said to me was that "we should have been 20nm off to the west of reef ,with over 2hrs to travel".... His main concern with turning back in the dark with no nav gear, was the poss of pirates and lots more reefs to overcome...his thinking was to head towards Aus waters where he knew help could be given. Ashmore has lots of fishing boats and customs vessel's in the area. I agree with most of your comments thus far. What do you think he should have done given the circumstances.... They had enough fuel for Broome and stores to get them there.The other thing is that any calls in this area are usually not answered, and you don't know who is listening... Also because of electrical probs did not want to drop anchor and shut down engines in case no restart, would have been sitting ducks in unfriendly waters.

Two hours early and 20 Nm off course!

Lets look at this Pete,

110 Nm crossing...wanted to exit unfriendly waters in dark...and arrive friendly waters at daybreak..so - what - can we assume say 15nm / hr cruise speed (more likely 20 - right?).

So a 5 or 7 hour trip....where you arrive 2 hours early???.

So - in all reality - 2/5 (40%) or 2/7 ( 29%) early arrival..?/? Alarm bells should be ringing here Pete!

If his speed was 15 knots and he arrived that much early then you'd need a heck of a wind / current up your clacker to make that much ground that quick... same with 20 knots...

Basically someone did stuff up in a calculation IMHO... either maths was off or something else....vessels speed guesstimate?.

As stated - a cheapo $150 hand held Garmin gps and two AA batteries would have got them there safe enough, with a little knowledge and a chart.
I know I carry both, charts and a hand held garmin gps backup - just a habit I got into! (System redundancy - the key to survival...).

Being on the reef rather than 20 miles west of it...isn't as bad - in terms of a stuffup - as getting there 2 hours early (30 - 40% miscalculation - versus..20 Nm out after 110! (less than 20%)...if you see what I'm saying!

I know everything was out at the helm as far as electronics - so I guess a depth sounder wasn't available for early warning of rapidly changing depth.

You sure the man at the helm wasn't just asleep?...while everyone else was takin a kip? It does happen you know...

Whats the friend put it down too?...

He, more than anyone, might have a good idea after he gets a chance to work back thru the decisions etc that lead to the grounding.

Hey - tell him from me - not to sweat it! EVERY skipper puts a boat aground at SOME stage in their career - even the local Cray boys at the Abrolhos do it...they just don't admit to it or make a big song and dance about it...(or tell the authorities!).

Heck - I could relate last season a skipper (who shall remain nameless) - happened to have to jury rig a rudder to get his vessel back to Geraldton to get the rudder repaired after it

'let go when they came sideways off a slop'

According to the deckhand (who lived in the deckies cabin alongside the one my young feller was staying in)...the boat ran aground at 1.30 am in the morning after a trip back from the mainland...

Ya see the guys not a member of the co op - so can't get his crays carted on the carrier boat so he carts his own...from the islands to Gero & back every 2nd day...

So - he fishes from 5am till say 1pm...then drives 54 Nm to gero - unloads - refuels and drives back..arriving say 1.30 - sleeps till 4am and fishes again from 5am...

Course after 3 months straight without a day off - this routine gets pretty tiring..

So - he drives back from the mainland this occasion...on autopilot...and falls asleep at the wheel.

First thing anyone heard was the cruch as they hit West Wallabi island...

So it happens Pete - to the best of em cobber - its how some learn.

Same guy lost a deckhand year before over the side - and many other notable incidents - not many deckies (with any sense) will work for the guy..

His drinking habits don't help the situation much and when the shyte hits the fan he's pretty free and loose with his fists, against his deckhand!

Theres skippers out there Pete and theres skippers - lets just put it that way eh?

Cheers!

[seadogs20]

real nice bloke!!....not... they had two electronic chart systems ( a hand held gps which was stolen in sarong, with a mobile phone)but wouldnt you think that was enough (electronic charts)..they where conserving fuel by running at 8knts starting up the genny when they needed to , recharge batts and cool the fridges.Then the fit hit the shan....But I think, if I was in the same situation I would have done the same thing.There is no way I would have gone back...I wonder if they had of turned round, and ran aground,who would be saying they should of headed out to open water? I'm not judging anybody here, im just interested in finding out what others would have done.....

thanks

[seadogs20]

oops missed a bit........And why????

Back to the Math!

110 Nm / 8knots = 13.75 hours...so - to arrive 2 hours early...= 16 Nm - yet they were sposed to be 20 Nm off the reef - but were instead on it.

2/13.75 = 14.5 % out in time factor...

To be two hours ahead @ 8 knots...

110 Nm in 11.75 hours (2 hours ahead of the 13.75 it SHOULD have taken) is 10 knots not 8 Knots.... so without power, how was their speed estimated?..pitot speedo?..

Like I've said - set and drift could easily put you 20 Nm off course over 11.75 or 13.75 hours of travelling & 10 or 8 knots....but if you aren't even sure of your actual speed...then sailing into open waters with a compass...and chart is niot a great way to fly.

Why the horror at going back - I guess it was dark and the nav to get back was harder than the nav to have got to where they were..

I can understand, the decision to press on....howver - in the situation where you have only the seat of your pants to go by - you use discression being the better part of valour and employ the forward seeking sonars god gave you in the front of your forehead...and make your approach in daylight hours..

Theres no shame going slower or drifting for the night with a drogue..catching some sleep...

Sure - foods a problem without refrig etc, and Navs a b!tch wihout electronics....but a lets face it - folks sailed the oceans for a long time before these inventions..albeit with considerable losses of vessels and lives.

Bad decisons compound.

Theres no shame in stopping a boat to regroup your resources and re-focus your decision making.

I feel for him, probably going over & over it Pete - with any luck maybe we can all learn something from it.

Cheers!

[seadogs20]

Yes Trouty!! I hope we do......as i said I would have done the same thing in that situation....

That all of us would have chosen tyo go ahead - rather than turn back!

(in that scenario..I guess the question about turning back or not becomes superflous), so - what IS the questuion then?

The question then would be Pete, If you or I chose to likewise go ahead rather than turn back...

Would we both have hit the same reef - or maybe done something different than this skipper and arrived safe & sound?

What could / should / would we have done in his same situation (given that we have the benefit of hindsight he didn't have...and everyone can be a monday morning quarterback, it's a lot different actually in the front line in Saturday's game!).

20 Nm IS a pretty good margin for error, over that distance - you know most Nav tests require you allow 1 Nm clearance of any dangerous object...soo, what went wrong - could / did he underestimate a following current, steer the wrong compass course, get blown off course by stiff side winds / currents - what put him on the reef Pete, and should could he have allowed for it given the resources at his disposal?

Must be some other experienced navigators out there besides just you n me?

Anyone care to chime in?

Cheers!

[jehardiman]

My first inclination sounds like what he did. Stand off to the open SW (point off navigation) then run back east to pick up Ashmore. However, this time of year, the trades are westerlies. So by not having a LOP, he never knew his drift, even though he should have known that he was being set down onto the reef.
All he needed was a line of position. That means sextant, octant, quadrant, backstaff....what have you, chronometer, and an almanac. Just pick a star sufficently east, shoot a line of position every 2-3 hours and that will give you your easting. That's the old way. Worked for Drake....no, wait, he hit a reef out there too didn't he...