The nanny state - Licences and registration

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

Well, yes, I suppose I could vocally argue about revenue collectors pretending to be the water police and discuss geothermic energy sources and our idiotic carbon tax. I'd even be happy to discuss the tree hugging and bunny loving disposition of our hippies.

Would any of you mind if we in fact discussed the licensing and registration issues of sailing craft in victoria au and the legitimate ways to avoid them?

As hot rocks and other cleaver means of generating electricity are very interesting... I'm more interested in screwing over the nanny state.

already told you, don't fit an engine. i really don't understand why you are making such a big deal about $74 a year.

[jamesgyore]

Originally Posted by whitepointer23

already told you, don't fit an engine. i really don't understand why you are making such a big deal about $74 a year.

It's not about $74 a year, it's the rest. I interviewed an elderly gentleman on Monday evening who had been detained on Sunday for almost an hour at the Altona boat ramp. He had valid licences for boat, car, etc, etc, etc.

Fault could not be found with his boat, equipment or licenses.

They had then tried to issue a fine to him for not having a fishing license until this poor gentleman insisted that he was exempt as he was over 70.

So what did the police finally nab him for? One of two bulbs that illuminate his rear number plate was blown. His car was deemed unroadworthy.

The revenue collectors with a badge and uniform were hell-bent on dishing out a fine to him and spent considerable time finding a reason to.

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

It's not about $74 a year, it's the rest. I interviewed an elderly gentleman on Monday evening who had been detained on Sunday for almost an hour at the Altona boat ramp. He had valid licences for boat, car, etc, etc, etc.

Fault could not be found with his boat, equipment or licenses.

They had then tried to issue a fine to him for not having a fishing license until this poor gentleman insisted that he was exempt as he was over 70.

So what did the police finally nab him for? One of two bulbs that illuminate his rear number plate was blown. His car was deemed unroadworthy.

The revenue collectors with a badge and uniform were hell-bent on dishing out a fine to him and spent considerable time finding a reason to.

We (I) already told you how to deal with this.

Move.

PDW

[rwatson]

Rather than 'screw over' the nanny state - how about a bit of support ? This is our world class, wonderful society that works on a fairly good system of rules.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"

I have a recent story of why law enforcement officers become so vindictive :-

I was down at the local steel shop yesterday, (you know the one PDW ) and a guy had backed his one tonne triton ute into the warehouse, so the perplexed crane operator could load 9 x 80 kilo, 6 metre long, 200 x 200 mm square tubing - ONTO HIS CARRY BARS !.

I said "Gee, I don't know that I would be doing that" I hinted politely

"Well, you're not doing it are you !" was the reply.

So, not only was he going to carry nearly the entire load capacity (1 tonne ) of his ute - it was going to be carried over his head ( the front support bars were designed to support long ladders), but they were going to extend 2 metres over either end.

This guy was rorting the nanny state - bugger the loading laws and any poor sod in front of him when he had to stop suddenly - for the sake of 5% extra cost on the load of steel for delivery.

The sooner some co-operation and common sense start permeating the population - the sooner we can get rid of the petty officials that have to enforce rules.

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Rather than 'screw over' the nanny state - how about a bit of support ? This is our world class, wonderful society that works on a fairly good system of rules.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"

I have a recent story of why law enforcement officers become so vindictive :-

I was down at the local steel shop yesterday, (you know the one PDW ) and a guy had backed his one tonne triton ute into the warehouse, so the perplexed crane operator could load 9 x 80 kilo, 6 metre long, 200 x 200 mm square tubing - ONTO HIS CARRY BARS !.

I said "Gee, I don't know that I would be doing that" I hinted politely

"Well, you're not doing it are you !" was the reply.

So, not only was he going to carry nearly the entire load capacity (1 tonne ) of his ute - it was going to be carried over his head ( the front support bars were designed to support long ladders), but they were going to extend 2 metres over either end.

This guy was rorting the nanny state - bugger the loading laws and any poor sod in front of him when he had to stop suddenly - for the sake of 5% extra cost on the load of steel for delivery.

The sooner some co-operation and common sense start permeating the population - the sooner we can get rid of the petty officials that have to enforce rules.

Hey, I didn't realise that was you or I might have been a bit more polite!

PDW

(Actually, it wasn't me, I own a Rodeo 4WD flat tray and I'd limit the top load to 500kg - I built my carry bars).

I once carried a Bridgeport turret milling machine home in the back of my old Mitsubishi 4WD. Sloooowly and very gingerly, and I was only going 2 km.

Problem with people doing stuff like that is, the person they kill or injure usually isn't themselves.

[waikikin]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Rather than 'screw over' the nanny state - how about a bit of support ? This is our world class, wonderful society that works on a fairly good system of rules.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country"

I have a recent story of why law enforcement officers become so vindictive :-

I was down at the local steel shop yesterday, (you know the one PDW ) and a guy had backed his one tonne triton ute into the warehouse, so the perplexed crane operator could load 9 x 80 kilo, 6 metre long, 200 x 200 mm square tubing - ONTO HIS CARRY BARS !.

I said "Gee, I don't know that I would be doing that" I hinted politely

"Well, you're not doing it are you !" was the reply.

So, not only was he going to carry nearly the entire load capacity (1 tonne ) of his ute - it was going to be carried over his head ( the front support bars were designed to support long ladders), but they were going to extend 2 metres over either end.

This guy was rorting the nanny state - bugger the loading laws and any poor sod in front of him when he had to stop suddenly - for the sake of 5% extra cost on the load of steel for delivery.

The sooner some co-operation and common sense start permeating the population - the sooner we can get rid of the petty officials that have to enforce rules.

Maybe be more "expressive" next time & use the correct words to the effect of "What the fairly obvious do you think your doing you clumsy oaf..... are you setting out to kill some poor coot or his family...... wake up to yourself you foolish cartage dodger...............

[jamesgyore]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Rather than 'screw over' the nanny state - how about a bit of support ? This is our world class, wonderful society that works on a fairly good system of rules.

A decidedly leftist and utopian sentiment, that unfortunately is not compatible with the "we do not tax" but we fine, levy, toll and licence for an outrageous fee "mentality" of Victoria.

I asked a question, got some fantastic suggestions and some really great ideas and advice from my solicitor that would never have occurred to me.

I have a smirk on my face as, along with some irrelevant rubbish from armchair sailers to be expected on-line, I now have the method to achieve the outcome I had hoped for, and originally asked about.

Thank you, this thread has inspired some creative thinking, and a great outcome for me.

Yes PDW, I can move on AND keep my engine (of sorts), it was your arrogance along with some sensible rational advice of another poster that lead us to a complex but defendable solution.

I am giddy with delight and thank you all for your replies to my original post.

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

A decidedly leftist and utopian sentiment, that unfortunately is not compatible with the "we do not tax" but we fine, levy, toll and licence for an outrageous fee "mentality" of Victoria.

I asked a question, got some fantastic suggestions and some really great ideas and advice from my solicitor that would never have occurred to me.

I have a smirk on my face as, along with some irrelevant rubbish from armchair sailers to be expected on-line, I now have the method to achieve the outcome I had hoped for, and originally asked about.

Thank you, this thread has inspired some creative thinking, and a great outcome for me.

Yes PDW, I can move on AND keep my engine (of sorts), it was your arrogance along with some sensible rational advice of another poster that lead us to a complex but defendable solution.

I am giddy with delight and thank you all for your replies to my original post.

i think you will find that most of us on here own boats and have had for a long time, no need to insult everyone. can you change your avatar, that picture is disturbing.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

... I asked a question, got some fantastic suggestions and some really great ideas and advice from my solicitor that would never have occurred to me.

Good for you - I hope it makes you very happy. Its probably best you don't share the info with anyone, or they will make a law against it when everyone starts doing it.

I like your Avatar - it is very revealing of your personality.

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

Yes PDW, I can move on AND keep my engine (of sorts), it was your arrogance along with some sensible rational advice of another poster that lead us to a complex but defendable solution.

What arrogance? I've been very polite (for me). I'm just realistic enough to not try changing bureaucrats' minds, it's futile, as is whining about them on a public forum like this. You want to make (some) difference, record a movie of them and post it on Youtube or something, that at least gets some attention.

As I said in the first place, I'm quite happy to 'game' rules that make no sense to me. I do it all the time. I built my house and told council afterwards as it was easier to pay the fine than deal with their b/s. But that's me.

Love Masalai's tip about Australian registration as I didn't realise that exempted you from State registration. I don't really care about the cost of annual State registration fees but I *do* care about getting one more bill sent to somewhere when I might be elsewhere and not get it for months.

I note that after asking here and admitting to getting useful advice, you aren't prepared to give any back. Thanks for that.

PDW

[jamesgyore]

Originally Posted by pdwiley

You want to make (some) difference, record a movie of them and post it on Youtube or something, that at least gets some attention.

While it's a little off topic, you're bang on.

I'll be spending the weekend shopping for video and audio gear for four teams.

I have the ambition to produce an indy 60 Minutes of sorts to name and shame individuals employed by the state, local municipalities and firms that carry out revenue earning and law enforcement on behalf of either.

Issues I pondered as I read through the various posts in this thread, was matters of apathy and acceptance.

Referring to that elderly gentleman one last time. I don't think the police in this case were doing anything other than trying very hard to find a reason to fine him.

The police are technically right, a blown globe does technically make the car unroadworthy. This guy will simply pay his fine, be angry for a while, and yet do nothing about the fact it was his turn to be singled out for a contribution to general state revenue.

I'm keen to see where this might lead... As you suggested, it might well lead to change.

I think the secret to its success will be the accountability of individuals. Blaming the system achieves nothing, blaming the person that built or enforces the system will.

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

I think the secret to its success will be the accountability of individuals. Blaming the system achieves nothing, blaming the person that built or enforces the system will.

Absolutely right.

Keep in mind that there are (IMO) 2 main drivers of policy/rules.

First is ideology. You will rarely change these peoples' minds with facts if they have an ideological fixation because facts are irrelevant in their closed universe. All you can do with people like this is remove them or work around them and reduce them to impotence.

The second sort are those who react to publicity. We get a lot of our stupid nanny state rules because of people like that. 'If it saves one life, it's worth it' is a classic from this type; they never do risk analysis. They are basically weathervanes without principles of their own.

In both cases, bad publicity works. Appealing to common sense doesn't.

However, when naming & shaming individuals, have a care. A lot of those poor bastards at the public front have no say in making policy and are equally as helpless. Making them look bad is just as abusive as screaming at a bank teller or similar because the ATM ate your card. They didn't make policy and they may hate their job but desperately need the money. It's dead easy to say that they should get another job, not so easy to do that.

So, more power to you on this one, but pick your targets carefully. Cops and other enforcement people are fair game IMO because they have great discretionary power, and should use it with common sense and discretion.

BTW I've been pulled over here for a vehicle safety check. We don't have annual inspections but they do conduct random roadside checks. Last time I had 1 blinker globe out. The instruction was to get it fixed and on your way. In the case you cite, I do wonder if there was some form of 'performance management' in place where performance was partially defined in terms of how many fines were issued.

The Tasmanian cops have never bothered asking me why I'm driving around on a NSW licence. The NSW cops, OTOH, have asked me why I was driving around in a Tasmanian plated vehicle on a NSW licence. I like Tasmania much better.

PDW

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by jamesgyore

.... Referring to that elderly gentleman one last time. I don't think the police in this case were doing anything other than trying very hard to find a reason to fine him...... .

Just a thought - unless you were a witness to the event, its hard to cast doubts on either party.

I have found that 'elderly gentleman " are just as capable of 'spinning' a situation as anyone who gets confronted by authority.

[jamesgyore]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Just a thought - unless you were a witness to the event, its hard to cast doubts on either party.

I have found that 'elderly gentleman " are just as capable of 'spinning' a situation as anyone who gets confronted by authority.

Indeed I agree.

In this particular case, an employee was at the boat ramp while it occurred and called me to rush down. She is in agreement with the elderly gentleman about timeline and order of events.

About 11 weeks ago I scooped commercial news crews to a crime scene just by being in the wrong place at exactly the right time with my camera gear.

Since then, I have family, friends and employees all worded up, should anything unusual occur.

It's early days, and we have yet to establish editorial policy and standards, but my preference is to be a primary source and first-hand witness.

[TeddyDiver]

Just a quickie question... Was the boat ramp private or public?