Interest in war

[SamSam]

The details of why, what for and what if are just too many. Every conflict has at least two sides, otherwise it wouldn't be a conflict. The KR were probably just waiting for the moment, our leaving probably provided it. But making the locals sympathetic to them by indiscriminate bombing and illegal invasion...well, what if we hadn't of done that? What if we weren't in the region to begin with? What if we worked as hard to prevent war to begin with as compared to how much everyone suffers when it doesn't go smoothly? Has there ever been a smooth war? Even then, what's better, a smooth war or a rough peace?

Mainly though, I was just interested in the culture of war and how much it was promulgated over the airwaves and books in other places. I always thought, as a kid, that communication would be the downfall of institutions like communism etc, maybe war, poverty etc. Now I see that humans are not as swift as I thought and that truth, justice and the American way is not a universal ideal. Or that there is even such a thing. I agree that democracy as practiced is not working. One man, one vote can only lead to mediocracy, in fact I think it is already here. I seriously wonder if our system of govt. hasn't been so compromised by mediocre politicians and religion and general stupidity, that it has reached a tipping point where it is too off track and too cumbersome to be reasonably fixed, and a new start makes more sense.

[hansp77]

As South East Asia is one of my all-time most loved places-
the subject raises a few thoughts for me.
We talk about these wars in the past-tense, long gone, history to be remembered, learned from or (as the case may) forgotten- yet in many and different ways this is not the case at all.

Travelling through Vietnam I was quite impressed with how much and far the country had (IMHO) 'moved on' from the war (you could of course make the argument that they won- and this makes it a little easier to 'move on')- there are memories of course, there is respect, pride, and of course a lot of pain (among other things)- but by and large I felt an overwhelming feeling that they had moved on and past the war- to a life and future beyond- even for the dispossessed and discriminated-against original southern Vietnamese.
But then of course there are other elements of war that move on even slower than human memories, hearts and minds. In some regions of Vietnam, the ongoing human evidence of both landmines and agent orange was absolutely sickening and infuriating.
Even in the long-distant day when all the landmines have finally worn themselves out on farmers, children, cows or time, the dioxins from agent orange are still going to be around, for some groups even getting worse as it collects in valley hotspots and such, or continues to wreak increasing genetic havoc with the following generations.

In Cambodia, well, to me there was so much sadness. Such a beautiful country- yet still so wounded- the wounds so fresh. Not much time there yet to move on yet- let alone from the remaining physical elements of the war that remain, unexploded ordinance, chemicals, same old story...

Yet for some, it is not just the proximity of time to the horrors of war, nor the remaining physical legacy from such. For some the war is still going.
Last I was over there a few years ago, with a best mate who lived in Bangkok I hired a couple of motorcross bikes, and we rode up into the central mountainous region of Laos.
There was a mystical spot on the map I wanted to explore- the "Xaisomboun restricted area"- "NO ENTRY".
On the road and throughout the country we tried to find out why it was restricted. Remote, they told us, bad roads, wet season, shrugs of shoulders.... "not good for you there!"
... So we went in and through anyway.
A day or so in, we started coming up against some serious military activity- big troop movements, transports, light artillery, fresh cut roads into the jungle mountains, and lots of scary guys with AK47's stopping us or forcing us off the road. With a lot of sweat and uncomfortable moments we got through, wondered what was happening, and moved on to other adventures- yet it wasn't until a few months later once I was home that research alerted me to what was actually happening there.
As it turns out, we were witnessing the Laos Army in the process of systematically hunting down the last regional remnants of the Black Hmong (as was occurring in the north and elsewhere of the country). The Hmong have never been forgiven for siding with the US in the CIA's 'secret war'. I don't need to go into the politics what, when, how and why this 'secret war' happened... my point is, these Hmong, a culture and people I have spent weeks in close and appreciative contact with in Vietnam (and came to love), were (and AFAIK still are) living like animals in the mountain highlands, hiding out, sick, starving, constantly on the move with no shelter and no rest, getting hunted and killed like animals, as an ongoing consequence (reparation) of a war fought so many years ago now that it is simply relegated into the pile of 'history to be learned from', somewhere in the lower stack of used cards- while fresh and new cards or wars continue to get played and stacked on top.

War is attrocious, and what it produces lasts long after Victory or defeat is announced.

This sh!t aint history yet.

[Jimbo1490]

A key element of moving on when a conflict ends is that the victors have to completely forgive and forget. This is of immeasurable help in the healing process, both for victor and vanquished.

In this regard the US has played a key and often ignored role in promoting healing. The first war the US used this philosophy was of course our own civil war. No other civil conflict in memory has seen both sides so quickly return to good relations, or the vanquished side so prosperous so soon after cessation of hostilities.

The US campaigned hard to use the 'forgive and forget' philosophy after WWI. But the idea of forgiving Germany, and even helping rebuild her, was abhorrent to many, especially the French. Massive, economically debilitating war reparations were the result, which we can now quite easily see led to the ascension of the Nazis.

The present gov't of Viet Nam should take heed; but they probably won't.

Cambodia is another story altogether because the Khmer Rouge never really were vanquished, they just disappeared into the jungle. There was never any closure. Pol Pot died an old man. Old KR cronies still walk free and prosper. How can they ever heal with a situation like that?

Jimbo

[safewalrus]

And so the argument drags on, and on and on! Lots of rheotic about why and the mess it gives but bottom line it doesn't do a thing for poor peasant stuck on the ground in the firing range just trying to bring his family up as besst he can! And that covers every bloody country and creed in the world - bar none!