Noahs' Ark- Better than New?

[Boston]

I think you might be reading a little to much into a completely innocuous symbol

Also I've always wanted to ask someone who actually believes that stuff how they justify the fact that the Sumerians have virtually the exact same flood story yet from roughly 2000 years earlier. Isn't it obvious that the Hycsos ( early jews ) borrowed the story when inventing there own mythos ?

Kinda hard to ignore, I'd think

[bntii]

Isn't the flood story supposed to be based on a actual event?
I seem to recall a natural dam in some huge inland sea failing and causing widespread flooding over thar somewhere??

edit- a quick look finds this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...oah-flood.html

[Boston]

there have been several large scale natural floods. Its thought that the dead sea is the remnant of one, and the Mediterranean another, I think. Also there was a ice dam that built up in several places and created some of the topography in both the midwest and the eastern US.

But all in all there was never a worldwide event that can be supported with any scientific evidence. Also the exodus would appear to be devoid of support within any of the sciences. So there are several mythos that are blatantly unsupported and highly unlikely.

[bntii]

I was raised by wolves as well- as a wee lad we all went off to see a film at church about the current crop of ark found on Mount Ararat. (viewed maybe 40 years ago..)
If I remember correctly the most of the ship was visible with the hull and planks all present.
The ship was erupting from the glacial ice.

I looked around and can find no evidence of the film- are these things destroyed or is there a archive hidden somewhere?

[bntii]

Originally Posted by Boston

there have been several large scale natural floods. Its thought that the dead sea is the remnant of one, and the Mediterranean another, I think. Also there was a ice dam that built up in several places and created some of the topography in both the midwest and the eastern US.

But all in all there was never a worldwide event that can be supported with any scientific evidence. Also the exodus would appear to be devoid of support within any of the sciences. So there are several mythos that are blatantly unsupported and highly unlikely.

I sort of quickly scanned the thread- the exodus not supported?/???

What axe is ground here?
Isn't the whole script more likely than not?

[MikeJohns]

Ian Plimmers book 'Telling lies for God' was mentioned before and I took the time to read it, it's quite illuminating the level of "false witness" that gets promulgated by the biblical creation myth industry in the USA.

Floods are common events. A lot of flood myths were modified either from contact with missionaries or from earlier contact with Mesopotamian myths, which is where the Jewish one comes from.

I asked a Chinese friend about the boat Chinese symbol, he says it's a misrepresentation of the Glyph and the symbols on the right don't mean 8 people. "Like saying the written 18 is same as 100 because there is 1 and two zero...."

I still want to know how the Tasmanian Devil was dropped off here and here alone ! Also if you can't have evolution then every species specific disease and parasite had to be present in the animals on the Ark. And these points are just the start....
When you peruse the Ark myth its apparent that it requires huge amounts of magic (miracles) to make it happen. But categorically and relative to this forum it's clear that the Ark is a myth from a Naval Architecture approach. It's just not possible for a wooden ship structure of that size to remain intact ( without magic). There's some reference to a Korean University unpublished unreviewed 'Paper' that 'Proves' that it was structurally sound but when I was sent the article it turned out to be just more of the same desperate extravagance of reasoning.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by bntii

..........

I looked around and can find no evidence of the film- are these things destroyed or is there a archive hidden somewhere?

It was a hoax I think it's called the Jammal ark hoax.

[Boston]

Originally Posted by bntii

I sort of quickly scanned the thread- the exodus not supported?/???

What axe is ground here?
Isn't the whole script more likely than not?

I think I mentioned the book "The bible unearthed" in this thread somewhere. Anyway its written by to of the middle east's top archeologists, who investigated the exodus story from an archeological point of view. What they found was there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to support the story. For instance, there's a satellite thats imaging system works in a band width that allows it to see through sand to the desert floor, Every Bedouin trash trail or even individual camp site can be spotted, the remnants having eventually sunk through the sand to the desert floor. If tens of thousands of people had wondered the desert for any length of time, let alone 40 years, there'd be a trail of artifacts that not only would be visible to the new imaging systems but also could be dug up and confirmed as being early Judaic in origin. Didn't happen. Multiple universities mapped pretty much the entire desert area, particularly in areas purported to have been traveled in the biblical mythos. Nothing, nada, nill, nine, zilch.

There are a number of the basics that are just completely unsupported. Particularly the ark myth. The flood myth and the exodus myth. I'm sure if we were to look into other bible stories we'd see the same trend.

cheers
B

[bntii]

Hmmmm- I take the exodus story to be just one of the resident slave population splitting the pad when the culture that was enslaving them started to become unhinged.

The bible lays out that god got the party started- plagues, frogs etc... & in historical fact the migration probably happened over several generations as new lands were sought, and communities established.

But otherwise, whats not to like?
Same thing happened when the Aztec culture collapsed eh?
(or am I thinking Mayan?)


This case seems like a good example of the bible being a reliable historical text for a understandable event.

I am rusty perhaps- is this the 'exodus' story being discussed? You know, mosses parting the red sea burning bush tablets and that whole mess?

Speaking of tablets- anyone see 'The Invention of Lying'?

[Boston]

the archeological findings revealed almost the opposite of the exodus story. The Egyptians although almost certain to have enslaved some number of the Hycsos ( early Jews ) built a series of fortifications along the Nile delta area to keep the surrounding more primitive peoples out, rather than in. Particularly during times of drought or in years of low crop yield. During a particularly dry spell it seems that the Egyptian land holders withdrew from the Canaan Valley area never to return, and eventually the Hycsos migrated down from the surrounding hills and into the long abandoned dwellings. It is most likely the Egyptians abandoned the valley area, rather than it was lost to any military action and its most likely that the Hycsos were always there, which is supported with artifact finds, rather than there have been some exodus who's consequences are somehow invisible to modern research.

There is also a telling silence in the Egyptian record of the time. Or in the records of the other valley tribes, that there was ever a mas exodus from Egypt or a military conquest of the canaan.

Its one of the more thoroughly researched of the bible stories.

two must reads if you actually interested in religious history is "paul the myth maker" and "the bible unearthed"

Cheers
B

[masrapido]

Originally Posted by Boston

I think I mentioned the book "The bible unearthed" in this thread somewhere. Anyway its written by to of the middle east's top archeologists, who investigated the exodus story from an archeological point of view. What they found was there is absolutely not a shred of evidence to support the story. For instance, there's a satellite thats imaging system works in a band width that allows it to see through sand to the desert floor, Every Bedouin trash trail or even individual camp site can be spotted, the remnants having eventually sunk through the sand to the desert floor. If tens of thousands of people had wondered the desert for any length of time, let alone 40 years, there'd be a trail of artifacts that not only would be visible to the new imaging systems but also could be dug up and confirmed as being early Judaic in origin. Didn't happen. Multiple universities mapped pretty much the entire desert area, particularly in areas purported to have been traveled in the biblical mythos. Nothing, nada, nill, nine, zilch.

There are a number of the basics that are just completely unsupported. Particularly the ark myth. The flood myth and the exodus myth. I'm sure if we were to look into other bible stories we'd see the same trend.

cheers
B

There, Boston, the link to the whole series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440b...eature=related

An eye-opener. Jerusalem was NOT a "resplendent" and "fabulous" city. It was a small crappy village.

And "mesiah" is not a person's name. Primitive jews borrowed Persian words to cry out "our king", me shah in Persian, will come one day and free us from invaders!!!

Meaning, ok we are crappy and primitive today, so whatever powerful empire comes, they run us over, but one day we too will have a king (shah, like Reza Pahlavi, Iranian shah) and he will lead us to freedom.

The cry had NOTHING to do with the biblical interpretation, It was incorporated through the centuries because it was repeated so many times that it became a "truth" unto itself.

Shah - king, is the name of the game too. In english it is called a chess. We can see how different people, speaking different languages, can distort the original word/s and somewhat change the original meaning too.

Me shah (our king) became a guy messiah...

What a load of delusions is a religion.

What does it tell you the fact that those arabs had to invent 5-6 religions before they finally turned into religious fanatics they are today!!?? First they had politeistic religions for about a thousand of years, then under the influence of powerful empires aroudn they started leaning towards one, then they invented judaism, then christianity and then muslim religion...

ANd it all has the roots in Egyptian religion.

Where do you think the "amen" they all (jews, christians and muslims) say, came from?

From Amen/Amon, Egyptian god. Just as in these three little pesky "religions", Egyptians used to say: who is the one and the great? Amen is the one.

This is a historical fact. I is well known how did Egyptians pray and what they used to say in their prayers.

So the next time christians, muslims and jews around in this forum say "amen", remember that you are merely confirming that the only one and the greatest is the god Amen/Amon.

There's a reason why most of the faraons (pheros?) had their names end with amen or amon.

[masrapido]

Originally Posted by bntii

Hmmmm- I take the exodus story to be just one of the resident slave population splitting the pad when the culture that was enslaving them started to become unhinged.

The bible lays out that god got the party started- plagues, frogs etc... & in historical fact the migration probably happened over several generations as new lands were sought, and communities established.

But otherwise, whats not to like?
Same thing happened when the Aztec culture collapsed eh?
(or am I thinking Mayan?)


This case seems like a good example of the bible being a reliable historical text for a understandable event.

I am rusty perhaps- is this the 'exodus' story being discussed? You know, mosses parting the red sea burning bush tablets and that whole mess?

Speaking of tablets- anyone see 'The Invention of Lying'?

Nothing wrong with the legends per se. It's just that when you read the epic of Gilgamesh (Gilga the king in Persian), you recognize Noah and his ark. almost 2000 years OLDER epic.

And the Red Sea story is just a recount of an arab legend about Jusuf and his followers falling out of grace with the kalif in Saana (Yemen) and having to run away up north, through the DESRET called RED SEA.

The wind ("god") raised the RED SEA and burried the puruers, saving Yusuf and his ilk who then spent decades wondering around the Saudi Arabian peninsula before, what a funny coincidence, settling in what we know as Israel and Palestine today.

If you have muslim friends ask them to find you the story, or tell it to you.

Very informative. Oh, it is also older than the bible story. I heard it in Jiddah, while on board of a merchant ship. We stopped there to load the ship before heading to Europe, and got stuck seven days due to some deckhands not having their vaccination carnets in order.

To come to think of it, I heard a lot of old stories and legends there... Apparently the 1001 night is not as raunchy as "western" propaganda would want us to think. Quite to the contrary. But that subject would need another thread.

[Boston]

There is a lot of stuff like that hidden within the pauline christian interpretation of things Diego. One that you might find interesting is that a virgin birth in Judaic culture of the time was one that occurred within the traditional one year waiting period between engagement and marriage. It was a nice way of saying there was a bun in the oven a little early.

Its a mosh of misrepresentation in a time period where within a life span the generally illiterate masses would believe just about anything, as long as they had no direct experience with the storys origins. One reason Paul ended writing so many letters. Jesus contemporaries wouldn't put up with his BS and just about rioted when he spewed the rubbish he did. Thesolonia for example.

Whole thing is really really interesting and I spent a lot of elective credit hours on it.

Anyway good to hear from you
Cheers
B

[bntii]

Sure Bos- make sure you are not being debunked by the debunkers.
You know how to check your sources but just off hand those books sound like lay titles.

I never had much interest in religious history but who knows, I could turn over a new leaf!

[Boston]

not even remotely

all three authors held PHD's and all three were active at various universities, Silberman and Finklestein are huge in the field of archeology and Macoby work is about as well respected as any in his field, Which actually isn't saying much because religious studies are all subject to at least some level of interpretation. But none the less his work was very often cited and his books best sellers. Kinda the Stephan Hawkings of his day in the field.

I think if you research those authors you'll find a pretty impressive list of credentials

The Bible Unearthed is the more recent work so If I had to pick one to recommend I'd say thats the one. But both are spectacular in there own right.

B