Following in the footsteps of Greece - bankrupcy that is....

[Wynand N]

It is a well know fact that after Greece expanded its welfare program extensively some years ago, it is considered one of the very reasons of its current financial dilemma.
Why work and pay taxes if you can live off the government tax free without working

South Africa is walking this very road and will hit the sh*t faster than Greece because of a corrupt government that rape the system (excessively) with the gravy train they are all passengers of. In today's paper some statistics were made available and it paints a sorry picture for the future of this once striving country.
As it is now, infrastructures are down and basically non existent. Almost every town and basically every small town has sewage plants that is defunct and raw sewage dumped in every dam that is available in and around towns. My own town is a victim of this and two beautiful fishing dams wasted with sewage and one so highly over filled with the sh*t and raw sewage, is basically on the doorsteps of industrial business and threatening to flood some. Imagine the stink. Some towns sewage is running down streets. Roads are a mess and potholes that put craters to shame everywhere and people dies regularly due to accidents caused by potholes. But back to the subject at hand.

South Africa has about 50 million people - many (read millions) illegal immigrants from neighboring states and even as far as Somalia and Nigeria.
It is also fact that the country has only 5 million registered individual taxpayers of which about 3 million plus are whites. White population about 3.5 - 4 million. People receiving handouts /grants from welfare are more than 15 million. This paints a sorry picture on the fiscal scale.

Here are some welfare facts that will make the Greeks look like saints.

Overall grants/handouts

• 2001 - 3.45 million
• 2011 - 14.94 million

Children grants/handouts

• 2001 - 0,80 million
• 2011 - 10.39 million

The grants given to children risen by 1200% in 10 years

And herein lies the answer. Blacks are notorious for not wanting to work (most of them) in this country and it is a norm under black women to have a child and to register that for welfare grants. And every year or so she produce another one that will have no future in a country that cannot produce enough jobs for the nation and it get worse daily with population growth measured against industrial growth.
No wonder we are the most dangerous country in the world with murder, rape, robberies, hijackings etc etc and even the state is a victim with the government milking it dry for personal gain and the lazy ones destroying the welfare fund.
Guess what - if the country's money coffers ran dry, who will bail them out to finance their sins? you guessed correctly, the first world countries wasting their taxpayers money on incompetent and corrupt African countries to feed their leaders lifestyle.

To sum this up and I quote a famous black political analyst and economist Mr Moeletsi Mbeki:

"In South Africa the ANC says; we give you grants and handouts - you vote for us"

Sad thing is, how long before we sink deeper in the stink when will the bubble burst?
What we have here is the downfall of a country helped along by "mayor" players in the past imposing sanctions on a once thriving country and thereby putting the rule in the hands of people known not having the ability to rule a country successfully and black rule Africa is the history book of this fact.
OTOH, these first world countries that created the monster, must now feed it with handouts that will be demanded from them and please take note, the SA black does not ask, he demands.....Serves them right but I pity the taxpayers that have to contribute for other countries inability to feed themselves.

[BPL]

You need to look at people as people not at the color of their skin. People need to be motivated to work and achieve goals for themselves. More education and opportunity and no handouts for lazy people, black or white.

[michael pierzga]

Greece failed by bloating the government payroll with bureaucrats. In Greece students actually go to university...not to gain employment in the private sector, but to secure a government job for life. Political parties campaigning for votes simply promised more and more public payrol jobs.

Social programs are not necessarily the culprit.. bloated administration was

The best social programs...your retirement needs , healthcare and services.... should be conceived to require little bureaucratic administration and provide best value. Public private initiatives will be the future of social protection.

[michael pierzga]

Originally Posted by BPL

You need to look at people as people not at the color of their skin. People need to be motivated to work and achieve goals for themselves. More education and opportunity and no handouts for lazy people, black or white.

Careful...Ive known Greece for decades as a seaman. Greeks are not lazy, Greeks are educated. They fell victim to special interest political families... nepotism ...the same families have continuously ruled modern Greece to their benifit

Many European countries are facing this same dilemma. Look at Italy. The social system has been perverted to privilege those in power, those with jobs... over the young generation

[BPL]

I know people on welfare in this country, black and white. Sometimes unemployment is a crutch. Others become career welfare recipients. It becomes a way of life to not work as working is a way of life for hard workers. The law of inertia.

I favor private industry where people have to work to put food on their own tables to a large public sector.

Interesting graphic here
http://www.catamaran.co.za/wordpress...stry-20103.jpg

Is it true that South Africa went from 4 catamaran builders in 1994 to 55 catamaran builders in 2003?

[Mr Efficiency]

The meaning of "Greek Tragedy" may have to be updated in dictionaries.

[michael pierzga]

Sure...this is common sense.

BUT... How do you unravel the legacy of socialism and discard the unworkable bits without hurting the people who depend on it ?

The people most dependent on the present system are in their 50 s and have made a lifetime of payments into it. Not possible to cast them adrift, they will never be able to adjust.

Very complex problem for a democracy to solve.

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by BPL

You need to look at people as people not at the color of their skin. People need to be motivated to work and achieve goals for themselves. More education and opportunity and no handouts for lazy people, black or white.

you need to read the post's correctly. you are completely wrong. they are destroying a once wealthy country that was made that way by white south africans. i am not racist in any way . if you read wynands posts you will understand he is not either. he is stating facts and if it was white people i am sure he would say the same of them.

[BPL]

As long as strong racism exists, they are doomed.
You brand people by the color of their skin and they can't get out of that. The problem will get worse.
Mostly I favor more education and opportunities and not handouts to anyone, black or white. People need opportunity to start a business and work. They shouldn't be given handouts. If you don't work, you don't get more.

[keith66]

I know three South African families who have left & come to the UK, all say the same, that they could not compete in a country where they were rapidly becoming second class citizens & where terrified of the future for their families.
I think racism works both ways.

[BPL]

Yea, racism the other way is equally destructive to a society.
Racism is ugly.

If only 1 in 10 is a taxpayer, how can the economy work?
What does a small business pay in taxes there percentage of income?

[Wynand N]

Brendan is correct, Im not a racist but I am fanatical true to my culture and like to associate myself to things and people I can relate to that strive for the same as I do. Its not about black, white or brown or religion. Does that make me a racist, no but I am a true-born and that is a given right I have...

Racism is a fact of life everywhere in the world and it is stupid not to acknowledge that. In nature there is racism - different specie antelope will not voluntary interbreed although they are all antelope, same with birds, insect etc etc. There is even racism in religion for that matter. Obviously color would come into it when discussing people.

Unfortunately, South Africa is a very complicated country with many cultures and walked a difficult path up to 1994 when it was taken over by the current government. Again, as one poster said - it was a country that was built by whites but currently destroyed by black government and they succeeded in a very short time crippling the country socially and structurally.

Originally Posted by BPL

As long as strong racism exists, they are doomed....
Mostly I favor more education and opportunities and not handouts to anyone, black or white. ..... They shouldn't be given handouts. If you don't work, you don't get more.

In other countries it is easy to condemn racism, but in Africa where the prominent population is black, you will have an issue between them and Caucasians of any kind, fact.
As for handouts; noble idea but since Africa is known to the rest of the world it is depended on handouts. In fact, it is kind of right Africans have in their view. Quite often one must hear in the news from some African leader that they expect some help from the international community. As long as that is happening, your motion is just a pipe dream...

Originally Posted by keith66

I know three South African families who have left & come to the UK, all say the same, that they could not compete in a country where they were rapidly becoming second class citizens & where terrified of the future for their families.
I think racism works both ways.

In fact, if you are white, you are a second class citizen and treated as such. Whites do not get equal employment opportunities and the government forced down affirmative action policies on companies and to work for the state if you are white, is second to impossible.
Appointments in management in big and important companies are made on skin color and not experience and qualifications. That is one of the very reasons the country is down the drain.
What do you expect if a president of a country tells you to take a shower after sex and you should be safe from aids and also made claims that HIV does not cause aids.

Originally Posted by BPL

Yea, racism the other way is equally destructive to a society. Racism is ugly.
If only 1 in 10 is a taxpayer, how can the economy work?
What does a small business pay in taxes there percentage of income?

You are right. Why not handicap the black government with sanctions due to apartheid against white as the first world had done in the past when the blacks were oppressed??

"If only 1 in 10 is a taxpayer, how can the economy work?"

Tell that to the black ruling party that think they are doing a wonderful job building a country where soccer is king and billions spent on stadiums that now sat idle at great cost to the taxpayer.
And to boot that, of the only 1 in 10 taxpayer system currently about 70% of those taxpayers are whites supporting the ones that suppress them.
Small companies pays about 35 - 40% tax.

Finally, Africa is a showcase of how not to government a country and everywhere there are poverty, corruption, famine, no jobs, crime etc. The majority of these African countries now in a ghetto state, is the direct result where colonials were driven off and blacks to over governments.
IOW, color do play a part or actually, is a valid fact on African soil when abilities are taken into account to run countries, companies etc.

The only province in South Africa that is still worth staying in is the western Cape with Cape town the only metropolitan in a working condition and decent infrastructure. It will come to no surprise that is was ruled by the DA which is/was a prominently white party....

[pdwiley]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

Finally, Africa is a showcase of how not to government a country and everywhere there are poverty, corruption, famine, no jobs, crime etc. The majority of these African countries now in a ghetto state, is the direct result where colonials were driven off and blacks to over governments.
IOW, color do play a part or actually, is a valid fact on African soil when abilities are taken into account to run countries, companies etc.

The only province in South Africa that is still worth staying in is the western Cape with Cape town the only metropolitan in a working condition and decent infrastructure. It will come to no surprise that is was ruled by the DA which is/was a prominently white party....

Time to leave, Wynand. That's always a hard decision but if the problems are too big to solve and there's nothing you can do to solve them, go somewhere else with a work ethic and start over. New Zealand is a nice place.

I don't agree with you on a lot of the race stuff - humans are *one* species as willing & enthusiastic interbreeding clearly shows. I do think that some cultures are toxic and if they can't be changed, it's best to leave them contained to wither on the vine & die. Zimbabwe comes to mind, Mugabe inherited a country with food surpluses, exports and a 1st World infrastructure and totally trashed it, all his own work. Greece may well be another, the USSR certainly was.

If you think SA is going the same way, leave NOW while you still can.

PDW

[Mr Efficiency]

Originally Posted by pdwiley

Time to leave, Wynand. That's always a hard decision but if the problems are too big to solve and there's nothing you can do to solve them, go somewhere else with a work ethic and start over. New Zealand is a nice place.

I don't agree with you on a lot of the race stuff - humans are *one* species as willing & enthusiastic interbreeding clearly shows. I do think that some cultures are toxic and if they can't be changed, it's best to leave them contained to wither on the vine & die. Zimbabwe comes to mind, Mugabe inherited a country with food surpluses, exports and a 1st World infrastructure and totally trashed it, all his own work. Greece may well be another, the USSR certainly was.

If you think SA is going the same way, leave NOW while you still can.

PDW

Good point made here I think, it is the widely different cultures rather than the ethnicity that matters, consider the wide difference in "culture" between outlaw bikie gangs and the members of volunteer community service groups, same ethnicity but chalk and cheese. Mixing my metaphors, but like oil and water they won't want to mix.

[eyschulman]

Revolution which boots a ruleing class out is often very disruptive and when mixed with economic- class -religious-ethnic or race conflict it is devistating. This is human history recycling as it has as long as there is records and before. It is part of our basic nature and has not really changed much. The methods and weapons may have changed but not the underlying causes or end results. First there are way too many people and secound too many of them are still basicly and deep down primitive. You know like automatic guns and nukes in the hands of cave man mentality. The reasonable people (not nec. the right wingers) are few in number and have little leverage. All this is not an individual country problem it is world wide.