The Price of Ethanol

[charmc]

Truth from all sides (as so often happens in this forum ... could it be that the desire to mess about in boats is an indicator of a higher than average intelligence? ).

One of my favorite (not!) qualities of our politicians is their near universal venality and short-sightedness, which results in an instant desire to put their name on legislation which either gives away huge sums of money to industries which donate money to their favorite charity (themselves) or mandates the use of something which has caught the fancy of several well-organized voting blocs.

Ethanol and hydrogen have legitimate roles in the energy matrix, and will have probably larger roles as production methods and costs improve. The current idiotic spate of laws and regulations, however, has everything to do with lobbying and nothing to do with the most efficient methods of production and use.

Then again, if politicians were seeking solutions which are best for the entire country, they wouldn't be politicians.

[charmc]

Mychael, Bergalia,

Well, at least we septics don't have a monopoly on venal politicians (oops, sorry. That was redundant.).

[CDK]

When cars emerged at the beginning of the previous century, ethanol was the only fuel available. Soon a substitute was developed, not as good as ethanol, but much cheaper: gasoline. And now it seems that after a 100 years we're returning to the real thing.
Gasoline here in Europe costs between $7 and 9, depending on the country. I think that production costs for a gallon of tax free alcohol are 30% less, so the governments could promote it and even put some tax on it if they seriously want to promote a less polluting fuel.
But from words to action is too large a step for politicians.

[safewalrus]

Anybody heard of horses? nice friendly creatures that can pull a cart (fast enough for any normally person) their effulent is good for growing things - best manure you'll get (even better than wot comes out of politicians, just) and if all else fails you can eat the bloody thing! Can you do that with gasolene?

[Ike]

I once saw an article about NYC during the horse and carriage era and they gave a figure on what it cost to clean up the streets and dispose of the manure. It was astronomical even for the 21st century let alone the beginning of the 20th.

[safewalrus]

See ther you go Ike causing problems already, what's wrong with a little bit of poo (how many tonnes was that?)

[Mychael]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

Anybody heard of horses? ?

Horses, yeah, I remember them. Dangerous at both ends and uncomfortable in the middle. Come to think of it like a lot of women I've known ..lol

Mychael

[safewalrus]

Some bad experiences there then Mychael? met some of my wives then? most of the time a horse is more use - at least you know it ain't going to attempt to think!

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Ike

I once saw an article about NYC during the horse and carriage era and they gave a figure on what it cost to clean up the streets and dispose of the manure.

Let's inject a serious note here. Walrus is partially correct in his assertion of the value of horse manure as a fertiliser. I'm lucky - yes lucky in that I own a couple of horses, have contact with a local stables, and live next to a dairy farm. My choice and supply of 'manure' is virtually unlimited. (Someone is bound to say 'judging from his posts - that's obvious'...)
But take the above quote. Dare I suggest it was 'sponsored' by oil interests - backed by the chemical industries ?
Animal manure (carnivores excepted) causes virtually no damaging 'nitrate' run-off into the waterways - hence no 'bloom' to suffocate aquatic life - or poisonous slurry on riverbeds which eventually reaches the oceans. Instead it adds a natural moisture-retaining bulk to the soil - improving its fertility (unlike chemical fertilisers) producing crops free of heavy metal residues.
Manure is of course a readily 'renewable' product. Further, it is also a source which can easily be converted to a potential vehicle fuel - methane. (I have a colleague who runs his domestic vehicles and farm machinery on methane distilled from home-grown chicken ****. The 'waste' from this process is still a serviceable fertiliser. Of course he is constantly at loggerheads with the tax office which insists he pay excise on every litre produced - and in reply, insists they (the tax office) can get stuffed. The latest assault on his 'contribution' to the world's oil crisis is a pending law suit by one of the larger oil companies which claims he is using his vehicles with an 'unfair' advantage. As he makes no attempt to sell his bi-product it is difficult to see (unless with political interference) how this suit can succeed.
Back to the original quote. Surely, if the horse-drawn carraige/light-rail were reintroduced to towns and cities any worthy local authority would welcome the opportunity to make a profit from the resale of the spoil swept from its streets. (Horse/cow/chicken poo already fetches Au$2 per 4kilo sack).
It would also ease air pollution - and, to a certain extent the growing unemployment problem.
Personally I'd welcome the return of the horse-drawn vehicle.

[mydauphin]

Hey, horse powered boats - thats is an idea. But I need to build a bigger holding tank....

[safewalrus]

Originally Posted by Bergalia

and live next to a dairy farm. My choice and supply of 'manure' is virtually unlimited. (Someone is bound to say 'judging from his posts - that's obvious'...)

We don't need to you've said it already, of course we could be nice to you and agree with you!..........so as I'm kinda a nice guy "I agree with you Bergalia, how right you are, as usual!"

[Frosty]

I dont like horses, I rode one as a kid 2 or 3 times, it cost 7 shillings and sixpence per hour. The brakes did'nt work ant it steered terribly. You have to keep your heels down as you ride it, --I don't know why,--- John wayne doesnt do that ,--ive looked.

No clutch or gears and no handbrake,-- you have to tie it to something, and are very underpowered. The one I had was only 1 HP. As far as I know they never make them with more power.

[Landlubber]

Oh well that rules out the 100 footer for you mate, you would need 500 horses for that one, there would be no room for anyone else.

What did Noah do then for hp, he would have only had two of the little suckers.

Oh and Berg, don't admit on this site again that you have a love of horses, you may end up with a name like mine!

[Frosty]

As I understand it Noah had no propulsion or steering. I believe he was infact merely avoiding drowning and did not wish to travel anywhere in particular.

[safewalrus]

Apparantly his Navigator wasn't very good either! Ended up parked on a mountain FFS, must have gone to the same nav school as I did! But there again I never hit any mountains! Didn't do a lot of good to a few jetties, but hey they can be rebuilt!! (a lot of ports actually expect to be bounced a few times - how do expect them to be maintained, good stuff this insurance!)