A delicate question

[Bergalia]

Australia's first submarine which was lost during the outbreak of World War I might have been found off Papua New Guinea.



Attempts are currently underway to raise the wreck of the AE1, what is claimed to be Australia's first submarine.

The 60-metre sub and its entire crew disappeared during a routine mission in 1914, and was last seen near the Duke of York Islands in East New Britain. But two years ago sonar detectors on board Australian Navy ship HMAS Benalla detected an object a similar shape and size to that of the AE1 sub, near Rabaul.

Further investigations proved the speculation correct and efforts are now underway to raise the wreck.

The delicate question I pose is wether it should be left at rest along with its crew and respected as with similar 'marine wargraves' - Sullum Voe in the Orkneys being a prime example. Or do we treat the resting place of these men as we would an archeological dig (objects of curiousity) as with long-barrows or tombs of ancient Eygypt.

[longliner45]

no ,,its time to give the sailers a proper funeral and resting place,,and put the artifact in a museam,,,restored,...and yes we have the arizona and the monitor,,,the crew of the Arizona was given a naval burial at sea ,and a monument was made to those brave man,,the monitor itself was put at the mariners museam,and the crew given a proper navel burial,,,,and next of kin ,,notified,longliner

[charmc]

No problem with raising a warship so long as it is done with all proper honors to the dead. The key, IMHO, lies in honoring the sacrifice of courageous warriors. Most recently here in the US, the Hunley, believed to carry out the world's first successful undersea combat attack, was raised. The remains of the crew on board were identified, families notified, and they were buried with full military honors. I think that's the right thing.

[StianM]

The marine museum is Sidney is a good one and some stuff from that sub would not make it worse.

When I die I would not mind people diging me up a few times becuse I'm dead so I wont care, But I gues there si people more spiritual minded than myself. Why should we not dig them up since there seam to be no problem putting the old Egypt kings and Ozy the iceman on display, I doubt there is annyone alive today remembering those seamen.

[Frosty]

To me the people inside arnet people any more they are deceased.

Thier remains should be respectfully laid to rest, with appropriate honours from the government.

The sub however needs as much respect if not more. This is a place of death where very brave men gave thier lives fighting for something they believd in.

If the sub will be used for a childrens attraction in a theme park then leave her be at the bottom of the sea.

If it will be apprecited as a place of death and respected as such then it too can be placed in a suitable building.

[westlawn5554X]

second that in motion... you're sooo cute and nicie jack

[charmc]

Originally Posted by jack frost

To me the people inside arnet people any more they are deceased.

Thier remains should be respectfully laid to rest, with appropriate honours from the government.

The sub however needs as much respect if not more. This is a place of death where very brave men gave thier lives fighting for something they believd in.

If the sub will be used for a childrens attraction in a theme park then leave her be at the bottom of the sea.

If it will be apprecited as a place of death and respected as such then it too can be placed in a suitable building.

Aaaaaaah! The professionally cynical curmudgeon shows his true colors at last.

Seriously, that was well said, jack.

(Don't worry, I won't tell Walrus you're really a good guy)

leave her down IMO,
we can all silently appreciate their loss, but here war or the aftermath of it, is oft glorified here, they rabbit on and on My old Pa was 6 years away WW2 he always said "why the hell don't we forget it" it took him away from Mum all that time, and to go march every year, to him, was a bloody joke
i f it was was one of my rels, I would say leave him be
Whose waters is she in, I,ll bet if it was in our waters and a German or Jap, there would be a 30 year commission of enquiry before we let "em in our waters"
i think its kinds noble to be entombed in a ship, leave em be

[timgoz]

They should ask the sailors surviving family & decendants. Personally I'd leave her at rest.

Tim

[safewalrus]

there's a lot of merit in both sides of the argument! do we leave her or raise her and give the crew a decent burial?

My view? If theres any close relatives (sons or daughters who remember dad) still alive she should be left, as is, until they are gone - or an attempt made to find out how she went before raising her! We don't know how they went! If that is not the case raise her then find out what happened and take it from there! Decent burial or slip her back beneath the waves, as a 'war grave'! But whatever it must be done quietly and with no press until after wards! Bit of decorum to start with - if that can't be done , leave her be!

[Guillermo]

Just a bit off topic, and this said with all respect, I wonder why we have to treat navy people who died at sea with more honours than, let's say, fishermen who also died at sea. Why armies' or navies' people deserve more honours than any other men or women who die, whatever the reason, in the everyday's battle to feed and/or grow up their families and collaborate to build up a better society?
I have never understood this.

[MikeJohns]

Yes it is tricky

Thinking about it; if I was asked if it was me dead and entombed I would say please recover the vessel and tell the tale. I know other people would say leave them. There was a strong view in Christian society that mortal remains should remain undisturbed for the resurrection of the flesh.

Unfortunantely after that length of time all our remains completely de-mineralize in the sea water. The men’s remains have long since mixed with the ocean and dissipate with the first breach of the hull.
Ultimately the ocean disturbs all wrecks, it is only recent ones that have the crews remains aboard unless you take a spiritual view.

But then if the spirits remained with the wreck wouldn't it be better to have it back on dry land ???

The Sydney harbor raid WW2 Japanese midget sub was just found after 60 odd years off a nearby surf beach. Examination of the vessels exits has told the tale that the crew died within but it is conjecture since their remains have long since gone. We are sending some sand from within the breached hull to Japan so they can bury it. All symbolic and very emotional but important in that the family gets what the psychologists call "closure" knowing what happened is valuable to surviving relatives. Like exhuming mass graves.

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Just a bit off topic, and this said with all respect, I wonder why we have to treat navy people who died at sea with more honours than, let's say, fishermen who also died at sea. Why armies' or navies' people deserve more honours than any other men or women who die, whatever the reason, in the everyday's battle to feed and/or grow up their families and collaborate to build up a better society?
I have never understood this.

An excellent point Guillermo. While there are of course memorials raised to those lost ‘souls’ who 'served' in the merchant marine - fisherfolk included, as you suggest few 'annual' ceremonies dripping pomp and circumstance - pipes, drums, reversed rifles and a forest of wreathes - include those who served ‘out of uniform.’

It would be nice to believe that the annual services of remembrace are held to acknowledge the ‘sacrifice’ made by the fallen military, navies and airforces - young men and women despatched to ‘correct’ the diplomatic blunders committed by past political animals. That in ‘honouring ‘ the dead we are emphasising that their deaths were ‘not in vain.’

Unfortunately this is seldom true. More often than not it is a thinly veiled media spectacular redolent with hypocrisy. True, for some there is a deep sense of regret at the waste; for others it is simply a ‘custom,’ a day to wear some flimsy token of ‘respect,’ - often a poppy whose symbolism is long since lost; and for the politicians (few who have military experience) it is essentially the chance of a ‘photo opportunity.’

Meanwhile the parents, widows, children and siblings of those ‘lost at sea’ performing ‘unremarkable’ yet necessary tasks for the continued welfare of their nations will grieve silently, privately and in their hearts, but receive little public recognition. It is, after all - just part of the job.

[timgoz]

I think many fishermen would prefer low-key to elaborate. Death is an ever present possibility and to much emphasis on past loss brings to mind what may come.

As to things such as Memorial Day in the US. We have thousands of relatively small intimate cerimonies. They are not for polititians and recieve minimal media coverage. They are for what they should be.

Tim

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by timgoz

....In the US. We have thousands of relatively small intimate cerimonies. They are not for polititians and recieve minimal media coverage. They are for what they should be.Tim

Tim, I was speaking from the heart. I am an ex-fisherman, from a small island community which contained not a single family which had not been touched at some time by the loss at sea of a father, son or kin. The only 'memorial' was an imported 'government-issue' slab of sandstone (a mineral foreign to the island) for victims of a private aircraft which had crashed whilst transporting a handful of bureacrats enroute for Iceland in 1952.

But my experience is of 'official' ceremonies which annually occur in the UK and here in Australia. In my small corner of New South Wales we 'celebrate' Anzac Day in many of the small settlements. On that day, starting at dawn and ending in the late afternoon our local Federal politician wears himself to a frazzle attempting to appear at every event. And the following week the local paper has a page of pictures devoted to 'The Hon X' with his head bowed respectfully at up to a dozen local 'intimate' gatherings.