My objections to Zero's new Health care plan.

[Jimbo1490]

Originally Posted by wardd

i can proclaim all the rights i want but unless others agree, im only whistling against the wind

do slaves have individual freedom?

cant prosperity flow from slavery?

rights dont exist unless its by common agreement

you can have all the rights to property you want but if i come steal it from you and you cant get it back from me, youll need societies help to exercise your ownership rights

This is the basic problem with your beloved socialism; you have to rob from one group to support some other group. You have to abolish property rights for all in order to establish socialism. You also have to destroy the right of an individual to profit from his own labors; in effect the laborer no longer even own his own labor! This is the essence of slavery; one man works while another receives the benefit from that work.

Before you take the (usual) idiot's position on this point, which would be to say that working for a wage is therefore slavery, try to conceive of the concept of a voluntary contract, whereby two persons agree to an exchange of labor for currency; that is not slavery.

Slavery is when the one doing the labor has NO CHOICE but to relinquish the benefit of his labor to another under the threat of violence, like fines and imprisonment.

They've already run into this legal dilemma in Canada, where doctors there asserted that if Canada is truly a free country (and it does profess that it is), then doctors own their own labor, and the government cannot assert exclusive ownership of the labor for the sole use through Health Canada because that would be slavery. The courts had to agree with the doctors. If we are ever in that position here, the courts will have to rule the same way and even more so, given the wording and intent of the 13th amendment to our constitution.




Jimbo

[wardd]

you have no damn rights unless i agree you do, if i dont agree and if i can take by force from you what i want then its mine, unless you call on the society to help you exercise your socially granted rights, period.


otherwise, if i can take it from you its mine and what the hell you going to do about it and dont tell me your going to get your gun because i may have a better gun and i may be better at using it

and what i just said has nothing to do with healthcare or socialism, just about your god given rights that i trample on

[Frosty]

[quote=wardd;291954]you have no damn rights unless i agree you do, if i dont agree and if i can take by force from you what i want then its mine, unless you call on the society to help you exercise your socially granted rights, period.


otherwise, if i can take it from you its mine and what the hell you going to do about it and dont tell me your going to get your gun because i may have a better gun and i may be better at using it, QUOTE]

Ok,-- I got it ,this was Doc Holiday in that move Tombestone when he had an argument at the gambling table.

Nothings changed much has it?

[wardd]

rights are a social compact, thats why we have a constitution and laws to ensure our rights and punish those that transgress them

my whole point being you have no rights but those agreed upon by the society you live in

different societies different concepts of rights

[Frosty]

I understand what you meant.

What I was meaning was nothing has changed, you still govern your country on 300 year old ideology. Amazing!!!
Consiquently your rhetoric reflects that in so much as "what you going to do about it, I got a bigger gun".

As you say In Us you feel you have no protection from your government so you carry a gun so you can protect yourself.

I understand how you got to this position but I have no idea of how you can get out of it.

A constitution of a little less than 300 years isnt helping except for those who want to stick in old times like the Taliban.

Why don't you use a new constitution relevant to the time you live in.

You are in a desperate state and a new start is whats needed. A whole new America.

I can not even imagine how that could happen.

[wardd]

the constitution as written is not the constitution we follow

thats why we keep reinterpreting it, to make it relevant to the needs of today

even those that wrote didnt follow what they wrote, how else can you explain slavery

today there seems to be a individual right to guns, when in fact at the time the constitution was written there were whole classes of people that couldnt own guns but try telling that to the gun nuts

the whole gist is that society defines what rights we have, not the individual

so if laws are passed granting health care to everybody then everybody has a right to health care, dont like it move to Zimbabwe im sure they dont have universal health care.

[TollyWally]

Wardd,
Perhaps in the interest of our common obsession, boats, we should bring this thread to a close and agree to disagree.

I understand that the cost of health insurance is a problem for almost everyone and you are willing to trade more government control for less liberty if there is a chance that somehow the rules of economics can be repealed.

Not all of your fellow Americans feel the same way you do and they have a stake in all of this too. Rather then them moving to Zimbabwe perhaps it would be more convenient if the small minority of legal American citizens without the means or desire to participate in our system as it now exists could move to Canada. Common culture, language, etc. much less upheival(sic) that way.

[Frosty]

Well thats the way to fix it, don't talk about it.

? I think I know now why your in such a mess, but lets not talk about it ,--it might go away.
Agree to disagree? you gotta be kidding.

Did you click onto this thread or did you accidentaly knock the key board with you elbow?

YOU reinterpret it (somewhere else). "the constitution as written is not the constitution we follow thats why we keep reinterpreting it." I'll keep the one as written in THIS country. YOU want the change, YOU move to Zimbabwe, ya arrogant prick.
"Why don't you use a new constitution relevant to the time you live in." -Indeed, maybe just model our country after a more advanced civilization like Thailand.
"...in fact at the time the constitution was written there were whole classes of people that couldnt own guns but try telling that to the gun nuts..." - Rights to bear arms were actually delineated prior to the ratifying of the Constitution. The practice actually was necessary and customary back to 12th century England. It was in state constitutions. It was included by Madison (one good thing he did), probably at the behest of Jefferson, who wanted the original amendments included in the text of the constitution, rather than adendums. It was to appease the anti-Federalists and actually allowed the country to survive its rocky start.
The reason we had a rocky start? Not enough guns.
The reason you won't get MY stuff?

Savage BAT/S, Barrett 50, FN PS-90, FNAR, FN Five Seven, Sako TRG .338 Lapua,
These are what are termed "black guns". They have an "arm" connotation or in a term you understand "war". They are not actual pics of my guns but I have these and more, hunting rifles, shotguns, sidearms, custom target rifles in calibers you don't know exist with ballistics that you don't understand, one full auto, and tens of thousands of rounds and tens of thousands of large and small rifle primers, brass, and reloading equipment. Of the above, the ones to which I am most attached; the TRG, because with it I can hit a dinner plate gong at 1 mile, and the Five Seven, because you people HATE this pistol like no other.

flag design worn well.................and without curves

[Frosty]

Mark --I have just deducted points from you for insulting not only me but others. Your posts are pointless and full of anger that makes you spout rubbish. Grow up or go away.

Now then, I did not say your should follow others constitution did I.

One for Frosty

Angry lately, yes, but I'M not willing to just fly to a hole like Thailand and give up on my country.
"Why don't you use a new constitution relevant to the time you live in." - I'm sorry but you have lost your mind.

[Frosty]

Your mixing my posts up with others I did not mention Zimbabe.

You should fly to Thailand you will love it there. You went for a holiday.

Im sorry you did'nt find the sex deviation and depravity that you were looking for.

YOU have guns like that? What with your problem? Your a scary guy. You realy do need a new constitution if people like you can own guns.

Why don't you just go and shoot everybody, You know you want to.

I don't think Ille talk to you again.

The OTHER idiot mentioned Zimbabwe. Dock me some more points...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Jimbo1490

This is the basic problem with your beloved socialism; you have to rob from one group to support some other group.

Isn't that just the same with health insurances? Everybody having to pay their share of the costs and someone staying healthy until drops death after a stroke is robbed.. Not to mention how the private physicians rob with astonomical fees.. Anyway nothing wrong being wealthy, but becoming a millionaire just practicing medicine

[wardd]

are pics of guns supposed to be intimidating?

in a democracy you don't get to pick and chose which laws you want to obey, thats called anarchy and you'd need those guns

the constitution as written allowed 3/5 ths of a person, are you sure you want that constitution?

I've been watching the townhall disrupters on tv, you know those against government controlled health care, and it would seem that better than 50% are on Medicare , go figure

most dont seem to realize that public health care was the norm for most of human history, you got sick/injured and everybody chipped in on helping but now we're way too civilized for that nonsense