Europe more dangerouse than USA? (gunshots vs terror threat)

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by wardd

the palistinians were there first

You're joking, I hope.....

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by wardd

if only the world worked the way we want, things would be so simple
there is something you need to know

truth is relational not absolute

Truth is certainly not just whatever you want to make it.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by wardd

most people assume the current day palistinians came lately to the place

the current palistinians and native jews belong to the same ethnic group, semites

it's the european jews that came after ww2 that are to late commers

one in 5 isreali citizens is a palistinian moslem and isreal has control of the west bank and gaza with a population approaching isreal itself and increasing

in a while isreal is going to be in the untenable position of having control of a population larger than it's own

seems like a recipe for disaster to me

Many of the Palestinians are descended from Arabs who moved into the area after Zionist European Jews immigrated in the 1800's, bought clear title to large tracts of worthless land, and started reclaiming it.

How do you decide whether someone's family has been there long enough to call it home? Do they have to be 2nd generation, 3d generation, 4th generation or....

Or are you just arbitrarily picking the end of WW2 as the cut-off date, and saying that no one who immigrated after that has a right to be there, and neither do their children and grandchildren?

[wardd]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Truth is certainly not just whatever you want to make it.

you're missing the concept

truth relates to something

[wardd]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Many of the Palestinians are descended from Arabs who moved into the area after Zionist European Jews immigrated in the 1800's, bought clear title to large tracts of worthless land, and started reclaiming it.

How do you decide whether someone's family has been there long enough to call it home? Do they have to be 2nd generation, 3d generation, 4th generation or....

Or are you just arbitrarily picking the end of WW2 as the cut-off date, and saying that no one who immigrated after that has a right to be there, and neither do their children and grandchildren?

isreal is a created state , created on land by settlers from someplace else and displaced the original inhabitants

the point is you can't say a parcel of land belongs to someone because 2000 or so years ago it belonged to a people that called themselves jews

i wander who is genetically closer to the jews of 2000 years ago, which by the way took the land from someone else generations earlier

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by wardd

isreal is a created state , created on land by settlers from someplace else and displaced the original inhabitants

the point is you can't say a parcel of land belongs to someone because 2000 or so years ago it belonged to a people that called themselves jews

i wander who is genetically closer to the jews of 2000 years ago, which by the way took the land from someone else generations earlier

You're rewriting history. There were Jews who never left Israel, and Palestinians who were Johnny-come-lately's.

And if you keep carrying water for that argument, everyone is going to have to pack up and leave North America and South America to the original inhabitants.

But tell me: which aborigines will you give the Americas back to? Indian tribes and nations had been moving around, fighting wars and displacing each other for thousands of years before European settlers ever showed up, and they continued doing so for quite a while after the whites got there....

There's actually an answer to your question, by the way: most European Jews are indeed descended from the original Jews, according to recent DNA studies.

That blows a hole in the waterline of a popular alternate theory: that modern-day Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the peoples of the Khazar Kingdom (the 'Jewish Empire') -- which flourished for several hundred years as a buffer state between the Byzantine Empire and the Muslim world, after its rulers converted to Judaism and made it the kingdom's official religion. All indications are that the descendants of the Khzars are mostly still there, but they're Muslims now.

But getting back to the point, what is your point? Are you just browsing an interesting bit of history, or are you claiming the Palestinians have more right to Israel than the Israelis do?

[wardd]

Originally Posted by troy2000

You're rewriting history. There were Jews who never left Israel, and Palestinians who were Johnny-come-lately's.

And if you keep carrying water for that argument, everyone is going to have to pack up and leave North America and South America to the original inhabitants.

But tell me: which aborigines will you give the Americas back to? Indian tribes and nations had been moving around, fighting wars and displacing each other for thousands of years before European settlers ever showed up, and they continued doing so for quite a while after the whites got there....

There's actually an answer to your question, by the way: most European Jews are indeed descended from the original Jews, according to recent DNA studies.

That blows a hole in the waterline of a popular alternate theory: that modern-day Jews descended from the peoples of the Khazar Kingdom (the 'Jewish Empire') -- which flourished for several hundred years as a buffer state between the Byzantine Empire and the Muslim world, after its rulers converted and made Judaism the official religion. All indications are that the descendants of the Khzars are still there; they're Muslims now.

But getting back to the point, what is your point? Are you just browsing an interesting bit of history, or are you claiming the Palestinians have more right to Israel than the Israelis do?

my point is no one has clear title to the land legally or historically and no one has the right to dispose anyone else

if things go as they are a one state solution is inevitable

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by wardd

my point is no one has clear title to the land legally or historically and no one has the right to dispose anyone else

if things go as they are a one state solution is inevitable

That's utter nonsense. At some point, you have to concede that someone has title to the land, just as it's pretty well settled that I have a recognized deed for my land. If someone shows up on my doorstep and orders me out, on the grounds that in his opinion I don't have clear legal or historical title and his family used to have a house there, he'll be lucky to leave under his own power.

As far as not 'disposing' people goes -- why don't you try explaining that one to the Arabs who have sworn to drive the Jews into the sea? You think they'll check back first to see who never left; who's been there since the 1800's on land that was bought and paid for; and who didn't show up until after WWII?

You're too busy deploring what the Jews are doing, and glossing over what the Palestinians are doing, in my opinion. But tell me: what's your solution? What would you do, if they put you in charge of straightening out the mess?

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by WickedGood

The Israel People should just throw the bums out and let them know that every time one of them shoots a rocket into town that they will loose an entire town in return.
An Aye' for an Aye'





I used to think that Nobel Prize was Dynomite.

However now I know its just a worthless trincket that they hand out to every begger that wants one.

I would use the paper to lite my woodstove and melt it down into somthing that would have value. Might make a dandy fishing sinker.

Talk about a non sequitur.... what the heck does that have to do with anything we've been talking about? Somehow, I doubt you'll ever be faced with the problem of what to do with a Nobel Prize....

[wardd]

Originally Posted by troy2000

That's utter nonsense. At some point, you have to concede that someone has title to the land, just as it's pretty well settled that I have a recognized deed for my land. If someone shows up on my doorstep and orders me out, on the grounds that in his opinion I don't have clear legal or historical title and his family used to have a house there, he'll be lucky to leave under his own power.

As far as not 'disposing' people goes -- why don't you try explaining that one to the Arabs who have sworn to drive the Jews into the sea? You think they'll check back first to see who never left; who's been there since the 1800's on land that was bought and paid for; and who didn't show up until after WWII?

You're too busy deploring what the Jews are doing, and glossing over what the Palestinians are doing, in my opinion. But tell me: what's your solution? What would you do, if they put you in charge of straightening out the mess?

I'm not deploring anyone

I'm not siding when both may have a claim

as for legalities, international law doesn't permit annexation of land gained by military means

by law isreal has to give back the land it has occupied sense 1967

and probably back to the original un partition

[Raggi_Thor]

Originally Posted by mark775

"What if that innocent civilian is a little girl in Gaza, just for example?" - The Israelis are fighting for their lives. You make me sick in your smugness. What a vile creature you are.

No need for rudeness.
Does terror like bombs and missiles from Palestinian extremists give Israeli soldiers the right to kill civilians in Gaza?, even children?

[Raggi_Thor]

We are way off topic as usual, but, the other night we saw a movie about Moses (same actor as Gandhi btw), and in the movie it is clear that Canaan was not inhabited at all, but Joshua & Co had to fight their way in, remember Jericho? So, the discussion of who where first is completely fruitless.

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by wardd

you're missing the concept

truth relates to something

Truth doesn't relate to your recent postings on this thread.

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by troy2000

That's utter nonsense. At some point, you have to concede that someone has title to the land, just as it's pretty well settled that I have a recognized deed for my land. If someone shows up on my doorstep and orders me out, on the grounds that in his opinion I don't have clear legal or historical title and his family used to have a house there, he'll be lucky to leave under his own power.

As far as not 'disposing' people goes -- why don't you try explaining that one to the Arabs who have sworn to drive the Jews into the sea? You think they'll check back first to see who never left; who's been there since the 1800's on land that was bought and paid for; and who didn't show up until after WWII?

You're too busy deploring what the Jews are doing, and glossing over what the Palestinians are doing, in my opinion. But tell me: what's your solution? What would you do, if they put you in charge of straightening out the mess?

There were also Jews in Mecca before their heads got sawn off.