Jap vs. Japanese offensive or common abbreviation (split from Copied Hull thread)

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by RHP

and all the jap motorbike manufacturers 30 years ago.

What, exactly, does "jap" mean... RHP?

Is it anything like Chink, Nip, Buddhahead, Slope, Gook, Nigger, Coon, Spear Chucker, etc.?... or any other possible denegrating slang terms for that which you do not understand.

If it is, could you please not use the "Nip" reference for products and people originating in the Japanese nation?

You, of course, can think anything you want in private, but I would suggest that this is not going to get it here with our International audience of contributors.

I do get that you are trying to make a point regarding possible copycat design issues from thirty years ago in the motorcycle trade... even though I do not agree with the position.

I was a motorcycle photographer/journalist for 7 years back then and the overwhelming majority of products produced from the Japanese manufacturers were original and ultimately, so dominant, that they completely overwhelmed the nearly stagnant American, as well as, British makers who had controlled the US and International markets for some goodly time.

I'd love to continue the discourse with you on this level, but because this is a boat design forum, I'd ask that you write me, off list, to continue the discussion. You can send me an email by clicking on my name above and selecting the appropriate option.

Regards,

Chris O

[kerosene]

not only the "jap" BUT Honda led the innovation on motorbikes for years. Honda cb750 (introduced 1969) was truly revolutionary. First mass produced (if any) motorbike with 4 cylinder engine, 1st production bike with disc brakes. In 70s honda's engineering was ahead of any european or american manufacturers - their dohc engines were bullet proof.

Later yamaha's XS 2-cylinder engines proved out to be totally rock solid too.

I have a 1997 dual sport honda 650 - the engine is practicaly same as early 80s XL600 and not much different than the 70s single sylinder models - these bikes have been driven around the world - very well designed machines. And one would be hard pressed to find a clear source for inspiration that honda copied to the engine.

Same with Honda's 50-90cc (nowadays up to 125cc) models. These days the same engine is being liscnsed to chinese manufacturers but before that they have been powering small bikes around the world since late 60s. (ct70, z50, xr50, crf50, madass). Rock solid machine. Funnily enough Harley tried to create competitors for Honda's popular minbikes and scooters in the 70s...

[RHP]

Chris, are you insane?

[RHP]

Kerosene, the pre-war jap V twin engine was a superb piece of engineering however an engine supplier was always going to struggle as the bike manufacturers gained financial strength and designed their own.

Agree the Honda CB750 was revolutionary but it was quickly overshadowed by the Z900 (and 650), then the GS1000 had the first frame that handled. I still have a 1979 CBXz1000 six cylinder which I bought 15 years ago and another period beast, a 1982 Laverda Jota 1000. Even the CBX was quickly replaced by the CB900.... such is progress.

The late seventies and early 80's was a golden era for bikes because you can add to the above the 1977 BMW R100RS, Ducati MHR, Kawasaki Z1 and Eddie Lawson Replica, Yamaha LC's, Guzzi Le Mans, Bimota, Harris, Moto Martin etc.. the list could go on and on - every manufacturer produced a bike that would stand the test of time - all classics today!!

By the way, the new Yamaha Tenere or the BMW F800GS? Hhhhmmmm.....

[Knut Sand]

Chris, I don't think anything racial were meant by "jap" I could've used it as an abbreviation for "Japanese", and no harm intended. quite contrary.. .

I think we can make some height for the fact that something may get lost in the translation...

On the other hand, I think it was the Suzuki 750 "Waterbus" that made the mark; the japs are coming, and they're doing better, faster, more reliable, beyond any wild dream.

RHP; And to compare Yamaha Tenere ws BMW F800GS..?
I think you're trying to state that the Yamaha is trying to copy the BMW. Weeell looking at the pictures, I suddenly missed the boxer engine... In my opinion then; It's BMW closing into the Tenere. (If you had pulled out the F650GS, I might agree, but you didn't ).

But both these do not campare to the original, The great mother bike of all offroad motorbikes; The African Twin, made by Honda (even if I have one that don't stop me from beiing 100% objective on that matter).

[Chris Ostlind]

So Knut...

Does Fish-Eater, Mountain Monkey, Noogin, Norbagge, Rjeindeer-Fjucker and Sea Jew work for you as a Norwegian....?

Nothing personal, you understand? Just using the available language.

What I'm getting at is that the term, Jap, is derogatory on its best day. It is unnecessary and ultimately, shows racial disrespect. RHP is going out of his way to demonstrate that bit of uniqueness in his personality and there's no place for it on these pages.

Geez, Knut, he didn't even attempt to disguise the foolishness with anything even close to a comedic tone, much less come back with a civil recognition of the position. For a few simple keystrokes extra, he could have just as easily typed "Japanese" instead.

I came from a neighborhood in which indulgent word useage, such as Jap, Nigger, Beaner, Slope, etc., would get you a serious butt kicking, so nobody used it unless they were looking for same. Now, maybe the guys on this forum think its OK to do that kind of thing when they feel they've run out of options for descriptives, but I don't.

Indulge as you may, but I think its cheesy racial arrogance.

Now, can we please put this back on topic?

[RHP]

I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you are talking about and object to you attacking my character in this way.

Please do not persist, your assumption is TOTALLY incorrect and is completely uncalled for.


Yours asking nicely...........

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by RHP

and all the jap motorbike manufacturers 30 years ago.

That post above is what started this interchange. The use of the word Jap for a product originating in Japan.

Unfortunately, your reference is distinctly distasteful to many millions of people worldwide.

When you say you have no idea as to what I am indicating and then go on to ask that I not insult you and your character, I'm kinda wondering which one of those you'd like me to honor.

If you have no idea, then how can it be insulting? Seems like you'd simply be walking around in a fog and then BAM you get a notion that you are insulted; right out of the blue?

Second, could it be more ironic that now YOU are insulted? When it was you, to begin with, who used the term JAP?

Just simply amazing.

Just a little history for you, RHP. Way back before World War II, the term Jap had a mild acceptance as a term for people of Japanese origin; much like a Brit is from Britain. Then unflrtunately, WWII took place and the US war machine of propaganda took over to mobilize the citizens and their mindset. In that rush to beat the Japanese nation in war, the term Jap took on a wholly new reference; one that was very distinctly derogatory in nature. The use of "Jap" virtually dripped with anger and hate.

As a result of that usage and hateful methodology, the term spread around the world. Now, unless you know the folks extremely well, you'd be advised to not refer to anyone of Japanese heritage as a Jap, unless you'd like to be engaged in a serious slamfest.

I'm of the opinion that there's little room in any conversation for a derogatory term to be used if folks are being civil to one another. It was mentioned to you, twice, in above postings that the term is decidedly out of bounds, whether you previously knew that or not. A prudent person would read that and recognize their error and simply offer an apology, not meaning to offend.

Instead, we get this comeback "...and (I) object to you attacking my character in this way."

Since you indicate that you live in Brazil, are you aware of any slang derogatory terms in that country that would get a person into an immediate and nasty dust-up if they were to use them in a conversation? Don't play coy, that kind of thing exists everywhere and you know what I'm talking about.

So, here's the question... You are out for the evening in a mixed racial and social environment (much like this forum) and you drop one of these choice terms, out loud, in front of a bunch of people. Take a moment and let us know just what might ensue, should you choose to use a mean spirited, racial term in a public place, as described.

Running and calling frantically for help seem to be reasonable responses.

It's that simple.

Now, once again.... can we get back to discussing boats? Please

[RHP]

You're way too clever for me.

Have a happy life.

[Landlubber]

RHP, we use the work Jap still today, it is simply Japanese, certainly never heard of anyone beong insulted by it here in Aussie land, maybe next Aussie will be upsetting some people, I think Chris has way over reacted...he does seem a sensitive soul.

How about the Kawasaki WISA, and exact copt of the BSA A10.......I think that was your point.
Certainly the Jap bikes were radical when they applied their own inventiveness, I worked in bikes in the 70's, a truely great time to be playing with them. We were Honda, BMW and Triumph agents, so am very familiar with all those types.

When we were jids, it was Jap Junk.....anything made in Japan then was, like China today, simply junk, then along came the yanks and the end of the war and the products improved with age. Today of course, Jap made goods are the highest in the world and respected as such by almost anyone that is involved in engineering or electronics....they are truely remarkable goods.

In about 1978, Suzuki engineers drilled a hole through a human hair, it was advertised in one of their "news letters" that we all recieved as part of the trade associations then. Honda asked them to let them see the drill, it was sent to them and returned with a hole drilled through the centre. How they do this I do not know, but there is no way any Brit bike maker could have even dreamed of doing such a thing........

Ya got ta luv 'em.

[Knut Sand]

Landlubber: careful... you used the "J" word 3 times in your last post, sombody is out there to gently and mildly correct our linguistic misbehaviour.

Afrhydro: "but legally you only have to change 10 % of any hull and its yours"
Probably true, but clearly not ethical (IMNSHO). To have the view of a hull (at the back of your head), a few rough measures and from there on make your own molds with your own alterations in it; that is inspiration,
To use an existing hull, and add height, change the deck. Doesnt sound fair to me. Somebody should ask for calculations or documented (stability) tests for that "design"....

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Knut Sand

Afrhydro: "but legally you only have to change 10 % of any hull and its yours"
Probably true, but clearly not ethical (IMNSHO).
...To use an existing hull, and add height, change the deck. Doesnt sound fair to me. Somebody should ask for calculations or documented (stability) tests for that "design"....

Careful, Afrhydro, somebody on this thread will always be there to gently remind you of your ethical responsibilities as they apply to other human beings and their work. That's especially true if it impinges on their, or more globally well-recognized, sensibilities. You can step on a lot of toes with that kind of attitude.

Make up your mind, Knut.

[DanishBagger]

Chris, for fucks sake. You have crossed the line from PC to language-nazi. Relax a little.

"jap" is as insulting as "den" or "dane" is to a danish bloke. And your ridiculous logic leap that it's akin to calling a norwegian bloke for

Does Fish-Eater, Mountain Monkey, Noogin, Norbagge, Rjeindeer-Fjucker and Sea Jew work for you as a Norwegian....?

is, well, ridiculous.

It's akin to calling a norwegian a "norse", "nor" and that sort. In the post I have merely quoted a slight bit, you're simply reading things into it that aren't there.
Next, you'll tell the french that it's racial to use the word "negra" when they talk about _black_ boats.

[Chris Ostlind]

Wouldn't dream of it DB, but here's an interesting thread. I tossed this up yesterday afternoon on the WoodenBoat Forum "Bilge" section to get a direct feel for how some other, very weel read and traveled, boating folks from around the world feel about the term "Jap".

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80272

Way more often than not, the answer is that the use of "Jap", in written, as well as spoken language, is offensive.

So, here's my question to you, since you apparently live in Denmark, where interpersonal civility is a hallmark of the culture... why would you go out of your way to actively insult someone when you know that the use of a particular term is offensive to them?

Is that how you wish to define yourself and your public persona?

Of course, you can be like RHP and weenie-out on the question before you, but I'd really like to hear your response... you graciously civil guy from Denmark.

The International boating community is watching, so now's your chance to show us all just what might be the civil fabric of your person. Are you a man of grace and kindness, or are you a knuckle dragging cretin who only wishes to push his way around at the expense of others?

We can get to any potential derogatory terms you may have for the "Foreign People" you are currently struggling with in Denmark at a later time... if you have any quaint descriptives for them.

[DanishBagger]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Wouldn't dream of it DB, but here's an interesting thread. I tossed this up yesterday afternoon on the WoodenBoat Forum "Bilge" section to get a direct feel for how some other, very weel read and traveled, boating folks from around the world feel about the term "Jap".

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80272

Way more often than not, the answer is that the use of "Jap", in written, as well as spoken language, is offensive.

First of all, noone writes "jap", "japanese", "american", "danish", "dane, "norse", "norwegian" or any other nationality with a capital letter. It shows where you're coming from - so PC it hurts and even spills into your writing (litteraly). You linking to a woodenboatforum-thread (of all things, sigh!) doesn't really mean anything. It's not akin to calling a norwegian for any of the things you so want it to be akin to.

So, here's my question to you, since you apparently live in Denmark, where interpersonal civility is a hallmark of the culture...

You obviously aren't the well-traveled person you make yourself out to be. The "hallmark" of our culture is to be critical of authorities, to be out-right and frank, so stuff your sarcasm were it belongs.

why would you go out of your way to actively insult someone when you know that the use of a particular term is offensive to them?

First of all, you're somehow thinking you're basing this on the above premise, which, is a far-fetched logical leap. Secondly, I do not "go out of my way" to "actively insult someone when you know that the use of a particular term is offensive to them". That is a pure strawman argument if I ever saw one. Look it up, if you need to.

YOU're the one being offended on the behalf of others, and your "proof": A link to a woodenboat-thread. Excellent job.

Is that how you wish to define yourself and your public persona?

Ah, yes, there's nothing like logical fallacies coming from someone who acts as a language-nazi. The only other people I know who do that to the extent you do are creationists and other sects. Your very premise is a strawman, and to top it off, you add yet another.

Of course, you can be like RHP and weenie-out on the question before you, but I'd really like to hear your response... you graciously civil guy from Denmark.

I never pretended to be a "graciously civil guy from Denmark". Once again, you're sarcasm is ill-spent, when it's coming from someone who feels it's in his place to judge people on what he chooses to read into what others are writing.

The International boating community is watching, so now's your chance to show us all just what might be the civil fabric of your person.

Oh, swell, yet another strawman argument from you. I take it that whatever I say, you will feel it's somehow proves whatever it is your agenda is - what with all these strawman. Reality apparently doesn't bite on you.

Are you a man of grace and kindness, or are you a knuckle dragging cretin who only wishes to push his way around at the expense of others?

Well, at least I'm not a knuckle dragging creting, pretending to be so "graceful" and "kind" that I find it prudent to act like a dictator.

We can get to any potential derogatory terms you may have for the "Foreign People" you are currently struggling with in Denmark at a later time... if you have any quaint descriptives for them.

Ah, yes, and with that you have shown your true colours. You basically called me a racist in your own twisted way. It's good to know you're such an extreme fundamentalist that you will not shy away from anything in order to "prove" yourself.

I cannot believe anyone can get this muc out of "jap motorcycle" posted on a forum. Sheesh. Someone needs to go grow up and go travel.