PreKote From Pantheon CHemical; Anyone tried it yet?

[Jimbo1490]

Prekote is a metal surface treatment that replaces acid washing and alodine on aluminum, and also works on mag, Ti, steel and even composites and plastics.

The claim to fame is that it's non-toxic, biodegradable and actually works BETTER than alodine. Of course it's a bit pricey at over $50/gallon. I don't work for them and have not as of yet used the product. Just looking for some users who have tried it. Seriously, the low toxicity and ease of disposal is quite attractive and would likely offset the higher direct cost-IF the product works as advertised. We're going to give it a try for sure.

Jimbo

[safewalrus]

Sooooooooooo - your main aim is to get rid of it? why buy it in the first place? whatever it is!

[Jimbo1490]

Ya gots to do what ya gots to do

[safewalrus]

True, if the stuff does work (and had I heard of it) still I guess if it don't it's going will be no loss.........but that ain't really the idea is it?

[Jimbo1490]

Seems to work; DOD over here is adopting it. You guys MOD will probl'y also. A couple of airlines added it and it got a special letter of recognition from the EPA as a "non-toxic" alternative. It's considered so benign that several municipalities are allowing pouring it into municipal sewers The only real question we have is: DOES IT REALLY WORK

We operate as an 'illegal' paint shop simply because it's almost impossible to get permits if you are honest about your business ask for them in advance. Our strategy has been to adopt every 'Environmentally Friendly' technology that emerges. Indeed we have been 'early adopters' all along, having switched to EF stripper and electrostatic spray guns back in '93, high solids paint since 2003. So when we finally get 'caught', we will be in the best possible position to be forgiven our transgressions

We did this once before at a different location. When we finally got 'caught', instead of shutting us down they audited the shop and gave us a list of items to correct/improve and 180 days to accomplish them. The list was not extensive or costly to accomplish; we were already doing the hard stuff. So we gladly complied and then we became a permitted, legal shop from that point on until we lost the lease due to our building being condemned.

In fact that shop became the 'darling' of the local environmental regulators as it had a smaller 'footprint' than several other local shops that had permits but nevertheless did most everything 'old school' except where a change was mandated. We, OTOH were 'proactive' and made changes well in advance of mandates. As icing on the cake, we found we could make more money with the newest technologies as they virtually always reduce both waste and labor.


The last real unaddressed environmental hazard in our business is alodine (chromate conversion) and if we could drop that without going broke from re-works and warranty claims, believe me we would!

Jimbo

[safewalrus]

I think t's got to be worth a try, but as you say the only problem is 'does it work' - trouble is there is only one way to find out! use it! Now to find a volunteer.............

Proactive is always good if you can - power to you for trying buddy, a lot won't - too scared!! of what I'm not sure........... lifes no fun if you don't try

[Man Overboard]

I came across a discussion on another forum regarding PreKote, I’ll include it here for further reference.

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...read.php?p=559

[safewalrus]

Seems a complicated system even if it does work/ which apparantly it don't! And the flyboys use fesh water, in a marine environment with all that salt about it may be even less useful!

I guess if your boat flys don't use it, and if it does fly whats an airy plane driver doing on here (apart from the couple we know who are allowed 'cos they's more boat orientated . Wonder what their views are - presuming they actually paint their birds?)

[Jimbo1490]

Ok Guys,

I got my 5 gallon pail of Prekote from Aircraft Spruce last Thursday, and finally got a chance to give the stuff a try. IT WORKS!! IT REALLY WORKS!!! The thing is, it turns out it's not really a metal surface treatment in the classical sense, where some sort of caustic 'passivates' or performs some sort of 'ion replacement' function to stabilize the metal from oxidation. It just works as a SUPER adhesion promoter making your primer stick like mad to the metal.

But it can perform that function on many (any?) surfaces! We tried it on old cured Akzo epoxy primer, the dark green one that nothing will stick to once it's reached full cure. Perfect adhesion. Feather edges infinitely thin without peeling. Then we tried it on several years old cured Awl Grip. No sanding, just a prefunctory rub with gray Scotch Brite pad and prekote. Rinse, let dry and paint. Perfect adhesion again.

Do you guys see the possibilities!!?? Look at the number of threads on this forum that are about" My (paint, epoxy, gelcoat, glue) won't stick, what do I do?" This product can become one of the tools in you box to make this stick to that.

When we paint, we almost always stripe. There's always some kind of graphics. Who wants an all white boat/plane whatever. Looks like a beached whale, after all Trouble is we often spend about as much time getting stripes on as getting the base color on. One big reason is the time/labor it takes sanding down the nice new base paint to get the stripe paint to stick. What if sanding to promote adhesion was obsolete? How much quicker could we do graphics?

Paint/primer out of wet recoat time? No problem, just use Prekote!

I think the manufacturer is way underselling this product; they don't really realize the product's commercial potential just as an adhesion promoter, forgetting aluminum surface treatment altogether.

Oh yeah, it's REAL easy to use. If you can do acid wash and alodine, you'll have no trouble with it at all. It has very little odor. It does not burn your skin. It doesn't even burn your eyes, much. It's not low toxic; it NON-toxic.

I think I might just like this stuff

Jimbo

[Man Overboard]

It just works as a SUPER adhesion promoter making your primer stick like mad to the metal.

Isn't this ironic, since that is one of the primary purposes of the primer?

But it can perform that function on many (any?) surfaces!

Pantheon's product data sheet claims:

PreKote® can be used on a wide range of surfaces including aluminum, steel, magnesium, titanium, CRES, galvanized surfaces, composite and plastic surfaces.

In one of the articles I read, the product was being tested over old paint that had been sanded and feathered.

The following links may be helpful:

This pdf is authored by Pantheon, and gives a brief of Boeings approval including the method they use for prepping with PreKote:
http://www.pantheonchemical.com/docu...%20PreKote.pdf

Dissimilar Metals Corrosion Testing of non-chrome coating systems preformed by Boeing
http://acqp2.nasa.gov/projects/Nonch...nd%20Draft.pdf


A brief article about test on F-16’s at Hill Air Force Base
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/010302.html
When reading this article, be aware that F-16s have anodized skin panels which increases their corrosion resistance.

The following pdf discuses 4 products (of which one is Prekote ) and results of various test preformed by the military:
http://www.industrialanodizing.com/Documents/ncapii.pdf

Here are three excerpts from the previously mentioned pdf:

Of the four products tested, three were eliminated early through laboratory testing. The fourth candidate, PreKote, was tested extensively against the current process. PreKote performed better than chromate conversion coating in adhesion/flexibility tests and performed equally well in other testing. In addition, it was found that PreKote could eliminate the solvent wipe down as well as the acid brightener used in conventional paint preparation procedures. The use of PreKote also reduced the need to sand anodized surfaces before repainting, but the limitations are that the application process is labor intensive.

Hill AFB and the owning units have examined each of the test aircraft in 2002 and 2004. The results so far are very positive and no detrimental effects from the PreKote have been discovered. The half-and-half test aircraft prepared at Hill exhibited equal or better paint adhesion on the PreKote side when compared to the Alodine side.

The AFCPCO has completed a 24-month operational evaluation of PreKote on USAF aircraft. Results at the 24-month point of the QOT&E indicated paint adhesion performance is comparable between PreKote and Alodine 1200S chromated conversion coating. There was no evidence of decreased corrosion protection on the PreKote treated areas of the test aircraft, but corrosion performance cannot be fully evaluated until the coatings are stripped at the end of the testing.

Here is an important note:

Note that all test results to date, current SPO approvals, and the assessment of low risk, are contingent on the use of a qualified chromated primer. When PreKote is used,...

[Jimbo1490]

Tom,

Thanks for the info and links. Some I had seen but some were new to me. I had seen the one where the different products were compared. I think that one is linked to Pantheon's website. I disagree with the writer's assessment that the process is "labor intensive". I mean, compared to what??!! I've used acid/Alodine for 25 years or so and I can definitely say that Prekote is far less labor intensive than acid/Alodine.

In fact one of the papers linked from Pantheon showed one USAF(?) study that showed significant cost savings over Alodine, mostly from labor savings and a bit from reduced disposal costs. And they were using the product 'as directed'.

We have not used it 'as directed' and don't intend to. Pantheon tells you to use Prekote as the surface cleaner and follow up with an additional coat of Prekote to achieve the adhesion promoter properties. Trouble is, the stuff is about $40 a gallon by the pail. Now I can mix Tide Free liquid laundry detergent with tap water for pennies a gallon and it makes a wonderful surface cleaner. Once I can rinse to a water-break free surface, I apply the Prekote as directed, scrub, rinse again, dry and paint. Buried in the Prekote FAQ page is sanction from Pantheon that this is a perfectly acceptable way to use the product. I mean, which would you rather use: surface cleaner @ $40/gallon or surface cleaner @ 4 cents/gallon ? (pick the smaller one)

Jimbo

[Man Overboard]

Now I can mix Tide Free liquid laundry detergent with tap water for pennies a gallon and it makes a wonderful surface cleaner.

The window washers in my area use Dawn dish soap for their "secret window cleaning formula" I guess Dawn is noted for not leaving behind deposits, and dries streak free. Although laundry detergent would produce less suds. I,m not sure if that is good or bad.

[Jimbo1490]

Some of my employees have suggested that Dawn works well also. I have not tried it yet, but don't doubt that it does work since it seems to work for so many other tasks besides dishes.

I hear from people doing wildlife rescue that Dawn is the preferred cleaner for birds that have run afoul of 'tar balls' cast off from commercial ships. Cleans their feathers without killing them. Gotta love that

Jimbo

[Jimbo1490]

Used Prekote today on new cured gelcoat. I did not scuff or sand the gelcoat, which had a high gloss. I just used Prekote, lightly washing over the surface with a scuff pad, rinsed and dried. Sprayed epoxy primer, got PERFECT adhesion over glossy gelcoat. Probably spent 1/10 the time preparing the gelcoat for paint this way rather than traditional sanding.

Jimbo