Global Warming? are humans to blame?

[Toot]

Originally Posted by SamSam

You got that right , but it's about the only thing. "The best argument against Democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill

Alright. Don't like democracy? Then let's start a revolution. Everybody chant with me...



TOOT FOR EMPEROR!!!!! TOOT FOR EMPEROR!!!!!!!



And to assure my post, if elected emperor for life, I hereby do promise to do something about global warming.

[Frosty]

It might help if America cleaned up there diesel a bit ( wich they have been told to do) America makes diesel fuel with sulphur 500part per million, they have been told to cleen up the diesel to 50 parts per million. Then you can import clean burning European deisel engines that at the moment will choke on American fuel. Back to Bush again with no back bone.

Arnold for president he will sort out the bad guys. I saw him in 'Terminator" he wont stand for any monkey business.

[ron17571]

Jack theres low sulphur diesel now and its being fazed in now,its going to be 500 ppm and going down to 15 ppm,yep folks are wanting them small diesel powered cars and the good mpg them europeans have,funny how i didnt like the grey looking buildings,courtesy of many diesels in holland.

[Frosty]

Thers nowt wrong with deisels Ron. I have been told the new Jag diesel pulls like a train. Toyotas can easily make 300 Hp from 4.2 liter (1 Hd engine)

The days of the humengous Cadilacs are over thank god. Those huge space ship like fuel guzzling monsters have been as much amusement to us in Europe as out little Fiats and minis have been to you. The Amercan motor car industry has a long way to go with its push rod engines of 500ci or more. Oh I believe today that Fords are laying off many workers as we speak.

When you make a decent motor I guess some one will buy it? Sticking the Stars N stripes on it and saying its your duty to buy it cant last forever.

I didnt say anything about Harleys!! But I like watching that walruss looking bloke with the wimpy sons on Orange county choppers on National Geographic.

[Raggi_Thor]

Originally Posted by SamSam

Maybe Europe has a much denser population than Africa, but I don't remember seeing many Europeans with distended bellies, skeletal arms, flies crawling in and out of their mouths and across their 1000 yard stare eyeballs. ..

Maybe we are bit off topic, but I think it's important to remember that the problem for (most of) Africa is poverty, not too much people. People starve because they don't have money to buy food, not because there is no food.

[westlawn5554X]

New World Saver LIfestyle:

1. Use slide ruler for calculator, batteries create chemical waste.
2. Grow you own wheat and strange vegetable, use your own waste, good cycle.
3. Use bicycle, save fuel and less pollution.
4. Listen to radio with hand handle charger, no TV... full of pollution news anyway.
5. Use insect net, no pest spray use.
6. Cut your hair bald, save money and chemical pollution from soap and shmpoo.
7. Dont use condom, dangerous suggestion but save the world, less population due to infection and no rubber condom turn into chewing gums

Third world countries used to be effecient until the world teach them new advance pollution tricks.

Anymore guys?

There is always a trade off somewhere

Cheers

[Figgy]

Now this thread is getting good! Are humans to blame? I dont think it matters much now. Like I said in the other thread, its a moot point. Instead of trying to figure out whos fault it is, we should figure out how to fix the problem, at least delay it. We have a moral obligation to future generations to really get that ball rolling.

[ron17571]

Jack im a truck driver and like diesels.I kinda liked them big Cadilacs,but theyve been replaced by big SUV,s and other gas guzzlers,i see them everyday,youd think people had money to burn.Pickup trucks are very popular here,but most people have no real use for them.Some kinda macho crap,mabe alota men trying to compansate for a lack of size downstairs.

[ron17571]

Figgy for me its a matter of what is really needed,i see people driving big gas guzzling pickup trucks with knothing in the bed,i hear in canada pickup trucks are registered as commercial vehicles.Housing is silly also,they build what i call McMansions,big houses with two ac units,big energy hogs.Vehicles and housing should be smaller and more efficient.

[stonebreaker]

Originally Posted by Toot

In the short term, it's perfectly fair. In the long term, it may not be fair to smaller up-and-coming countries. However, if the quotas are kept low enough and continually reduced in order to keep the price artificially high, then it could indeed serve its purpose of reducing emissions with a minimal effect on the free-market economy.

As I see it...up-and-coming countries, or old countries, will invest in new technology to avoid using high-priced quotas... which will then improve the environment and drive down the cost of the quotas.... at which time some of the quotas ought to be taken away in order to inflate the price again, thereby driving more R&D into the reduction of CO2... until eventually everything is clean.

The "prize", the lowest cost provider of widgets, will be the people who are the first to reduce the cost of reducing their CO2 output.

I can't say that's a fair system as America has a LOT of scientists and stuff while smaller countries have relatively few... but at least the system encourages innovation and creativity as the path to making money. That's at least a free market approach... and far better than raping the environment, IMO.

Actually, I see the CO2 quotas as an economic control, similar to the prime interest rate. For those of you not familiar with it, in the USA the Federal Reserve sets the prime interest rate. It's the primary tool the government has for economic control. When the economy is too slow, the Fed lowers the interest rate, making it cheaper to borrow money; when it's growing too fast, the Fed raises interest rates. It's not a perfect system because there is some lag, but it does eliminate the peaks and valleys - we've never had another Great Depression, and it's primarily because of the Fed controlling the interest rate.

The kyoto protocol is a similar economic control tool. By manipulating quotas, the UN will be able to apply control pressures to the various world economies. From an American viewpoint, that is unacceptible. We would be placing our economic health in the hands of foreigners. I don't like a lot of things Bush does, but keeping us out of that charlie foxtrot was the best thing he could have done.

[Frosty]

Co2 emission is not like interest rates!!!!!,-- you always need an interest rate, we do not need to manufacture Co2.
I cant wait for Co2 emissions to be brought to zero I hav'nt a clue how we can do it and I am sure it wont be in my life time.You would think that it would'nt be such a big problem. After all the big picture is get rid of the internal combustion engine!. Im not sure just how much the thousands of planes in the sky contribute to it.

Oh what a sweet day that will be--Sorry Mr Arab we dont use oil any more,----

[stonebreaker]

Originally Posted by jack frost

Sorry Mr Arab we dont use oil any more,----

I'm looking forward to that one myself.

[Raggi_Thor]

I don't remember the name but one US professor and adviser(?) said that you need a new "Manhattan project" to develop new sources of energy and stop importing oil. He was reasoning politically, not environmentally.

[safewalrus]

Hey Figgy you got one important thing right there - who cares whose fault it is/was! the thing is how (if at all possible, which I doubt) are we going to fix it?

[SamSam]

Originally Posted by Raggi_Thor

Maybe we are bit off topic, but I think it's important to remember that the problem for (most of) Africa is poverty, not too much people. People starve because they don't have money to buy food, not because there is no food.

Yes, there is enough food in the world to feed everyone, for the moment. It sort of seems though, like the way the U.S. gov. is being run, with massive debts piling up, with seemingly insurmountable problems down the road to add to it (Soc. Security, baby boomers retiring, etc.). The earth's resources are being borrowed now to pay for feeding and supporting the hordes, but there is no way to repay that debt. Food is being grown in dirt that took millions of years to establish, but is being washed down to the sea in decades. There is a 'theory' afloat that the oceans have been abused so badly that they (it) are not just polluted, but might actually be sick, much like animals become. It only takes decades for what used to be trash fish, such as orange roughy, to become the main fish to catch, as other species become extinct or thinned out.
The poll is too limiting, I don't believe it is just one or the other, it is both. But to have the power to do something about it and do nothing but keep contributing to the problem seems pretty lame for a supposed 'advanced' species. To think there won't be a problem with too many people supported by a shifting, changing, possibly collapsing natural system, is wrong.

Originally Posted by Toot

Alright. Don't like democracy? Then let's start a revolution. Everybody chant with me...
TOOT FOR EMPEROR!!!!! TOOT FOR EMPEROR!!!!!!!
And to assure my post, if elected emperor for life, I hereby do promise to do something about global warming.

It does have it's limitations. One person, one vote seems to be distilling the US into mediocracy. Dumbing down perpetuates itself. Narrow mindedness about things coupled with excess religion, greed, nationalism, patriotism make for dubious government and an unsafe situation. Sam