homo igneus, the burning man

[CDK]

"I think we're f*cked!"

With these words, without the asterisk, Lewis Black concluded his show on Dutch TV at the end of 2009.
He is a successful Jewish-American stand-up comedian of more than average intelligence who in this case showed his audience the absurdity of an industry that goes to any length to bring us smartphones and other toys we can easily do without, yet doesn't come up with a single realistic solution for the fuel/environmental problem looming at our horizon.

We are addicted to energy more than many of us are willing to admit and now the supply gets short and the climate announces it is payback time.
Some of us think the climate change is a hoax or assume there is enough fuel for the next 1000 years, some support the theory that solutions are within reach, but governments, the oil industry or both suppress any new developments.

Threads like the one about climate change are several 1000's posts long now. What was meant to be a discussion is in fact clashing of swords between environmentalists and those in denial, what should be opinions have turned into some sort of religion.

As a boy of barely 6 years old I had the misfortune to get religious fanatics as foster parents. My "father" tried to beat, bribe and blackmail me into Christianity and when he admitted defeat after almost 12 years, told me to leave. So I gathered my things and left, scarred in more than one way.
So I am not religious or in any other way inclined to believe without proof. The concept of a roomful of virgins awaiting a suicide bomber to me is just as weird as a place down somewhere where people burn forever or the never ending party in heaven for the good guys.

Don't get me wrong, if you feel religion enhances your life or makes it more bearable, I have no problem with that as long as you do not keep knocking on my door to convert me.

Links to web documents I do not regard as proof of anything unless the source is trustworthy. As far as the climate change is concerned I very much doubt there is any: even reliably predicting the weather one week in advance with large computers and mountains of data is something we do not yet master.

Common sense tells me that if you pour endless amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, there may be consequences, but that is no proof. Nor can the multitude of weather extremes we are faced with be linked without reasonable doubt to the way we behave. Probably, but no certainty.

But I didn't like Lewis Black's conclusion one bit, so the topic kept nagging.
And then I had this revelation.

WE ARE THE BURNERS!

32 Valve EFI engines, Rolls Royce jets engines and other products we think of as sophisticated equipment are in fact stone age technology in a new wrapper. Ever since mankind found a way to start a fire, we have done nothing else but look for combustibles and burn them, using part of the energy while wasting most of it. First we burned wood, then coal and oil and probably keep doing that as long as we are here. We used the same technology for everything we ever did, to get rid of witches, to win wars and to go to the moon. We celebrate with fire, mourn with it and promise our enemies they will burn in hell.

Because we are the burners.

Our ancestors were called homo erectus because they stood straight up while the others were on all fours. That we now are homo sapiens, the knowing man, is incredible arrogance. The average TV show or the crowd watching a game proves that knowing is not the property which unites us.

We are "homo igneus", the burning man and we keep on going until there is nothing left to burn. Clouds, storms, flooding or the sea level rising will not stop us or even slow us down, because it is in our genes.

Lewis Black is wrong, we are not f*cked: we are just the ones doing it.

A reassuring thought.

Can you read my mind?

[Tug]

Lets just follow the doom chanters mantra all the way to the end...
We use up all the oil...we will adapt...
Now that the oil is all gone, wouldn't it be better for the planet to be warmer?
Sure there will be famine and humanity will have to redistribute to the northern areas,,,,but atleast humanity wont have to worry about freezing to death...
Cheers
Tug

[souljour2000]

Yeah ..everyone just move to Ontario..THAT's the answer!...let's see..poverty will be probably widespread in these "climate migrant" populations...probably alot of drugs and crime that goes with it. let's hope they all go to Ontario...Canada already has loose immigration laws...so should be easy...the last drp of Alberta oil shale can be squeezed from the earth by this cheap immigrant labor...it's a win win for everyone!
Man....it's not hard to see the generations gaps these days...there are many middle-aged and older folks who don't want to just can't sit on their behinds but actually want to make a difference...and then there is the rest...forgive me for bringing age into this..the last poster could be a 12-year old from Wasilla for all I know...

I am as guilty of using lots of energy as most of us...but I'm doing what I can...I may be an "igneous man" but my farts are blue flames with occassional flickers of orange and red... not white hot incandescent ones...

[happy_red]

Let's see, in 1970, they said there was less than 30 years of oil left. Now it's 40 years later and there are more than 30 years of known reserves. There is over 2000 years of known coal reserves sitting around that can be extracted. At any time we can build the latest IFR nuclear reactors to supply cheap, clean and plentiful power.

We are living longer, healthier, happier lives thanks to advancements in technology and increased wealth.

But hey, why not send us all back to the middle ages where we can conserve energy to our hearts content and die at the ripe old age of 30. We can work ourselves to the bone and develop arthritic joints at the age of 20 and hark back to the days of 80% infant mortality rates. Great idea!

There's plenty left to burn and no reason not to burn it. Global Warming is an unproven myth, sustained by a political and environmental need to scare the c**p out of us all the time. It has now been renamed Climate Change and I'm sure will eventually be renamed to Weather Variability so it can encompass every drop of rain and cloud formation.

But never mind, this is a boat design forum, so why not ruin it with a bit of enviro-nonsense?
Find me a tree, I'm in need of a hug!

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by Tug

Lets just follow the doom chanters mantra all the way to the end...
We use up all the oil...we will adapt...
Now that the oil is all gone, wouldn't it be better for the planet to be warmer?
Sure there will be famine and humanity will have to redistribute to the northern areas,,,,but atleast humanity wont have to worry about freezing to death...
Cheers
Tug

We could use the warming. More oranges. More wheat. Good for everybody.

[Zed]

The CO2 scare is a hoax and believe it or not we may still be using the infernal combustion engine well after the oil is gone, which is not a hoax, peak oil is here and the oil left is much much less in terms of real supply than is commonly understood. Liquid fuel is very practical, battery tech is getting better but still not going to fly a 747. Besides if we all wanted batteries the metals that make them are way scarcer than oil! Take a look at NH3 tech, we first ran a car on it in the 70's and we can use intermittent energy sources like wind and wave etc to produce it from seawater. Its a liquid fuel that can leverage our existing investment in liquid fuel and can leverage new clean production technology. It looks like a winner to me... a bit like geo thermal, base load capable and leveraging existing infrastructure, the answer lies in evolution not revolution.

Co2 is good gas.... don't demonize it.

Look up Matt Simmonds and the work they are doing in Maine.

[TeddyDiver]

It's now proven CDK as most of the responses prefer burning.. just looking to see some flames here

[Zed]

"and those in denial"

Paint me green and call me a muppet...

"and those that have never really thought through the trigger gas argument, an argument that only a corrupted mind could love"

[capt vimes]

Originally Posted by CDK

"I think we're f*cked!"

With these words, without the asterisk, Lewis Black concluded his show on Dutch TV at the end of 2009.
He is a successful Jewish-American stand-up comedian of more than average intelligence who in this case showed his audience the absurdity of an industry that goes to any length to bring us smartphones and other toys we can easily do without, yet doesn't come up with a single realistic solution for the fuel/environmental problem looming at our horizon.

yes - we are ******/doomed...
i appreciate your post, CDK, and fully concur with all you've written!
thank's...

[CDK]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

It's now proven CDK as most of the responses prefer burning.. just looking to see some flames here

Did you expect anything else?

By assuming without any proof that there is still plenty to burn we justify what we are doing and need not worry about our children and grandchildren: there will be enough for them too and if the assumption is proven wrong we cannot be held responsible anymore.

There is a minority contemplating other energy sources, mainly because they noted that our burn rate is climbing alarmingly and the shortage starts affecting our lifestyle with steadily increasing fuel prices. If only we could convince the Chinese to stick to oxes or whatever they have, there would be more fuel left for us, but they already own a large chunk of the United States, so they probably won't listen.

Of course the alternative sources are unrealistic. It takes a staggering amount of energy to build a solar power plant, a wind turbine park or a truckload of nuclear fuel rods, so there is still burning involved. Plus the fact that solar and wind do not guarantee delivery at the right moment.

Deep in our hearts, we do not really want all that, because we are the burners. In Indonesia farmers burn whole islands to prepare the grounds for their crop. Pictures of large fires, fireworks or an erupting volcano fascinate us. Special effects in the movie industry is focused on creating explosions and erupting flames because we love it.
We like to think of ourselves as the crown of creation, but that is not what we really are....

[Zed]

Look at the NH3 stuff, it has potential and the pilot scheme in Maine is impressive. Many other things need to happen but its a good idea in many respects.

Edit: Sorry, don't look that up... I mistook you for someone looking for answers and hope... What a crappy post!

[happy_red]

CDK - "By assuming without any proof that there is still plenty to burn"...

Like everything, once you take out the eco (non) argument, it comes down to simple economics.

Wind and Solar are too erratic and still need a similarly rated power station (in Europe, gas - elsewhere usually coal) to cover them. Wind and Solar are also extremely highly subsidised and therefore not economically viable.

Following your armageddon theory, as supplies of oil/coal/gas become more scarce, the price rises and 'alternative' forms of energy make more economic sense.

The research into the Gen IV nuclear reactors, nuclear batteries, Hydrogen power, solar, wave and wind relies on the wealth generated from the relatively cheap burning of fossil fuels that drive our economies. Hamstringing those economies by introducing a Carbon Tax or some other financial burden will only hamstring the research.

We all want cleaner, more efficient energy, but most of us are not blinded by the global warming argument and would rather not send the western world back to some impoverished, middle age Gaia to achieve it. It just doesn't make sense to cripple the economies of all the major world powers and inhibit the growth of the second and third world countries for an unproven scare story.

Environmentalism is costing us dear and killing people. Malaria kills millions in Africa every year yet could be almost eliminated by the use of DDT, a chemical that freed the Western world of malaria, but was wrongly banned by the EPA - even though their own research found no problem with it.

So no, we're not f*cked.
By almost any measure imaginable, we are doing pretty well. Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on the known and proven issues facing the world that make more economic sense to solve, such as starvation, clean drinking water, malaria, HIV and other diseases? A read of Bjorn Lomborg's 'Global Crises, Global Solutions' and the same authors 'A Skeptical Environmentalist' may help to get things in perspective.

[CDK]

happy_red, if you quote, please have the decency to quote the whole sentence so there is some context left.

What you call "my armageddon theory" has in fact been going on for some time already, so it is no theory anymore. To get the amounts of fuel we need, we have to rely on unpredictable sources like Russia that may cut us off at any time because of conflicts we play no role in, Nigeria where the pipeline is under constant attack and Venezuela, ruled by an aggressive clown. This week Shell signed a contract for an oilfield near Basra in Iraq: if there really is plenty of oil on this planet they picked a dangerous location for their future source.
Keep your fuel bills to compare them with next year's.

Like I said in post #1, I know of no scientific proof linking a climate change to what we are doing on this planet, but it would not surprise me. A rough calculation based on breath rate and volume tells me my car used about 100 times more than I do and produces CO2 accordingly. So while driving around with my wife it's not the two of us, but 102.
Every oxygen pair my car links to a C becomes useless to me until some plant or tree is so kind to separate them again. If the cloud cover increases, that may take a while and if they do not stop destroying the rain forest the situation will be even worse.

Your concern about burdening the western economy is a very real one. No growth in one year and the whole world is in turmoil. After some time, you'll get used to that as well. Shifting production to China is more effective in killing economies than a Carbon Tax.

Do not be afraid you'll be thrown back to the middle ages and die from old age at 30.
I live on an island just like you do, mine is much smaller, has no industry and only minimal infrastructure, but lots of forests and macchia. A visit to any churchyard here shows that old age is between 85 and 105. The only exception is on an even smaller island nearby, where I found none over 68.
The explanation is this: almost the whole male population moved to New York in the early 50's after one sailor went there and wrote to his family he found heaven but missed his friends.

Keep thinking you are doing pretty well.

[Boston]

I saw the thread tittle and thought maybe someone else was a burning man fan

we have a little party round here once a year called burning man
little festival were we build a city in the desert and live it up for a week
lots of artists and naked ladies and immense sculptures
there are a few basics but all in all its anything goes
rules for sculptures are simple
cool it first
functions is second
safety is third
fourth is a five mile an hour limit on art cars or articulated sculptures

Ill throw in a few videos but this is not a party for the meek of heart

last day the whole city goes up in flames
this first shows just one sculpture going up
a few fire spinners and the MIT guys light box





shows the party before the burning although does not show the sculptures real well



this next shows the city before the burning on a flight in
yes they even have an airport and yes
it gets burned as well
this one also shows the sculptures pretty well to although not the burning



might have been slightly off subject but its better than bothering explaining
why climate science is accurate

as Jerry once said
you aint going to learn
what you dont want to know

love
B