My objections to Zero's new Health care plan.

Medicare and Medicaid were toothless at 10 to 20% of today's damage since 1965.It wasn't until 2003 that George W. Bush started this Medicare giveaway to drug makers and insurance companies and prelude to the dismantling of the program. Believe it or not, W was not economically inclined - for him to sign the bill of the sweeping changes in pay for medicine was not only a travesty, it insured the failure of the system. You see, making one person pay for someone else's goods or services is inefficient, as well as being unfair. We should have a "right" to eat, shouldn't we? Why doesn't everyone pitch in and buy my groceries because I don't want to work. Never did. I would like ribeye steak tonight please...5/4 inch thick, Montreal Steak Seasoning, seared three minutes on each side in a smoking hot cast skillet (I can't cook - I'm sick).
Not trying to intimidate, no. You brought up the not-atypical liberal's response; "...dont tell me your going to get your gun because i may have a better gun and i may be better at using it..." - I don't believe you, or anyone that believes like you, is out-gunning me ANYTIME. There is a bigger reason for gaudy displays of firepower - The Soviets kept us at bay for decades with their May Day parades and our subsequent belief that they had more capability than they actually had. Gun owners have the same capability to keep the government at bay. The more guns and ammo we purchase, the less likely they are to come for our last remaining rights as delineated by our Constitution.
About the 3/5 thing - The non-slave owners of the north had that put in because they didn't have as many slaves. If slaves counted as a whole person, people such as yourself would have been kicked out of here long ago. Until just recently, blacks were the most conservative of demographics! Typically down on education, even blacks know that taking from one and giving it to another is wrong and inefficient.
"the townhall disrupters"? If they were Cindy Shehans even, they would be lauded, you hypocrite. These people don't agree with you so they are "disrupters" - one can see it in the posts you make - dissent irks you. We should just go along like good sheeple.

[TollyWally]

Frosty,
I posted once at the beginning of this thread and have refrained from posting further because I hate to see pointless political dissent lead to hard feelings at this place, which I treasure. Not being an American it is understandable that you don't have a complete grasp of the nuances of our Constitution nor appreciate how unique it is. We are not a perfect nation, such a thing does not exist. But we have accomplished much good in the world and have asked for very little in return. Imagine if will what the world, what your personal world, would be like if we did not exist.

Wardd,
Your remarks regarding the 3/5 compromise either reflect a poor understanding of US history or intellectual dishonesty. I think everyone here has a pretty good idea about your position on health care. Like minded individuals are already convinced but you are not making much of a case for the rest of us. Why not climb out of the hole and lay down your shovel?

[Upston]

" But we have accomplished much good in the world and have asked for very little in return. Imagine if will what the world, what your personal world, would be like if we did not exist.

Like minded individuals are already convinced but you are not making much of a case for the rest of us. Why not climb out of the hole and lay down your shovel?[/quote]"

Tolly Wally

Great stuff, The USA has saved most of the countries on the planet including mine, some several times, and is hated for it, France comes to mind.

If the USA is not around to be the peace maker, yes PEACE, then it's only a matter of time till some nice group like Wards revired Bathest party does the world domination thing again.

That's why we don't want any politicians R OR D to grab any more power not given to them in the constitution.

Brad

[wardd]

tolly, my point is that the constitution wasnt then nor is now perfect,but it has to be interpreted in a way that fits the conditions of today and that hopefully most can agree on, or at least accept and get on with our lives, at best its all compromise

[wardd]

aw man, did you have to trash skittles?

[masalai]

Your constitution, like ours is NOT relevant to "modern society" as it has had its original intentions destroyed by successive legal decisions to the benefit of vested interests... It is a "contract" whose time and usefulness has well and truly expired - - - as has current USA because it owes more than all the tangible assets in the flipping world...

Some of you are almost certifiable with analysis of some of the drivel so earnestly sprouted forth in some threads, but it is fun and keeps the brain active, for some of us bored, old farts

[wardd]

i useta till now

[masalai]

But I postulate the original intended meanings have been subverted by legalistic interpretations in an attempt "to clarify" some matter.... "legal battle" regularly erupts over a "constitutional definition" and there is great reluctance to change even one letter - so vast volumes of legal argument is dedicated to defining certain phrases...

To return to the orignial question of the thread - from my reading the "health" bill has been attacked and filled with other things and terms / conditions that it should NOT be passed, besides you (USA) is INSOLVENT, (here is one estimate http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ) so it is a luxury you cannot afford...

[thudpucker]

I had to laugh at myself. I'm starting to find things to agree with Wardd.

America is a Capitalist Republic. We are supposedly following the Rule of law.
We see the Rule of force after we have been convicted by a jury of our peers.

I see this Health initiative as the first step in converting the Capitalistic Republic to the Socialistic Welfare state of America, where the Government has every U.S. Citizen beholden and dependent on the U.S. Government.

The U.S. Government has to take some steps to make sure a small well organized militia don't take back the Capitalistic Republic. You better not let them know where you are hiding those guns.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by TollyWally

Frosty,
I posted once at the beginning of this thread and have refrained from posting further because I hate to see pointless political dissent lead to hard feelings at this place, which I treasure. Not being an American it is understandable that you don't have a complete grasp of the nuances of our Constitution nor appreciate how unique it is. We are not a perfect nation, such a thing does not exist. But we have accomplished much good in the world and have asked for very little in return. Imagine if will what the world, what your personal world, would be like if we did not exist.

W

Dont worry about hard feelings with me wally I can talk to you all day.

Your right I am not American, if you mean not born there. But Ille tell yer America is in my face every day. Iether in the news for a war that affects me to financial stupidity which affects me to American hating terrorists which affect me, very much, airport security and opening bank accounts is ridiculous.

I have not, nor do I intend to tell you what to do , my conversation on your constitution was my opinion of a document written 300 years ago. This document is constantly reviewed and as you say re interpreted. It was my suggestion that you rewrite it. Why this meets such an uproar is interesting.

I walk 100yds down the road on a tropical island west of Malaysia with monkeys and snakes and I pass Mc Donalds ,Kentucky, kenny Rodgers etc etc and some more American fast food crap.

America was born of greed, greed of Europeans. King George did not want US. But Europeans integrated into the continent and for reasons of greed only systematically tried to take all land and annihilate the indigenous American. Treating them as slaves and inferior,--incredible!!

It was a lawless country needing self protection, greed went unchecked and biggest guns talked.

From my point of view that attitude has not changed. I know Americans and as I see it are angry arrogant insistence on being right.

I have tried, but I have little time for most of them.


America has been quick in its development, a mere 400 years or so. It has made all that was good, biggest buildings , biggest cars, biggest frigdes, with a high quality of life admired by others recovering from a world war that you entered just-- just-- before you had to.
But along with your claim of single handed Victory and of world superiority developed shocking street violence, prohibition, gangs, murder, vulgarity, and drug related crime, and schools that just don't--cant educate? ---oh and more wars that seemed necessary

America seemed to have all that was good yet all that was bad and was feared for both reason especially the muslims who feared the inevitable export of all that is bad. They did'nt have the ability to cope with the crime and violence that comes with the freedom.

As do you today struggle with almost out of control imprisonment, the highest in the world.

If America was'nt there ? difficult to say. It could be said that we would not be in the mess we are now?

America will die from the same reason of its birth. Greed

America to me at the moment seems like a closing down sale in a supermarket with people running around looting and fighting each other for whats left.

What ever happens in the next few years you inclusion in the history books will be assured for many reasons, annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for one, killing millions of fellow humans in a second.

[thudpucker]

Frosty your partly correct about your fire sale comment.
The gold rush is on, but it's been on for a long long time.

When the first French Skinny tired bicycles first showed up I was pretty headstrong about my old fat tired Schwinn until I rode one of the French bikes. I liked it.
Then the Jap Motorcycles, the Jap cars, the Mexican trinkets....crap started coming in from everywhere. I discovered Coffee came from Juan Corona some where in another country.

I happened to be on a military base with a good Library in a nearby city so I began to research, to find out about how all this fits into Capitalism.

Boy was I shocked to find out the Americans had been selling Generators to Mitsubishi right up till the Pearl Harbor bombing. I think it was Delco, but it don't matter, we also sold them Rubber for tires, because at the time a lot of the Rubber plantations were in American hands. Other things as well.

The gold rush was on, starting with Gen. MacArthur trying to help Japan out of the destitution of WWII.
Some American went to Japan and found out he could buy lo and sell hi.
He could have it made in Japan and sell it in America.
Not to mention Truman trying to help Europe rebuild.
And when the Iron curtain came down another gold rush. Remember all those gaudy ugly dolls and things that came out of Russia after the Wall was knocked down?

We used to make what we sold, now the Orient makes what we sell.
Now America is a Service and Sales economy.
Fewer jobs for White Americans. However our White work force is quickly being replaced by a Brown work force.
Our white population is declining ( Herb Meyer's letter on Demographics) while the Brown skinned population is increasing.
Our Boomers are retiring and needing more medical help than ever because of the excess of drugs involved in their stupid protest moments and some other stupid life choices.
The Greatest generation is hardly consuming more than aspirin, compared to the druggies of the Boomer generation.
The Greatest Generation hardly ever asked for more that what they could afford.
The Boomers are whining and sniveling from birth about what the Government owes them.

The big question is where's the money going to come from?

If our work force is reduced to selling offshore goods to people, where do the buyers get the money to pay?
We have fewer jobs, fewer buyers....where?

What nobody seems to care about is what's going to happen to the underachievers we are pumping out of High schools. There were jobs for uneducated kids in our past. The brown skinned immigrants who breed like lice are getting all those labor jobs.

It don't look good for us, do it?

Two things are going to happen simultaneously. All the Trillions Obama spent, and all the jobs nobody has any longer are going to meet in the middle. When one hand is asking for taxes to pay off the Trillions, and the other hand is wondering where his work went because he cannot pay the taxes with no work.
Both entities are going to ask for help!

There is no other America to bail us out.

[masalai]

Did I miss out on something? my only smoking drug was American "Marlborough" - Thanks USA for that addiction which I stopped "cold turkey about 15 years ago... Other drugs - never even did a "Clinton" - no interest... but enjoyed alcohol but never got disorderly... Never went to a "rock concert" or any other loud venue... sewed lots of seeds, ate lots of good food... (hate usanian type convenience foods - too sweet)

Are you talking of usanian baby-boomers? here in Oz, they are starting to spend their childrens' inheritance, and referred to as the "grey" or "nomad army" as they travel towards the tropical regions in winter and migrate to the cooler regions in Summer....

thudpucker, the "sell yourself into slavery" option may be available to some?

[thudpucker]

Originally Posted by masalai

Are you talking of usanian baby-boomers? here in Oz, they are starting to spend their childrens' inheritance, and referred to as the "grey" or "nomad army" as they travel towards the tropical regions in winter and migrate to the cooler regions in Summer....

thudpucker,

LOL, "the Grey" or the "Nomad Army"
In Alaska we referred to your Nomad Army as the "Snow birds" that fly south for the winter and return northward for the summer. I did that too.

I didn't understand your question; "the "sell yourself into slavery" option may be available to some?"
I'm afraid my OZ is not as good as it could be

We have a lot of people who cruised through life without ever bothering to prepare for retirement. And of course we have a lot now, that relied solely on their Job for a retirement, but lost that when the job dried up.
Those who didn't put anything aside, or wound up with out any assets, (never had it or lost it all) would gladly sell their children into slavery so they might have the Government handle their Medical problems.

That's the attitude difference I mentioned between the "Greatest Generation" and the ''Baby Boomers".

As a child I was never allowed to play sports. The folks didn't have the money to support it, nor did they have any medical insurance. They couldn't afford it, so we didn't have it. That is the kind of sturdy stock that made America the strong country it is or maybe Was.

Now the current brainwashed, frightened, spoiled and very ignorant want it, at any price, not ever thinking what the real price could be!

[masalai]

Sorry thudpucker, I was having a bit of a "below the belt" dig at some of the "loud mouth deniers" who seem incapable of seeing the dire situation that confronts so many in USA because of the profligate and callous manipulation and theft operating in the bourse and major "merchant" banks...( - have a look at http://www.usdebtclock.org/ ) -

The global, and in particular USA, economic situation is so distressing that that could be the only resolution for some, being an extreme case, which I hope and pray does not befall anyone, but that does not diminish the seriousness of the situation as presented by such sources inside USA... I was thinking of a scene where the "patriarch" submits himself to tenured employment in order to settle a major debt, or feed the family...

Those figures (in the us National Debt clock) seem to be reasonably accurate as, from other sources, "estimated currency and credit derivatives" is on the mark... "The US unfunded liabilities", in my reckoning amount to 60 to 72 trillion.... "US gross domestic product" is about right but I have not done a check or tested past year results... "US debt held by foreign countries" could be quite low (depending on the definition and what it includes)...

Yes I also know how to survive, as my mother was what the demographers call "the frugals" (parents of and the early baby-boomers) - those who knew the deprivations of the depression years, I still felt them in the initial 10 or so years of my life remembering "dripping toast" as butter was not available and similar making do with what one had.... Luckily we had a fairly large block and my uncle was instrumental in setting up our tennis court (no fences - but the levelling, and "borrowing runners of the good grass" from the edges of some commercial lawn-tennis courts - I continued with that project)

I am not familiar with the term, "Greatest Generation"? is that a subset of "baby-boomers"? - - - Our family doctor (when I was a child) has been known to accept eggs, produce in lieu of cash payment... - - - Judging by the current economic figures, I sadly suggest that USA "Was", - - is not far off the mark....

[dskira]

Originally Posted by wardd

nothing has been passed yet and the insurance companys already tell you what you get, which doc you get it from and how much you get

and who is gong to listen to the people the insurance company about which the people have no voice or the gov which wants to get reelected

and dont forget the profit motive

united health care has posted record profits last quarter

It is a very good point. Very true.