Look at What Happens to Peaceful Protesters in the States

[CatBuilder]

Wow, excellent post.

What really got me is that these women were complying. They were behind the orange crowd control barrier and acting very docile, while expressing their views (likely telling the cops to stop hitting the other protester).

They got maced while in compliance. That's where something is terribly wrong.

[DGreenwood]

Originally Posted by Angélique

Yes, please look carefully . . . . .

The guy getting physical with the cops is outside the netting between the top left and the top center of the scene. From 9 till 18 sec you see everybody watching in that direction because that's where the action is at that moment....

Then..., on the opposite side of the scene..., the right bottom side of the vid......

At 19 sec, a white male cop in a white shirt and flat dark cap is spraying the women directly in the face. He's mostly out of sight but on the right side of the vid from 19 till 21 sec you see his right hand with the spray.

Attachment 61686
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Screenshot at 20 sec of the vid, the red arrow marks his right hand with the spray.


Attachment 61687
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Here at 21 sec you see him spraying directly to the heads of the women, not anywhere near the guy who's making trouble.


Attachment 61688
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At 25 sec of the vid you see him walking away with the spray still in his right hand, leaving the women and his buddies with the damage, he must be a real bag of sh¡t..!!

They better make sure he regrets it . . . . . . so it won't happen again . . . . . . of the streets with that guy . . . . . . . and if the city of NY has to pay the women..., they should recover it from him..!!

Cheers,
Angel

Look again. Yes there is an incident taking place outside the fence but you can see the dude in the black shirt near the women inside the barrier does something to the blueshirt cop (at about 15 seconds) and the whiteshirt cop sees it. That's where he decided to carelessly cut loose with the mace.

[hoytedow]

This is why you must study every detail before rashly deciding who is at fault. There are too many variables from my perspective to point the finger of blame in either direction.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

Look again. Yes there is an incident taking place outside the fence but you can see the dude in the black shirt near the women inside the barrier does something to the blueshirt cop (at about 15 seconds) and the whiteshirt cop sees it. That's where he decided to carelessly cut loose with the mace.

That's how I see it. Those peaceful protesters were not victims of cruel cops but victims of other protesters who were turning violent and forcing the cops to react.

A cynical person (such as me, for example) might suggest that this is exactly what the violent protestors had in mind: force the cops to react and hope that some peaceful protestors or bystanders got hurt so they could get a video on the net showing what bad people those cops are.

Of course the mace-spraying cop seems to be displaying bad judgment as well as bad aim and an investigation is definitely in order, but this does not look like a genuine example of cop brutality like that incident in California.

[CatBuilder]

I guess people just see whatever they want to see when viewing the video. Interesting phenomenon of psychology at work.

There is no getting around the fact those few women in the orange net on the sidewalk were complying with the officers' instructions and were maced anyway though. That is the point here, not whatever is going on in other parts of the block or in the street.

Seems people are just straining and grasping at any straw they can to try to say the cops were right to mace a group of women who were complying with them by staying in the orange corral.

This is what's wrong with our US politics right now. People don't look at the facts or the main point. They try to bend the data (or video) to support some pre-conceived political notion they have before even looking at it.

This type of emotional processing of data is very confusing to logical, fact based decision makers.

[DGreenwood]

Yup ....In a situation like that, no matter the outcome, a lot of people are going to be unhappy with it. It struck me the cop did a poor job but I would not like to have been making the calls. Maybe he was experienced enough that he foresaw a potential escalation in progress and brought it to a stop with a few burned eyes, before it got ugly for everyone. If the guy in the black shirt tried for something on the cops belt, macing was a kind thing to do. They are trained to mete out much harsher responses in that circumstance.

[Lister]

Originally Posted by lewisboats

And what pray tell does this have to do with anything even remotely boat? Please leave this to the forums that cater to it. It really has no place here. This forum is turning into the bilge at Woodenboat and I think one such stinking place is really more than enough.

Only one thing I agree with you but with a little more precision:
On the woodenboat forum the whole forum is like a dirty stinky sewer.
Beside that you are wrong. It is the place.
Peace, love and Rock and Roll.
Lister

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Seems people are just straining and grasping at any straw they can to try to say the cops were right to mace a group of women who were complying with them by staying in the orange corral.

No one said that the cops were right to mace that group of women and shame on you for suggesting that we did. What a couple of people have suggested is that it was a case of police bungling rather than police brutality.

I note that you have ignored the arguments instead of answering them. But if anyone is just seeing what he wants to see, I'd suggest it is the person who assumes that's what everyone else is doing, not the people who carefully analyzed the clip to see what was actually going on.

[Boston]

I just ran across this and wow
all that can be said is wow
talk about living in a police state

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

Look again. Yes there is an incident taking place outside the fence but you can see the dude in the black shirt near the women inside the barrier does something to the blueshirt cop (at about 15 seconds) and the whiteshirt cop sees it. That's where he decided to carelessly cut loose with the mace.

I did, please do so too



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^ at 14 sec, the black shirt dude (blue arrow) is coming forward.



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^ at 15 sec, the black shirt dude, head forward shoulders backwards, seems to be shouting in the cop's (red arrow) ear.



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^ at 16 sec, there is mutual eye contact and it looks like they speak too.



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^ at 17 sec, both are turning away from each other.



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^ at 18 sec, both are further turning away from each other.

^ Spray Cop (sc) is visable on the right, he's not looking at the black shirt dude and the other red arrow officer, he's looking at the woman who has already her hand for her face, can't see his right hand but the hand for her face woman looks like the spraying already has begun. - - (added: it's also possible that the hand for her face and turning away in this stage was a reaction to Spray Cop with the mace spray canister at the ready she saw comming and she is doing so in fear and horror)



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^ at 19 sec, the black shirt dude and officer X are on even more distance from each other and both looking at the top left and top center of the scene where the action is at that moment. If there was anything going on between them, officer X wouldn't have let go his attention from him after the contact in sec 16. The black shirt dude is complying with the officers like everyone else within the fence.

^ From Spray Cop I still can't see his right hand but he is looking at the hand for her face woman in the right bottom corner of the fence and is definitely not looking at the black shirt dude. So the spraying has nothing to with the black shirt dude as Spray Cop has no attention for him. The hand for her face woman is turning further away from Spray Cop and she's looking worse like the spraying has continued. - - (added: it's also possible that the hand for her face and turning away in this stage was a reaction to Spray Cop with the mace spray canister at the ready she saw comming and she is doing so in fear and horror)



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^ at 20 sec, the spraying from very short distance directly at the women in the right bottom corner of the fence is full visable. We see the nose of the black shirt dude (bsd) at the other end of the scene...



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^ at 21 sec, the whole fence area has filled with mace and the black shirt dude gets his handkerchief...


There was just one cop who took the initiative to mace the fence area (starting in the calmest corner ) while everyone within the fence was in compliance, non of the other officers seems to be happy with that action.... but I wouldn't be suprised if they try to cover him up . . . .

Cheers,
Angel

[Dave Gudeman]

Angelique, the screen cap makes it look like he is aiming at the woman, but photos are notoriously deceptive at that kind of thing. Watching the actual video, it is clear that the stream of mace goes right at the black-shirt guy and that the woman with the hand over her face is not even directly hit. She may have gotten some unpleasant side-spray, though.

Your perception of what he was looking at as he walked over have the same problem with trying to figure out 3D details from a 2D image. Also your impression must be based entirely on what direction he is facing because I can't make out his eyes at all. He is just facing in the direction he is walking --which is the direction he has to go through the crowd to get to black-shirt guy.

Also as he is walking over, hand-on-face woman doesn't have her hand on her face because she has already been hit. No one else shows any signs of distress at that point, including the cop standing behind her who would have got some too. She is just expressing horror at the violence.

It's too bad that this happened, and I'd like to know what that cop thought he was doing shooting into a crowd to hit one guy, but it's pretty clear from the video that he wasn't targeting the women or his fellow cops, who also got some of the spray. In fact, he could hardly have hit the woman directly without also hitting the cop on the other side of her.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

That's how I see it. Those peaceful protesters were not victims of cruel cops but victims of other protesters who were turning violent and forcing the cops to react.

A cynical person (such as me, for example) might suggest that this is exactly what the violent protestors had in mind: force the cops to react and hope that some peaceful protestors or bystanders got hurt so they could get a video on the net showing what bad people those cops are.

Of course the mace-spraying cop seems to be displaying bad judgment as well as bad aim and an investigation is definitely in order, but this does not look like a genuine example of cop brutality like that incident in California.

Sorry... I don't buy it. No one "forced" that jerk to spray mace in the faces of those women behind the barrier, instead of going after the actual troublemakers. No one put a gun in the guy's back, nor is he being overwhelmed by protesters in a fast-moving incident without a chance to sort them out.

What you just said sounds a whole lot like you're trying to make the perp the victim, and the actual victims irrelevant.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Sorry... I don't buy it. No one "forced" that jerk to spray mace in the faces of those women behind the barrier, instead of going after the actual troublemakers. No one put a gun in the guy's back, nor is he being overwhelmed by protesters in a fast-moving incident without a chance to sort them out.

First of all, he didn't target the women. I watched it twenty times and the spray is clearly going at the guy. From the reactions of the women, it's clear that they got some too, as did several of the cops, but they weren't the targets.

Also, after Angelique's analysis, I no longer suspect that the black-shirt guy deliberately provoked a violent reaction because as she points out, he did walk away from the cop after they had words. In fact, seeing that black-shirt guy walked away from the confrontation and that he was sprayed from so far away, I'm inclined to think that the cop is in real trouble. It's hard to think of any explanation that would justify the cop's action.

What you just said sounds a whole lot like you're trying to make the perp the victim, and the actual victims irrelevant.

Where was I trying to make the perp the victim? Was it where I said, "Of course the mace-spraying cop seems to be displaying bad judgment as well as bad aim and an investigation is definitely in order"? Do *you* usually call for investigations of people that you are calling victims?

Seriously, you people need to get a grip. Expressing doubt about your version of events does not mean that I agree with your version of events and I approve of what happened; it means that I doubt that things happened the way that you think they happened. It should not be that hard to tell the difference between these two things.

If, as the title of this thread implies,

(A) a group of cops deliberately maced a group of peaceful protesters, that would be a really, really bad thing. It is serious abuse of power by the government.

also,

(B) If one cop among a group maces a protestor that pissed him off, and other people get hit by the spray, that's also a bad thing, but it's not in the same category as (A). It's just assault by a guy who happens to be a cop.

and finally,

(C) If some innocent people get maced while the cops are using mace properly in carrying out their duties, that is also bad, but it's not in the same category of (A) or (B). It's just an accident.

Just because I am saying that what happened is (B) or (C) (and now I think it was (B)), that does not mean that I am defending the actions of cops who committed (A) --it means that I don't think any cops committed (A).

This is not that hard of a concept to understand. I don't know why I should have to explain it.

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

Angelique, the screen cap makes it look like he is aiming at the woman, but photos are notoriously deceptive at that kind of thing. Watching the actual video, it is clear that the stream of mace goes right at the black-shirt guy ....

Your perception of what he was looking at as he walked over have the same problem with trying to figure out 3D details from a 2D image. ....

Oh yes..., he aimed at something else and completely missed, well that's the most unbelievable explaination someone ever could come up with...

After watching the video I studied the stills, much more than posted here, and then studied the video again and again...

This makes me disagree with the stream of mace going right to the black shirt dude. It was not even aimed at him... and also there was no reason to mace him either as I posted above.

Same disagreement goes for the other excuses for this behavior.

You seem to think that from all those officers not one could have gone out of control and just sprayed because of that, the video shows clear just that happened, and he should called to account for it.

The video posted by Murdomack in post #11 and the ones I posted in post #20, shows that unnecessary and excessive violence by police is more prevalent, and not only in the U.S. as the thread title suggests . . .

When such things occurs it should be addressed by the law, just that...

Cheers,
Angel

PS

See the false police excuses in the second vid in post #20, the judge didn't buy it . . . .

Please post a court ruling to this case when it becomes available . . . .

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

First of all, he didn't target the women. I watched it twenty times and the spray is clearly going at the guy. From the reactions of the women, it's clear that they got some too, as did several of the cops, but they weren't the targets.

Also, after Veronique's analysis, I no longer suspect that the black-shirt guy deliberately provoked a violent reaction because as she points out, he did walk away from the cop after they had words. In fact, seeing that black-shirt guy walked away from the confrontation and that he was sprayed from so far away, I'm inclined to think that the cop is in real trouble. It's hard to think of any explanation that would justify the cop's action.



Where was I trying to make the perp the victim? Was it where I said, "Of course the mace-spraying cop seems to be displaying bad judgment as well as bad aim and an investigation is definitely in order"? Do *you* usually call for investigations of people that you are calling victims?

Seriously, you people need to get a grip. Expressing doubt about your version of events does not mean that I agree with your version of events and I approve of what happened; it means that I doubt that things happened the way that you think they happened. It should not be that hard to tell the difference between these two things.

If, as the title of this thread implies,

(A) a group of cops deliberately maced a group of peaceful protesters, that would be a really, really bad thing. It is serious abuse of power by the government.

also,

(B) If one cop among a group maces a protestor that pissed him off, and other people get hit by the spray, that's also a bad thing, but it's not in the same category as (A). It's just assault by a guy who happens to be a cop.

and finally,

(C) If some innocent people get maced while the cops are using mace properly in carrying out their duties, that is also bad, but it's not in the same category of (A) or (B). It's just an accident.

Just because I am saying that what happened is (B) or (C) (and now I think it was (B)), that does not mean that I am defending the actions of cops who committed (A) --it means that I don't think any cops committed (A).

This is not that hard of a concept to understand. I don't know why I should have to explain it.

I'd say it's pretty damned obvious that the one cop committed (A). I'm not trying to smear all the others with his actions, but I repeat: you're trying to make him the victim, when you say he was forced into what he did by trouble-making protesters. Instead, it looks to me like he was just P.O'd at the guy in the black shirt, and took it out on the women because that dude was out of reach. An emotional, irrational and stupid decision -- but hardly a 'forced' one.