Our Oceans are Under Attack

[mydauphin]

Get rid of the humans, they are the polluters... Genocide is the answer...reduce world population to 500 million. You will never see another plastic bottle again.

Really though you can't win. When I was a kid I remember paper bags. Everyone complain we where killing all the trees to make bags.
The US had 150 million, China was at 800 million. Today, 30 years later, we have 300 million, China 1.6 billion, we both doubled in spite of China's killing many along the way and draconian birth control methods.

Your worried about a few plastic bags. Worry about how, most of these people, mostly unskilled, are going to be fed. And with universal health care, welfare, cellphones, text messaging, and all the modern trappings they want.

And if you think government regulations will fix problem, realize they have never work in past, why should they now.

[fasteddy106]

Ummm, I was being sarcastic, Masalai.

[Jimbo1490]

Really though you can't win. When I was a kid I remember paper bags. Everyone complain we where killing all the trees to make bags.

Yeah I remember this too. And some still prattle on about how the 'paperless' banking or insurance industry or whatever is going to save X number of trees, then they cut to pictures of virgin old-growth forest, as if that is what is used for paper production (I guess they never heard of pulpwood?)

Watch the Penn & Teller: ********! on recycling and see what I'm talking about. Saying we're running out of trees because of paper use is like saying we're running out of carrots because we eat too many. Pulpwood is taken from managed forests; tree farms. They don't want big wood for pulpwood; pulpwood trees are usually no bigger than 9" in diameter and take 10-20 years to mature to harvest, so certainly not 'old growth'.

But the environmental movement has become like this: 90% ******** wrapped around 10% truth. And the BS is really only a distraction from a hidden agenda that has nothing to do with environmental causes or 'saving the planet' or any such thing.

That's why the double whammy of overfishing and estuarine habitat corruption/destruction gets almost no attention at all; the average person is not even aware that there is this big problem. If you asked them what is the world's #1 environmental problem, I bet we all know what they'd say!

The environmentalists are no longer in charge of their movement, but politicians are.

Jimbo

[Boston]

Ild have to agree with that last tid bit you pointed out Mark
the politicians have taken over and any reasonable solution is going to be mired in there self serving intentions

Eddy
I tended to be the guy doing the beating up rather than be the one taking **** although Ive had my teeth rearranged a few times


your assessment of the fishing issues is basically accurate, we either place serious moratoriums on what few fish are left or we sit back and await the inevitable. no fish.
not much argument there

In regards to plastic fixing responsibility is key to determining who will bear the brunt of the clean up costs and its not the public that should pay for the failures of industry. If you do not believe the manufacturer of the plastics are responsible when there product spills on route to delivery then maybe you are right and the transport company should be held responsible but I dont see why the public should subsidize the manufacturers. To call it class warfare, suggesting that the manufacturers of toxic waste be required to pay for there own clean up is ludicrous. Should the oil industry expect the public to pay for a tanker that spills its sludge. A refund on nurdles is unfortunately not possible as even one penny per would bankrupt the plastics industry, there being trillions produced each year; imagine upwards of 200,000,000 tons of plastic, how many nurdles ( each weighing no more than a few grams ) are involved. recycling is not a viable option as most plastics cannot be recycled, That solution might work at the consumer end but remember 5 out of 6 of the most prevalent pollutants in the environment are caused by the manufacturing of plastics. We need to reduce or eliminate plastics use and not just focus on the mythical recycling of plastics as once again most plastics are not recyclable.

The recycle label placed on most plastics is blatantly misleading, a food contact plastic with never, by law, be recycled into a food grade plastic again. PVC is completely non recyclable in any form and responsible for 1/3 of the chlorine produced worldwide, what little plastic is recycled bleeds binders into the system even faster than the original product. Basically there is no safe plastics.

in the US we recycle ~1% of all plastics
worldwide ~3%
and that is not likely to go up much as the process for manufacturing plastics not very economical

The only thing left to do is hold the manufacturers responsible for producing a product that hey knew was not recoverable nor recyclable and highly pollutive throughout its life cycle

no class warfare
no whining
just a simple clear effective solution
make the guys who produced the pollution
clean it up

Mark
that virgin old growth forest went up in flames for plywood not paper and when they began to run out of that they mulched baby trees for wafer board, nice touch eh. I worked on that one as well and round here the timber industry has been again and again found in violation of virtually every singe regulation they agreed to in order to harvest the areas they were granted by virtue of agreeing to those regulations.

in a way you are right Mark although your frustration at the environmental movement is somewhat misplaced

the environmental movement is screaming as loud as it can
its the politicians that have failed to provide the implementation and oversight of what few effective regulations there are let alone legislate meaningful change
its the politicians that try to take advantage of the environmental plight to facilitate greater control
and its the politicians who fail in every regard to act globally rather than locally and in there own interests rather than in the better interests of the people

another lovely little issue no one seems to want to address is the pollution from all those huge engines burning bunker fuel
I have no clue of the pollution nature of the various kinds of bunker fuel but Im sure someone has a grip on that and will chime in
what I do know about it is that basically one container ship running what amounts to the sludge from the gasoline refining process pounds out more co2 than something like 50,000 cars
gotta love that world economy eh folks

then there is the farm run off
lovely when you get say 100,000 pigs all stacked on top of one another
( the montford three tier method of pig farming, now thats one that will make you cringe at the site of bacon )
ends up our farming run off is killing the oceans as well
solution
end factory farming would be nice but then you bump into the little issue of feeding 6.7 billion people

[Boston]

The US Dept. Of Agriculture estimates that the average person in the United States eats .5 lbs of meat, 1.6 lbs of dairy products, .2 lbs of fats and oils, .8 lbs of fruits, .7 lbs. Of vegetables, .5 lbs of grains, and .4 lbs of sugars per day for a total of 4.7 lbs. of food per day.

anyone want to address the human waste of ~10.3 trillion lbs that mostly ends up in the oceans each year

or the farm waste
or the maybe just the paper industry waste
or that particularly obnoxious little issue of illegally dumping hazardous waist

what is the solution if its not regulation and enforcement
and if the regulations exist and its the enforcement that is lacking then why not step up the enforcement if its going to save our asses in the end

if you have a hundred people and one steps out of line its no big deal
if you have a billion people and ten million step out of line
its a problem
so if just one percent of people are not following the rules of engagement thats 67million people and thats a big problem

the solution is to enforce the regulations we already have and get cracking on a few new ones in order to ensure that my kids will eventually be able enjoy the oceans

another trick would be have single term limits on politicians
IE no career politicians

there are lots of good solutions but enacting them or enforcing them once enacted is the trick

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

Get rid of the humans, they are the polluters... Genocide is the answer...reduce world population to 500 million. You will never see another plastic bottle again.

Really though you can't win. When I was a kid I remember paper bags. Everyone complain we where killing all the trees to make bags.
The US had 150 million, China was at 800 million. Today, 30 years later, we have 300 million, China 1.6 billion, we both doubled in spite of China's killing many along the way and draconian birth control methods.

Your worried about a few plastic bags. Worry about how, most of these people, mostly unskilled, are going to be fed. And with universal health care, welfare, cellphones, text messaging, and all the modern trappings they want.

And if you think government regulations will fix problem, realize they have never work in past, why should they now.

Like I said.... Lets get real... No Real solution...


A few examples. I have lived in Miami, Florida almost my whole life.
When I was 10-12, about 30 years ago, I would go spearfishing. I would get snappers, grouper, lobster, stone crabs whatever I wanted. The water was crystal clear in Biscayne Bay and all had to do was snorkel to see the most wonderful amount of fish.

Today, we have all kinds of regulations that make fishing virtually impossible because there are no large fishes left to catch. There is illegal fishing that takes small fishes before they ever grow up. We import Snapper, Grouper and lobster, stone crabs from other places that are undersize but legal to import.
You can go snorkeling for an hour and see maybe one fish. I WOULD NOT EAT IT, IT IS DISEASED. You have to wear a wetsuit otherwise you get rashes on your skin.

But what caused Biscayne Bay to go from being a marine wonderland to stagnant pool. Simple the population is now 3 million, they dump the processed sewer outside bay but when tide comes in it brings the waste in. And worst of all they dammed up all the canals thus fresh water doesn't flow out into the estuaries to clean out the bay. They did that 20 years ago because with all the construction and new people the fresh water level was getting lower than salt water. So to prevent salt water intrusion they closed canals making everything stagnant. We are now talking about a desalination plant and injecting clean waste water into aquifer.

So the moral of the story is.... Humans think they can fix problems, they make it worse. Nature can and will fix itself. Humans come up with problems, nature with adjust. Ultimately, when "destroy" our ecosystem, our ecosystem will destroy us. I am worried about it, but the planet still has a few years left, and my kids can't appreciate nature anyway. They rather buy a new pair of shoes than go fishing in a beautiful place.

Soylent Green is coming...

Soylent Green is a 1973 dystopian science fiction movie depicting a future in which global warming and overpopulation lead to depleted resources, which in turn leads to widespread unemployment and poverty. Real fruit, vegetables, and meat are rare, commodities are expensive, and much of the population survives on processed food rations, including "soylent green" wafers.

[fasteddy106]

Let me try this again. I don't think S E Johnson should be responsible when little Janie throws her Zip Lock bag in the water, little Janies mommy should be. I don't think the plastics manufacturers sat down and said, "hey this will pollute the **** out of everything but what the hell we have stockholders to worry about" either. The market responded to demand for inexpensive, light weight and durable products. Should we go back to glass bottles for everything? Food safety and processing would be next to impossible without plastic here in the U.S. where most beef and poultry is processed by mega companies like IBP and Perdue. Hospitals would come to a screeching halt without the plastics used in todays diagnostic equipment. What would you propose making an automobile from, try to do so without some form of plastic. We are not controlling the end life of plastic because we are not trying to. Consumers created the demand for the product, bought the product, used the product and disposed of the product. They should be held responsible for its proper disposal.

[masalai]

But in your market driven consumer society, plastic bags and stuff were promoted as a sanitised way to cover and protect "fresh" and processed produce and other consumable stuff (instead of a more bio-degradable/reusable paper bag).... All because the plastics manufacture wanted to sell a product and their advertising agents showed them how to suck in the stupid.... - The rest of the world followed suit like sheep to the slaughter....

Initially, it was the manufacturers and packagers driving the market in the name of greater consumption, definitely not a surge of natural buyer demand (that came later as "convenience" was accepted as desirable) - - just effective marketing and a con of easily swayed consumers.... Who failed marketing 101? - recognise an opportunity and exploit it to the hilt - never let the truth intrude in an effective promotional campaign - sew disinformation to discredit any opposition, done often and still works.... Only the dumb buyer/consumer will never wake up.... Do you know some dumb consumers?

[mydauphin]

In theory yes, in practice how? Make plastics more degradable. Use more paper instead. Plastics can be recycled somewhat. I install PVC Sheet piles, they are made from hundred of milk bottles. But people just throwing out garbage is a problem.

[masalai]

Up the recycling rate from less than 1% to nearer 90% by making the recyclable products redeemable at recycling centres - 50cents or more a kg, - 50cents / glass jar with lid - prices that would make collecting and returning a viable business enterprise - paid for by "deposits" based on the weight of the packaging - if it is not recyclable, return to the store for disposal at their cost and the government to enforce re-use/recycling laws....

Paper can be compressed and used as firewood/fuel for domestic heating in slow combustion stoves, compost component, weed growth inhibitor in vegetable/flower gardens...

Vegetable peelings etc in compost, egg shells as a dressing on rose bushes, have a dozen hens for home egg supply, and to feed on the outer leaves of lettuce etc., as well as help control insect pests in your garden, grass clippings into your compost bin to be returned to the garden as a fertiliser mix and so on.... The list is almost endless and very beneficial....

The long-chain plastic molecule DOES NOT decompose of degrade into benign atoms (well it does but it is slower than most radio active materials)....

Meat and lots of other foodstuffs used to be placed on greaseproof paper then wrapped in old newspaper - carried in large paper bags... The paper was reused by being wet till like paper-mash, then compressed into briquettes and used as fire-wood or put through a composting process to return to the vegetable garden.... Is everyone brain dead? this process is just so easy and requires minimal effort.... Once implemented, is easy to keep going and the reward in enjoying fresh, ripe and chemical free food is well worth the effort....

[Boston]

Originally Posted by fasteddy106

Let me try this again. I don't think S E Johnson should be responsible when little Janie throws her Zip Lock bag in the water, little Janies mommy should be. I don't think the plastics manufacturers sat down and said, "hey this will pollute the **** out of everything but what the hell we have stockholders to worry about" either. The market responded to demand for inexpensive, light weight and durable products. Should we go back to glass bottles for everything? Food safety and processing would be next to impossible without plastic here in the U.S. where most beef and poultry is processed by mega companies like IBP and Perdue. Hospitals would come to a screeching halt without the plastics used in todays diagnostic equipment. What would you propose making an automobile from, try to do so without some form of plastic. We are not controlling the end life of plastic because we are not trying to. Consumers created the demand for the product, bought the product, used the product and disposed of the product. They should be held responsible for its proper disposal.

The general conclusion of every plastics study I read was that pollution from plastics was not controllable either in the manufacturing faze or in the post use faze as by far the large majority of plastics simply cannot be recycled but instead leach there binders gradually back out into the environment. The average content of binders to plastic molecules is about 40% which means that given a 240,000,000 ton production level this year we're looking at 94 million tons of seriously toxic crap that will dissolve at room temp into both liquid and atmosphere over the next decade or so, whether you recycle it or not. The manufactures may not have known at the time what they were doing but for the last say 30 years they were definitely aware and failed to address the issue. Remember 5 of the 6 top pollutants in the environment are directly associated with plastics production and there are a rare few places in the economy were the long term cost of glass would not easily make it a better choice over plastics

the embodied energy of plastic is about 131+ MJ/KG depends on the plastic
the embodied energy of glass is about 12
you figure it out

by the way embodied energy of aluminum is about 230+
basically if you fill a aluminum pop can half way with high octane gas
that's about the amount of energy it took to create that pop can

Mas has a point
but its not possible for the plastics industry to recycle most of what they would get handed at least not into its original form
and if not collected and chemically reduced to its constituent components its not stable and gradually no mater being recycled the leaching problem persists and you once again end up with 5 of the 6 most prevalent and toxic pollutants found in the environment being directly caused by plastics

the only reasonable solution is to ban plastics if they can not be made safe for the environment
what most people dont even realize is that if you think claiming plastic outweighs plankton was a stark example imagine it you could see on the molecular level
what you would see is that no mater were you are on the planet we are living in a snow storm of plastic molecules
I forget the density but its unbelievable
I will have to look that one up
cause your going to freak when you realize how much plastic you take in with each breath

Eddie you hit the nail on the head
its all about overpopulation
problem being
that even some miraculous reduction of population at this point wont make much difference
the damage is done and will take milennia to heal

the problems you describe in your area are prevalent in virtually every estuary and bay almost without exception
same holds true for salt marshes were 90% of all ocean life comes to bread
ok all except the purely pelagic or benthic species

Ild love to agree with you Mass but the problems of persistent pollutants in the environment is off the charts
if you look at samples from the arctic species you will find the highest concentrations of the most harmful pollutants
why
because plastic fragments act like a sponge and soak in up to a million times there surrounding concentration of various bio toxins
plastic is a known bio toxin accumulator
fish and birds of all size ingest this toxic soup and the toxins get concentrated as they go up the food chain
eventually by the time a polar bear dies its tissues are so contaminated it would qualify to be buried in an epa approved barrel if it were a product of the manufacturing sector

operating on a sustainable level is a great idea and one I intend on continuing to follow but even if 99% of us do that that leaves what 70 or so million people still pounding out toxins as fast as they can

its going to be really hard to save whats left
and we need to implement every possible solution
the refund on plastics would at least work but it should be a collection and proper disposal not an attempt to recycle as plastics recycling facilities are largely responsible for most of the Dioxin still produced and recycling plastic does nothing to prevent its leaching harmful components into the environment, nor does burying it or burning it at temperatures bellow x depends on the plastic.

anyone beginning to get a grip on the depth of the problem
cause its our generation that did it
we had the chance and still do
whats it going to be
sink or swim

cheers
B

[masalai]

Even the pelagic species are in severe decline, in the early 70's numerous schools of tuna could be seen around the Melanesian island countries - Now it is quite rare to spot a small school of juveniles....

[Boston]

you said that right
Blue fin Tuna are expected to be the next species to go commercially extinct
thats why the collapse of the west coast salmon fisheries off the coast of California Oregon and Washington was such a surprise, cause so few people saw it coming and everyone expected it to be Tuna that bit the dust next
some of the marine biologists saw it and some of the better informed fishermen saw it coming but for the most part it was a shocker
The warning for a long time now has been that adult Blue Fin are so rare that the fishery simply cant survive
its just a mater of how fast we catch out all the juveniles cause the adults are basically gone
there has been talk of a moratorium but ICCAT ( also known as the committee to catch all tuna ) the group that is supposed to be regulating the Tuna catch is about worthless and refuses to place a moratorium on there ever dwindling numbers

I didnt mean to imply that the pelagic or benthic species were not in serious decline just that they didnt breed in the salt marshes

cheers
B

[fasteddy106]

Mas, in the old days when the butcher was around the corner, and the beef was brought in live on rail cars, paper wrapping made sense, and was perhaps desirable. Here in the U.S. that is no longer possible, IBP, Tyson, etc. package the food in supermarket ready packages before it even leaves Iowa. The only thing left to do at the store level is open the box and put the price labels on. Perhaps your process can still work in the outback, but not here. I worked in grocery stores before the age of plastic cutting boards and counter tops and when glass milk bottles were prevalent, and the rest of the food in the store was either in tin cans, glass bottles, or cardboard boxes. The place either stunk from the smell of bacteria growth or from the bleach that was needed to clean everything. Wonder what the energy needs would be to regress to glass packaging and the related expense of storage and handling of items sold with deposits on the containers. Hmmm, only the wealthy would be able to afford the diversity of food that is now cheap and accessible even to those on food stamps. Myopia is not a just a medical condition, it can be just as serious a neurotic ailment among those who spout "noble" goals with little forethought about the consequences of their agenda.

Oh yeah, I want to see the riots among diabetics when they storm the pharmacies for the last plastic syringes before they run out and the cost of their injections skyrocket when glass syringes are re-introduced. How many square miles of forest will have to be knocked down so we can grow more rubber trees to make up for the loss of plastic. How many E.R. rooms will see any increase in traffic from cuts and gashes caused by glass packaging. The list of things just very wrong with banning plastic is endless. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid Boston, use your intellect you like to tell us about to come up with a plausible solution rather than expecting the human race to devolve to where it was at the turn of the century, oops, I mean of the century before.

[fasteddy106]

Now as far as overfishing goes. That one may be tougher. Here in the U.S. fish is usually seen as part of a balanced diet and preferable to red meat. However in much of the world fish is a daily staple, take it away and you no longer have to worry about overpopulation. But, I have a novel idea. Lets impose an annual tax of ten dollars a foot on all privately owned sailboats over 30ft. Hell, you cheapskates have been keeping all that extra cash you don't have to spend on petroleum fuels and taxes. We can use the money to buy an altenative diet for those who depend on fish. About time you blow boaters pulled your own weight. Now let's see who doesn't have a sense of humor.