Our Oceans are Under Attack

[Alik]

Originally Posted by mark775

"There are strict requirements on pollution (in Russia)". Get serious now.

I am serious. Have You ever tried to certify a boat there? We are talking about boats, at least on this site. Just a sample: they will not accept intergal fuel tank even for diesel, on small craft. FYI, intergral tanks for diesel are accepted in Europe/America. So it is strange to hear from someone that there are 'no regulations'

[Boston]

why did I have this nagging suspicion I would be hearing a dissenting opinion from you mark

Im not that hip on the issues of Soviet pollution policies nor of Russian politics or business practices so I cant really speak to that issue
I can definitely however speak to the issue of marine ecology and conservation

I must say that the beautiful picture you provided although certainly having an aesthetic appeal in no way represents any form of scientific survey of plastics pollution in the arctic

unless you have some series of articles you would like to share with us I think the preponderance of evidence is clearly in favor of there being a significant problem with plastics polluting our oceans

Want to really do something about a perceived lack of plankton?

I dont recall mentioning a lack of plankton
what was specifically mentioned was the abundance of plastics and plastics fragments and using the presumed abundance of plankton as a reference point to make people aware of how much plastic is really out there

With an estimated 20 tons per day diet per whale

estimated by who, the society to rid the world of whales
please
the number is more like 500~700 lbs a day for an adult Grey and that only in the feeding season

Like all the rest of the baleen whales, gray whales only eat part of the year. Gray whales eat when they're in the polar seas. An adult eats about 660 lb of food a day ( depends ) or 340,000 pounds during their 4 month feeding period. after that they dont spend much time eating they instead swim about 10,000 miles and pop out a calf
most of the calfs die on the return trip. mostly by Killer whales who run em till there exhausted and eat there tongues leaving the rest for the sharks


who is making the sensationalist claims again cause I remember the wild claims finger being pointed in some pretty funny directions by some folks clearly guilty of making wild claims

personally Ild be dam thrilled to have seen a Blue whale and sincerely hope to eventually
its a rare privileged and all you can think is of blowing the bloody brains out of what might just be the last of the largest animal to ever have existed when in fact its overfishing that is decimating the ocean communities
pardon me while I puke

for those who do not know the incredible grace of a Blue Whale



its that kind of selfish thinking that will demolish the fisheries and leave the oceans a wasteland
once the excuse of whales ate em all doesnt work any more who will you blame it on next
the sea lions
oh wait they are fast on the way to extinction as well but there numbers are only about 85% reduced due to overfishing of there food source to so I guess we're not going to worry about them to much yet

I wonder if it could be the ~100 million tons of fish that gets taken from the oceans every year
oh thats not including pirate fishing estimated to add about 30% and my personal favorite
that 30% of the catch is ground up and fed to farmed animals and another completely unknown number is dumped back into the sea a bycatch
in the case of shrimp in some areas the bycatch outweighs the catch by about 5/1

cmon people lets get real on this one
the oceans are in deep trouble and those big beautiful Whales are not the cause of it

[bntii]

Good morning Boston

Good on ya- I see you have some background on this issue and give a damn about it as well.

My course work is a bit dated but I can throw in a couple of items.

One of the things I remember is that the world has a dietary stake of some 15% of our protein needs being met in the worlds fisheries. At the time one of the ideals presented in my ecology courses was the threat of long term accumulation of pollution in the oceans. The ideal was that as pollutants were added the ocean deep ocean circulation would mask levels and permit critical numbers to be reached before action was taken to curb the outflows. I never remember the specter of plastics pollution being mentioned and I suppose this is just another example of how following general principles of wise stewardship might have yielded results- those foreseen and not.

Unfortunately the unarguably sound principles of the environmental movement fell prey to the slander produced by industry.
"treehuggers" where have I heard that before.... LOL.

This is our second thread on this issue of plastics- I posted an Ideal in the first which I will post again. As a student of ecology and a naturalist I always had something of a smug retort to laypersons repulsion to 'garbage' thrown into the environment. It looks bad I agree but ecology is full of opportunists. Every surface, structure, niche is filled by colonizers and becomes a micro-habitat. A heap of discarded cans and bottles is a handy artificial reef. Floating trash is teaming with life when found in mid ocean. One of the soundest principles of ecology states that habitat destruction is the most direct threat to animal populations. The companion ideal is that by augmenting habitat in specific local ways we can promote growth.

I understand the threat posed to the environment by the degraded product of plastics- the micro particles, and will defer to your knowledge on this issue.

Funny- just yesterday I was cutting foam for our refrigeration out on the mooring. Filled the boat with little bits of plastic dust from the saw. This thread reminded me to police the whole mess up and not leave the bilge pumps to dump the stuff over. I am bringing out a vac today to clean it up.

I believe all students of the issue need to recognize that the resilience of ecological systems does not grant us a free hand in our relationship to the environment. Even relatively robust systems are easy to alter. The consequence of change has unerringly been destructive to our needs being met by the natural systems.

[Boston]

I think the focus of this one is more on the general state of the oceans and not just plastic
its just that a challenge to the obvious came up and needed to be nipped in the but
it seems its far easier for people to just get angry at the suggestion of an issue demanding change than it is to rationally address the issue itself

whats interesting is that for the most part its the same attitude out west as on the coast except with a different ecosystem

the ranchers who live out in the country definitely wouldn't be here if they didn't appreciate it, but its there ignorance of the health of the ecosystems components thats going to finish farming in the west. There is a great book called "The Mad Cowboy" which touches on the issues surfaces well but fails to branch out beyond chemical intensive farming practices if your interested

on the coast guys would not be fishing if they didnt love and enjoy being out on the water but if you take the fishing industry off the east coast as an example they have stripped the ocean of just about everything and the only thing that seems to be hanging on is crab and lobster and that because there major predators have been fished out of existence. Eventually the excess population of certain species and the lack of others can only result in the collapsed ecology's observed in so many other areas of the oceans

[bntii]

Thanks Boston- I will look up the book.

[Jimbo1490]

Originally Posted by Boston

on the coast guys would not be fishing if they didnt love and enjoy being out on the water but if you take the fishing industry off the east coast as an example they have stripped the ocean of just about everything and the only thing that seems to be hanging on is crab and lobster and that because there major predators have been fished out of existence. Eventually the excess population of certain species and the lack of others can only result in the collapsed ecology's observed in so many other areas of the oceans

You mean like this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5573968

Jimbo

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Boston

I think the focus of this one is more on the general state of the oceans and not just plastic

You are correct Boston, as I had started a separate subject thread on Plastics in our ocean world some time ago. But it got sort of hi-jacked with a lot of drivel.

I've not said anything about the plastics discussions coming up here again, as most of the contributors have presented viable info to the subject thread rather than drivel.

So no problem with associated materials to the discussions, just PLEASE no drivel.

(interesting videos there Boston)

[Boston]

Originally Posted by Jimbo1490

You mean like this:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5573968

Jimbo

EXACTLY
I dont think the state of the oceans can or should be blamed on fishermen
in general they are not out randomly destroying Blue Whales or shooting Sea Lions indiscriminately. Its the regulatory commisions or the lack thereof and the scientific comunity that have both failed to sound the alarm soon enough and failed to enact and enforce meaningful regulation of the fisheries that has left us in the mess we are in.

I know at least off the cape were I've dove many times Moon Jellies are out of control. sometimes they're so thick its not even worth getting in the water. When I was a kid those little red comb jellies were few and far between ( although you sure knew when you got zapped by one ) now whenever I get back and go diving I see several of them.

its unfortunately the fisherman who will pay for the failures of the scientific community on this one, regulations can only get tighter and fish are only getting fewer so fishermen can only charge more or be fewer themselves

wanna guess which it will be

personally when I retire back to the water I want there to be a vibrant and rigorous fishing industry that I can both be there for and that will be there for me if and when the time comes for us to need each other. We all do better when the oceans are healthy and producing.

[masalai]

Sadly I am fearful for all the global ecosystems, we (humanity) have failed miserably in our duties and responsibilities, - - being to care for this planet - - Our children and their children can rightfully be pissed off and saddened by our collective abuse of the environment - - All in the name of selfish "now" self-gratification and the consequences of these actions that we must wear... The burden is ours as murderers of the future... For which I am deeply sorry and ashamed, that I did not get angrier sooner and become more active in seeking ways and means to secure future sustainability....

[brian eiland]

Several years ago I visited a friend who bought some properties in Nova Scotia, including one in the town of Lunenburg (a UNESCO site)

I paid a visit to their Maritime Museum of Fisheries. Great little museum if you ever get a chance.

In that museum as well as many other locations around the town you will see old photos of the HUGE catches of COD off of the Grand Banks. The fishing there was unbelievable. Now it is also unbelievable...unbelievable bad

A Run on the Banks
How "Factory Fishing" Decimated Newfoundland Cod

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...lame-the-seals

Who brought up the plastics? Whoever doesn't agree with you people is guilty of drivel? You, and your dumbass professor video (of which I was able to bear 15 minutes), and your need for attachments, remind me of many times I was working on a research ship, M/V Tiglax, U.S.Fish and Wildlife service. We would routinely get "scientists" aboard who would proclaim their area of expertize; "Whale Biologist", for example.
"Really, what is your experience?"
"I studied them in school and learned that every humpback has a different pattern of spots on its tail. They eat plankton. They are endangered and man has to do what they can to help them."
"Great! Where have you studied them?"
"Well, I worked on a tour boat one summer at Cape Cod but I really don't know if those were the same kind of whales."

Boston, I believe I said humpbacks, not grays. I never suggested killing off the last blues - or any other distressed population. In fact, I have been active in trying to get the natives of the north slope to come down here and take over-abundant humpbacks eating me out of house and home, rather than fighting for the go-ahead to harvest five bowheads when that puts a serious dent in the population.
You guys are typical leftists obfuscating and inundating to influence the uneducated masses to see the world with your type in control - because you see yourselves as necessary to save us from ourselves.
Same techniques on climate change - currently GW (give it ten years). Same on over-population. Same on crime - Starting with Johnson and Supreme Court Chief Judge Bazelon in the sixties ("criminals are a product of society and need our help to make them productive members"). Same on sex ed and curvature of morality - Never mind that THIS little experiment has destroyed our very fabric starting in the sixties and culminating with the dandy imposition of Ruth Bader Ginsburg empathy and social re-structuring. Same on economics - Keynes, Marx, Roosevelt and Johnson are now being resuscitated for Obama's power play.
We've got a lot of people and they need to eat. We do a pretty good job with the oceans. Mistakes, to be sure, but Christ, What do you expect? Nobody want's to F the place up. Just lighten up, take care of your families and do your jobs. Quit trying to make yourselves out to be the enlightened ones, nay, the annointed ones and everything will work itself out. Really - it's been doing that since the beginning of time.
If you really want to influence people, try a Huffington Post or New York Times forum while they are still in business. They are more easily influenced than a designer, typically with an engineering background.
For those who need attachments (I don't want to buy your mess in California - I've got Alaska):
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/w...=shararich.jpg
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/w...smexico342.jpg
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/w...=uglydog-1.jpg

[Boston]

we bring up what is probably the worlds leading researcher on ocean sciences and conservation and the best you can say is

"dumbass professor"

While Im sure we all would've appreciated an in depth rebuttal to DR Jacksons views in order to facilitate our discussion the obvious inability to point by point refute his assertions is glaringly apparent.

in a nutshell there are two kinds of researchers
lab rats
and field scientists
I also have been on a variety of scientific outings were the lab rats made themselves obvious from the moment they stood on the dock and fumbled here way aboard so dont feel like you have some kind of monopoly on the "who is this fool" attitude. It takes all kinds, if you want decent lab work you tent to go to a specialist on gas chromatography or whatever and if you want decent field work you tend to stick with the people who have actually done some collecting and might actually know how to use a slurp gun rather than accidentally suction it to the ass of there dive partner.

point is that suggesting that a whale is to blame for the lack of fish when its humans that take well over 100 MILLION TONS of known catch and likely double that in unregulated catch from the sea and bulldoze the oceans doing it is ridiculous

its frightening to hear the ignorance in the numbers you claim
hump backs eat about twice what greys eat and have a slightly shorter migration pattern maybe 8000 miles rather than about 10000+
not even close though to what you are claiming they can eat though

Want to really do something about a perceived lack of plankton? With an estimated 20 tons per day diet per whale get the tree huggers off our ass and lets get the damned humpback whales pared down.

buy the way Hump Backs if I remember dont eat plankton although they are Baleen whales they tend to eat slightly larger fish say in the 3" to 6" range but I dont think they even eat plankton. ( I should look it up but somehow I dont think it will make much difference )

but
20 tons
please
its not there fault that the fish stocks are declining
if I remember it right the whales been eating for a few million years and never ran out of fish. We come along and eat our way out of house and home and then complain that the nearly extinct species did it. Thats frightening to say the least.

you might find it interesting that I dont find it the fault of the fisherman either
the fault of the state of the oceans lies clearly on the shoulders of the world politic and the failure of nations to come to any sustainable agreement concerning fishing and the scientific communities inability to recognize the imperative need and for governments to enforce regulation.
the fishermen were just doing what they do best and happened to be pretty dam good at it
like I said somewhere else on this thing
when it comes time for me to retire back to the water I want an active and vibrant fishing industry out there with me and able to both lend and receive assistance if the need should arise, we are in the end, all in the same boat so to speak.
Alaska as Im sure you will agree has a highly regulated and reasonable well enforced fishing fleet. Most fisheries do not and its that fact that has kept the Alaska waters so productive.

you might hate the regulation
but its keeping you in business
or have you not noticed whats going on with the rest of the fisheries around the world

cause there screwed
the fish are gone
and the bottom is trawled barren

doesnt take an expert to see it when Sushi grade Tuna is $18 a pound
or when 80% of the coral in the Caribbean is dead
50% in the Indian ocean
or 95/100 fish over 1' gone from the sea

"I should look it up but somehow I dont think it will make much difference" - Really? You mean you are not like your buddies Googling every damn thing to appear learned, cloaked by the veil of internet anonymity?
"you might hate the regulation
but its keeping you in business" -
Sorry. Been doing it all my life and perhaps 3% of biologists, "experts", are worth a ****. Every thing they have touched in my state has turned to just that. From my house, I can throw a rock at about twenty failed experiments by politicians using biologist numbers.
The "Foremost MotherF'er" I tried to wade through sounded just like every environmental studies pretender I've ever been around - just like the ones I never showed up for class for and still aced their best efforts to trip me. So basic. So derivative. The guy obviously has been to school. That's the way these guys are - professional students, then profs hangin' out to impress and bang coeds. "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."
Sorry, foremost in your circle maybe. From the fifteen minutes I saw, I just think he should do something productive and quit AlGoring. Reminds me of another "foremost" - Ward Churchill from up your street.

I have watched a humpback take a half ton of capelin in one scoop. These things are eating machines (I didn't read that). Yes, they eat plankton. They eat everything in front of them. They target small fish.
Also, everything in nature is cyclic. Right now, there are a lot of humpbacks. Soon, if the orca don't kill enough of them, they will starve themselves and we'll go back to a few humpbacks. A little selective culling would leave more biomass for finfish and ultimately, humans. Whales are kinda cool, in moderation. I'll give you that.
Seen "Whale Wars" on TV? Pretty good stuff - A bunch of Sea Shepherd hippies without a clue as to what they are doing chasing after professional whalers from Japan in the Antarctic Ocean. So far, all they have managed to do is hurt themselves, sometimes badly. Really can't grasp WHY one would want to artificially protect these animals just so they can eat more/ poop more, etc.. Is anthropomorphism behind this behavior? Do they think that the Japanese are wasting these animals? Believe me, I've seen it and they are not. Whales are too valuable to waste.

[bntii]

Boston- you going to take this one?

LOL