Israel

[watchkeeper]

I'll admit I'm probably politically niave but the ravings of Israel as a smitter being smitten by another using Israel's own tatics then screaming foul is just plain BS. Then we have added insult when B Obama comes out screaming 'foul play' by Iran who apparently decided on playing tick for tack.

While I'm not an advocate of the current crop of looney toon fundamentalists running the country I ask are they really any more dangerous to the international community than Israel or US. I don't recall them invading foreign lands in modern history unlike US or Israel.

We seem to have a situation where one nation claims to represent all that is good, righteous and as upholders of the real religion, a true and transparent democracy that only they and those they approve of can be trusted with grown up toys (read Nukes).

It seems to me it all somehow echos a time about a 1000yrs back when of a bunch of mad/misguided Poms/French/Germans wearing forged iron underwear rode off to the East to force feed their doctine over anothers in the name of (their) righteousness.

[Doug Lord]

This is a time for The Simplifyers-they take complex problems and intricate interelationships and simplify them for the rest of us. I'm sure they do it to save us all time in wading thru all the facts on our own. Funny though, The Simplifyers might only be kidding-they might be pushing their own agenda and rather than trying to help the rest of us they might be trying to obfuscate the issues so that an already complex situation becomes even more so in some peoples eyes.
I could be wrong, though, and just be looking at things simplistically.....

[michael pierzga]

The problem with that part of the world is that its impossible to SIMPLIFY anything. Each country has its own truths carved in stone. Lets hope the US stands clear of the mess.

[watchkeeper]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

This is a time for The Simplifyers-they take complex problems and intricate interelationships and simplify them for the rest of us. I'm sure they do it to save us all time in wading thru all the facts on our own. Funny though, The Simplifyers might only be kidding-they might be pushing their own agenda and rather than trying to help the rest of us they might be trying to obfuscate the issues so that an already complex situation becomes even more so in some peoples eyes.
I could be wrong, though, and just be looking at things simplistically.....

Hi Doug,

Have you ever considered that those who are supposed to manage on our behalf seem to make it much more complex than reqd, plus a career, money and opportunity out of managing these 'complex' issues on our belf.i.e. invading a country because it had weapons of mass destruction....somewhere.

I lived and worked in the Middle East, really seriously disliked it because of all the BS it represents but its their BS and its really just that simple

[PAR]

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

I'll admit I'm probably politically niave . . .

Absolutely, so judging by your post.

[WestVanHan]

For starters "watchtower", beware the islamist propaganda and revisionist history.

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

I'll admit I'm probably politically niave but the ravings of Israel as a smitter being smitten by another using Israel's own tatics then screaming foul is just plain BS. Then we have added insult when B Obama comes out screaming 'foul play' by Iran who apparently decided on playing tick for tack.

Yes,and saying that Judaism and ergo Christianity should be destroyed all the while developing nuclear "toys" is just a misunderstanding,right?

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

While I'm not an advocate of the current crop of looney toon fundamentalists running the country I ask are they really any more dangerous to the international community than Israel or US. I don't recall them invading foreign lands in modern history unlike US or Israel.

Israel? Talking about Lebanon '82,to get rid of Arafat? Good for them.
BTW Arafats dear uncle was Hitler's Mufti- his main advisor on the Holocaust,and continual researcher for faster ways to exterminate the Jews.

Or are you talking about the lands they got when they repelled invaders? Then gave it back...only to take it back when missiles were launched form it.

Ya think they should give back Golan so the rockets can rain down?

I suppose you will quote revisionist " stolen Arab lands" propaganda when it never has been Arab land,and Israel has been there for 3000 years.

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

We seem to have a situation where one nation claims to represent all that is good, righteous and as upholders of the real religion.

Indeed:
“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,”

“no doubt the new wave [of attacks] in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot from the face of the Islamic world.”

Yet,Sunnis make up 9% of Iran :
"Sunni Muslims in Tehran have been banned from congregating at prayers marking the end of Ramadan.
Iran, a Shia country, ordered its Sunni minority not to hold separate prayers in Tehran for Eid al-Fitr, the Muslim festival that brings the month of fasting to an end. They were instead asked to have a Shia imam leading their prayers – something that is against their religious beliefs."

I think that says all.And you're trying to tell me they would accept another religion to exist,when they can't even stand each other??

Originally Posted by watchkeeper

It seems to me it all somehow echos a time about a 1000yrs back when of a bunch of mad/misguided Poms/French/Germans wearing forged iron underwear rode off to the East to force feed their doctine over anothers in the name of (their) righteousness.

Yet more revisionists history..did you even know the reason they went there was to free the area from repressive islamic invaders?

Or is just a truth that doesn't fit your ideals?

[Boston]

Something tells me if we don't get a handle on Iran's acquiring of a nuclear weapon, then its not long until we see a nuclear war in the region. Not that I'm buying into the propaganda machine, but Iran's made its intentions pretty clear. And unfortunately the US has cried wolf enough that some folks are likely to miss the obvious. If Iran gets the bomb, they'll use it.

there's a great documentary just out about the count down to Iran. Prevailing thought is someone is going to have to go in and destroy there nuclear capability on the ground. Most likely this spring. I'm all for it.

Go in, take out there bomb making ability, get out, repeat.

[michael pierzga]

Iran has been treated as an international pariah state for decades. Put a dog in a cage, taunt it and you create a mad dog. Iran is caged.

Very difficult to figure out how to liberate Iran from it Pariah status

[Boston]

there's been mistakes made on all sides, but that doesn't mean I'd feel real comfortable if they have a bomb.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by WestVanHan

For starters "watchtower", beware the islamist propaganda and revisionist history.

Better still, beware the propaganda and revisionism from them, and anyone else!

Remember that the US financed (if not actually supplied) chemical weapons
and other equipment to Iraq to use on Iran. A war (or something just short of
a war) has been going on in that region for many years. There are others too,
apart from the US, who have been involved with one side or another.

I doubt that we will know much of the truth until after classified documents
are released in 30 or 50 years from now, if at all.

[michael pierzga]

Another regional issue that involves oil and foreign power meddling..
Recently I listened to an interview with John McCain. Scary. The same old belicious , America is a force for good , saber rattling nonsense. Never did he say...Mistakes were made, time to figure out how to correct them .

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by michael pierzga

Another regional issue that involves oil and foreign power meddling..
Recently I listened to an interview with John McCain. Scary. The same old belicious , America is a force for good , saber rattling nonsense. Never did he say...Mistakes were made, time to figure out how to correct them .

What is disgusting is that it won't matter if the majority of the US people
are opposed to going to war. Politicians and the military act independently of
the wishes of the majority in the US, Iran, and most other countries.
They are all immoral filth.

[michael pierzga]

The media will portrait the Iranians as baby eating monsters and the public will go along. I find it odd that the true radicals..the baby eating monsters... are the Saudis. Must be the oil

[Boston]

I'm not so sure the issue isn't much more complex than basic religious intolerance, taken to extremes. That and a whole series of incredibly bad foriegn policy moves by the US and others outside the region. Still doesn't mean I'd like to see anyone over there have a bomb. If Israel has one, at least there not randomly using it. But if Iran or a few of the other more volatile nations there had one I'd be pretty concerned.

I'd say the propaganda machine is off and running and there's pretty much only one possible outcome. Iran is about to be next. The US has very conveniently bugged out of Iraq and now has the reserve capability to direct those forces at Iran. Its pretty obvious what there doing.

The whole thing is a mess and its only going to get messier. I'm just curious as to what happens after they hit the nuclear sites ( assuming there are nuclear sites ) If the Iranians will retaliate. Or if the rest of there capabilities will be hit at the same time. Which escalates the issues.

Israel is very good at gaining air superiority so it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't gain it this time as well, while they have the chance. If its the US that takes the ball then I'd think we were less concerned about gaining a longer term air superiority and just go after SAM systems and fly cover for the ground team. Either way its not easy to deal with bunkers deeper than 100'. So Ground forces are going to have to play a significant role in the attack.

Speaking of which we might as well just go with the notion that an attack is immanent given that we've all seen this game played out so many times in recent history. I think the question isn't if but when. After that its "how bad is it going to be" another Iraq ? or a quick in and out ? I'd think they've learned there lesson about Vietnam and Iraq style fiasco's.

Regional stability will best be maintained with an US attack. That way the Israeli's won't have to take the brunt of Arab anger. That and if you look at the most likely flight paths available to Israel they're pretty much relegated to overfly someones territory other than Iran's. a situation that's not going to sit well with the Arab countries involved. Whereas the US has bases from which its planes could fly, something like 45 bases actually completely surrounding Iran. Deal is I think this will be a US operation, not a Israeli one.

If I were Israel, I'd rather see the US take this one
If I were any other country in the region, I'd rather see the US take this one
If I were Iran I'd rather Israel attack, cause it plays right into the "common" enemy theme

So I can imagine that Israel is telling the US it had better do something fast, and so we get the propaganda campaign gearing up in the media.

Its basic politics
the truth is between the lines.

[michael pierzga]

Stay out of the situation..Let them blow themselves up. Other than oil the US has no interest in the region. Once the mushroom cloud subsides, the oil will flow again.