Israel

So now we all burn "slightly" radio active fuel in our cars, oh that will help the environment

The issues are bigger than just let them blow each other off the map. The MAD doctrine only works with societies that hold life sacred. The Arabs seem to have one edge over us militarily. They hold death sacred. Its a fundamental difference that favors the most radical. If not for our technological edge they'd have won long ago.

Last thing we want is for some big disaster to occur over there. The Arab spring will keep them busy for long enough for us to run out of oil. At which point there relevance drops back to where it was not so long ago.

 

1000 years ago the knights rode east in reaction to the destruction of Christians by the Moslems. Look at the books of the New Testament and you will see that most of the cities mentioned were overtaken by the Arabs and Turks under Islam. Vlad Tepes was the result of Eastern adventurism.

 

Preaching Christianity is as dumb as Muslims and big Zuzu up the mountain --please get a life.

The technology is there. we can all buy electric but Oh Oh I don't like them, I have to plug it in.

Buy Electric and stick the finger up the Arabs, we can do this tomorrow.

But I have a feeling Im waisting more time than Hoyt on that one.

But --just think woudnt that be great,--oh we dont want any more oil thank you , not now or ever again.

I wish oh how I wish I could see the day the Arabs dry up.

 

Iran will not develop an atomic weapon, nor a delivery device, both of which, currently are out of their grasp. With only a few countries world wide willing to have economic and political ties, they'll continue to wither. Even if their enrichment program goes into full swing, a delivery device is a year or two away.

Iran has recently stepped up it's shouting about enrichment programs, not because it actually has, but because they get "paid" to shut up. North Korea has used this exact tactic, to weather economic difficulties. Both counties have been paid to slow or halt their atomic programs and at times they've complied. This extortion is simply a way of staving off the inevitable strike against their atomic infrastructure. They well know, they will not see it coming or be able to stop it.

This has gone on repeatedly in recent decades with several countries. Trust me, the moment either county develops a dependable device or delivery vehicle, a small force of well trained attack aircraft, will knock them back to square one again. They know this, which is why we are hearing the posturing from all sides now. Iran's Russian built enrichment process will eventually cause a strike. To ratchet up the cost, they threaten to blockade the straight. You don't think their scientists are just dieing from old age and hackers targeting their infrastructure are random events do you?

Anyone that reasonably understands Iran's military ability, knows this is a joke, as they can't, nor will they attempt to do so, lest they lose most of their fleet in the attempt, not to mention a few well placed, GPS guided, 500 pounders on distribution pipes, to slow their main economic export to a trickle. Not that they aren't willing to sacrifice a few ships and hundreds of men, in a well planned bluff, the US will not allow this line to be crossed and any attempt, would be a great excuse, to flex the mussels of a couple carrier task force capabilities. All sides know this and it's a posturing exercise intended to ramp up public support on both sides.

As a rule, Islamic counties haven't been able to peacefully rule them selves for centuries. They can't even live with each other, let alone neighboring counties. Of the 22 Muslim countries, none are particularly functional. Many are quite wealthy, but the people don't enjoy any of this. There are a few exceptions, but the cost of these successes are the lack women's rights, child abuse, secular segregation of out of influence sects, etc., etc., etc.

The Muslim community as a whole is about 100 - 200 years behind western societies, in regard to social advances and personnel freedom. This is a classic example of why you just can't mix religion with politics. Presently, there are no successful societies that do mix the two and this has proven the case repeatedly, thought history and also why our founding fathers elected to separate the issues from our government.

The burden of religious oversight has hindered social advancement for many centuries, historically. A few hundreds years ago, western societies began to shed these "bonds" and suddenly these societies took off, economically and industrially. The switch from service to God to service for one's self was the root cause for the industrial revolution and the explosion of personal freedoms for all, in spite of what 2,000 year old religious texts might have to say on the same subjects.

 

Iran is a peaceful country and has not attacked anyone in several hundred years, further the people of the middle east are capable of developing advanced societies as was proven for millenia other than previous hundred years and do in no small part because of colonialism and imperialism from other so called "democratic nations".

Most so called "christians" are part of the rapture cult following a false doctrine called premillenialism and the neocon warmongers are happy to have them wagging tails and following along.

Remember how after the US attacked Iraq under false pretenses the so called "christians" where all whooping it up about how the Gospel was being preached in Iraq and it was a new age in the middle east, this was about the same time bush declared "mission accomplished", now after almost a decade later, everyone knows everything was a lie and it turned Iraq in to a living hell and disgraced the good Christian principles America was founded upon.

Peace.

 

Yeah, right. Iran is arming, training and supporting numerous terrorist organizations, pledging to wipe Israel off the map and kill all jews, ect.
And your rantings about Christians? The very definition of prejudice and bigotry.

 

actually MR Goodwill Iran has a long history of hostile acts against its neighbors up to and including very recent history. Its openly threatening Israel and its openly supporting violent actions against numerous nations. While I can appreciate your view of US foriegn policy in the region as well as both the christian left and right I'm thinking that A nuclear Iran is against anyone's better interests. If it weren't for Iran itself touting its aspirations I'd question the legitimacy of he claims against it, but as it is I think its a very real threat. Particularly considering that Israel isn't going down without a fight. One bomb is about all it would take to end Israels existence, Iran is large enough to withstand a few. So from a logical point of view, a preemptive strike is about the only option is a little extortion money fails. Even at that I'm not sure the powers that be would be satisfied Iran had halted its programs.

Par
you might enjoy this series
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...77Rudg&usg=AFQjCNG_J_8F6maaiYmierh230QAiADL6Q

cheers
B

 

The long and continuous Shia insurgency along the Iran/Iraq boarder, plus the support of the segregated, but out of power sect in Iraq, eventually caused Iraq to invade Iran in 1980, hoping to capitalize on the revolutionary confusion within Iran and begin the longest war of the 20th century.

The Iranian Shia have exported influence and terrorism world wide, for decades and this isn't a debatable subject. Branches of this militant form of Shia have festered in several other countries and currently are the ruling party in occupied near east and northern African concerns. It's one of the worst governments in the world in regard to it's people and foreigners.

Without a very good understanding of the history and religious dynamics in these areas, discussion about them is merely debate by stocking clerks over molecular physics. For example what is Hezbollah and what is the difference between Sunni and Shia, let alone how to properly pronounce the two.

Again and historically, no one has made any successes, in relatively modern times, in regard to self government, simple social advances and world status, as anything other then a fly in the ointment of life. This isn't anything new to this region and for several centuries has proven their inability to cope internally, let alone externally. If it wasn't for the late 19th and early 20th century discoveries there, artificially propelling them to some social and political status (oil), the world wouldn't be terribly concerned that they sell their children, **** their women and abuse their neighbors. It's when their ideals of justice, life style and political aspirations overflow their little domain (which is often now) that the rest of the world has to take steps to isolate them. This also isn't anything new to them or the world.

This has happened to many countries in history, with the usual result being invasion once a set of lines gets crossed. Japan experienced this prior to WW II, with nearly complete isolation from the rest of the world and it's eventual total destruction and occupation.

The very first atomic bomb and delivery device Iran builds will land on Tel Av within a week of it's construction. Everyone knows this, it's not tolerable and you can bet several plans exist to thwart just this potentiality. Iran also knows this and will use it to their best advantage, mostly to extort concessions. For example they'll promise to back off the enrichment program, if sanctions are eased. Now, if they actually have a bomb, they can get more bang for their bargain in this regard, so expect chest thumping to build in the coming months. Followed by a compromise on both sides, followed by Iran's typical approach of saying one thing and doing the other, followed by a very specifically targeted air strike, to remind them of how expensive the game really is. In fact, I suspect the talk will ramp up until right before the election, then Iran will call our bluff. I figure an air strike very likely a couple weeks to a month before the election. This would be the typical route in an election year.

 

That's the funniest paranoid nonsense I have ever heard.
Funnier even than Iranian claptrap, except that they have been attacked
by Iraq and others with US backing and chemical weapons.

 

One of the longest wars in the 20th century started with Iraq attacking Iran with US backing.
Are you attempting to re-write history?

 

not at all
might I point out the US embassy invasion that kicked of the latest round of relations between the two countries was not just a response to the US imposition on Iranian politics but Iran's own internal affairs between neighboring groups.

I might also point out the long running feud between Iraq and Iran thats gone on ever since the two were formed. Even longer than that if you want to go back to the tribal history in the region. Whole place has been a tinderbox for generations going back to the dawn of history. No re-writing necessary, its a well founded assessment of the "loving" relationship between neighbors you tend to get in that area of the world.

Oh and Pars opinion is perfectly valid given that Iran has stated clearly that Israel is living on "borrowed" time.

You might check out the following because these kinds of statements are in almost all of the Irans public statements. Its almost like a preamble to any gubment speech

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...MKX1bg&usg=AFQjCNF8JYxW4WKwN4DckEIemUobeHHjLw

 

Anyone that doesn't think Tel Av will not be the test range, for Iran's first bomb, obviously hasn't been paying attention, to the last several decades of Iran's existence.

Clearly Leo, you aren't up much on the history of the area or the specifics of the Iran/Iraq war.

As for Iraq support by the USA, well, if you'd a sense of the era's history, you'd understand we were pretty pissed at Iran at the time and understandably so, though our support was fairly limited. Iraq's main financial supporter was Saudi Arabia followed by several other Islamic countries. The USA was well down on the list in comparison. If anyone benefited from the influx of funds into this conflict (which across 8 years, really wasn't much money), it was Turkey, who managed to stave off economic crisis, as a result of being one of the only outlets and importers for much desired western goods. The USSR was the primary arms supplier for Iraq.

So and again, it's wise to have a real grasp on the reality of the area, it's history and the social/economic/religious/political differences/conflicts before entering into a discussion. It's one thing to have an opinion, yet another to have an informed one.

 

I've heard the same sort of sabre-rattling and rhetoric for over 40 years
from the US, North Korea, China, Pakistan, Iran, and other nutcases in their
governments.

All the posturing and rhetoric didn't stop nutty North Korea from developing
nukes, and it is unlikely to stop Iran.

 

Yes, and it's wise to use common sense instead of resorting to rhetoric and
logical fallacies such as "Everyone knows..." or re-hashing war-mongering
nonsense from right-wing US pundits.

The claptrap issued by Iran is on a par (see what I did there?) with the
sabre-rattling issuing from the USA.

 

Are you relying on American intelligence ( cough) is that the same intelligence that dragged you and Uk into an urgent war with Iraq over ----well similar.

Unlike Iraq that said they did not have it --Iran admits they do.

If we use the same yard stick we should have been in Iran tears ago.

Incidentally when the Sha ran the place Iran was a holiday destination along with Lebenon, see what religion does -- any flavour.


Sight --alls well in Switzerland and Sweden 99% atheists.