Global Warming? are humans to blame?

[Petros]

masrapido posted what appears to be a well reasoned defense of Marx, the problem is it ignores what Marx actually wrote. His manifesto, which I have read and studied, is unintelligible and irrational, there is no logic to it and it is incoherent, is not economic theory but rather a long rant against properity. Everywhere it is implemented results in poverty for all, everywhere free markets are tried results in increased prosperity for all, true some prosper more than others, but everyone benefits.

Adam Smith is easy to understand, for market system to work you have to have three things, multiple producers free to sell where they choose, multiple buyers free to buy where they want, and information on the products and prices available. The examples of capitalist acting like Marxist is where these conditions do not exist. The role of government is to make sure those conditions exist, but governments made of people are corruptible, so free markets never fully exist. If the government had done its job in regulating bankers, and staying out of the mortgage business (Freddi-Mac and Fanny-Mae) the recent severe trouble would not have happened.

When producers collude with government to create monopolies, than free markets do not exist. The cost of health care, the cost of gasoline, the cost of food, etc would all be lower and better quality if there was a true competitive market instead of only a few large producers with the government protecting their monopoly. They are only one step away from the false promise of Marx's utopia with one producer providing for all in one market (and with their hand in our pocket).

And consider once a market driven economy was established in one country, technology, prosperity, medicine and a lot of advances were accomplished in only a few hundred years. compared to all previous human accomplishments that changed very little since the dark ages. Almost everyone in the world lives better, healthier and safer lives than even in human history only now because of modern market systems. Not a single significant human advancement was accomplished by a Marxist country.

This is why I believe in liberty and freedom for all. With the ability to profit from your hard work, and your good ideas, everyone in the world benefits. Marxism takes by force the hard work and good ideas of individuals, killing innovation, creativity and prosperity where ever it is tried. It is a criminal system made legitimate by criminal governments.

You can not defend it, so do not even try. It rewards laziness, punishes hard work and industry, depends on institutionalizing envy to get it to work, legitimizes government theft of private property, and basically promotes everything you do not want in a hard working population.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by masalai

On a bumber sticker (jeep)
"GLOBAL WARMING" - > - "INCREASED WATER LEVELS" - > - "MORE PLACES TO FISH" - > - "BRING IT ON"

It's not just a joke. There is a good case to be made that everyone would be better off if the earth were a bit warmer. It could open up huge sections of Canada, and Siberia for agriculture, and could increase rainfall in desert areas.

[Boston]

Your right its not a joke Dave, If the rate of change was synonymous with the typical variation in the system then sure, a couple degrees over say a few million years wouldn't be any problem at all. But I think at this point we all know thats not what's going on here.

We are on a path that realistically leads to a temp increase of 3~4°C over the next say 50 to 100 years, probably closer to the 50 year mark than not. That's change at a rate never seen before even in the worst of the extinction events

Thing to always remember about temp change forced by CO2 over such short periods of time is it tends to result in methane hydrate deposits becoming unstable, when that releases ( and there's already been a 150% increase in atmospheric methane ) it will result in another 3~5°C temp increase in about the same time, and there's nothing to say those releases aren't already overlapping.

Given the rate of species loss, its fair to say we are already in an extinction event. So suggesting that everything is hunky dory and we can just go ahead get some extra fishing in just isn't a very informed position

speaking of fish the latest is that 9 out of 10 fish over one foot long have already been removed from the oceans. If you into preserving fishing stocks go see DR J Jacksons lecture "A Brave New Ocean" and I think you will see the true relationship between fish stocks and average temps as well as the issues associated with over fishing and pollution

cheers
B

[hoytedow]

Freezing to death won't be a joke after Obama forces coal-powered electricity plants off-line. Even in snow country many people depend on electricity to stay warm. Good luck with that.

[Boston]

so what your saying is that what with the greater energy of the system due to increasing average temperatures that the severity of storms will increase. Which could just as easily cause more sever if shorter winter events just like its causing more sever and longer summer events.

and Obummer is to blame for what? making coal illegal? Hardly, more likely he's playing ball with the energy industry just like every other republitard or democrap that ever held orifice

Granted coal is about the dirtiest fuel there is but even at that given the 7% increase in energy use every year I don't think there's much doubt we are going to be burning furniture before its all over, rather than cease coal consumption.

[hoytedow]

Don't burn the furniture?

http://www.parabotfurniture.com/furn...ade-from-coal/

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co....ail/story.html

[Dr3w]

cool story bro

[hoytedow]

Temporary up-trend in global warming not confirmed to be caused by man. We are in an inter-glacial period so be glad your @$$ isn't blue.

[gonzo]

My gerbil caused global warming.

[Lister]

Interesting article
lister

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...g-2374262.html

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Lister

Interesting article
lister

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...g-2374262.html

It's worth noting that the Berkely Earth Surface Temperature study was financed by the Koch brothers and other climate change skeptics, to take advantage of and reinforce the publicity over 'Climategate.' Richard Muller, the physicist chairing it, has been a notorious critic of the science involved in climate change -- which is presumably why he was chosen. And the sole climatologist on the team was Judith Curry, who has actually called the IPCC 'corrupt.'

That they produced results closely mirroring those of the very methods and people they've been attacking for years should mean something. But I'm afraid it isn't going to change anyone's mind on this forum....

[Frosty]

Knock knock,--Hi Guys just popped my head round the door to say that you all wasiting your time, go feed the ducks in the park or someting.

Or instead of spouting un known garbage of nil consiqunces go paint the windows of some old age pensioner or something.

67 fking pages geeezus

[Boston]

great article, but for the majority of the people who are in denial, the denial was never based on the science anyway. Its great that some of the last few actual scientists who were having trouble with it had a chance to do there own work and come up with some rational results. But unfortunately the damage is done when it comes to both the environment and the more easily swayed of the public. Its going to take a long long time to re educate and impress the correct information onto the public. Climate change is real, its the biggest danger to our future we face today, and its the direct result of the burning of fossil fuels.

The problem is, still, the rate of change. That last article mentions the 1°C temp increase over the last 50 years. But it forgot to mention that the temp is increasing exponentially. It took the previous 150 years before that to accomplish another 1°C temp increase. You can break it down any number of ways but the rate of change is on a dramatic increase. Just using the % of CO2 in the atmosphere its rate of change and the response in Temp of the past it would seem reasonable to suggest that it will likely only take another 17 years or less, to increase temp by another 1°C. Carry out the rate of increase over even the next three degrees and you find that just 25 years from now were baking. Which gives us almost no time to do much, now that the denial has finally been exposed for what it is. Not based on the science.

While it might not be entirely accurate to assume that the temp "can" change that fast, or that the rate of doubling can be accurately estimated its more than obvious that there's no longer any scientific excuses not to act. Whatever we're going to do about it, had better happen fast. Cause the denial has wasted a lot of time and has made whatever mitigation measures can be accomplished, that much less effective, than if we'd started way back in the 60's when the issue was first presented to the US congress and the solutions would have been easy ones.

Anyway its nice to have some of the former deniers step up and say oops. I'm sure it wasn't easy for them.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by troy2000

It's worth noting that the Berkely Earth Surface Temperature study was financed by the Koch brothers and other climate change skeptics, to take advantage of and reinforce the publicity over 'Climategate.' Richard Muller, the physicist chairing it, has been a notorious critic of the science involved in climate change -- which is presumably why he was chosen. And the sole climatologist on the team was Judith Curry, who has actually called the IPCC 'corrupt.'

That they produced results closely mirroring those of the very methods and people they've been attacking for years should mean something. But I'm afraid it isn't going to change anyone's mind on this forum....

Lots of reports on the internet call Richard Muller a former climate skeptic, and Troy's description above might lead you into thinking that, but it's not true. Richard Muller is not and never has been a climate skeptic. He has been a climate alarmist for decades.

The half-truth behind this deception is that Muller was an honest enough scientist to harshly criticized the scientists involved in Climategate when other climate scientists kept quiet about it. That honesty earned him some harsh criticism from the alarmist side, but he was never anything but a confirmed alarmist himself.

Now, all he has done is go over the warming data since 1950 to confirm the temperature measurements. The fact that he largely confirmed the previous results that previous researchers got with the same data is being spread far and wide as big new evidence for the alarmist side. That's the kind of PR you can get then the entire news media is on your side.

[Boston]

Sorry Dave but thats nonsense. Richard Muller "was" questioning everything from Man famous "hockey stick" to where weather stations were placed. He even once questioned All Gore's presentation calling it an exaggeration. Some of his "richer" quotes can even still be found on the Skeptical Science web site to this day. See http://www.skepticalscience.com/skep...ard_Muller.htm

Seems a little late in the game to now be denying he was ever a true denier. Classic move by the deniers squad where apparently its never to late to do a flip flop.

Obviously He's changed his tune and obviously there's a lot of worming and squirming going on in the deniers camp.

Pretty embarrassing for the Kotch bro's and dam funny to the rest of us.