Introduction or Where Fools Fear to Tread

[wave2_2]

Hello to all you fine people at boatdesign.net, I have been trawling the web for sailing resources for th past few weeks trying to get a grip on sailing yachts. If you're not already in the scene its not easy breaking into it

So finally I find your forum and after looking through the various posts i find that very quickly I'm in over my head.

My background is in dinghy sailing having grown up around the sea (South Coast UK, Southampton, Lee-on-Solent, Portsmouth, Weymouth) sailing dinghies and windsurfers in my younger days. I now find that i'm getting a little old those shenanigans (well not old, maybe lazy perhaps), i'm just not keen on spending most of my time submerged, and i wasn't born with a blow-hole, nor flippers. I think its time i hung up my neoprene spurs and settled down with something more civilised. (I love sailing and being in or around the sea, but no amount of wishing i was a dolphin makes me one...also, its COLD in the UK for that kind of thing)

So I started doing a bit of reading, joined my local yacht club (am currently living in Liverpool UK so sailing is accessible and conditions are favorable). I'm on a Dayskipper theory course which deals with the technicalities of sailing (navigation, mooring, weather, tides, COLREGS), rather than the art of sailing. The problems is that no amount of nightschool and book reading will get you out on the water, however you need the knowledge before you can go on to do the Dayskipper practical which evaluates your sailing skill (on a yacht you don't know in waters you are not familiar with). Racing within a crew is educational but its not your boat and you only get to know the rig that the skipper has with no particular idea of the alternatives.

So my plan is to get myself smaller, more practical boat for coastal sailing to get myself acquainted with the waters (you don't need a licence in the UK for coastal sailing). I was thinking along the lines of a MacGregor or a Folkboat, something you can safely handle short-handed.

Now, here's where it gets over-ambitious:

I've been looking at affordable folkboats (my father has always wanted to sail a folkboat and i look farward to doing that with him) but the more affordable they are the more work needs doing to them. Over the next 6 months or so i want to be able to learn enough about boats (sail plans, rigging, boat construction) to fit a folkboat (assuming the survey comes back that the mast and hull are sound). Eventaully i would like to trade-up for a larger boat that i can take on holiday as a liveaboard for up to a month at a time, but we'll see what the future holds.

Even if this particular pipe-dream comes to nothing and after 6 months i don't feel confident about it I would value the learning experience. I started by reading Roger Marshalls book "Choosing a cruising Sailboat" which i have found is excellent on design pointers and an explanation of why boats are the way they are and what the trade-offs are. I would like to know of any more resources that you can think of for: (assume no prior knowledge)

a) hull design materiels, what are the (dis)advantages of various materiels, wood/composites/fibreglass/metal. I have no intention of designing/building a hull (my dayjob is too demanding to get involved in that), but i would like to have an understanding of how it is done. At the back of my mind is the idea that you can't really modify production cruisers because of the materiels they use so maybe finding a boat built out of a more amenable substance is the answer.

b) how to rig boats with particular sail configurations, for example I'm currently crewing on a 26 ft displacement yacht with a modified fractional sloop rig, but knowing how the owner modified his rig does not tell me how or why i might want to modify my own rig. I've been quite taken with the idea of a rear arch that holds the mainsheet traveller removing that particular mess from the cockpit, but it looks like a weak structure, if i'm running and gyb suddenly what are the chances the whole thing will be torn off?. Also a self-tacking gyb appeals to me but i have yet to see one in practice. How to change the position of winches, or lead sheets back to the cockpit without changing the position of winches. Fitting deck organisers, clutches, handholds; i'm good with a hammer and some nails but there must be a better way.

c) Internal fittings; the pitfalls of driling holes in your boat, different toilets and how they work, shower systems, hot/cold water, presurised water systems/foot pumps, watermakers, fitting electrical systems, what to fit first, engine maintenance (with the folkboat i'm avoiding the issue somewhat by using an outboard, if it goes wrong i can take it to the chandlery, but how is that fitted to the boat?), gas/propane stoves, appropriate ventilation etc.

I appreciate there's a bit much here to get answers to specific questions but if you know where i could start looking, maybe some good starter books, or even a corespondance course. And of course there's where to get all these bits from, the local marina doesn't keep a stock of sea-toilets on the shelf.

Before i started this post i did do a search on the site to see if any answers came up to these questions but there's lots of people who already have a grounding in this knowledge and alot of gaps that i can't fill without a degree in engineering.

Many thanks in advance,

Tom

[wave2_2]

That bit about fitting a folkboat was a bit of a leading question really, i should explain that a bit further: there is for a sale a traditional nordic folkboat. She is well maintained and sailed regularly, has a masthead rig (sails new in 2002, but in its club class a folkboat sails with a 3/4 fractional rig), 2 berths, little head rooom, no electronics/nav equipment and the only thing on it electronic is the bilge pump because the cockpit drains into the bilge. No toilet (i misrepresent the owner, he states quite specifically "toilet: orange bucket and rope") and no galley, and little room to play with. Oh and no engine.

So i wouldnt really be re-fitting that particular boat, but it struck me as a good point to start.

Since I last posted i've found a book on yacht fitting in the resource section. Still i'm interested in the bigger picture, but if getting started means i do it the hard way by jumping in feet first, well its a learning curve isnt it

[gonzo]

An on-site inspection by a surveyor or other knowledgeable person is your best bet.

[Bergalia]

Wave2_2 - welcome aboard. Leave aside your books - you'll find more knowledge among the members than an library could hold. Practical knowledge at that. (Apologies to various authors).
I'm a long standing (or should that be crouching) Folkboat fan. Beautiful forgiving craft. Not the fastest of craft - but oceanworthy mile crunchers. Just the type of craft needed for the UK's west coast. A simple sloop rig suits them fine. Add a genoa and that's all the canvas you'll need. As for electrics and engine. Well - old Jimmy Cook explored my 'new' part of the world without either.
A small 'strap- on' outboard will putter you in and out of the berth when wind fails - or until you gain enough confidence to arrive in a flurry of cotton 'pazazz' (always makes the heads turn - especially when you plough through half a dozen moored dinghies on the way...)
Good charts, a handbearing compass, dividers, parallel rule and soft pencil. Basic tools but used by the early and greatest navigators. - much more fun than pressing buttons and staring at a green screen...
One small alternative to a Folkboat - if you get the chance of acquiring a Whisstock Deben class sloop - jump at it. Both small craft are my idea of the perfect cruiser. Debens even have a built-in lavvy (trouble is its so complex with all the valves to open and close in the correct order that the uniniated tend frequently to flood your boat. Just make sure they 'go' before coming aboard...
Once more, welcome.

[wave2_2]

Gonzo: aye, that is sound advice and i will be acting on it for sure

Bergalia: thank you for your warm welcome, your words mirror those of the present folkboat owner - what do you need a lav for, you have a bucket on a rope! As far as electronics and the like go I know most essentials can be hand-held, compass and GPS certainly, and its still a requirement to keep up to date paper charts of the area your sailing regardless of what computerised plotting software you have. Comfort is also a factor, but it seems you pay for comfort on a boat on a steep log scale

Will look into the Deben and see what turns up

Once again, thanks for the warm welcome and i look forward to pestering the lot of you more in the future ;p

Tom

[D'ARTOIS]

A folkboat is definately not a bad choice - a Cornish crabber could do some good too!

Otherwise you have to go for the lookout. If you want a boat desperately, you will find one as long as you remember what your prioryties are. The UK has absolutely the finest sailing grounds of Europe, a lot to discover for the distinguished yachtman/woman.
I never had been around Scotland and the Isles. As soon as I have my boat here, I am going to make that good.

[wave2_2]

I looked at the cornish crabbers but because of the circumstances I saw their release of new boats and caught the corresponding "new" prices at the Southampton Boat show this year. Totally possible to get an older model i know, but also i wasn't keen on the gaff/bermuda rigs, neither of which i am used to. The Folk boat rig is more what i am accustomed to and a major selling point for me was the emphasis of sailing it single handed, although having said that most private sellers have a modified masthead rig rather than the traditional 3/4 fractional. Not sure what the score with spinakers is on them, whether they have the facilety for it or even if they were designed without them. I certainly could do without them having rarely used them on dinghies.

Had a look for the Debens, found the boatyard and designer but the boats were harder to track down and i have yet to find any photos of them.

My search for a boat continues, the original boat proved less ideal when i got all the information from the seller, still there's another listed already at a similar price. I'll keep you all posted on my progress, and once I'm afloat i'll make sure to post any humerous disasters i'm involved in

[JPC]

Wave2_2;

The URL below will take you to a page listing a Debens for sale in Essex. Several photos and detail are available there. I've also listed the Agent's contact info at the very bottom of this note. If the URL has gone stale, you can find the boat yourself by searching for a Debens on www.boats.com.

Regards,
JPC


http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_de...e&showMD=false



Seller Agent:


Astonbury Marine Services

19 Colne Road

Brightlingsea

Essex

CO7 0DL

United Kingdom

Phone +44 (0)1206 305996

Fax +44 (0)1206 307846

Freephone 0800 068 6190

[Bergalia]

There you go Wave2_2. That nice JPC has turned up trumps again. A bundle of Deben pictures.
And personal thanks JPC. Browsing that page brought a lump to the groin... Memories. Great memories.

[safewalrus]

Wave2_2, to echo Bergalia - welcome to the show, nice to have 'ee onboard me handsome!

to your questions both the above (as usual) have given you some sound advice, so heres mine "talk, listen, yarn etc. go out with others (you've already got a good bit of experience, you just don't seem to realise it) then get out and PLAY! Enjoy of course, but most importantly DO! So you make a few Faux pas's - if you communicate with people they'll you your new(ish) so they won't let you drown! Irish Sea don't taste to good anyway! but the most important bit is to play

[wave2_2]

Many thanks safewalrus, the plan is to play and thats going well, although its not going smoothly on getting my own boat front.

The skippper taking me out is great, rotating me round the boat to learn the ropes (literally), at present i'm working on the spinnaker as second pole-person (gotta be politically correct ;p), i'm still not convinced they're not more trouble than they're worth although i guess the extra sail area is essential if everyone else is using it. Certainly its most often spinnakers that seem to cause all the mess when they go wrong.

As far as getting a boat goes its just getting more expensive by the day - I need something you can practice most aspects of sailing in but unless you get bigger in size its hard to find a boat with a head - sounds like a silly thing to worry about but if you're out for a weekend sail you're gonna need more than a bucket. Most the smaller boats miss this item out, most will have some sort of galley but when you get down to basics you can always take sandwiches/get to a pub, however if someone needs to go...

Had a look at the debens, looks like a very romantic boat to sail, however the gaff rig puts me off a bit, looks unwieldy and i would have no real idea how to trim the sails, still never say never...

Best advice i've had so far is:
1) decide what you want to do with the boat
2) figure out what boats will do that
3) decide how much you want to spend
4) decide what your priorities are for what you want on the boat
5) draw up a short list
6) take your time and go and visit the boats and take a look

Maybe its me going a little boat crazy but the more i look into this the more expensive it gets. Part of me is thinking that it might be easier to pay for chartering boats or going on courses which will get me out on different boats in different conditions, then when ready go for the big one - without the hassle of keeping and maintaining a smaller less idyllic boat, then selling it on etc

Ultimately the plan is to cruise from Liverpool to Anglesey, Ireland and Portugal (dependent on time), and one day cross the Atlantic, that means a pretty seaworthy boat with a fair amount of creature comfort for staying on board for long periods of time.

On a seperate note i think i might start posting "what i've been reading this week/month", you might be bored stiff by that but it might be interesting to watch the learning process and maybe re-visit some books you read a long time ago, and certainly might stir up some discussion about good/bad information.

Or it might read like an Amazon "what other people also bought..."

[safewalrus]

Wave 2, know what you mean 'bout the spinniker - useful if your into racing, looks rather like you ain't so the best thing I rekon to do with the old spinniker thingy is to find a good taylors (or buy a sewing machine! - helps with the sailmaking?) and knock up a few shirts with it; now they is good, if sweaty! Could even make a "zoot suit" out of it, OK the originals were 'parasilk' but there ain't much difference!

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

Could even make a "zoot suit" out of it,

'Zoot suit' Walrus...A 'zoot suit'...Gosh haven't heard that word since I was issued with one, just after the Crimea War if I remember right...

Still, let's add to Wave2_2's confusion by reminding him that 'ropes' are invariably called 'sheets'. He might also like to inquire of his tutors about 'dolphin strikers', 'bumpkins', my old favourite - baggywrinkles, and of course - krinkles.

Meanwhile, Walrus old chum, how yer keepin...

[safewalrus]

Hey Bergalia buddy great to hear from you, been missing from yer usual haunts of late? To many 'eeeee's in yer whisky man . . tis bad for 'ee. there again poor whisky/whiskey is better than NO whisky/whiskey I'm thinking 'cos of courase ye canna get real rum anymore (the chinese admiral buggered all that up in 1970 didna 'ee [hey thats good 'Scots wi a Cornish accent!].

As for all those technical words you is spouting where ye been mon? Lurking in the Waverly up in blutoon I'll bet! No fish in there only oilrigs an' anchors

And that's really buggered up poor old 'wave 2_2" eh 'skin' (he's hoping - Crimea more like the Boer War - he's been boring the backside oft us since

[Bergalia]

The Waverly...Ah Walrus, memories came flooding back. Brought an itch to the groin...Must be quarter of a century since I was last there.
Nah nothing so exciting of late. Been 'mincing' around with 'artistic' types. One of my daughters is exhibiting some clay things (sorry - sculpture) in a fairly top grade art show. Nothing but pink rubbery things on biscuits and 'house white'. But I did wear the 'zoot'. Bit camphory, bit tight at the crotch, but the shine picked up the low lighting something lovely.
One high point was when a whispy beard engaged me in conversation: "Kimberley tells me you used to drive boats...Tell me darllng man, is it true what they say about sailors...?"
You'll recognise the character I'm talking about. He's got a pink rubbery thing up his left nostril. (Which is why I'm now back on the forum...)
PS Tried reading your note in a Scots/Cornish accent... God Walrus - it was awful