Our Oceans are Under Attack

[hoytedow]

Argh!

[Boston]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eans-seas.html

a perfectly lovely article concerning how nice it is to just dump your plastics trash in the ocean

[hoytedow]

OK, everybody. Boston is right. No more nerdle soup, please. I am still pro-plastic. I just don't want irresponsible ****** throwing it into our oceans and making our world uglier. Maybe all plastic owners should register with the Bureau of Acrylic, Toluol, and Freeradicals.
Seriously. Give a hoot. Don't pollute. Tell it to the unwashed masses.

[Boston]

e gads
a convert ?
that would be a first around here

[hoytedow]

No, Boston, I am not a convert. It may come as a surprise to you that as a life-long conservative I believe in conserving non-renewable resources as well as the intelligent usage of renewable resources, as well as preserving or conserving our personal freedoms, including one's right to privacy to behave as one wants behind one's own door. Who killed Lake Erie? Not Frank McGee, certainly, contrary to the old axiom of "He who smelt it dealt it".

[Boston]

hmmmm
cant say I ever studied lake Erie
but if I remember is had something to do with the steel industry

it may also come as a surprise to you that I also believe in less government is better
essentially there are about 1500 new laws every year and each one creates a criminal out of an otherwise honest person

however its industry not government we need to watch out for
( although government is definitely next on the list )
ever read Upton StClairs Jungle
basically its an expose on the meat packing industry
the then sitting president read it and was so horrified he instantly created the FDA to specifically to regulate the packing industry

not sure if your aware of it but international waters are basically used as a trash can
works ok as long as your throwing biodegradable's but after fifty years or so of ever increasing plastics production and given that about 80% of it has ended up in the oceans
were basically buried in plastic at this point
welcome to the corporate world
on a microscopic level
your in the middle of a long and short chain plastics snow storm no mater were you are
after the 40% or so of binders that make up plastic disasociate and end up in the environment as persistent toxins ( as most binders are ) the remaining ~60% is nearly indestructible very large plastics molecules

they tend to act as bio toxin accumulators absorbing pollutants from there environment and releasing them during the digestion process
its basically what has made the polar environments so the most polluted
the process acts to concentrate toxins up the food chain
consequently a polar bear in the arctic is so full of toxins that it would qualify at hazardous waste under the present EPA guidelines

you seem like a reasonable guy
read this thread in its entirety and see if what Im saying isnt gospel
were killing the oceans and its industry that is largely to blame
that and basic apathy
given that a large amount of protien is pulled from the oceans to feed humanity it stands to reason that conserving this resource would be in our better interest

dam I need to do a bunch of router work today and its raining out
ever seen how much dust a 3 1/2 " raised panel bit can throw
definetly not what you want to do in the basement with no prayer of a dust collection system catching it
its all curved sections and my shaper just doesnt do curves very well

cheers
B

[hoytedow]

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Public Papers of the Presidents, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960, p. 1035- 1040

My fellow Americans:

Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor.

This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen.

Like every other citizen, I wish the new President, and all who will labor with him, Godspeed. I pray that the coming years will be blessed with peace and prosperity for all.

Our people expect their President and the Congress to find essential agreement on issues of great moment, the wise resolution of which will better shape the future of the Nation.

My own relations with the Congress, which began on a remote and tenuous basis when, long ago, a member of the Senate appointed me to West Point, have since ranged to the intimate during the war and immediate post-war period, and, finally, to the mutually interdependent during these past eight years.

In this final relationship, the Congress and the Administration have, on most vital issues, cooperated well, to serve the national good rather than mere partisanship, and so have assured that the business of the Nation should go forward. So, my official relationship with the Congress ends in a feeling, on my part, of gratitude that we have been able to do so much together.

II.

We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.

III.

Throughout America's adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations. To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people. Any failure traceable to arrogance, or our lack of comprehension or readiness to sacrifice would inflict upon us grievous hurt both at home and abroad.

Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology -- global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger is poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle -- with liberty the stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.

Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research -- these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.

But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage -- balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.

The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.

IV.

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present

and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.

V.

Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

VI.

Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.

Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield.

Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.

Happily, I can say that war has been avoided. Steady progress toward our ultimate goal has been made. But, so much remains to be done. As a private citizen, I shall never cease to do what little I can to help the world advance along that road.

VII.

So -- in this my last good night to you as your President -- I thank you for the many opportunities you have given me for public service in war and peace. I trust that in that service you find some things worthy; as for the rest of it, I know you will find ways to improve performance in the future.

You and I -- my fellow citizens -- need to be strong in our faith that all nations, under God, will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle, confident but humble with power, diligent in pursuit of the Nation's great goals.

To all the peoples of the world, I once more give expression to America's prayerful and continuing aspiration:

We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.


P.S. Frank McGee was an NBC reporter who did a hit piece on Lake Erie with the title "Who killed Lake Erie". Another poor attempt at humor by Yours Truly.

[Boston]

I always loved that speech
ranks as one of the most well written moments in any presidential address

you got me on that last bit
I also have a rather goofy sense so humor so no worries

[brian eiland]

Thanks for that copy of his speech. I've quoted small portions of it over the past 8 years. but never taken the time to read it all in a very long time.

It is so timeless in its breath of understanding.

[hoytedow]

Yeah, he was a great man, if not so energetic a president, due to his health being so poor.

[kach22i]

This was just posted in another forum.

Is this for real?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...pics-1261.html

Originally Posted by john70t

The world's rubbish dump: a tip that stretches from Hawaii to Japan - Environment - The Independent

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Boston

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eans-seas.html

a perfectly lovely article concerning how nice it is to just dump your plastics trash in the ocean

Goes well with my other post.

[Boston]

unfortunately yes
there are several large gyre systems between the current paths and each contains a large patch of garbage in the middle

the predominance of plastic over plankton is roughly 10/1 when last measured
that in I think 01 up from 7/1 as measured in 96 ( I think Ild have to go look it up )

basically were killing the oceans
9/10 fish over one foot long are gone
the currents are slowing down significantly
pollution is on an exponential rise particularly plastics
the incidence of coastal dead zones are increasing the Mississippi delta dead zone being a prime example
2/3 of the worlds population derives a significant part of there protein from the oceans
and that protein is fast running out

and yup its for real

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by Boston

the incidence of coastal dead zones are increasing the Mississippi delta dead zone being a prime example

and yup its for real

Thanks to channelization of the river, which sends nutrients into the sea, rather than onto the farmlands/floodplains where God intended. Why do people insist on building on the floodplains, destroying acreage that could have grown foodstuffs and expecting other people to rebuild what they lost? What a waste of money and good arable land!

[Boston]

traditionally modern civilizations determines the best course of action environmentally speaking
and then does the opposite

almost every town or city in the USA is built on what is also the best farmland

we farm the less productive areas

when Powell wrote his report on water and the west he concluded that there was insufficient water to develop in the west and that natural irrigation and cultivation of flood plains would be the most practical approach to developing the agricultural resources in the west

the US gov then decided to build the largest dam project on the planet at the time and named it after him

lake Powell

once upon a time the farmers of the Owens Valley developed a cooperative irrigation network on a natural flood plain
it could have produced indefinitely if for no other reason than that of good drainage and plenty of nutrients
then along came the dep. of water Cal. and baught up key areas of the irrigation works
filled it in and built a dam
spent hundreds of millions in public money
sent the water to the San something valley
which was an old dry lake bed with a clay bottom at the time owned by the board members of the water dep.
selenium build up has now left much of it out of production
and the rest in imminent danger of going out of production

B