Our Oceans are Under Attack

[fasteddy106]

What are we looking for to aleviate the plastic issue? It is obvious that tons of plastic in the ocean is a bad idea. I see fish management,(obvious contradiction?) as a real problem. Take Long Island Sound for example. While water quality has improved dramaticly over the last 2 decades, fish stocks become more and more depleted each year. This in spite of draconian catch limits for sport fisherman of every species. Yet we still see the drag nets every spring sweep up and kill everything in their path. Non-existent now in the sound are Cod, Haddock,Pollock, Sea Bass are disappearing, Wheatfish, bunker and herring populations are still falling. Winter Flounder and Fluke are decreasing also. Bluefish and Striper populations are holding but for how long. Even porgie numbers are down while they have increased size limits, and decreased catch limits for about 10 years now. The lobsters were killed off in the southern portion of the Sound by New York City when they used the wrong pesticide for the West Nile Virus scare and thousands of gallons were washed into the sound. Niantic Bay Scallops, gone when the eel grass disappeared. Doesn't appear to be a problem in the monkfish population but who cares. So I guess the question is, what do we do about the plastic,(minus idiotic,cap & trade tax style tax schemes) and how should we manage(?) the fish stocks.

[dobsong]

Originally Posted by masalai

Sadly I am fearful for all the global ecosystems, we (humanity) have failed miserably in our duties and responsibilities, - - being to care for this planet - - Our children and their children can rightfully be pissed off and saddened by our collective abuse of the environment - - All in the name of selfish "now" self-gratification and the consequences of these actions that we must wear... The burden is ours as murderers of the future... For which I am deeply sorry and ashamed, that I did not get angrier sooner and become more active in seeking ways and means to secure future sustainability....

Yep as soon as ws 'discover' a wonerful place we comercialise it vaa and stuff it! But hey most of us dont give a **** about what is left for our children!!!

[dobsong]

Originally Posted by masalai

By all impressions, I get a strange feeling that mark is some sort of dog with a cleft pallet (cannot bark properly?) but as a debate with something intelligent to contribute - even the language (swearing) is lacking?

So what do you want? Something about how the dogma of "market forces" and how this will "fix" everything! Or perhaps how our politicians are only interested in what is best for thheir countries... sad thing is that human nature ensures that we will **** our environment!!!!!

[masalai]

Sank to a level I should not, as the matter is not of no consequence....

Humanity is sufficiently stupid to facilitate our own demise, then with a lengthy recovery period the planet may recover... Recoverable oil is almost used up, the diversity of land and oceanic life is severely endangered, the atmosphere is polluted, there will be issues with accessing potable water, disposal of our waste, growing healthy natural foods, ensuring all will get a fair share of food...

Anger is not a response worthy of delivery, reconciliation and learning how to live simpler, caring and sustainable lives is the objective we should all be striving for....

[dobsong]

Originally Posted by masalai

Sank to a level I should not, as the matter is not of no consequence....

Humanity is sufficiently stupid to facilitate our own demise, then with a lengthy recovery period the planet may recover... Recoverable oil is almost used up, the diversity of land and oceanic life is severely endangered, the atmosphere is polluted, there will be issues with accessing potable water, disposal of our waste, growing healthy natural foods, ensuring all will get a fair share of food...

Anger is not a response worthy of delivery, reconciliation and learning how to live simpler, caring and sustainable lives is the objective we should all be striving for....

"a lengthy recovery period the planet may recover" Maybe all the recent rain has "flodded you brain...... or are you related to Bjelke-Petersen

[masalai]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ope...s-26910-8.html

Now, It is drivel. I'm done with this one, too. Meet ya at something to do with boatdesign.

[fasteddy106]

Waiting for constructive suggestions other than a zero growth agenda or mass human suicide.

[Boston]

Originally Posted by fasteddy106

What are we looking for to aleviate the plastic issue? It is obvious that tons of plastic in the ocean is a bad idea. I see fish management,(obvious contradiction?) as a real problem. Take Long Island Sound for example. While water quality has improved dramaticly over the last 2 decades, fish stocks become more and more depleted each year. This in spite of draconian catch limits for sport fisherman of every species. Yet we still see the drag nets every spring sweep up and kill everything in their path. Non-existent now in the sound are Cod, Haddock,Pollock, Sea Bass are disappearing, Wheatfish, bunker and herring populations are still falling. Winter Flounder and Fluke are decreasing also. Bluefish and Striper populations are holding but for how long. Even porgie numbers are down while they have increased size limits, and decreased catch limits for about 10 years now. The lobsters were killed off in the southern portion of the Sound by New York City when they used the wrong pesticide for the West Nile Virus scare and thousands of gallons were washed into the sound. Niantic Bay Scallops, gone when the eel grass disappeared. Doesn't appear to be a problem in the monkfish population but who cares. So I guess the question is, what do we do about the plastic,(minus idiotic,cap & trade tax style tax schemes) and how should we manage(?) the fish stocks.

its called a trophic cascade and its generally considered irreversible

concerning plastics
a short excerpt from a paper I wrote on plastics might shed some light on the magnitude of the problem

Environmental concerns over plastics


Plastic is made up of numerous petroleum based compounds, to produce 1 kg of Acrylic (PMMA, Polymethyl methacrylate) (23) 2 kg of petroleum is needed and up to 5 kg of toxic waist is generated (2,3). Plastic never breaks down but instead photo-degrades into some of the most hazardous petrochemical substances known to man (3,6,7,38). PMMA has an embodied energy of about 131.0MJ/kg with a density of 1180 kg/m3 (1,3,30). Although it is difficult to determine the exact production level of plastics per yr. 2007 estimates range from 100,000,000 to 205,000,000 tons (28,45) with an anual increase of 9.5% (45) 
100,000,000,000 plastic bags are used each year in the u.s. alone (10)
the U.S recovery (recycling) rate for all plastics in 2005 was 1% (3,5,8,10)
In 2007 World wide, less than 3% is recovered (3,5,8).
In an EPA ranking of the twenty chemicals whose production generates the most total hazardous waste, five of the top six are chemicals commonly used by the plastic industry. (10)
recycling one ton of plastic saves 1000 gallons of oil (10,32)



Plastic as it photo-degrades releases binders like Phthalates, Bisphenol A, Nonyphenols and PBDEs along with countless other known carcinogens and teratogens (3,16,21,25,32). Once the binders are released, plastic remains as a large molecule(3,17). Dioxins are created both during production and incineration (2,3,16,17,31,32,46) dioxins are the strongest carcinogen known to man (3,5,6.7,31,38), The number of harmful chemicals associated with the production of plastic are to numerous to mention in this comparison, however; just one a primary component of acrylics ( mainly polycarbonates ) is bisphenol A (BPA), a hormone disrupter, that releases into food and liquid at room temperature(3,16,17,21,), it is considered a teratogen along with thalidomide and is known to cause embryonic malformations (3.8.16). Phthalates have been shown to cause genital malformations

In 1999 Plastic waste had outweighed plankton in our oceans 6 to 1, by 2002 the number had risen to 10/1 (3,10,11,16,17). The north pacific gyre alone, has a density of 14.8 million visible pieces of floating plastic per square mile, over an area twice the size of texas (3,11). Thats 1.9 pieces of plastic such as, bottles, bottle caps, lighters, beach palls, plastic packaging or plastic aquariums for every square foot of ocean surface spanning an area of 537,202 square miles (3,11). This is only one of six mid ocean gyre systems polluted to this extent (39). These areas of floating plastic range in size from twice the size of Texas to the size of Africa (3,11).

Plastic appears to have a half life longer than most radioactive compounds (3) with its use being required by the epa as containment packaging for low grade nuclear waist disposal (33,43). Polyethylene has been approved for the long term disposal of liquid radioactive waist (3,40,41,42) ( of course they also approved glass, tar and concrete ). The long chain plastic molecule is so durable that its half life is still being researched.

Plastic virtually never breaks down in the environment beyond the molecular level (3,7,11). We are stuck with every piece of plastic ever created (11). Unless collected and incinerated there is no getting rid of it. Remanufacture is not effective in halting plastics from leaching contaminates into there surroundings.

There is little debate over the adverse effects of plastics to the marine environment (ref-all not one dissenting opinion as to plastics harmful effect on the marine ecosystem ), Various forms of marine life, eat so much plastic, mistaking plastic fragments for plankton that it has decimated our ocean communities (10,11,15,16,17,44). Filter feeders unable to distinguish between plastic molecules and plankton, ingest and include millions of tons of plastics into the food chain (3,7,10,11,16,17,32,44), leading to the contamination and eventual starvation of countless organisms (3,10,11,16,17,32,44). 


basically we would be better off to ban plastics completely and force the industry to go clean up after itself. not going to happen, but it's the only way to get out of the mess they made for us with there product. I would propose a plastics settlement similar to but far harsher than the tobacco settlement

mark
I can appreciate the incredibly hard work it is to be a fisherman and I understand the love of the sea that must be at the heart of it, but an understanding of the sea is a whole other mater and its that lack of understanding that seems to be whats leading you hold the views you seem to cling to

the oceans are dramatically over fished and that overfishing has no chance of stopping anytime soon
Alaska is one of the best managed fisheries in the world
although anything less than long term stability is not going to work
take the reduction in the sea lion population up there
everyone knows its food related
lets just hope its reversible
cause if those salmon farmers invade every return run route you guys are going to see a collapse in the salmon fisheries just like we did down on the west coast
or did it extend up to your area already
marine biologists could have told you that was going to happen to the salmon and did if I remember its just it got ignored
kinda your ignoring DR Jackson

basically the oceans ecosystem has been nearly completely disrupted and if we want to get it back we need to save whats left to seed areas that need it
not likely to occur but its what we need
a jellyfish fishery in the gulf would help a lot although not sure what can be done with a jellyfish
and an immediate ban on plastics going to glass instead would show immediate beneficial effects as well
actually enforcing the fishing regulations might be nice
and no
I haven't seen the sea Shepard flick
I dont watch much tv
sounds interesting though
Im all for an armed rebellion to protect what little we have left
specially when its in a marine sanctuary

[fasteddy106]

We are getting circular here. Restating the problem is not a constructive suggestion. Going after the plastics industry is like penalizing Colt firearms because the gun was used by a criminal. Thats not a solution either. The tobacco settlement was arrived at because of deliberate misleading by the manufacturers. The plastics industry can't be blamed for stupid, lazy, and irresponsible consumers who litter with abandon, or the failure of municipalities to control their storm sewers and landfills.

[Boston]

a huge percentage of the plastics in the ocean are pre industrial spill
nurdles basically
that get spilled from container ships or whatever long before it even gets to the factory to be molded into whatever
so ya it is actually the industry that both knows about and has not even remotely taken steps to elevate the problem

so just like the tobacco industry they know about the issue
and ignore it
makes them culpable if you ask me

overfishing can best be addressed in the short term by actually enforcing what regulations we have
which we are not in most places

Sea Shepard is at least going after the blatantly illegal fishing
the Japanese have agreed to half there Tuna quota in tacit admission of poaching
the list of fixes is endless
with a reduction if the overall catch limit being the key factor along with enforcement

consumers take what manufacturers offer
anyone remember the radium dial company

produced the first glow in the dark clock faces so you could see what time it was even in the dark

they sold millions of em
radioactive clocks that were so radioactive they glowed in the dark

its industry that is responsible for producing products in a responsible and environmentally sustainable way
its government that has failed to establish that as the norm
and its the legal system that will end up allocating responsibility
lets hope they do it soon
or we are screwed

cheers

[fasteddy106]

Aw hooey Boston. If the plastic was dumped from a ship, blame the manufacturer, sure that makes sense, not! You are really reaching on this one with a logic path that looks like a Chinese road map. Corporations are just easier to go after, and civil juries love to give their money away. Plus, you are again just restating the issue with no solutions other than some type of class warfare punishment that will just end up making lawyers wealthy. How about instead we put a 2 cents per bottle tax on all plastic bottles and use the money to finance a clean up and leave the lawyers in the ditch. Consumers are responsible for creating the litter, they should shoulder the cost of the clean up. There are probably thousands of unused trawlers out there not catching fish, and dozens of super tankers not transporting oil. If we can process fish at sea, we can process plastic trash at sea. We could probably coral several square miles at a time. I'm not going to go into logistic particulars, I would leave that to private industry to come up with an efficient and profitable way to do it. A profit motive works better than a guilty concience every time. Putting the onus on the manufacturers is like blaming a mugging victim for the criminal behavior of the mugger. As far as fish stocks go??? We either have to have a multi-year moratorium on commercial fishing, and subsidize the fishing fleets to stay home, enact draconian limits and let the market cut down on demand through huge price hikes, or shrug our shoulders and hope the problem cures itself. I don't even know if any of the above is even remotely feasible, but it is a lot more positive that just whining and casting blame and crying woe is me.


P.S. "a pre-industrial spill nurdle" -did you get beat up a lot in school?

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by fasteddy106

.. How about instead we put a 2 cents per bottle tax on all plastic bottles and use the money to finance a clean up and leave the lawyers in the ditch. Consumers are responsible for creating the litter, they should shoulder the cost of the clean up.

You have obivously never been in a third world nation?? Lets take for just one instance Indonesia, the world's 4th biggest population. You would be AMAZED at the plastic they just casually dump into the ocean. And they are one of the poorest populations on earth...you plan on taxing them

[fasteddy106]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

You have obivously never been in a third world nation?? Lets take for just one instance Indonesia, the world's 4th biggest population. You would be AMAZED at the plastic they just casually dump into the ocean. And they are one of the poorest populations on earth...you plan on taxing them

I simply assumed that the problem was our fault like the rest of the planets and that we would pay the cost for the stupidity of the world like we always do. Hey, are you competing with Boston for being an obnoxious elitist or did you guys learn to be insulting and smug at the same prep school.

[masalai]

It is your fault to the extent that you (amongst others - me included) did nothing, claiming to be the innocent parties (ignorance is not even a legal defence in some cases)....